111: How to Stop Fawning & Reclaim Your Boundaries as a Woman | Perri Chase

Hi, and welcome back to Reclamation Radio. I am Dr. Kelly Brogan, and today I sit down with another professional provocateur named Perry Chase. And we talk about all things feminine embodiment and relational dynamics. Specifically, we focus on the fawning response, why it actually works and what it costs. We talk about shame and how it can become addictive. And we talk about what it is that women who struggle with codependent dynamics actually need. And it is her signature offering called Sex Bomb. So stay tuned if you dare. Welcome, Perry, to the show. Thank you. I'm really honored to be here. I'm excited that we got to meet this way. So we first connected pretty recently after a team member of mine and friend Ashley forwarded me an email that I want to talk about in our little convo today about a masterclass that you were putting on on the subject of fawning. And I read, I think, three sentences. Excellent copywriting, by the way. I think I read three sentences of this email. And I just felt your unique wisdom on this subject of how to be an embodied, emotionally engaged and self-possessed woman. And so I took the class and I ended up reaching out to you. And we had like a two or three hour phone call. I know. I was driving to Sedona. I know. And it was just such a pleasure. Also because, you know, we have so many points of overlap, as it turns out. And we also, I feel like we're able to very gracefully navigate like some areas and terrain that we may not entirely, you know, see eye to eye. And I just I feel your aliveness and your wisdom to be, you know, absolutely like glittering in this very saturated arena of like how to be a woman, how to be in dynamic. I know that one of your great credentials and one of the ones that I value most in this arena is also your family, right, is your relationship. and I have gone on to participate in other offerings that you have, including Labyrinth, and you're just a font. I mean, I probably have listened to, I don't know, like several hundred hours of you sharing and your eloquence and the unique perspectives that you bring to bear remind me of my provocative nature and also married with, no pun intended, your lived experience, which is quite different from mine, at least, you know, where you're at now. So I am interested in chitty chatting today in some discrete areas, because I know we could just, you know, go all over the place. And yeah, I'm happy to, I'm happy to, for us to be super fine tuned wherever you want to go. And I just think that there's not a lot of people talking in a way that feels aligned with my perspectives on victim consciousness and personal responsibility on the subject of phoning and especially the role that it plays in codependent dynamics and the victim triangle. But you said something that I want to sort of open up with, which is women are the carriers of the betrayal of the feminine. And when I heard you say this, I mean, I was like louder for the ladies in the back, you know, because that's exactly the conclusion that I have come to. And it's a bitter pill. It's a bitter pill. So I wonder if we could just start there and begin to explore why it is that you've come to believe that. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because, well, I'm always cast as the villain. Am I the villain? Yes, I'm always a villain. But there's something about, you know, like when I think about fawn and fawning. Obviously, I try to differentiate the difference between what I see as the autonomic, immediate response to danger versus the habituated personality that is fawning. And I tend to have a very positive worldview about people, meaning that when I'm talking to someone and they are showing up into a conversation with me, I believe them that they like when when someone presents something to me. Right. And my experience has been many times that somebody is completely lying to my face. And it's hard because then what's happening is that they're actually asking you to be responsible for their consent and their boundaries and all of these things, which is impossible for another person to take on. And so what happens is that you end up in these relationships with people who self-abandon, say nothing, and then one day they get pissed off and they hate you. And you're like, I don't understand what happened. But then you're the bad guy. And so I've spent a lot of time looking at this because I'm always like, how do these people fool me? I have a great radar, but I think that the thing that fools me, I'll just give you my own thing, like where I go, is that I have like an inner child that's five who just wants to be friends and like misses it because it feels friendly, right? There's a lot of things I don't miss, but this is one of those ones where I get fogged. Yeah. I want to give a few examples because I heard, because I'm just sort of realizing like maybe people don't even know what we're talking about. And yeah, and I love how you, I heard you at least in one soundbite define it as lying for safety, right? So you talked about this, you know, why are people lying, right? Why are they lying? I mean, I know you know. Well, I say, I say, I have started to say that it's lying because one of the things that I see on, especially on the internet, right, is that there's a very clear, like, these are toxic traits and these are not. And I'm like, so anybody that has like a more fighty kind of system, they're toxic, but people who lie and just smile are not. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. If we're going to talk about everybody's toxic traits, we're going to talk about everybody's toxic traits. So I'm a fighter, right? And everybody can probably see that, right? And you said you've been very comfortable in, to some extent, and familiar with it, at least, the villain role. I relate to that entirely. I'm quite comfortable, actually. In a world where villainy is pretty out, It's something I enjoy. Like when I made the disinformation dozen list, there were a lot of people on the list trying to recruit me for some sort of big lawsuit or whatever. And I was like, honestly, this is delightful. I just like I was like, you know, disappearing from the Google algorithm. And now I got some clickbait. So that is it's sort of the brat, I guess, immature brat dimension of me. So it might be surprising to some, although I have talked about these examples a lot, to learn that I also am a big fawner, right? So if you offend me, if you trip a wire and I feel, you know, affronted, then for sure you'll see my Italian Irish temper. Okay. Maybe not these days, but at least for the other decades that I've been alive. But I appreciate that because to me, that feels honest. More transparent. Like I would rather someone yell at me. Yeah, I get that because the way that I fawn when that wire hasn't been tripped is very insidious. Like there's an example I share even, I think, in my last book, Reclam Woman, where I was at a car wash and I hadn't self-husbanded properly, meaning that I hadn't set the conditions for myself to feel comfortable. I didn't know how to pay. I didn't know to stay in the car or not. I was going to be late to meet up with a girlfriend because I didn't know how long it was going to take, all these things. And there's just like a million dudes buzzing around everywhere. And I'd never been to this car wash. So after the car wash, this guy is like meticulously drying every little droplet. And I'm in a rush, right? So instead of expressing clearly what my needs are, but he hadn't been rude or he hadn't tripped the wire. I just kind of micro consented to what was going on. And I just sort of like hovered around waiting, waiting, waiting. Long story short, this guy asks for my Instagram handle. And basically, he's like, do you live in Miami? And not only do I still not say, hey, I got to go. Thank you so much. I'm not sure where to pay. I have a friend waiting for me, whatever. Not only do I not say that, but I give him my Instagram handle. This guy I have zero interest in interacting with ever again. And then I get in the car and I proceed to crash my car into a pole in the parking lot of the car wash. That's a very, very short correction time. The universe is giving you a clear signal, right? That my system is so dysregulated, even though it looks like I was fine and just checking out of the car wash. So I mean, I could give you a million. My daughters are waiting in the car that I'm moving into this house and there's the construction guy, the contractor from like the last guy who was selling the house and he's very chatty. Okay. We, we gotta, we gotta go somewhere. They're waiting for me. My girls are waiting for me. So this guy starts talking about his hypertension and what he should do about his hypertension. I'm like literally mid medical consult before I'm able to be like, Hey, I really gotta go. I think there's something that happens with men though. That's like, I, I, I think there is something biological that happens for women in these situations though sometimes you know for sure and i've been working that out on on the world stage although i will say my girlfriends have noticed that if somebody like knows my work or whatever and comes up to me in new york city and they want to talk and talk and talk then my girlfriends will notice that i mean it's like a thing now that they are supporting me in creating more boundary conversations for everyone's sake and that's with women too so this is something that I have been working on is putting on whatever it is that I believe to be the villain crown, right? So whatever the risks are of being perceived as unavailable, as short, as rude, as bitchy, as cold, all of that is put on the scales with, oh, it doesn't cost me anything, just be nice, right? But you're calling this a lie. And it is a lie because I don't want to be there in that moment. I mean, it's so disrespectful fundamentally, right, to the entire interaction. Yeah, I think ultimately what will happen, and this is like for what I see happen when people start to be aware of this piece, is that eventually you'll be like, I can't anymore. Just like, you know, you ran into the pool. Like it's something that will unwind in you just in noticing it. Yeah. Right. Like it'll become like you'll see it and you'll just say, oh my God, I can't. I'm actually, I can't lie to myself that I want to be here. Right. Or, and really look, it's the good girl. It's the shoulds. It's the like, look, these people like me, I should talk to them or whatnot. And it seems like a normal social thing until you start really like a hundred percent putting how you feel first. So what I hear you saying, because even in, I don't know how you feel about polyvagal theory and that kind of thing, but even in the ventral vagal branch, let's say, of the stress physiology patterns that we can see, all of the tone of voice and the way that you present yourself socially, it's almost like built in to the management of what we perceive as danger. So what I hear you saying is that there comes a moment, a time, a window, a phase, a stage in your life where you can watch it happening and you develop a choice, Right. Like you develop a little bit of space so that you can choose differently. So how does that choice start to look relationally? Right. Like what comes instead? Yeah. So it's interesting because one of the things that I teach people is actually to move out of this like patriarchal mindset model into, you know, what I call the map of the feminine. And the map of the feminine to me is also the awakened model, like feminine, like awakening is a feminine process. Right. It's an undoing. And ultimately, it has a surrender that, you know, we're surrendering to like our bigger purpose. We're surrendering to our soul. We're just we're surrendering to the fact that we're taking care of in the universe. Right. And when you start to move to that orientation versus the ego mind orientation of like maintaining identity. right you're able to actually make decisions that are like fracturing right in in the sense of like oh they may totally not like this and i may have a consequence but i'm going to practice saying this until someone can hear me deliver it properly right so you go from kind of like showing up and almost in the lying phase and then you're aware of it and then i then i call it like the car crash phase, right? Where you're like, I can't stop it, but I'm watching it and this is terrible, right? To the place where you're like, actually, that's not a priority for me. What they think of me is not a priority for me. What's a priority for me is me staying in connection with this thing inside of myself and then adjusting everything to that. So to me, it's like, it's have you ever seen that photo it's an old photo of like um a trapeze artist and she's like jumping like she's she's literally let go but she hasn't been caught yet no i haven't but i can imagine i'll i'll send it to you but it's it's a it's called the catch and it's an old photo it's probably from like the 20s or something it's black and white and it's an incredible photo because you can see that she's let go and she's mid air and she's just right like she is fully activated in her let go waiting to be caught but participating in that and i always say that this is the process of getting out of that mental model into like the surrendered mystery model i don't know if This is making sense to how this is. It makes total sense to me. I mean I wonder if you can speak to the role of needs right To the role of like how that because you mentioned priorities and I been very very focused In fact I even done whole solo podcasts on the subject of priorities, because I think it's actually how we relate to reality is through the prioritization of our attention, right? So you're saying that if our priorities shift and that connection at any cost is no longer our priority, then it must be that our needs, I don't know what you would say, preferences, wants, take first place. But I've heard you talk about this sort of dichotomous relationship that women take on to their own needs and to others, which is like, you called it like the rule following like mute personality, this woman who is like very shameful about her needs, or you can end up more like maybe me or you or you're like the rule breaking bad girl. But either way, there is potentially like a suffocation of that inner feminine. Yeah. Look, I think that there are different types of like systems, right? And I I actually just did a whole class on this too about chaos and like the raw, raw primordial feminine energy of like destruction and creation. And I think that everyone kind of has different systems and some people have that more open, like meaning until I really learned how to like hold this, I mean, I was like a walking tornado. You know, I did not know how to hold my own system. whereas some people come to me and we're cultivating their system they can't feel anything like they don't have access to that and so you know there's kind of two sides to it and what's really interesting is that like these kinds of women attract one another too right and and that leads to all kinds of things but it's in getting access to this energy and opening it up right There's a messy period. So if your priority is belonging, which is, right, like I want to be good and I want to belong, it's really hard to even open that energy up because there's a period of time where it's messy as fuck. And if you are willing to be messy, you're just going to keep, right? And this is why I think there's all this, like, I'm going to say something provocative, Kelly. There's all this nervous system. Come to the right place. there's all this conversation about nervous system regulation and what i see is like there's this mistake that people are making that the nervous system is fragile it's not it's not fragile right and it's like but people what what i find in my work is that women are terrified of the sensations in their body they are terrified of their own orgasm they are terrified of their emotions. They are terrified of anything that feels out of control. And the reason is, is because society has demonized these energetics for all time. And so it's like, you know, how do you go from wanting to belong and doing it right to like really getting in touch with your own energy and opening that up, right? Because that is the feminine energy, right? It's not only soft and slow. It's like, right, you know, it's like it's a creatorship. It's the thing that kind of catalyzes the world, right, and lights other people up. And like I said, different people have different systems, but my system is not soft and slow. It's like a fucking Lamborghini, you know, and it wants to just go. And there's a price in throttling that back, but there's also a price that women pay in like completely suppressing it so that you can't feel it at all. And if you prioritize belonging and not having any conflict, I mean, you're going to be in trouble. And the ways that we compensate for that defense system, if you want to call it that, I don't know what you would call it, but... Strategy, right? Strategy, yeah. That's a better word. And if you think about it, it's like, I always say this about collectivism, right? Like, you know, like the idea that like, you know, people, like tribalism is a survival mechanism. But the awakened version of tribalism is like a group of sovereign awakened individuals who then come together to create together. It's not just groups of people coming together for protection. It's like you get to a level where you're like, there's nothing to protect. Right. Let's do something. Let's create something. Yeah. Yeah. That shift from fixing to creating. Yes. Or guarding. Right. Like I'm safer in the group. Right. To like, oh, my God, I'm pumped to like create with these people. Just the collaborative. Yeah. Complementing energy. Exactly. Right. Like, what are we what are we going to do together? Totally. And that's a very different it's a very different energy. But that's where we're going. Yeah. So you're talking about the relaxing of the strategy and how the next sort of phase perhaps is getting in touch with this primordial geyser. Because what I was going to suggest is that there's a lot of ways that we compensate for that strategy with regard to our needs and our needs can't be unneeded. So we'll find some other way to meet them. And I think that's often the identification with sickness, with illness, right? Because you talk about damsel fawning, I think you call it. I hadn't heard that kind of phrase before. Well, it's the one who said, I'm just really not okay. Can you please come help me? It has a Princess Rapunzel kind of thing. And I would suggest that it also can encompass this relationship to illness. Because I've used this example a couple of times. It struck me in the moment. The other week, my daughter asked me for a ride somewhere. And I don't know. I have a saying with driving. I feel you're over it. I just don't like it. I feel something, some wires trip with driving. Or it's just that I'm like a recovering workaholic. And so it's felt like unproductive time or something. I don't know. Whatever it is, I'm not big into driving. So she asked me to drive her. And I don't know why this was in my awareness. Maybe I had a girlfriend who was saying she had a migraine or whatever. But I was thinking like, oh, if I had a migraine, I've never had a migraine in my life. But if I had a migraine, I could just be like, I can't because I'm sick. I'm sick. I'm so sorry. But instead, I had to choose between I don't want to and then experiencing myself as a shitty mom, or I will do this. I'm willing to do this. And I'm negotiating with my level of willingness. Right. So there was a role that a symptom could have played in that moment that I think really does encompass this damsel finding. It's like, oh, I can't. I'm helpless. So you don't ever have to say no. I just stand in the naked vulnerability of like an unwelcome no. And how effective a strategy, you know, that really is until you're ready. And listen, men really fall for that shit. So, right. You know, it's funny because people think that my husband, like when people meet me and they don't know my husband, because he's just not really out front. There was a woman at a retreat that I had once and he was like, and they said to her, they're like, to him, they were like, why are you with her? They had this idea that he was like some doormat. And I'm like, you don't know my husband. Like, he's bigger than me. Like, he's got this huge energetic system. and for him, he is so turned on by my aliveness, right? He's like, I feel alive when I'm with you. He's like, I love the way you live. Like, I'm not a cliff jumper. I'm like, babe, let's go. Right. You know, and not literally, I'm a little old for that now, but I would have done that as a kid. I, I, I was, you know, I ran off a cliff on a hang glider with a man named Mosquito. I was totally that girl in Brazil. Like, I don't like, I think about it now and I'm like, oh my God, That was so dangerous. But I live like that. And he enjoys that. And I always say that what he likes about me is like, I'm like his wild horse. And like he keeps a very large pasture with like where I almost never bump into the fence. But when I do, it's electric. Like meaning like I have a very wide, wide pasture. And and he likes it that way. Like, he's not interested in me being minimized in any way. Like, he enjoys, you know, and then he has this huge, like, holding nest to him. And it's just, again, it's just a different combo of energetic systems. Actually, I have a teacher who's been on the show a bunch of times, Omrapani, who talks about how the dominant role, the masculine role, is to offer that permission field. and that women will choose a man based on how expansive her permission field is, how much can she bring to bear, which is, you know, the opposite of contracting, the opposite of his hysteria, the opposite of, like, the boundaries being too constrictive. Because what I hear you saying is, like, the boundaries exist. They're just really, really permissive. And that feels both free and properly, I would argue, constraining. Well, and they're agreed upon constriction. Right. Like, for instance, we have like no leaks, like energetically. I mean, you can imagine I take my husband to an event that we're running with over 100 women. There's pussy stroking like all that. He is like you couldn't even flirt with him. Sorry, I just dropped that. We do pussy stroking 100 people. We're going there anyway. Preview of coming attractions. Preview of coming attractions. Yes. um whoops uh yeah so but but he i mean he's obviously not in the room for that but what i mean is like i have him around a lot of women and like he would like there's like not even a leak it's clean yeah not even like an a smile or a hook of any kind like he is we're sealed yeah so i want to talk about pussy stroking i want to talk about this and you brought it up i want to talk about this, this sort of wrangling, if that's the right word, of the chaos, the development of an intimate dynamic with that, you know, emotional realm that is so it's like inflated and amplified from our childlike perspective, right? And so when we bring our womanly bodies to bear in these energetic fields, we access the alchemy, we access the magic in a that wasn't available, obviously, when we were kids. But I think you touch on it. I want to talk about shame also in a little bit because you touched on how just even the most minor exposure to these energetic signatures invokes all of these strategies. And at a certain point, you can skill up, right? You can develop the soft skills through self-relating. So what do you think? I want to touch on shame. I feel like I want to touch on shame. Of course. Yeah, we get more of a touch on it. Because I always say to people that shame is like the ego's wet blanket. And when I kind of define it for people that way, they're like, oh, like, what do you mean? And like, that feels different than what I'm, you know, I mean, shame has a self-punishment. But I will tell you that shame is one of the most addictive, sensational, sexual emotions, actually, right? that people have, which is this like, it's like almost like the combination between like desire or like something that they're not proud of or they think they should, and then they cover it. And then there's this taboo. Yeah. And happens right between. And what I have, you know, in all of my study of patterns, like I watch people and I'm like, oh, they just did one, two, three, four, five, all so they could end up in shame. Like meaning that shame is actually where they're headed the whole time because that's what they get off on. And what you ultimately have to decide is like, I'm not interested in it anymore. Just like I'm not interested in alcohol or I'm not interested in smoking weed. It's like, I'm not interested in finding myself in shame because all it is, is a belief that you are bad, right? And that is how society has taught us to self regulate, right? And follow all the rules and be the good little girl is that you end up in shame and then you get off on shame. So you keep regulating, right? And it's like, just take that off. It's like, it's just a fucking wet blanket. And so I'll tell you, there are a lot of people who love shame, who are very triggered when I talk about it this way, because they think that everyone should have shame. And I'm like, well, look, there's something called regret, Right. Like there's something called acknowledging like, oh, that was a mistake. I can I can acknowledge like, oh, you know, I could have done that better. Yeah, it's productive. But you don't need to sit in a fucking hole and hate yourselves because you made a mistake. And there are people who want that for other people. They enjoy other people feeling like shit about themselves for the mistakes that they make. Right. And then that that's how it's reinforced. Right. It's probably as you're speaking, I'm thinking like about the possibility that it's it is the the social regulator that is like a surrogate for having frank, honest interactions with people. Right. Because it does have social regulatory impact. In fact, that's arguably its only role. Well, that's why religion uses it. Right. So if you don't know how to exercise your power of choice to express your yes when you feel a yes, express your no when you feel a no, then you'll need to manipulate in this way where you enjoy inducing a sense of badness and wrongness, which, of course, is a projection in somebody you perceive as the enemy. But I love that you talk about it in this way because it's exactly what I've come to find in my own experience with. I don't think I felt shame, honestly, consciously until a couple of years ago when it became my priority to focus on moving. Why call it a shame wall? Like moving through the shame wall because it feels like you hit this. What isn't the crescendo, but it feels like it is, you know, that is insurmountable. I don't know. In my experience, like I'll feel just a little bit and then all of my defenses are activated. I need to send the text say the statement make the point crystallize the reasons in my mind that I right And if I just allow that like wave to crest and then find myself on the other side I mean it literally usually minutes shockingly at least in my case where I can start to really just work with the arousal, like how activated my system is. So I know you have your way of being I have something I want to ask you here. I want to ask you. So like we call that shame. But like what I really hear, right? When I, when I tap into what you just shared, the thing at the bottom of that, that I hear is like, you don't see me. And I need to, I need to like prove myself because you don't see me. You go, you don't understand me. And I would add, you think it's my fault. Cause that's like a story, you know, it's always Kelly's fault kind of a thing. Yeah. So girl, I know all about that story thank you i just keep guessing it's kelly's fault oh yeah it's mary's fault too i you know but that's also you know that's also the issue too is that when we take over responsibility like you know in my spiritual journey i got rid of going back to victim consciousness for a second so but i've changed this in my teachings too because you know i really came into my spiritual journey with this like more rigid idea of this and then it's opened over time. So I'll just give you a little bit of the arc for me. You know, the idea that there are no victims is not actually the most accurate statement. So like, cause I think a lot of people can't hear that. And then what I've found is that you need to be able to talk to the multiple, like there's multi strata, right? So like the fact that we all consented to all of this and that everything is perfect and everything is for us and it's all for learning of the soul. Yes, that's true. But if you just were attacked in an alley and you find yourself in the ER with a rape kit, that's not a very interesting or accurate portrayal of like, of course, there are things that happen to us, right? And it doesn't mean that those things aren't ultimately for us, but there is the human aspect of having to go through very difficult things that are hard and sad and suck and fracturing and traumatic and all of that. And my journey has been so much about finding this relationship between this spiritual perfection and then what have I been given with as a human being to work with? And for me, it's a constant conversation. It's a dance, right? And what I've also found is that the more... my spiritual journey has like taken front seat, my woman and my inner child occasionally would be like, no, like I just don't want to do that. And most of the time I'm like too bad, but like we'll have to negotiate. Like, do you need a cookie? Like, do you want a lollipop? You know, like just kid stuff, right? That kind of, not actual cookies, but like, you know, like what do you need? Do you need a few days like watching TV? Like, what do you want? and it's most of the time the way that i orient to it now is like that's not what i'm here for i'm not actually here just to be a woman like i'm here to let my soul do what it came to do and my job is actually to get out of the way and so you know from a victim like if i here look you and i talked about this like i got hit with the whole like mold bartonella lime thing right and I went into some of these groups to learn about it. I was like, oh my God. I got stuck in this maze that was really dense. I was like, I need to get out of here. I can't. I did the spiritual work to heal myself. I still have some physical stuff that I'm working through, but I did not adopt the consciousness of that density. Yeah, the disempowerment of the blaming, finger printing. Right. I allowed myself to just move through it spiritually and then just keep going. And I actually didn't have a lot of like I didn't get taken out in the same way that I would have if I had tripled down. Yeah. The energetic hooks that can fasten themselves to you when you blame Mother Nature for your human experience are, I would say, one of the most powerful vectors of human disempowerment there is. So to resist that in whatever way, and I always say that too, it's like however you can get to the place where you find what's happening interesting on some level on this, right? And where you stay on your own team, you know, then get there. But, you know, I appreciate what you're saying because I've definitely been, especially earlier when I was more in my sort of angry bitch sounding the. But you needed that. Worth of blowing. Yes, I absolutely needed that. And I was accused of victim shaming. In fact, there were like whole blogs, you know, dedicated to Dr. Kelly Drogan's victim shaming. And I think a new one. But wait, wait, wait, wait. Before you even say that, I just really want I want people to hear this, though, like victim shaming, blaming, whatever. And like, I feel like is a difference. Like most people don't even understand what it actually is. Like you're never telling anyone it's their fault. No, but I was not expressing compassion for the experience and instead rushing to the ready solution that could be found through personal responsibility. I didn't have really the capacity to sit in the subjective experience of victimhood with another person. Right. So, you know, what I was going to say, though, is that it's family consolation theory that has helped me to understand that there is a victim role and there's a perpetrator role and that this dynamic is extremely intimate. Right. It's extremely intimate because there's almost always a mirror there. And you could argue that the perpetrator is intending to induce in the victim their own experience so that the mirror can be complete. Oh, yes. I've heard this. I've heard this. Like, like someone needs to play out what happened to them until. Yeah. And, you know, it happens also in dynamics triangles, right? With our kids, right? Like if you're if your kid is feeling dismissed, disrespected and ignored, they might have some sort of a tantrum or act out or whatever in a way that makes you feel dismissed, you know, and ignored or disrespected. Right. So these dynamics are just a play of energy, but there is a real role. There's the victim role and there's the perpetrator role. And maybe in your ancestry that gets flip-flopped and maybe you find yourself playing the perpetrator. And then in another generation, there's the victim, right? So there's the person who raped somebody. There's a person who robbed the store, right? these recognizable perpetrator behaviors and how it is that the victim can come to see themselves in that perpetrator and how they narrate that perpetrator to be is, I don't know, to me, advanced mastery level, you know, spirituality. You don't have to do that. You can 100% rest in this shitty thing happened to me. Yeah. I think that I agree with you. And that is definitely a practice. I talked about this, actually. I forget where, but I talked about this concept, which I call negative empathy, which means to me, and I don't know if anyone's ever talked about it like this, but that you can actually understand how someone could be driven to horrible things, that you could feel like, oh, because a lot of times what happens, let's say there's something awful going on in the world. I'm not going to get into politics or whatever. Whatever it might be on the geopolitical scope. And people are like, I could never like that is not me. I could never and whatever. And I'm like, well, but there is only you. So it's all part of you. And like the growth is actually seeing the human being as well as whatever dark, horrible behavior we might be seeing. It could be the most hardcore of the hardcore, right? But still being able to see that they're part of God, right? And that we are all like from one place and that you can be like, use the lesson of that mirror to say like, wow, I could understand how someone could get driven to that. I'm not going to get driven to that, but I can feel the circumstances that they are in and how that could create that. Yeah. You've tapped into a preexisting concept. It's called negative capability. And it's exactly that, which is, which isn't that cool? And it's like you reinvent the wheel all on your own. I had no idea. But it's exactly what you're describing. It's the capacity that we have to hold paradox, to hold uncertainty. And I love the nuance that you're adding because it's the capacity to feel into why somebody might do something that you imagine you would never do, right? So that hard line gets dissolved. I would say that is the hallmark of mature adult consciousness, right? It's this tension of opposites, I think, as young would say, that you develop the ability to hold. And so circling back, I know that one of the ways that you support women in developing this capacity is through the recruitment of sexual energy, through the recruitment of our embodied sensations while visiting with, you know, what's unwanted all the way to what's wanted, right? Like this, this spectrum of ideas and thoughts and beliefs inside of us. So yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit about how, how that came to be as a focal point for you. And right. Like, cause it's beyond like screaming into a pillow. No, no. Yeah. I mean, like, look, I, my first awakening experience was when I met an enlightened master in 2008 when I was in Bali. And I had a massive, I mean, it was like earth shattering kind of awakening, went back to Hong Kong, quit my job, kind of like, you know, it was like sliding doors, like, okay, I can't continue this life. It has to stop right now. And what I found was a lot of that was very mental. Like that awakening was very mental. And it was very like, you know, just waking up my mind. And the thing is that that's where a lot of awakening stops for people. And it becomes kind of transcendental, becomes kind of, you know, out of the body. It becomes about mindfulness. And a lot of times what actually happens is it becomes about spiritual ego, which is where people are like, I am not that anymore. And they take on a whole new identity, but they haven't actually really continued their awakening process. They just become the idea of somebody else. And what I found was in 2012, a friend of mine took me. She's like, do you want to go to this pussy stroking class? And I was like, I'm sorry, what? Like I was in San Francisco. I was like, this place is so weird. And I went to this class that was, you know, an introduction to orgasmic meditation. And people may or may not have heard of it. It's the same lineage, like Nicole Day Doan, Mama Gina, like they all come from that, Morehouse, etc. So I went to this class and I tried this practice and I will tell you something, that practice changed my life. And it started, it's a partnered practice. So it's a 15 minute partnered practice and I practiced for years. I actually met my husband there. Some of my best, best, best friends are from that time. People on my team, this was a very important time for me. And what I experienced in the beginning of this was, oh, this is bringing my awakening into my body. This is no longer a mental thing. This is like learning how to wield this huge thing that I have been born with that for many, many years, I just couldn't control. And this channel. And I remember being in college and I was in theater and singing and whatnot. and I got this very clear download of like, look, if you pursue this path, like you're going to die. Like you don't have the infrastructure to hold this channel that you have. And like, I just couldn't manage it. I didn't know how. And so it wasn't really, and then I had it shut down for a very long time. And then when I started to open it up and like in a place that actually revered feminine energy, I was just like, It was mind-blowing for me. And then, you know, as I, you know, kind of went on my own and, you know, I've developed my own body of work in the past 10 years. There was a time, it was around during COVID, actually, when everybody was at home. People were doing a lot of breath work. And I was like, we're missing pussy. And I'm like, we need pussy. And, yeah, I'll be honest. Like while the partner practice is incredible and they've done a lot of science on it, actually, that it actually syncs up the limbic systems of the partners that are practicing. They've tracked the brain waves. I was like, there needs to be a solo practice for women. And so what I what I started to do was to develop this practice that is a guided meditation. So it's held online, you know, and it's and you listen. But I basically guide it to music. I use breath. And then the stroking is guided, but obviously people also listen to their bodies. But what I'm teaching a lot of times in it are energetics, different kinds of like feeling. For instance, I'll give you an example. I have a sex bomb that's called hope, fear, and faith. And so as people are doing it, I'm like, okay, see if you can get in touch with the feeling of fear versus the feeling of hope versus the feeling of faith and see if you can bookmark what that feels like in your body. Right. And by doing that, people can feel the expansiveness of faith versus the contractedness of fear. And so if we start taking everything into this energetic map as opposed to a storied map or a map of opinion or what we think about something in our judgments, it's just like, is it contracted or expanded? And then it's like, okay, great. So if we then take on the principle of life is about expanding, it's actually about taking layers off. It's about opening our heart. It's about opening, right? We're stuck in this like little bubble and we're like literally taking layers off. And so by working with sexual energy in Sex Bomb people are able to use their own sexual energy to heat up their system from the inside Instead of calling in all these catastrophic things all the time that like blow them open then they open too far And then they like contract and and life and they feel like a victim to life because life is trying to say, hey, there's something in there for you to look at. Whereas if we are practicing and we are participating and we have a system that isn't crystallized and crunchy, we have this like malleability that's happening. When things come in, it's like, is it going into a dry pussy or a soft, wet pussy? Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you tell me what kind of sex you want to have with the universe. but it's like your whole system, right? So you get it hot and then, and then you're able to like be more fluid and then expand and contract. And, and then eventually, you know, you really get to expand more. And I have found over the years, like I don't have that mental narrator anymore. You know, most of the time my mind is quiet. And so I'm able to then use it for creation as opposed to like constantly managing it. And that I believe comes from the, from really rooting into the body. How would you, I love this. How would you say that this shows up relationally? Because I know that when you've talked about the, the hooks of codependent communication and the ways that we get addicted to our own victimhood in these relational arenas. I mean, I remember you offered just like a simple example of how it might look if you're about to take one of those hooks with your partner and instead you'll just say, listen, I'm being critical. Like, let me just take a minute and figure out what I want. Right. So what is the connection between working with that sort of more sensation-based play of these energies and developing intimacy with them? How does that translate into more self-possessed, adult, personally responsible relating? Yeah. Okay. So the way that I would answer this, I look at it as two systems, right? And so if we're looking at this as just going to say it's masculine, feminine balance in the system, Right. So what I always say is that a lot of women have an underdeveloped feminine because we've said that that's not important. And then it feels very unprotected. And then it has like, let's say, a 14 year old boy protecting it. Right. So you have these women that are like, like kind of very rigid, like got a lot, got a lot of structure. Right. Very like manicured. Like it's like a whole thing. And really what that actually is, it's a rigidity that's protecting this like underdeveloped feminine. So when we start to do energetic work, right, and what's going to happen? What's going to happen with that system? Underdeveloped feminine that's kind of like swirling around and, you know, and then this rigidity, that rigidity is going to attract like harder, more aggressive energy to come through so that that energy inside can be freed and practiced with. And people don't like to hear this because you're like, what do you mean? Am I attracting violation? And well, yes, but, but you did. It's not your fault. I'm not blame it. Like, I don't want to talk. I don't want people to hear this is like, it's your fault. It's just an energy. It's just about energetic attraction. So what I see is that if you kind of have that system, you're constantly going to be provoked in your relationship. You're constantly going to get gets you probably going to attract someone who's pokey. Right. And then you'll be victimized by the poking. Right. But then the poking actually gives you the sensation to get out of your rigidity for a moment. And then you kind of get addicted to that. People talk about these as trauma bonds. But I really like to leave that out because it's just really like neutralizing it with like, what energy are we playing with? Let's not add all the story. And then, but as you develop your own, like not being victimized by your own energy, because this is the other thing, is that a lot of women, I have seen this over and over again, is like the women realizing how they aren't terrified of their own life. And when women have this realization through doing a stroking practice, that is not about orgasm or pleasure, by the way. My practice is not, I would not call it a pleasure practice. I would call it a spiritual, energetic expansion and deepening practice, cultivating awareness, cultivating capacity. But when you are cultivating that and you begin to open to new levels, I am always shocked, actually. But in awe also, like when women say to me, oh, my God, the thing that I have been terrified of in my life is my own life force. It is my own sex. And listen, there are plenty of things that happen in early childhood where we have experiences. And I really like this definition of trauma. I saw this from – this is how Kabbalah would define trauma – was just literally too much energy for the vessel to the point where it fractures. Right. And then and then through our spiritual work, we need to put it back together. And that's not always sexual abuse. Like I was adopted and I like I was born. No one ever saw me. You know, there were there were a whole bunch of things that that you have these moments that are just too much for for whatever. But I think these are also gifts, right? And so it is our responsibility, going back to personal responsibility, to cultivate these locations, get to know this energy, learn how to hold it in our vessel. And then how that would look in relationship is like, you're not afraid of your partner. You stay on the same team, yeah. You're on the same team, but also there doesn't have to be this back and forth provoking role. You can just be like, open to them. You know, like one of my practices with my husband, because he reflects me really well. So like, if he's grumpy, I know that I'm not open. And so I have a practice with my husband, which is like, I try to approach him in how open can I be? Like, and listen, we also, we rage, we can rage. So we're both ragers. And like, you know, when we fight, it's like two lions. there's no holding back we fucking go for it and but the thing is is that we run that out really quickly and then we're done but a lot of people like can't handle that you know like he he and i know how to different types you got to have you got to have you got to know how your energetic system works yeah so you're describing compatibility right but even though it looks you know uh potentially volatile that there's compatibility there i know i took you on i'm i I know that's a lot. So yeah, noticing the time, because I want to ask maybe as a final question, you know, where you think that women who are in recognition that they have codependent habits, that they are, you know, often in the good girl side of the fawning, fighting split and are interested in taking possession of their vessel, of their strategies, of their behavior, right? Like, where do you think is the most important place to start, right? Because if it's not necessarily mental, psychological, right, then is it just self-observation? Like, where do you think these women need to focus? I think there's a couple of things. I think, number one, The biggest thing that I see with women who are fawning is that they aren't willing to lose relationships. Whenever I have found myself in a relationship with a fawner, one of the things that I always see is they weren't willing for me to be like, oh, that doesn't work for me. Meaning they don't want to say what they need because I might just be like, okay, well, this isn't a fit. And they don't want to hear that. And so they self-abandon in order to have whatever proximity they can have. And they do this with men or, you know, whatever. It's like I've seen people be like, well, I don't want to lose. I don't want to break up with my husband or my boyfriend. And it's like, well, you're not being yourself. You don't have a choice. Like the choice point here is that you either choose to be yourself or this is not going to end up working in the long run anyway. It's going to catch up with you. The truth always catches up. Right. And so it's like, I think that there's a couple of pieces. I do think awareness is important, which is why I did that one day thing, right? It's like, okay, let's just unpack how this pattern plays out so people can raise awareness. I do believe like all my work starts with pussy stroking. I think everyone needs to be stroking for pussy and like doing so in a practice way because once you have that connection, you're not actually looking for the external validation as much as you are really deeply rooted into your own knowing. And what happens is as that knowing strengthens, it's like, no, I really do need to choose myself here, right? And I'm willing to be myself and tell the truth, even if there are consequences. And then we learn how to even out those communications. Yes. That's exactly what I was thinking. Because first there's that pendulum of like, I have boundaries now. Fuck you. Yeah. This is my truth. And it gets really aggressive. And then what happens is that you get even more deeply rooted into yourself. It just becomes softer because you're like, I don't need to actually fight to hold myself. I just am. And so I think this is a maturing process. And I think we've lost a lot of this wisdom in female lineages because you have that virgin horse split, which we could do an entire other episode on. But it's like women were either using their sex to hook and control or they were shut down and really prim and proper and it's one or the other. But there is actually a unified woman in the middle, which I think is like the mature matriarchal feminine. Yes. I'm in the middle of Nancy Friday's tome, My Mother Myself. And it's like literally an endless book that just goes into extraordinary detail on her analysis of the inheritance of that split from the mother, right? The mother's conflict around her own sexuality get handed down in this sort of, you know, directive to at once procreate, right? Become a mother yourself, but also don't have sex, right? Like, and sex is bad and sex is wrong. And a mother is not fundamentally a sexual archetype necessarily, neither is a wife. So where does the sex come in? Where does the relationship to sexuality? Like, it's just it's hundreds of pages of her, you know, I'm drinking this. I'm going to have to read this one. I can't say I feel any more clear other than the source of this, you know, this dilemma is in the mother. But it but it sounds like she's still working it out from like the wrong paradigm. Interestingly enough, the story that just came up in my mind, I met this guy once at a bar who was young guy. And this was many years ago. And he was telling me how his wife didn't have sex with him anymore. and but that she was a total ho sorry i'm gonna just use that word for a second like meaning like like when they when they her mother told her do everything before you get married and then you don't have to do anything anymore that's quite right and it was like this weird trick of like you know like having this like wild hot sex with him all the time and then they got married and then she was like yeah i'm done and and and he was like mind was blown but i the thing that stuck with me with the story was that that was the mother's coaching, right? The mother coached her daughter to like give him the best sex until you get married and then don't worry about it. You don't need to do that anymore. I was like, that is wild to me, but there's a lot of things, you know, we could, we could go on and on, but I ultimately, ultimately I think that how we educate women about their bodies, how we educate women about the truth of their biology, how we, you know, I loved the stuff that you, you know, when I first started listening to you about like taking women off medication, getting like in touch with, you know, nutrition and their cycles and their bodies. Like for me, that's like, we, this is, this should be the basic education that we are teaching women. And it's one of the things that we're teaching in my Pussy Map program because I have a sexological worker. I have a hormone specialist. We have all these different things. And we're like, this is the sex ed that I wish I had received. And our girls need that. And they're not getting it. And the only way they can get it is through their mothers, really. And so we have a responsibility to be a good template. Yeah, well, hopefully, even between the two of us, we're starting to disrupt that generational trend. I am so delighted to have you in my corner to know about your work and your audacity because that is one of my favorite words and you embody it in an extraordinary way. And I will make sure that all of the links, including the masterclass, you probably wouldn't call it a masterclass. I don't know. That's just like- I call it a portal. I call it a portal. I have like a series of free. Because it's comprehensive, including like a sample of sex bomb, what you're talking about. Well, it's even more because it's a 45 minute sample. But I did put, I actually did put a basic sex bomb class in there so that people who are like, oh my God, this is too much. Like they can just try it and then. Perfect. Yeah. So we'll make sure that that's in the show notes and we will absolutely be having another conversation on the 800 other things that we could talk about together. It's really such a pleasure. It's such a pleasure, Ferry. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.