107: Byron Katie: How to Stop Being Controlled by Your Ego

I experienced a death, a death where the ego just dropped. I was a victim and I had every valid proof of it. You're describing a kind of annihilation, which is certainly a death. It's also an orgasm, right? Eventually it's orgasm. I see the ego as a terrified child just fighting for its life to exist. But ego is a state of mind, not body. So how can the ego live? It identifies as this. Byron Katie, a renowned spiritual teacher and best-selling author. The creator of the work, a transformative self-inquiry method inspiring millions to find peace. An influential American speaker and author. Byron Katie, a global voice for self-discovery and healing. The ego's not going to take it lightly. That's why it takes an open mind, because the ego eventually begins to trust you're not trying to kill it. That's the absence of war, you know, not trying to kill the ego, but to... Hi, and welcome back to Reclamation Radio. I'm Dr. Kelly Brogan. And today I am fangirling to host Byron Katie on the show. I am continually surprised when I reference her teachings to others out in the world. And I meet people who have never heard of her. So if you are one of those folks, You are in for an honorable treat here to be exposed to her wisdom. To me, she is one of the most important embodied guides of our time. And her method of inquiry specifically is such an extraordinarily elegant pass out of the certainty and superiority that underpin victim consciousness. So there's huge overlap in my mission and what it is that she has been very diligently for many decades putting out into the world. So stay tuned to learn about the quality that I see in Byron Katie that leads me to believe that she has something very powerful to teach us. Also, the most essential questions that you can ask in the quiet of your own innerscape when you are upset about literally anything. And what to do if your man leaves a mess in the kitchen. So she'll give you her perspective on how to transform that within minutes. Enjoy. So thank you for being here. I was just saying off camera that I am a bit starstruck, which is very rare for me. And I'm just so honored to be in conversation with you, Byron. Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. So I wanted to set a bit of context because we were speaking a bit about, you know, where I am coming from in this path towards self-discovery and self-knowledge and self-empowerment, however you want to frame it. And I've been looking at for the past, I don't know, 15 years, I guess, the, you know, the role of health in our experience, the role of relationships in our experience, and how what I refer to as victim consciousness seems to underpin a lot of what we call human suffering, right? And that there are a lot of ways in which victim psychology and victim consciousness actually meets needs, allows for connections and a sense of power to be accessed through blaming, through finger pointing, through defending and proving that there is a lot of juiciness in that way of being. And I know from obviously personal experience, I also have observed that relaxing that impulse, the impulse to defend and prove and blame, whether it's your genes and biochemistry or whether it's your husband, is the path to what we call healing. Right. That somehow transitioning out of that is the way. And from my perspective, you have the most effective methodology, the most logical, the most lucid of all approaches to this transition from one way of being, if you want to call it victim consciousness or disempowerment or a habit of struggle, into another. And it's just a different experience, right? It's not even necessarily better. It's just different. And I know that you have moved through your own transformation that gifted you. Maybe you would call it that this, you know, this methodology. And so I wanted to really start there. I'm sure most people listening are aware of your story and know of your contributions. But I wonder specifically about how you look at your trajectory and the very specific struggles. I don't know if you would refer to them as having been, you know, struggles with so-called mental illness or I don't use that phrase typically. But if you look back and you and you think about how essential it was that you moved through the challenges that you moved through in order to get to the place that you have arrived at, which is probably best characterized as equanimity. Right. Do you see that there was some necessity for you to move through what you move through? Or do you think that people can come into the space that you're occupying and that you support others in accessing without a specific, you know, sort of initiation? I was always curious, like how much of a role you think that played in your in your journey as as a human? I hit a bottom with self-loathing, and I saw myself as a victim. And it literally took me to a kind of death. It's like I didn't survive that painful victim experience, identity. And it was nothing I was doing on purpose. I was a victim and I had every valid proof of it. And it just turned out not to be so valid because I had no insight into self. So I discovered, you know, I'll just cut to the chase. I experienced a death, a death where the ego just dropped. It could not go any further with, there's something wrong with me and it's your fault. And it was like the death of that kind of identity. And it was so profound. I saw the cause of my suffering. I saw literally the cause of my suffering. And the cause of my suffering is when I believed my thoughts, I was a victim. When I questioned my thoughts, it tapped me automatically into a kind of wisdom that I had no inkling of prior to that. It was so clear I saw the cause of my suffering. so I went through the world for a while trying to share that with people but it's not something I could share because what I had to share there was nothing new in it people would say well you're not a victim yeah but you don't understand or there's something wrong with me oh there's nothing wrong with you yes there is it was gone The defense was gone. And the cause of my suffering was when I believed my thoughts. I suffered. When I questioned my thoughts, I didn't suffer if my mind was open to self-inquiry. And the first question that I experienced was the answer to, is it true? But is what true? Literally, to stop my head, I had to move that victimhood, those victim thoughts, from my head to paper. So there they were, stopped. My head stopped on paper. Even though it was running in my head, they were stopped so I could question them. And so that's what I pass on to the world. You know, as it turns out, I've heard all my life, it's the truth that sets you free. But what truth? What truth? They didn't tell me what truth. What truth? The way to be happy is to be good, but, you know, I am good. It's their fault I'm the way I am. All of this traveling through my head, you know, nothing unusual here. So I moved the thoughts, the thoughts about the world, my children, my husband, my mother, my father, just moved those thoughts from my head to paper. And there they were, stopped. And then I could question them. Like my mother doesn't love me. I just, I believed that she doesn't really love me. She says so. But I didn't get that to my soul. So it's, is it true? My mother doesn't love me. Is it true? Now I have to look to myself. And the answer is yes. You know, it's true. The ego comes out with it. And I just kind of think, good for sharing and settle down. Because that's been the answer all my life. Let me get stealth in it. Am I missing something? So this helped me to open my mind and open my mind. And even though the answer could still be yes, it was clear to me. Or if it was a no, it was clear to me. So I consider, is it true? For a long time. It is an exercise in stillness where the ego has opportunity to go, yeah, yeah. And just to patiently, I see the ego as a terrified child just fighting for its life to exist. But ego is a state of mind, not body. So how can the ego live? It identifies as this body. So it is all about survival of the body. That's like the host, you know, as ego, who am I if something happens to the body? And, you know, fearful, fearful, too old, too fat, too thin, too stupid, too smart, just, you know, all of that running, you know, the host of I, I am. So my mother doesn't love me. And I would sit in and say, and this takes patience. It takes a mind that really wants to know, really, really wants to get down and get it. Because this is not something someone can teach me. It's experiential. And it takes an open mind and a lot of depth. A lot of pain will get me there. I'm describing, you know, enough pain will get you there. Or just, you know, the grace of an open mind. So then the next question is how do I react? What happens when I believe the thought? My mother doesn't love me. Oh, my God, to sit in that, to sit in that. And it takes me back to my earliest and the comparison of how she treated my brother and how she treated me. All of the proof, how I react when I believe the thought, you know, the way I would distance myself from her, the way I tortured my brother, you know, all of this. It walked me through this lifetime, just how I treated others. it killed me it killed me meaning that identity that that that identity that victim identity I saw I treated others and I and it killed me the things I said the things I did as a victim and then that last question who would I be without the thought My mother doesn't love me. Who would I be without thought? And how do you answer that? Number one, I had no idea who am I without it. There goes, like, what percentage of my identity? I mean, it's like, who am I? You know, that old question, who am I? Who am I without that victimhood? Just that one little thing. You know just not so little How much of my identity was tied up in that And it doesn matter if your mother dies or is dead They live in us They live in us So that was my excuse and it was valid all my life Pure ego. Not right or wrong, it's just convincing. So who am I without it? So then you begin to live without it. And each step of the way is the answer to that old question, who am I, shows up. It's stunning. Stunning. It's a don't-know world. Who am I without that loathing, without that hatred, without that victimhood, without that misery, without that personality? I mean, there's power in that personality. We don't give it up easily. It's a death. And then the other people, you know, I would put them on paper too. You know, all these perpetrators in my life just didn't understand me. And I refer to it as the work because it is. And it takes courage. Oh, my. Does it take courage? because the ego is going to differ all the way. It's a power until we understand it's nothing more, nothing less than a state of mind. And there is no moment that the ego is not in charge. It's just do we understand it? And until we do, we're at war with the self. If we're at war with a state of mind, it's not a thing. It is not physical. It's identification. And its entire focus is this body, this host, this I that it associates as. so that's the work you know and the short version for me is like judge your neighbor write it down ask more questions and turn it around or not you know it is a way it is a way and it takes it takes courage i've been in your in-person containers and you know somebody who also has collected community around me dedicated to the transformation of victim consciousness i know that the courage that it takes to do this with other people doing it is diminished, right? That it becomes more available to access the relief and maybe even the joy of this annihilation, because you're describing a kind of annihilation, which, you know, is certainly a death. It's also an orgasm, right? Like it's that. Yeah, it's eventually it's orgasm. Who am I without it as looking good? Feeling better. Right. And I think of this method, you know, as a very, as somebody who's probably primary defense, you know, is intellectualization of my emotional discomfort. I think of this as a psychosurgery, right? That what you're doing with these simple points of inquiry is excising, right? A dimension of identity. Yeah, it really is like an exorcism of anything less than beautiful. I love that. I love that. I wanted to take this conversation into, I'm not sure how often you talk about activism and the application of this work to the activism space. I spent a decade as a very righteous, indignant activist, and I know that activists care about the truth, right? this theoretically anyway, what invites us to the space is that we know the truth and we would like to perhaps at best share the truth with others and at worst impose our truth on others. And I know that there are two elements of activism as I have explored the shadow of it and really, you know, laid down my sword in many ways that seem to serve as kind of a poison. And one of them is certainty. Right. And the other is superiority. And I know that when I look at my activism trajectory, I can see both of those running like, you know, rivers of poison through my entire life. They're the very thing you're fighting against that you're opposed to. too. Yes. Yes. And I believe that your methodology, I always want to call it the work, that your work of the work is essential for anybody who imagines that they know how the world should look, right? So it's one thing to work on this with your neighbor. And I would actually argue, I think you would agree that that's higher level work, right? It's as higher spiritual work as to just actually apply it to the person in front of you. You call it your neighbor. But many of us start with how we imagine we have cracked the code of the way society should be, the way the world should be, and the posture that we get into around, it's really like a rejection, right, of reality. So I wonder if I could take an example from a very common question that I get, which is not related to sort of world activism, but more the awakening to a certain kind of truth about health, because that's an arena that I mostly find myself in, is this reclamation of authority, self-authority in the arena of health. So what happens is a lot of the folks that I talk to, and I certainly can relate, they learn about the power of natural medicine, right? And they learn about the power of lifestyle and they learn about the choices that we have. They learn about perhaps some of the misinformation we are provided by, you know, pharmaceutical advertising and maybe even the conventional medical system itself. And what happens when somebody in their life is potentially struggling with their health, what happens is that then they feel all of this energy come up about how certain they are, about how that person should handle their health, and that it's a worse, it's a lesser path to do it in the conventional way, right? So let's say that my father is diagnosed with cancer, and I am up at night, like totally distraught, that I know he can do all sorts of natural things to help himself. I may even have the proof, right, that these things can work and that he's going to actually get worse and sicker if he chooses to do chemotherapy or, you know, radiation or some sort of conventional thing. And I am so sure that all I can think about is strategies for how to get him to see the light, right, get him to understand the peril that he's in if he makes the wrong choice. Maybe he's already starting to make the wrong choice and I'm feeling like I'm losing the opportunity to influence him. For me and for most of the folks in my world, to be convinced that pursuing conventional treatment is his right. Of course, it's his right, but it's not the right thing to do. Right. So we have this mentality and the certainty. It's like an armor, you know, that we we wear that really can't be penetrated. So I wonder in these cases, how does it look to apply inquiry when when these baked in ideologies that seem to be predicated on truth? Right. Like I discovered truth. Now I know the truth before I didn't. But now I do. And I need to share it. I need to make sure other people see it. I think that it would be really helpful to try to see how you would work with that. Well, you know, I can share my experience. And let's say you've described it. I would share my experience, that experience as you described it. I would share that. And with all the wisdom and proof I've got, and they'll hear me or they won't. But my father's dying of cancer. My job is to love him. And that's the greatest power. That's all I've got. Now, I can go over his head once he hits that point where he can't argue. And let's say I believe it's not too late yet to save him. And then there's no one to stop me. Now, I can honor his wishes or I can take it over. Now, what is right for me, no one else can say. So I've got a dilemma and it's a choice I have to make. And I make it. I go with his wishes or I call in the doctors and say, you know, let's take care of this. Do what you can. And if he lives, he may thank me or he may curse me. Who knows? It could be. There's a reason he didn't want the medical, because he had an inkling that, you know, they were going to save him. He didn't necessarily want that either. So it's a don't know world where love is the ultimate say, right or wrong. If I go against it, I could be wrong. If I go with it, I could be wrong. So it always, you know, I'm, I'm, this is on me. This is on me. But I can tell you, if, if I really believe it's the right thing to do, I'm left without guilt. I've got to know myself up well. And to know myself that well, I need to really know, why am I not okay if my father dies? Does my life depend on him being alive to say I love you? Or to be here for me? Or to spare me from grief of his death? I mean, I really need to know myself. Is this about his life or mine? And then that really opens the field for making the decision that is for me to make if I have that authority. I'm left with it. So looking at the assumptions that are beneath even these decisions, right, that keeping him alive is necessarily the... You know, is this for me or him? Who is this really about? You know, people would say, why didn't you save your dad? Or why did you save your dad? And it's, oh, it was all about me. You know, it was nothing about him. Yeah, he's still suffering, but I just couldn't live without him. It's just like it's something to know as we're going into those things. And I've found that self-inquiry drops us into those places that are stunningly shocking. And expose these covert exchanges, right, where we imagine that we are serving another, helping another, saving another even. And what's actually going on, perhaps, is that we are serving ourselves, meeting our own needs. I would have to drop the perhaps. I want to know. I want to know. I'm in. I'm in. I'm not guessing. It cost him his life, but I just couldn't live without him. And as it turns out, that's where I'm at anyway. He died. Owning it. Owning it. Owning it. But I can't own it if I'm all this guilt running in me. To own it is the absence of guilt. I mean, owning meaning owning your own truth, not the truth as you would want it to be or hope it would be or can prove it to be. But within ourselves, that's where it hits. That's where it hits. That's where it's you can't fool yourself. And we do it all our lives. So one would say we can fool ourselves, but no, we're not fooled. We're in pain, pain meaning suffering, confused, hurt. So CMOS has become quite a thing lately, and I love myself a therapeutic food over a supplement any day. But there's CMOS, and then there's my fave, Samadhi CMOS. So most people don't realize that mineral deficiency is one of the biggest drivers of imbalance, whether you're experiencing that as fatigue or weight gain or cravings. So unless you're growing your own food, it doesn't contain almost by definition the spectrum of minerals that our ancestors enjoyed. So that's why I am excited about Samadhi Seamoss. It's not your typical store-bought rope farm Seamoss. It 100 wild and it harvested by Caribbean divers from super clean waters ensuring purity and also ecological respect It contains over 90 bioavailable minerals and vitamins many of which are hard to get even in a very high quality diet Plus it a natural collagen booster and prebiotic making it an effortless way to support the gut your skin and your overall vitality So I take one to two tablespoons a day in warm water that I also put a little bit of sea salt in and lime or lemon. Key lime is actually my favorite. And I noticed a shift in my digestion after just a week. The best part is that it tastes like nothing, which makes it super easy to add to your routine. So if you want to experience the benefits yourself, Samadhi is offering 10% off with the code Kelly10. Check out the link in show notes and enjoy. I remember at the height of my activism, you know, where I'm living in this world where I feel I've collected so much knowledge and awareness around how to navigate, right? So, you know, from what products to buy to how to, you know, be in a human body to how to live in this polluted world, et cetera. And my daughter, she was like a tween at the time. And she said to me, I don't know what I was talking about, like chemtrails or something anyway. And she said to me, mama, you're afraid of so many things. I mean, well, I felt like Joan of Arc, right? Like I felt like I was very like maybe the world or whatever I imagined was going on. And she feel like her animal body could feel the fear that I hadn't accessed necessarily because I hadn't asked the deep enough questions around why I was doing this and move beyond the assumption that it was to serve humanity. And I found that fear underneath. And through inquiry that you're referencing, I also was able to recognize that I really I can't possibly know that it's better for somebody to live the way I live, including a child, right? Like out there, because I was very concerned with the children of the world at various points in my career. And I did get to the place where I could own, as you're saying, that I really, I can't possibly know what is best for somebody else. I can make a compelling argument, and I've tried, you know, with many scientific references, But I can't possibly actually know. And so that certainty melting away, it's quite vulnerable. It's quite freeing to understand, you know, not to be the authority, but to be the open-minded one. And that is the gift of an open mind. Right. It's different than just bypassing, right? And it's different than just superficially engaging. you're actually suggesting that you hyper engage, that you go quite deep so that you can explore all of the recesses of what might be tinkering around in there. You're not suggesting that you just have some Pollyanna-ish relationship. The extreme opposite. So as I mentioned, I think the higher level mastery is in the direct relational realm, right? So your husband, your children, your own parents. and the responsibility that you suggest, not that you suggest, but that I think emerges as an epiphenomenon of this work is to really see that you're in charge of your experience, right? And there's, I remember something, I've listened to so, so many of your books and recordings and I remember there's something that you said that has stuck with me to this day and I reference it often when I speak to other moms about what happens when your kids' socks are on the floor. And it's that single sentiment has influenced my experience as a mother of now teenagers immeasurably. Living is an example, isn't it? And then they follow or not. Or not. Right. But the punishment is gone and the guilt for having deemed out the punishment is gone. And manipulation. Yes. And the bribes. energy. So, you know, I don't have any chores in my house. And, you know, for those who don't know, what you essentially said was, you know, if your kid's socks are on the floor and it's bothering you that their socks are on the floor because maybe you asked them to clean up or they didn't listen to you or whatever, pick them up because you are the one who wants the socks off the floor. Yeah. I'm the one with the problem. My daughter had zero problem with her socks on the floor. I was the one with the problems. It was like, duh. You know, I picked them up and I was happy and she was happy. And eventually she learned to pick up her socks. Or not. Or not. And if it happened. Yeah. You expose these assumptions. Yeah. Like I wouldn't expect it. Amazing. And perhaps, you know, one of your more famous sentiments is that, you know, if you think that somebody needs therapy, maybe you do. It's some paraphrase. Yeah, it could be anything. You know, if I'm so wise to see what they need, you know, let me try it on. Yeah. Where are similarities in my own life that I could look to? and with a more productive outcome. Yes, yes. And I've, I referenced, you know, a related, I guess, orientation or practice. I call it wearing the villain crown, right? So like, how is it that you can try on being as bad and wrong as you imagine, right? Somebody else to be. And you talk about how you say, and you've referenced this in our conversation, that defense is the first act of war. And so if you're committed to inserting a pause, at least, between the impulse to defend yourself against somebody else's either allegations about you or perhaps proving how you are different from somebody that you're judging, then there is something that opens up in this field of personal responsibility for your experience. Truly. Yeah. And I'd love to just talk a little bit about like, to me, that's the most fertile spiritual soil there is. Like, I'm not sure there's anything that is more powerful than to take a good look at how it is that you are condemning somebody else to badness and wrongness and just see if there's anywhere inside of yourself. Yeah. And I always, you know, I understand if I believed what they believed, how could I not be the same? And then I look to myself, you know, am I living what I'm accusing them of living? Let's say they're not telling the truth. And, you know, I look to myself, where is it that I'm not telling the truth? And I start, you know, with in that same focus. What am I accusing her of with no proof whatsoever other than maybe hearsay? You know, I just keep looking to myself. Now, if someone says, Byron Katie, you hurt my feelings. I didn't hurt your feelings. I just said that, you know, that's defense. But if someone says, Byron Katie, you hurt my feelings, I immediately become curious and fascinated. I want to know. So now we're connected as opposed to separate, and there's no trickery going on to be connected. It is just a natural, open mind that pupils in life have the privy of living out of. It's fascinating. It's like I didn't know I was that, but that person holds the information that could wake me up to it because I cannot change what I'm unaware of. And what I'm defending, it's like locking myself in a closet. It is a mind that is shut down. So I say defense is the first act of war, the war against the self and so much of the world that we have a problem with. In the zeitgeist of interest in boundaries, however, I hear a lot of folks saying, well, I'm standing up for myself. This is how I protect myself. This is how I hold my boundaries. And yet there is an insistence that somebody else change, that somebody else do differently. Yeah, I see boundaries as an act of selfishness. Tell me more about that. Well, you know, if someone says, for example, I'm a terrible person and I defend, you know, they've crossed my boundary when they call me a selfish person. But living out of, you know, this childlike at 82 years old, this childlike curiosity, someone says, Byron Katie, you lied. I'm going to say specifically point that out to me. You are holding something that maybe I missed. And then they can call me on it. I am awake to what I was asleep to. Now, that opens one's life up to a life of gratitude. If you want to meet a friend, hang out with an enemy, they hold all the cards if you're open to how to understand the self. It takes a very open mind, and the ego is going to, you know, ego's not going to take it lightly. That's why it takes an open mind, because the ego eventually begins to trust you're not trying to kill it. That's the absence of war, you know, not trying to kill the ego, but to understand it. I see the ego as a terrified child that we're trying to kill. And so, of course, you know, it gets stronger and stronger and stronger and to see the enemy as a child as we sit in self-inquiry it's a respectful thing to move that ego mind, that ego thinking from your head to paper and then it's like lovemaking literally to look at the ego and it's like Sina just not trying to kill it but sweetheart is it true? Because the ego is not I and so eventually that that lost child. I mean, ego is a state of mind. It's bodiless. And it's always trying to keep the I, I am this body, this personality alive. But to, when it understands you're not trying to kill it, it finds a home in your heart. And that is the end of duality. It's where the mind and the heart are one. Heart meaning humanity, humanity, humane, humanity. Yes. I wonder, from your perspective, having witnessed so many move through this sort of, you know, the light bulb moment. I particularly am a fan of the turnarounds that we were, you know, sort of touching on because, you know, it just cuts right to the heart of the possibility that it's the literal inverse, that the truth is the literal inverse. It's a shift in perspective. Yes, which is probably the defining feature of our human experience. It's perspective, right? And so when you're looking at how to apply this in real life with real relationships as a way of being in the world, how often do you see that there is like this still this separation between the mental, psychological realm and the emotional embodiment realm such that the addiction, like literal addiction, physiologic addiction to the drama triangle. takes over again, right? Because I don't know if you know the phrase from theater called the fourth wall, like breaking the fourth wall. But I sometimes think about when we get this real, that the acting potential, the roles that we're playing, the game of you be the villain, I'll be the victor, or sometimes vice versa, right? I've spent many a moment as the villain in my life and enjoyed it, right? So, but those roles fall away when you can humble yourself in this way, you can become this vulnerable, you can become this interested in the truth, as you say. It's almost like the whole theatrical performance of this life dissolves and it's less compelling maybe on some level. It's less exciting. It's less dramatic. There's less of that familiar, you know, hero's arc. And so I wonder how addicted we are to that play and how often you see people kind of swinging back into the familiar shoes of their dramatic roles. Well, I think that it's, it is so compelling, you know, it's ego driven and, uh, no no ego no world you know um I am as I believe myself to be and that you know it the ego world But you just said something that I just found so fascinating. I wanted to respond to this. There's nothing more exciting than truth. And the ego would not, would make sure that we don't understand that. So the ego doesn't sleep. You know, it's in when we're asleep at night and we're not dreaming, you know, and we wake up. And the first thing is I, I am, I'm awake. I'm late for work. I want coffee. I'm, you know, the kids are late for school. And I, I, I, I, I. And were we okay at night not dreaming with the ego without ego? We're fine. And you could just ponder it like a death, and people fear death. They fear nothing. The ego is awe. But when the ego matches the heart, there is a cohabitation there. That the drama, as the ego would have it be, cannot compete with that kind of excitement and curiosity and the power of love, you know, to quote that coined phrase. It's rarely, it's a road less traveled. But no one, no one in my experience is more enlightened than another. We're all equal in that, but the ego, oh, you know, this is, I refer to this world as earth school. The ego is a state of mind, and we're asleep to it. And until we wake up to it, it looks like a lot of pain in this world. This world has a reputation of a world of suffering. And we can flip that, and self-inquiry can give us that. But it is a practice. It's a practice in stillness and takes a very open mind. but no one has to do it. So, you know, in earth, we do have that option. And I think, right, one of the sort of meta layers of this is once you start to see from this perspective that there isn't such a thing as a better person than another person, once you see from the perspective that nobody else is responsible for my experience and all of the layers that unfold when you ask these questions, like a loophole, maybe, is that then you start to look at people who are not asking these questions and feel superior to them. Oh, no. You sit and self-inquire for a while. You understand why people would not sit and self-inquiry. There's such a shift in it. I mean, it's such a shift in it. It's like, how can a kind of stillness and happiness that's not exciting, you know, it's just this stillness and this have to compete with that kind of aliveness and passion and everything. It's It's why people, it's difficult to just sit in and develop a practice of stillness and self-inquiry. So I just wouldn't expect anyone to do it. I marvel at people who do take it on because it's nothing I would expect, but it's something I certainly hear to pass on as an option. Yes, the gentle offer. But the world lives in me as I understand it to be. So what would I do? I cut my own throat. You know, I believe in freedom and the absence of suffering as a given. But how can we claim that when the ego is in control? It wouldn't be honest to even claim it. It would be guessing. In summary, would you say that, you know, based on your experience and the extraordinary path that you've walked, that you have a perspective on incarnation, why we're here, what the nature of spirituality is? I know that, I mean, you strike me as one of the more humble folks out there wielding one of the more powerful offerings that exists. And I never really hear you talk about, you know, awakening the path to enlightenment. This is how you, you know, ascend. I saw on the floor one day, you know, I believed myself in and I didn't do it on purpose. As I lay on the floor, you know, I woke up on the floor. I was sleeping on the floor. My self-esteem was so low, I didn't believe I even deserved a bed to sleep in. So I sleep on the floor and I opened my eyes for no reason. It's like it opened its eyes. And then I saw the light coming through a window and I couldn't see it without a name. It took that. So that was that is creation. so I light, window, ceiling floor I mean it was all there the ego just was it's like I was born into it and that's where this self-inquiry offer it was born there and anyone with an open mind can do it it's not something I would expect anyone to do but if the pain If the pain is just unbearable for those of us that are just curious or the pain is just too much, then I say, judge your neighbor, write it down, ask for questions and turn it around or not. And just try it on as a way. It's medicine. And you were speaking of medicine earlier. And as we become free from the cause of suffering, which is what we're thinking and believing in any given moment about the world and the people in it and ourselves, we question our thoughts. Our physical health shifts its medicine. And to do that with what you were speaking of and those things we consider wise that work in our experience and self-inquiry, they work together. It's radical. It's a radical shift to sit in self-inquiry. And the choices we make become not something we have to do. It's something we're compelled in a most loving way to do. It's just the right thing to do. And there's no idea that would stop us. And it's as simple as take out the trash, you know, pack the children's lunch and have a good life. So it sounds like, you know, in your experience, I can only imagine what your average Wednesday looks like. I imagine you like frolicking in a field of daisies or something. I don't know. But I imagine that the concept of problems and the currency of complaint fall away. Right. Maybe not immediately, but they start to fall away. They do, because there is nothing to argue with with right action. Like maybe walking through the kitchen and there's a cup, maybe Stephen left on the counter. And I don't think, oh, he should have, could have, would have. It's just right to be at peace. You know, it's just chopped wood, carry water. And there's, you know, I just, I pick it up. I rinse it, wash it, put it in the sink. You know, it's in the in the drainer and and go on with my day. And it's like a walk in the park is like a walk through the kitchen. And it's it's it's you just do the right thing because there's nothing inside that would argue with it and say it's not fair. It's not right. Why did he do it? It's gone. It's just chop wood, carry waters, as the Buddhists would say. I think that's a Buddhist thing. Yes, I actually use that same phrase often because it's orienting, right, to what's actually in front of you versus in the imaginal realm of the past and the future. I wonder if there is anything that you want to share that, again, having walked the path that you've walked is alive for you these days and alive for you now and that feels exciting. Or is it just moment by moment for you? All the unknown. And we live in the unknown. It's just the ego that thinks it knows. So that open mind, just open, you know, just curious, childlike mind, then it's really a maturity. But that don't know world, when you understand the nature of everything, that it is good without opposite. opposite beyond theory you know and self-inquiry gives us that that um that living proof that other people aren't offering up it's just in ourselves where it shows up to understand that it's it's maybe what people would refer to as non-duality there's um there's only beauty and the ego that would argue with that in its attempt to survive as I physical am. But a rebrand of uncertainty. That's a beautiful one. I love this. I've spent quite some time, not as long as you have, quite some time studying what it feels like to be around somebody who is in possession of themselves, who seems to have transformed their victim consciousness to something else, right? Some other maturational destination. And I've come to see relaxation as one of the most meaningful indicators that that transition is either underway or has occurred. And, you know, you strike me as an extraordinarily relaxed woman. Yeah, it's a good life. Yes. And it's probably because, as you depicted with the cup on the counter, you care so much about your experience and your energy that you're not going to capitulate to the habit of discharging it in these conflicts and tensions and these old habits of warfare, really. And I love that you use that. What happens is it ceases to be of interest. It's war. Like that cup on the counter, it's not fair that I should have to pick it up. So the absence of that is just picking up the cup, not because I have to. But it's, you know, in the language we'd say it's the right thing to do. I'm the one with the problem. I'm the one that thinks it belongs clean and in the cupboard. And so it's self-serving all time, which is the eagle's point of view. But as it turns out, it is I want what's right and I'm not wanting that on purpose. It's just it's easy, you know, easy, meaning the absence of war. And it's the opposite of stupid. It's healthy. It turns out to be user friendly. I love it. Well, you have so generously made available and offered the work for so many years. And, you know, we'll make sure that for the odd person who hasn't accessed it or worked with it, that they know exactly where to find you. And I am just so delighted that you walk this earth. I'm inspired by your humility and, again, that relaxation that I feel coming off of you energetically. It really feels like a template to me and like a North Star. So I'm so grateful to you. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you. You are a power source. And thank you for all that you give and gift. And, gosh, I've enjoyed our time together. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.