125: Sensuality, Creativity & Pole Dancing with Selene Ashé

That permission field to look weird, look silly, look sexy that you brought to my life was the beginning of an entire chapter for me. There is something about energy that you can receive from seeing people witnessing you in such a vulnerable space that it just feels so magical. The female gaze in this arena is some kind of a homecoming to the gifts of our sensuality, of our creativity as women. I was very surprised with the attention that came from dancing. From there, slowly, creativity leaked in so many other ways. The same thing happened with the other kind of art that I do with my blood, my menstrual blood. One day, I started painting with it. It pull is such a unique spiritual technology right now for women today because it invites the adult woman and the little girl and they have this experience together. So I'm calling all of my overachieving, under-receiving ladies who've been giving it their all, girlbossing, wifing, mothering, and somehow, instead of feeling happy, content, fulfilled, and grateful, feel bitter, overwhelmed, numb, and resentful. So I'd love to give you some of my hot takes and quick tips to end this overwhelm, to shift your nervous system into a state of receiving so that you can have and hold more and so that you can handle what comes at you with more grace and ease and relaxation. Because a relaxed woman is a powerful woman. So I'd love to invite you to exhale my free masterclass where I will share reframes to disrupt your burnout patterns. I'll be offering my signature solution as well as a free gift. So register at kellybroganmd.com forward slash exhale or at the link in show notes. I'll see you there, beauty. Hi, and welcome back to Reclamation Radio. I am Dr. Kelly Brogan. And today I have on my dear friend, my personal pole dance teacher and recent author, Wendy Diaz, who goes by the pen name Celine Asche, to talk about the pole dance journey and also her recent work, which is about erotic self-expression. I refer to it as in part memoir and also erotic nonfiction. So we get into it. We talk about the female versus the male gaze when it comes to dance and sensual expression. We talk about the role of erotic nonfiction or even fiction in the landscape of female sexuality today. So think Fifty Shades of Grey. What else is there? and we talk about the spectrum from sensuality to sexuality and what it is to develop a shame-free relationship to that energy as a woman. Enjoy. Welcome, Celine slash Wendy, to the show. I'm so excited to chat with you today. Me too. Thank you for having me. Finally made this work. It's so good. What a journey. What a journey we have been on, I feel like, you know, in tandem. And there's been so much overlap. I want to talk about so many things with you. And it is funny to be even talking to you about these things, because usually when we're together, you're moving around. You're dancing. There's, you know, not so much the narrative happening. and I've told this story. I told it at Audacious Embodiment, my event that you were featured in and probably on Instagram live together. And I want to tell it again because the role that you have played in my journey has been very specific and very sacred and very precious to me. And I think it exemplifies so much of what you do for women in general. I know that I'm not alone in having experienced your influence and your impact in this way. I hired you as my first pole dance teacher when I took a class with my girlfriend Ayla. We went to a class together. We were both in a very charnel ground in our respective lives at the time, and we decided to go to a class. I couldn't even lift my body weight off the ground because I'd only ever done cardio dance. I had no muscle tone or anything to speak of. And still something about that class, just it bit, right? So I started my journey that day and I knew that I needed my own. I love having mentors. I love having personal one-on-one experiences. It's been how I expand every single time in every arena. So I knew that I needed a teacher. Our mutual friend, Jamie, told me about you. And within days I was at your house. And I remember, I don't know if it was the first session we had together, but it was certainly like one of the early ones because I was just sort of getting to know you and your vibe and pole and just this whole world. And I remember that you just said, go ahead and stand up and walk around the pole sensually. If I could have fallen into a black hole in the floor in that moment, I would have taken the leap not knowing what was on the other side. Because the waves of shame that I was doing everything in my social power to suppress in that moment were so intense and have only ever been matched when I was encouraged to do something similar singing. So I had one of my first voice lessons and the woman was like, so I'm going to set a timer and you just, you know, you just sing. I was like, um, is there an escape hatch? This is not for me. And I don't know what I actually ended up doing. I mean, I must have stood up and walked around in all sorts. All of my parts were protesting with different flavors of protest. And it was probably within seconds that I realized like, it's okay. Oh my gotta make someone cry just even thinking about it like it's okay because this she's safe like this is a safe woman and it this is a um a rewiring of the sister wound which i talk about as a translation of the mother wound right it's a rewiring this woman wants to support my expression and it sounds really trite but i remember it was around that time too i had just decided to open up like a TikTok account after being, you know, a good conspiracy theorist who was protesting TikTok, I decided to get on it. And you gave me like all of these tips, right? Like you were like, oh, put a, you know, trending song behind it where we gave all these tips. And pretty much what I was putting on there at the time was like probably choreographies you taught me or like, you know, little videos that we took together. And I say this to demonstrate that you are a girl's girl, right? Like you're a woman's woman. You are from the beginning of our relationship, someone that I feel wants to see me shine, even if it's doing as if like the same things, right, that you're doing. And that permission field to look weird, look silly, look sexy, look extraordinary, look gorgeous. The huge permission field that you brought to my life in these simple, little mundane ways was the beginning of an entire chapter for me. And you continue to do that. So we'll talk today about your first book, Diary of a Bad Bitch, that you published that is also a huge permission field expander for women. I would describe it as part memoir and part erotic nonfiction, right? So in so many ways, what you choose to, and we were talking about this before we went on camera, with your pen name. What you choose to share is because of who you are is something that allows women to at least just try it on, right? Without the reflexive feeling of competitive, territorial judgment, honestly. Because in this journey you've watched me walk, I've come to the conclusion that if women could work with the impulse to tell other women how to be women, right? And really relax that projection field. It would just be so much more fun to be alive. And the way that you do that is just, it's so powerful in your sensuality and your creativity and in your, I would say like allegiance and dedication to your journey, wherever it takes you. Right. And I've watched you take those steps, this one after another after another. So I want to start by just talking about self-expression because you've described yourself, I think this is a very apt description, as a multi-passionate woman. I mean, I can open up Instagram and at any given time, I could see twirling, fire sticks, twerking, climbing a pole. I mean, I still remember the first time I watched a video of you on the pole and you had pink heels on and a pink outfit on. And you were probably doing a one-armed walk or something, just a simple move, but you literally looked like you were floating, floating in air. It seemed impossible, according to my understanding of the physical universe. And this is how you play. I mean, you just do these extraordinary feats of femininity and sensuality. And you just, the play energy is so contagious. So I know that in your multi-passionate journey, you have developed a strong relationship, an alliance with your creativity and your self-expression. So So I'd love to just, yeah, sort of take the tour of what self-expression has looked like for you over the course of your becoming, you know, up until this point and how you relate to it. Like, what is the role of your self-expression in your daily life? Like, is it just, it's not a job. I know that. So it's like, how does it even fit in? How has it looked over the years? And how have you learned to prioritize that? Because that's what I see is that you're somebody who prioritizes your self-expression. Yeah, I definitely do now. It wasn't something I was at some point disconnected from it. You know, being an immigrant, I moved here when I was 14 and I went to school, high school. I went straight to high school. And I remember my goal was always to blend in, learn English. Not sound like a Cuban. No offense. Now I love my Cuban roots, but like not sound like a Cuban. Do well academically, which fucked me over in so many ways. Yes. We're in your pockets. And my focus went into making money, going to school. And I remember when I was going to school, I was just so frustrated in college. and I was working full time, going to school full time. And I felt my body. I was depressed. I was like, this is not working out for me. You know, being an immigrant, that's what you think you should do. Coming to a new country, you got to work and study and learn. And that was the first time that I honored my needs and I saw my energy just being leaked in so many ways. And I started learning how to tattoo eyebrows. And I said, you never know, maybe this whole brow tattooing thing is going to get me somewhere. And from eyebrows, I learned how to tattoo lips and eyeliner. And then I just I think that was my first time being really creative. I was tattooing faces. And that was really the only way that I was being creative. I was always a dancer, but it was more like a workout, you know, like reggaeton just for the cardio, maybe a little bit of twerking. Then pole came into my life and it just opened up the floodgates to a whole new life of creativity. So from pole, I started getting all my heels and like all these different outfits. And I started organizing women groups because I saw pole as such a powerful tool of embodiment. I was in a relationship that didn't really celebrate my inner attention whore, as I call it, in parts work. So I was very surprised with the attention that came from dancing. You know you know you could dance in your room for yourself but there a part of me that really wanted to put myself out there as a dancer and get that attention And from there slowly creativity leaked in so many other ways One day I was having an experience with a lover of mine and he took a picture of me that I loved so much that I said, I want to draw this. And that's this drawing back here that I did. It's actually in my book somewhere. And then it's just been so amazing to discover that if I just allow myself to try it, I may actually be good at it, you know, but so many times we're just like, oh, drawing. Oh, I can't even pick up a pen. I can't even pick up a pencil. I can't. Yeah, I didn't either. But guess what? I sat down and I erased more than I drew. But eventually I got to this. And then the same thing happened with the other kind of art that I do that's like with my blood, you know, my menstrual blood. One day I collected it and I started painting with it. And then I think it's just about if the curiosity is there, try it. It may just work out. And that's what's been working out for me, at least. I, at least in the language of my last book, Reclaim Woman, I talk about it as a little yes, right? That the most important thing for us to learn as women is to honor our no and to no longer shrink, settle and small ourselves in service of codependent dynamics, right? However, what arises in the wake of that is the yes, is the relationship with these creative impulses that can sometimes seem like they meet a chorus of rejection the moment they come up. Right. So like I remember the first time I was like, I want to I want to go to a partner salsa class. And immediately there were like 14 voices in my head. Like, are you kidding? You live in Miami. It's all Latina women. They're going to all be expert. There's not even going to be a beginner, you know, version of it. You're going to look like all of this. Right. So to follow these little impulses to sing, to dance, to create, to roller skate, right, to express in ways that are not attached to any sort of productive achievement oriented outcome. And that you may be good at, you may also suck. I mean, almost all of my creative expression, what I consider creative expression outside of my work, I'm pretty mid, you know, like if not basic. I mean, I've been dancing pole for a couple years now, and I'm still a beginner. and I am 1000% happy with that. Like there's just a different metric of fulfillment and I think that it's really hard to even tap into that. And I will say that at least from my vantage point, you talk about your inner attention whore, you are a performer, right? Like to me, you have this natively in your body. You are a performer and when you perform, I would say especially on the poll, you offer a gift to everyone watching. And again, I'll speak from a woman's perspective, specifically to women. And this is one of the most surprising aspects of poll, I think, for a lot of quick judging outsiders, is that much of the time we are dancing to put our inner child on stage, right? At least, right? It's just sort of like The costume, the music, you know, if you're making a little video out of it, that itself becomes a piece of art. Right. And for the female gaze. Right. So the most devastating aspects of my journey initially, which, of course, led to what I want to talk about with you more, which is this villain crown practice. Right. What was the rejection, judgment, condemnation I received from women? Absolutely devastating for me when I chose to share my full journey publicly. And the most affirming. These days, if I walk around and somebody recognizes me in public, there are probably two things that can bring me to tears instantly. One is if they tell me that I played a role in saving their marriage, because that's more commonly recently feedback that I get. And of course, that's like a fresh wound for me, right? In so many ways. The other is that I inspired their pole journey. That is so fulfilling, deeply fulfilling to me. Why? Because the female gaze in this arena is some kind of a homecoming to the gifts of our sensuality, of our creativity as women. And I know that when you dance, you give that gift. First of all, you've certainly given it to me and you give it to other women. It's inspiration. It's aspiration, right? Like to see you move with such fluidity and grace. It's a new door, you know, that that opens and the way that you are in your body so effortlessly. Right. So for you to be told what you told me would have been no thing, right? You like to get up and walk centrally around the pole. You can probably literally do that in your sleep. But for a woman who is so much more locked up and rigid and inhibited in the ways that I was and probably in many ways still am, that is an initiation, right? And to have you as a midwife for that process is such a gift. So see what you think, like about the female versus the male gaze when it comes to pole and about the role of performing, right? Like why do so many of us who dance video ourselves and share it? Is it just because women natively love attention and that's part of how we are even biologically perhaps wired? Or is it just a stage that we go through? Or how do you conceive of like the sharing of the embodiment journey, especially when it comes to pole? You mentioned something about the inner girl, the inner child that really spoke to me, especially lately from my last cabaret that just happened four days ago. I went on stage and I shared a story about how ever since I was a little girl, when I learned the definition of the word diva, I immediately knew that that's it. I found it. That's my life's purpose. I am a diva. Forget about everything else. And then I got distracted, you know, with the stories that I said, school, everything being an immigrant and all that stuff. And the other night, and I told the story on stage, I was singing my favorite song from my favorite artist and it felt so good on my throat. I was putting on a show in my room by myself, just putting a show for my dogs. And I just thought, I want to sing. I want to sing live. I want to perform this exact song this exact same way for a group of people. And then so many parts of me were like, no, we don't sing. We're not singers. Leave that to the professionals. you dance just shake some ass and dance and let's say please don't sing and I paid attention to this little voice in me and I said I see that it's important for you to put quality work out there I see that it I see that you care that we put on a good show and that everyone that's performing knows what they're doing and Conscious Cabaret although we do have a lot of really amazing performers, it's not about the quality of their moves, how flexible they are, how they could hit their notes. It's about the vulnerability behind it. So if we tell a story about how scary it is for us to sing and then we do it, even if it's not perfect, the seed of it is that we're putting something raw out there. And then I was telling this little part of me, I see that you're scared. We're going to do a scare. We're going to do it together. We're going to take some singing lessons. I promise you that we're going to take some singing lessons. We're going to make sure that we test the audio. You know, we're going to make sure. And then this part is like, yeah, OK, OK, fine. OK, we're going to do it. I love you so much. I love you, too. And yeah, so that was me nurturing that little scared part that is terrified that, you know, be so scared so that my inner diva could be on stage because, yeah, I could dance for myself. I could sing for myself in my room. But there is something about energy that you can receive from seeing people witnessing you in such a vulnerable space, you know, that it just feels so magical. And then receiving the feedback afterwards. And just like you have heard so many people say how much I've inspired them, you know, after doing something like that. And then even when they tell me, you know, a lot of times I think I have to get it all figured out, but I see you doing things even without having it all figured out and it works out. And that's what I have to say about. Yeah, that's the permission field expansion. So if you're enjoying this episode, I want to extend a $300 gift to you so that you can start your Juvent journey. Head to Juvent.com forward slash Kelly Brogan. The code is Kelly 300 to use at checkout. So I believe that movement is medicine. And even though I prioritize exercise and dance, I am definitely not walking five miles a day barefoot to get the micro impact that my biology is expecting. Unlike vibration plates, Juvent's micro impact platform is an expertly calibrated and personalized technology with data behind their claims around enhancing athletic performance, musculoskeletal support and a host of benefits related to lymphatics and fascia. When you invest in one for your family, you can put it in the living room and hop on it for 10 to 20 minutes a day, knowing that you're supporting your longevity and youthful body in ways that are proven. Again, that's Juvent.com forward slash Kelly Brogan. The code is Kelly 300 for $300 off at checkout. Your future body will thank you. And if you don't completely love it after six weeks, you can return it for a full refund. No questions asked. Enjoy. You know, I've explored a lot this very narrow bandwidth that a lot of us exist in as women between invisibility and fame, right? Where the two ends of the pole are equally excruciating, right? To feel invisible, right? Like there is no gaze to be felt is as excruciating as hundreds of thousands of eyes on us. And so we sort of squish ourselves into this bandwidth where we don't totally feel seen and we also feel overly exposed, overly vulnerable often. And we're sort of like just trying to avoid touching either of those sense points. And these little experiences of permission to do it weird, do it wrong, do it half-baked, do it not as an expert, explore, play. They sort of compound so that the more that you have of them, the more you can have, right, in different arenas. And I think that pole is such a unique spiritual technology, really, right now for women today, because it invites that the adult woman and the little girl and they have this experience together. You know, I did a parts work session. I remember there was this part of me and the session, of course, was about like something totally unrelated to dance or anything else. But in this session, I met this part and she was, I don't know, maybe six or something. and she had her little, you know, like those ballet uniform, like costumes, right? Where there's like sequins and, you know, spandex and like tulle or whatever. So she's got one of those costumes on and she comes out in the room expecting to see all of the people in the room ready for her. And she comes into the room. And so I grew up with Italians, plastic on the couches. Okay. So there's plastic. That's not a thing in Cuba. Yeah. The couches all have plastic covers. Yeah. This is Queens, New York. So anyway, so there's all plastic on all the furniture and literally nobody's there and the lights are out. And here I am with my ready, with my dance and my outfit and nobody's there. Okay. So that experience of my little girl getting to dress up in costumes, pick whatever music, like put on a little show is fulfilled when it's videoed. Also, this is how we watch ourselves as dancers. It's like when you can look back at a video, you can see, oh, maybe there was something with my grip or maybe there was something that I could have shifted or changed to make that more accessible anyway. It also is like a technical tool. But then there's also the adult woman who is present saying, you know, I am invoking my athleticism because pole is, as far as I can tell, one of the few examples where you need as much strength as you do grace. Right It equal parts masculine structured athleticism and the fluidity and ease and liquid movement of honey right So it's both of those. And that marriage is orchestrated necessarily by an adult energy, right? So it's this very, very unique embodiment tool. And I know for you, like I still probably am not at this place where I can just hop on the pole and see what comes out. But I know for you, that's pretty much exclusively how you relate to it, right? You set the conditions and then you see what happens. And maybe you can talk about even in your daily life, what that looks like. What does a woman who's totally new to playing around in this way, how would she set the conditions? this is by the way all assuming you have a pole in your house which you will if you even take like two classes you're gonna have a pole in your house in your living room so like how would she set the conditions to just sort of see what comes out right so whether that's singing or or dancing most of us like instruction right we're in that more infantilized place where i want to know what the choreography is i want to know exactly what i do when my right foot goes here and my left foot goes here or how do I do the scale, you know, properly with my voice or whatever. But what I see in you is that you trust your creativity enough that you set the conditions and you just see what comes out. Right. So what does that even look like for you? I feel that learning choreos are great and learning moves are great. But once you have like a set of moves that you already know how to do that comes natural. If you just allow yourself to get out of your head a little bit and slowly let the momentum take you, that's what I work with. I work with momentum. So if I'm walking, sometimes I would walk around the pole and then hold on to the pole really hard and then just let my body fall. And if the pole is spinning, it's going to take you somewhere. And if it's going to take you to the right, your body is naturally going to fall in a way that what happens? It may look weird. That's OK. But what happens if I just put my foot here and turn upside down? Or, you know, like if you just really tap into your heart and your body and see what feels good as opposed to what looks good or whatever you've been told is the next step. that's that's what works for me as far as setting up the space after you buy your pole because you will do that after you take one class I did I sure did that I got home from my first class and I order a pole that arrived on my birthday having the space around it make sure that there's enough space around it so that you're not that's why I don't have a pole here because I don't have a lot of space around it to really let go I would be hitting everything because I'm not really paying attention. I would just be hitting everything. For me, it's important that the floor is clean because I'm going to be rolling all over the floor, that I have my grip. Those are the logistic things that you want to make sure that you have in place. But really, the most important one is the music that's playing. Make sure that it's the music that is speaking to something that's very much alive in the moment. Sometimes I would dance to the same song for a whole hour. Totally. Yes, I've done the same. That's the music that is really speaking to me in the moment. So your dance journey, because I remember being totally shocked when I started taking classes with you, lessons with you, that you were not very many years into a bull journey. I mean, you were, I don't know, what, like two years ahead of me or something like that. And it's just so natural for you, this form of expression. I also know that it fed into an erotic reclamation, if we want to call it that. That is not uncommon, right? So what a lot of women are exploring, it's also the classic thing like breakup experience that women have. they have a big breakup, they find the pole, and then they find themselves in all shades of dark feminine expression and exploring. They got the hooker boots on, like the G-string or whatever. And we're just trying on all of these different flavors, many of which may not have been welcome in a more constricting relationship, let's say. And many of which may just be a phase of exploration, right? Like I know for me, exploring all of these different archetypes, like pole has allowed me again, because of costumes and dress and because of music, because of my own energy has allowed me to, to try on so many flavors of feminine that I can't imagine where else I would be able to go from like, you know, puritanical ballerina energy. all the way to, you know, what is dubbed like the horror archetype, let's say, in our modern culture and everything in between. And in trying all those on, I get to touch into these collectively held and also individually unexpressed dimensions of woman. And then I, you know, I move on with my life, right? It's like you tap in and then you continue on in your journey. So the erotic reclamation though, the experience of our own sexual energy as an extension of sensuality, right? So sexual energy being eros, being vital force, being this God channel that we are charged with stewarding, right? It's a journey. It is, you could argue, the nature of embodiment, to learn how to work with sexual energy, to open it, to close it, to contain it in intentional ways. I know that that led to an exploration in terms of your embodied relationships that you document in your book. I mean, this book, it's the most courageous, and I don't use that word lightly, it's the most courageous example of disclosure when it comes to the very vulnerable spaces of sexual exploration. And you are a woman who is learning how to, like all of us, trust yourself, stay with yourself, listen to yourself. And I know that you regard sexuality as sacred, right? And so you take us on this multi-year journey, this magic carpet ride of what it looks like in these different dynamics with a handful of partners that you were in dynamic with. And it's like in reading it, because I had the pleasure of reading an advanced copy, it's like in reading it, you get to be in the journey with you. It's just a fly on the wall experience of some of these rather envelope-pushing, audacious moments, but that are also so pure is the word I want to use, so pure in their intention. And it's like you could feel the desire that you have as a woman to just experience the fullness of what it is to be in a woman's body and how that gets complicated, right? And understanding our sexuality is, I mean, if anybody thinks it's a straight line, they probably haven't started the journey yet, right? Or started the process yet. So I wonder if we could talk a little bit about like, first of all, why you decided to write a book about this, what your intention, if there was one even, in writing the book was, and what you hope for women to experience when they read it because it's like an extraordinary page turner. Like for real. Yes. It's just so I told you, I said, even if you just take the stories that you tell from the book, there's almost no actually well-written, authentic, erotic nonfiction out there, period. I don't come across it. And we are imaginal beings, especially as women. We want food for our imaginations. That's why 50 Shades of Grey had the experience that it did, the topping charts for who knows how long. And there are very few high integrity versions of that that are actually based in a real woman's real experience. So it's a very unique contribution genre wise, but I'd love to sort of unpack the behind the scenes of why and who you really want to get what from this, you know, like what your intentions are at this point. Yeah, you read one of the first manuscripts of the book. And I'm so grateful that you did that and all the notes that you put on it. And I remember the voice messages that you sent me. you were like are you sure you want to put this it's like my inner prude I was like I don't know I'm at a pen name but you spoke to a part of me like there was a story in the book where I was writing and I was like should I put this out there anonymously and then there was a part of me that was like yay let's do that anonymously but then the attention hoard in me is like no I want all the attention. And that's when you gave me the idea of having a pen name. And I was like, yes, a pen name is exactly what I need. Because even though I'm not hiding my identity, there's something about it being under a different entity, you know, in a way. So to unpack it, this started because I always wanted to write a book. I was always curious about what it was like. I never thought I would be capable of it. I grew up with many, what you would call learning disability air quotes. I call them gifts nowadays, you know, but I was, I struggled reading a lot when I was learning how to read and I hated reading. And it wasn't until I discovered audio books that I said, wait, I don't, I'm not stupid. I'm not dumb. I just take it in a different way. And I, you know, in Cuba, I, they didn't know any, any better. They didn't know how to educate me. And I got to educate myself and re-parent and re-teach myself in that way. So when I met someone that blew my mind with his knowledge of the body and everything, I was telling all my friends about it. oh my God, and then this happened. And then I came from my neck and then it was just so crazy. I didn't know that was possible. And then my friend Vero, who, you know, was like, Wendy, just put it on, just write about it and send it to all your friends. So we get the newsletter and the way you don't have to tell the story to everybody. And I was like, yes, I'm going to do that. And next thing you know, I am writing a book and I thought at first that this was going to be like the next 50 shades of gray because it was purely erotic at first. And then when that relationship ended, I realized that there are so many lessons. So I wanted to incorporate not just the erotic experiences that I was having, not just my own sexual reclamation and all the learning that I was doing about my body and relationships. I wanted to also incorporate all of those lessons as well. So yeah, you said it perfectly earlier, part memoir, part erotic. I had not come to that conclusion, but that's really what it is. It's funny because you open the book at any random page and then it's either saying something about sex or something about dance or something about personal growth. And yeah, that was a two-year process of just writing about different experience. I also write about how I build Conscious Cabaret and how that came from a need for safe spaces for erotic performances. Because when I started pole dancing, I thought, I want to do this professionally. I want to get paid for this. I have a big entrepreneur in me that loves to monetize the things that I love. And for a long time, I was like, why do you have to monetize the things that you love and just do it for the love of it? And I was like, well, I enjoy monetizing it. You know, I don't monetize skating, but I want to monetize my experiences. And this one specifically. So I went to a strip club and the experience that I had was not what I imagined. So I created what I wanted to create. 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They also third-party test for toxicants like heavy metals, glyphosate, and microplastics, so you never have to worry what is coming along with your protein. Head to equipfoods.com forward slash Kelly Brogan to get 15% off your order. That's equipfoods, E-Q-U-I-P, foods.com forward slash Kelly Brogan. If you care about real nutrition with real transparency, this is the brand to trust. Yes, this is a vision I've had for a long time, even before poll was just because I love, if you look at my social media feed, it is like 70% women dancing, all types of dance. I love watching women dance. And I also recognize the role of alcohol and, you know, altered states of consciousness in that, energy field of a woman's open sexuality. It's a brutal combination as you learned professionally. And so I always had this vision of a women-operated, maybe run. I mean, now I believe that it's always probably best to have a male leader. But regardless, let's say a women-owned and unoperated, erotic dance, like lounge club with no booze. Right. And I, you know, I love having these ideas, but then the execution of it, I, you know, I'm not always here for. And so when you first told me about this, that's exactly it. This is it. This is it. And I've had the pleasure of being in your audience and it's exactly what I envisioned. It's a celebration of female sensuality. And so I wonder how you think even now, having finished the book and, you know, growing the Conscious Cabaret as an experiential business, how you think about the spectrum of sensuality to sexuality as it relates to, you know, the average woman's experience? Because I know that you have one of these bodies I talk about that I put myself around your body and it it gave me codes you know like it it offered a resonance to my own body that was a ripple you know that perhaps on some level in my own way I've continued to allow to move beyond me and I so I know that you think of and live and embody your sexuality as your life right like it is it's your life force it's the way you pick up a cup it's the way you look at a plant you know it's the way you run a hand over your body it's the way you touch a pole it's the way you eat a mango right so how do you think of that experience of your own heroes on a spectrum from the the more almost childlike innocent expression we've been talking about all the way to the sexual exploration and even climax-oriented pleasure that you share your experiences of learning about in the book. How do you relate to your own eros these days? I definitely would say that it fluctuates. Oftentimes, the sensuality that I allow during pull sometimes that's the only time I feel sexy in the day sometimes that's all the sexuality I express in a day and then there are times in my life where I express it more in my self-love journey or if I have a partner which I haven't in a long time you know I would express it there. But talking about the inner child and, you know, like the innocence behind it, when we're little kids and we're touching ourselves, it's just skin that feels good. You know, it's skin that feels good. It's innocent. It's curiosity, you know, it's following that curiosity that we naturally have. So as adults, I think it's huge to slow down. Lately for me in life, it's been a major theme to slow down and breathe more. And I even had this conversation with myself after the cabaret. It takes so much energy to build that, that after the cabaret, I always have this low of energy. And it's like I'm so unfamiliar with stillness sometimes that it feels like emptiness in a way. And I was literally looking here on my mirror after the event ended and I was begging myself to please slow down because I have been feeling so disconnected from my pleasure and my sexuality lately. And it's because I have all these things going on. I have the book. I am editing my own audiobook myself. I am producing the cabaret show and I'm not just producing it. I'm in charge of marketing. I'm doing all the things and I can for sure see and feel how that makes it so difficult for me to be in my pleasure. So I think slowness, curiosity are huge for us women specifically to continue to feed that sexual energy inside of us. So if you think about the you that started the journey that sort of opens up your book, Diary of a Bad Bitch, which is with your ex-husband, right? So if you think about the you that was there and then and the you that is, you know, putting the finishing touches on the audio book about this multi-year experience. What do you know now that you didn't then and maybe that you wish you did? Because I imagine that's the same thing that you want to communicate to the women who read this book. What I know now that I didn't know then is that it's always available to me. My sexuality is always available to me. My pleasure is always available to me. And there may be times where we are a little bit disconnected from that. And that doesn't mean that it will never be back. It's just a reminder that sometimes a bad bitch has to do what a bad bitch has to do. There's one part that I say in my book that goes, A bad bitch can recognize when she's pushed herself too far, but she doesn't love herself any less because she knows that a bad bitch sometimes has to do what a bad bitch has to do. So for a time there was for the last few months, I've been overworking myself. I know that and I can see how it's affecting me and my pleasure and my sexuality. But I'm not going to work overwork myself forever. you know and what I know now for sure is that it will be there I love it it's so true and that's why you know I experience you this way even just as a friend like there's just it's a shame truly shame free orientation right because when you're saying that what that means is that you're not going to reject what you're doing because you're doing it if you're doing it if it's what's happening and you choose not to reject it because you're just accepting that this is the expression of who you are at the moment that it is happening, the shift comes, right? Like when I look back now at, you know, my choice, and again, it's a very different context, although it's similar material, to share my dance journey, let's say, on a profile that had only ever been put to activist purposes right or professional educational purposes there's certainly still the part that I can access that says god why'd you do that you know what I mean and because I allowed it to happen and I I developed a relationship with the part that wanted that and needed that you know there's actually, I have colleagues who theorize that part of how I have remained so safe as a provocative public figure who was on the disinformation dozen list is because I made myself into an easy to dismiss non-entity. Oh, she's already destroyed herself, like pole dancing on her Instagram. We're not going to put the hit on her kind of a thing. Who knows? But it's a funny consideration Because when you're loyal to your yes and you become an ever more responsible, attuned and compassionate custodian of that yes over time, right? Like that matures over time. It's always shifting. It's always shifting, right? Like the landscape of woman is dynamic by its definition. And you do the things that you do because it makes sense to you to do them. And that's why I always come back to this idea that if, as women, we would simply stop imagining that we know better how another woman should be a woman, so much warfare consciousness would end because the sister woundology is particularly violent. You know, it's particularly injurious and it's particularly limiting of the potential that we have to envision, you know, what could be into it. Like I say, like often to walk in the dark, you know, towards towards that that unknown destiny. So I absolutely love that. There's part of me that was like, oh, maybe we should read like little clips from the book. But I think it is sufficient endorsement for me to suggest that your permission field as a sensual woman, as a sexual woman, as a woman who is exploring her own relationship to sexual expression will be expanded through this book. And again, knowing you personally and having been privy to this journey, I also know that the currency of authenticity that you bring to bear is the most valuable offering. It is because we in this day and I see this in my daughters and their generation, too. It's it's what we feel in our bodies as true in another that allows us to connect to the possibility that they represent. Right. Like I can feel in my own self how real you are. Right. Like how just sort of like unapologetically this is this is who I am in this moment. and it allows me to like really feel like what I imagine it would be like to be you, right? And it's that authentic translation of that is what expands our imagination, right? Because now I get to try on, even in my own mind, like what it would be like to look at life the way you look at it because you've depicted it so well in your narrative. And it's really, it's the most fun part about being a woman is like seeing how universal so many aspects of womanhood are and then how totally unique, you know, our little snowflake expressions are. It's really, really super delightful. I'm so, so, so excited that you pulled this off because I know what a feat it is, trust me. And you took on so much publishing this on your own, which I know the book journey is as rich and complex and fulfilling probably as the pole journey. So it's so satisfying to support your book birth. And I just love you so much. And I'm excited to put your beautiful face in front of more women in the world because I know what an expander you are. And I'm so grateful to you for it. Thank you so much. I feel the same way. There are so many ways in which you expand me as well. And I've even mentioned you a few times within these pages and the way that your books have supported me. And I'm just so grateful to be in your life and to, you know, inspire each other in our own unique ways. That's the best. That's the best. All right. Love you, woman. Thank you. Love you too.