Special episode: Rachel Maddow in conversation with Steven J. Ross, author of 'The Secret War Against Hate

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Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. B21. Hey, thanks for joining us. I am very excited to share this with you. I recently got to sit down with one of my favorite people, someone from whom I have learned a ton and who has become a real friend. So much of what I have written about and podcasted about and talked about in the news over the last few years about fighting fascism here in America, so much of that stuff that I have learned, I have learned from a man named Stephen J. Ross. Stephen J. Ross was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in 2018 for his incredible, just shocking book, Hitler in Los Angeles. And now he's got a new book, which is just as jaw-dropping as that one. The new book is called The Secret War Against Hate, American Resistance to Anti-Semitism and White Supremacy. Resistance is the key word. I devoured this book. It picks up right at the end of World War II and goes through this incredible period in U.S. history that's very poorly understood. Stephen J. Ross is an incredible historian. More than that, he is an incredible storyteller. He joined me live in front of a live audience at the 92nd Street Y in New York City. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm very excited to be here. Okay, so I'm going to read you a tiny little squib from Stephen's book, and then I'm going to say a couple of things, and then Stephen and I are going to talk, and then we're going to take your questions. So there's no surprises. The Second American Civil War began on the evening of October 20th, 1945. As millions of veterans came back from World War II, Ku Klux Klan leaders sounded a battle cry to preserve their beloved white Protestant nation from its many enemies. 55-year-old obstetrician and Ku Klux Klan Grand Dragon Samuel Green warned Atlanta's returning warriors, white supremacy is threatened. America, he said, is calling every white man who has red blood into the fight. Samuel Green, who proudly supported a Hitler-style mustache, renewed the fight for racial purity that balmy October night in Georgia. He did so by holding the region's first major cross burning since Pearl Harbor. Again, this was 1945. Patriotic clansmen had halted cross burnings during the war, Green explained, because it was necessary, he said, that all factions unite to win the war. But that night in October 1945, Klansmen signaled the start of a new domestic war by lighting a gigantic fiery cross that stretched 300 yards across the top of Stone Mountain, Georgia, and could be seen 60 miles away. To ensure that no disruptions would occur, Green asked an Atlanta policeman and loyal Klan enforcer, John Nash, and his fellow Klansmen slash cops to guide traffic and preserve order. that day 300 men many of them wearing their US Army uniforms paid their $10 initiation fee and took the Klan oath to uphold the tenets of the Christian religion the maintenance of white supremacy and the principles of true Americanism witnessing that ceremony were 3,000 men and women who had driven from nearby states to celebrate the Klan's October 1945 reviving Also observing the evening's events was a Southern journalist named Stetson Kennedy, posing as a sympathetic Klansman. As he watched the cross burning atop Stone Mountain, Stetson Kennedy worried that a new race war was brewing, a national war that would, as it had in 1861, pit American against American. Kennedy, the Southern journalist, would do all he could to stop that from happening. And thus starts the drama in Stephen Ross's new book. Everybody has heard of the Klan, but it turns out that the Klan is part of a big, unhappy, very dysfunctional family. The Klan has lots of siblings and lots of inbred cousins and lots of unloved and neglected children. And they are groups whose names you might have heard once, or maybe you've never heard them, but you definitely never remembered them all. The National States Rights Party. Not to be confused with the States Rights Voters League. Not to be confused with the National Socialist League. not to be confused with the National Socialist Party of America, not to be confused with the National Socialist White People's Party, not to be confused with the White American Nationalist Party, not to be confused with the Christian Nationalist Party, the American National Party, the National Renaissance Party, the American Nazi Party, the American First Party, the Christian Anti-Jewish Party, the Stoner Anti-Jewish Party, which is not at all what you think, the National Committee to Free America from Jewish Domination. That was a real subtle one. The National Gentile League, the United White Party, the White Party of America, the Colombians, the National Alliance. I could go on and on and on and on. But the point is, part of the reason the far right has been a little bit hard to grasp in our time, a little hard to get our heads around, despite its very consequential recent ascendance. is because I believe the proper nouns associated with it, for the most part, are very forgettable. They mean nothing to us. The how-did-we-get-here history of the far, far-right in America really is a musical chair set of unfamous characters and lookalike uniforms and insignias and newsletters and paramilitaries and mad bombers and street thugs and fraudsters and perennial candidates and third parties and militias, and they all seem amorphous. They slide back and forth organizationally from one similar sounding creepy outlet to another, to another, to another. And that makes it really easy. It really makes it tempting to write them all off as impermanent and therefore unimportant, as just crackpots and hoodlums. That dismissal, it turns out, is a bad idea. The historian Stephen J. Ross has done more than anyone in this time in America to disambiguate the individuals who have built this movement and done its work, their aims and their crimes and their tactics and their formations, so we can see and understand how they work and how they have succeeded and failed. But most importantly, what Stephen J. Ross has done in Hitler in Los Angeles, his Pulitzer Prize finalist previous book, and with this book tonight, The Secret War Against Hate, what Stephen J. Ross has done, the reason you are here tonight to hear about it. Most of all, what he has given us in his work is a widening of the aperture to broaden out our own view so we see the proverbial forest here and not just the weirdo individual trees that it is made up of. What Stephen J. Ross is now teaching us, now showing us in his latest work, is that there is something that coheres out of all of these pieces. There is something legible and important here, and we should understand it to be a single and continuing political formation. That is very important. And it is the violent American far right, the persistent and violent American far right. The closer you look to understand the different groups, the different characters, the different clans, the different crimes, the more Stephen Ross proves that this is all one movement, one long-standing and now newly very powerful American political faction. Far-right, anti-black, anti-Jewish, anti-gay, anti-minority, not just illiberal but anti-liberal, authoritarian, bluntly white supremacist, and always irreducibly violent. America, constitutionally, is a multiracial democracy in which we are all promised in writing and in law equal protection under the law and equal rights. And alongside that, there is a persistent political faction, a longstanding and poorly understood, poorly studied and often dismissed violent political movement in our country that has never stopped trying to end that. That has never stopped trying to end our multiracial democracy protected in law by individual and equal rights. they want to return us to something more like what the Confederacy fought for and lost. And that movement has been seeking since the end of World War II in what Stephen J. Ross calls the second American Civil War they have been seeking two things. Number one, to unite with each other. To defeat what Steve calls their too many furors problem. To unite with each other, to unite under one leader. and number two, to ascend to real political power, which means, yes, it took a long while, but they are having a good few years right now. Maybe they're best ever. The secret war against hate is about that movement, how we got it, how it took root and then failed, how it grew and then failed, how it metastasized and then failed again all leading up to what it is right now Happily it is also the story of the shockingly effective controversial and mostly forgotten tactics that have been used against them used against them by some very tough, very brave Americans who came up with this strategy against these groups on their own and who again and again risked their lives for it. These are Americans whose names might otherwise be lost to history without Stephen J. Ross to tell us their stories and to show us what they did. Please join me in welcoming to the stage my friend, distinguished professor of history at the University of Southern California, Stephen J. Ross. Well, that was a nice introduction. And I just want to say before we start, I don't want you to be nervous. Every Monday, you look into a camera, there are no people. And now you have 900 people here. Why do you think I just changed my glasses? Damn it. Because now you're an invisible blob. If you're further away than my wrist, you're gone. Steve, did I get anything wrong in that summation of your argument? We think of the, some people think about the Klan in its iteration in the 1920s. I think a lot of people think about the Klan in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Some people think of it in terms of Reconstruction. I don't think that most Americans think of the immediate post-World War II years as being a huge high point for the Klan. What happened that night in October 1945 with that huge cross burning? What was going on there? Many of the men and some women who went to fight in World War II went to fight as patriots, but they did not sign up because they wanted to fight for democracy against fascism and Nazism. They weren't trying to defeat Hitler, Tojo Mussolini. They went to fight because Japan bombed us. And if you're a good old boy, and the good old boys we're talking about here are the 11 Confederate states across the southwest up to California. And they went to war claiming they were patriots. And when they came back, they felt they were betrayed by Congress, by what they referred to as the Jew deal. They were insulted and offended by what they call President Rosenfeld. And they came back, and I call them the betrayed generation. And what they said is, and here's what I would say for all of you. If you think this is a kind of clown show that's lasted all these decades, you're really wrong. They are dedicated Americans up to right now who believe they were betrayed by our government. Why were they betrayed? Because while they were fighting at war, the government made it easier for Jews and blacks to compete for housing and jobs. And they came back and they discovered black people were moving into their neighborhoods. Black people were taking their jobs. And they said before the war, we had no trouble with Jews and blacks because they knew their place. But now they've come back from war. They're demanding all these things and everything has been turned upside down. And we are going to restore the nation to what it was founded upon as a white Christian, white Christian nation. Have you ever considered surrounding your house with a moat to keep it safe? Would you hire a professional wrestler as a bodyguard for your car? Okay, maybe you wouldn't go that far. But if you'd go to great lengths to avoid dealing with your insurance company, you might have Insuranoia. And if you have Insuranoia, you should have NJM Insurance. They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders. Start relieving your Insuranoia today at NJM.com. With the Vivgard Hytrulo, Efgard Tigamod Alpha, and Hyaluronidase QVFC pre-filled syringe, self-injection is in your hands. It's your treatment routine. Use at the time and same day each week. Take the pre-filled syringe with you on vacation. Or have it handy for cozy staycations. For more information, visit livevividly.com. That's L-I-V-E-V-Y-V-I-D-L-Y dot com. Brought to you by Argenics. Memorial Day weekend is almost here, and it's time to kick off summer right. When I'm getting ready for the first big weekend of summer, Total Wine & More is my go-to. I'll grab refreshing beers, wines, and hard seltzers for the cooler. With everything that goes into summer, it's nice knowing you're getting the lowest prices. Total Wine & More. Your Memorial Day made easy. Shop Total Wine & More in-store or online. Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. Must be 21. You focus on what you call four godfathers of white supremacy. I think of the four, George Lincoln Rockwell from the American Nazi Party is probably the only one who counts as famous. The only white people might have heard of. But you really land on this guy, Jesse B. Stoner or J.B. Stoner, describing him as having the largest impact on American white supremacy of anybody of multiple generations in the 20th century. Can you explain who Stoner was and why he's so important to understand? Right. Well, I have the far right from 1945 to today has had many different leaders and one could have written books about a whole bunch of them. But the four people I chose to write about, Jesse B. Stoner is one of them, Emery Burke, the head of the New York Nazi Party, post-war party founded in New York City in 1949, James Madol. and then Rockwell. These were unusual people because they all knew each other. They were all rivals, and yet they all worked together from 1945 until their death, all of them. And Jesse B. Stoner, at the age of 18, grew up in Tennessee. He suffered polio as a young man. He actually wrote to German doctors before the war asking if they could fix his leg, and they promised that yes once they conquer America they will come over and fix his leg and he had it he was at 18 the youngest clan Clegal which is the organizer for the state of Tennessee and while he was a young man he was going to Atlanta at the same time the clan was reviving there was a group that was even further to the right than the clan called the Colombians and the Colombians were saying their leader emory burke said i am going to finish the job that hitler began but i'm going to do it with much more modern techniques i'm going to exterminate every jew in america and i'm going to send every black man woman and child to africa and jesse b stoner had been attending their meetings eventually they were put down by spies from New York from a group called the Non-Secretarian Anti-Nazi League, which is one of three groups running spy operations, along with the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee. When the Colombians were broken apart and their leaders sent to jail, Jesse B. Stoner said, I've learned a lot now and I'm going to go out on my own. And the first party he started had the very subtle name of the stoner anti-Jewish party. And when that name didn't click, he changed it to the Christian anti-Jewish party. And he continued the Colombian mantra that I'm going to get rid of every Jew. We're going to exterminate every Jew in America, but we're going to do it much better than Hitler did. We're going to use every modern technique we can. we're going to electrocute them, gas them, firing squad. But his main appeal, what really got the attention of a lot of people is he said, when the Jews are dead, the Christian anti-Jewish party is going to take all the Jewish wealth in America and distribute it among every Christian. And every Christian in the United States is going to be fantastically wealthy once we do this. And I just should add, when Stoner was part of the Colombians and they tried to unite with the Ku Klux Klan, the Klan said, no, we are not going to form an alliance because you are too extreme in your racial views for us. This is admittedly a very small part of the book, but I found it deeply satisfying. Can you tell us about the part where Georgia's assistant attorney general punched out one of the Colombians in court? Yeah, the Georgia assistant attorney general, Daniel Duke, no relation to David Duke, had been an assistant attorney general right before the war charged with putting down the Klan. He then enlisted in the army. He refused to go in as an officer and he wound up as a sergeant. And when he came back, he was put back in charge of trying to put down the Klan. And he was also then put down in charge of getting rid of the Colombians. And the Colombian leader, Emery Burke, who was a southerner who liked to speak with a British accent. And Duke was being harassed constantly by Emery Burke. And at one point, you're in the courthouse, and Burke starts accusing him, you're a coward, you're this. You've got to be part Jewish and part black. And he just kept at him and at him. And finally, the attorney general wheeled around and punched him out, knocked him out, knocked him down on the floor. And when Emery Burke got it back up and said to the judge, did you see that? Did you see that? the judge said, I must have looked away at that. Tell me about the spying operations, particularly by the non-sectarian anti-Nazi League, a group that doesn't exist anymore, but maybe could stood to be revived. We could stand to have a non-sectarian anti-Nazi League in America these days. What were their tactics against groups like the National Renaissance Party but also the Columbians Yeah Well Stetson Kennedy was born in Florida As I write in the book he was born at the wrong time to the wrong family in the wrong place His family had been Confederate leaders and his uncle was the one of the Klan leaders in Florida, very well known. And Stetson Kennedy was too small to be drafted, but all his friends were drafted. and he said, I've got to do something. They're all dodging bullets. Well, I'm willing to dodge Klan bullets. And so he took himself from Florida to Georgia where he enrolled in the Klan under a fictitious name related saying that he was the nephew of this famous Klan leader. And he then met James Sheldon from the non-sectarian anti-Nazi League. who also asked him, will you work for us? And he would go to Klan meetings, and later he went to the Columbian meetings. He joined the Columbians as well, and he would send in weekly reports. He would write down after every meeting, he would go back to his room, and he's a journalist. He was writing articles under the name Stetson Kennedy, but he never had a picture taken, so no one knew who Kennedy was. And eventually he writes to Sheldon in New York saying, look, I just went on a run, a ammunition run with one of our the meanest person I've ever met in my life who would cut your throat as soon as look at you. And they've now bought dynamite as well as rifles. And they are planning to blow up the Southern Baptist Convention. And we need to do something. And he said, you've got to send in agents because this is getting serious now. Now, this isn't, you know, for some of you out there who think, well, these right wing groups, maybe they're Keystone cops. A few of them, you know, a few members were, but they were dead, literally deadly serious. And so New York sent down two spies, Mario Buzzy and Rene Fruckbaum. Oh, Rene Fruckbaum. Rene Fruckbaum. So good. And they came down to meet with the Colombian leaders. and they said, look, we are organizing the Italian fascists in New York City and we want to make an alliance with you because you are preaching the same message as we are. Get rid of Jews and blacks. And we'd like to partner with you. And the Colombians were ecstatic that they could now have a stronghold in Judah America. You may not know, but New York City was Judah America. they um and renee walks in and she says well i'm an independently wealthy new yorker and i'm bored with everything so i've come down to help you too when i see your headquarters or your files they're a mess they're just a mess you know what i've done secretarial work i'll get all your files organized and so for the next three nights she went in after everyone went home and she did She got all the files organized. And when they came back, they said, oh, wow, this is unbelievable. Everything's in order. It's filed right. What they didn't know, and this is right out of James Bond, is every night she would pull out her cigarette lighter, which was a camera. And she photographed over 200 of the documents. and when she wrote actually she called Sheldon from Atlanta told her what she had and he said get back here immediately they went back to New York she said my mother's ill went back they processed the 200 pages and then they sent it to the Attorney General Assistant Attorney General and that evidence was enough to basically get rid of the charter of the Colombians who had been chartered as an educational institution and the two leaders, Loomis and Burke, were sent to jail. And that was the end of the Columbians. So you know that uneasy, anxious feeling you get when you think about dealing with your insurance company? Well, there's actually a term for that. It's called insuranoia. And if that sounds like something you're way too familiar with, you should really think about getting NJM insurance. They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders, like providing dedicated reps whose priority is you, and that means you'll find more peace of mind with them. Relieve your insuranoia with NJM Insurance by visiting njm.com for a quote today. With the Vivgard Hytrulo, Efgar Tegamod Alpha, and Hyaluronidase QVFC pre-filled syringe, self-injection is in your hands. It's your treatment routine. Use at the time and same day each week. Take the pre-filled syringe with you on vacation. Or have it handy for cozy staycations. For more information, visit livevividly.com. That's L-I-V-E-V-Y-V-I-D-L-Y dot com. Brought to you by Argenics. Memorial Day weekend is almost here, and it's time to kick off summer right. When I'm getting ready for the first big weekend of summer, Total Wine & More is my go-to. I'll grab refreshing beers, wines, and hard seltzers for the cooler. With everything that goes into summer, it's nice knowing you're getting the lowest prices. Total Wine & More. Your Memorial Day made easy. Shop Total Wine & More in-store or online. Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. Must be 21. Can you talk a little bit about the effect of those tactics from the ADL, from the Anti-Nazi League, with the Colombians, with the Klan, with all the different groups that they infiltrated? And the stories are unbelievably dramatic. But the effect, the sort of knock-on effect, the ripple effect on the far right of those operations against them being so effective, does it undermine their effectiveness, their ability to work together, their ability to plan long term? It seems to drive a real schismatic and sort of purge-driven internal discipline that was very unhealthy for those groups in the long run just to have had them infiltrated successfully in some key cases. Yeah, and word would get out. All three groups were sending spies down. And here's one of the few things that actually got the proverbial hair on the back of my neck to stand up was in May 1945. May 8th, by the way, is VE Day, victory in Europe and my birthday. well actually it's significant my parents were both Holocaust survivors and imagine they went from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belzen to Zaltzweidel my father from the Warsaw Ghetto to Treblinka and eventually to Dachau and four years to the day after the war they gave birth to a child that they never thought they'd have well what was heroic about these groups is the fact that they were running in in may the first week of may right before the war ended the three offices of the adl the american jewish committee and the anti-nazi league were in midtown manhattan literally just a few blocks from one another. And I came across the three memos they wrote exactly the same week. And the three memos said the same exact thing, which is we can defeat any one group, even the Ku Klux Klan. But what we really are afraid of is one day all these scattered far right groups are going to find out a way to communicate instantaneously. And once they're able to do that, we don't know if we can stop them. And our second great fear is that some of these people from these far, far right groups are going to make their way into one of the two mainstream parties and take these far right ideas and move them from the margins to the mainstream. And then every American will be in trouble. But these people felt they had to do something, the three groups and the men and women who went to spy for them, who are almost all Christian. And even though they were spying, they knew they were spying for Jewish groups. They never felt they were working for the Jews. They were working for America because they argued in America, it's not okay for another American to kill an American because of their race, religion, their ethnicity, or their immigration status. Steve, I want to ask you about violence and the tactical role of violence for these guys. How many bombings do you think J.B. Stoner, Jesse Stoner was involved in in the South? Close to 100. Jesse B. Stoner was the leading bomb expert in the South. He was known as the mastermind. He would help groups, tell them how to make bombs. He would actually go to local communities and on the back of a truck, he would give them instructions on how to make bombs. There was, I think, between 54 and 59, there were something like 80 bombs that went off around the South. And they would bomb synagogues. They would bomb churches, black churches. They would bomb the homes of ministers. And Jesse Stoner, when the National States Rights Party started, said, we are the only ones who can stop the bombing. You got to vote for us because we can actually stop it. What he didn't say is, well, we're the ones doing the bombings. So, yeah, we know how to stop all the bombings. And Stoner would outlive the three other, as I call them, godfathers of white supremacy. And on his deathbed in, I think it's 2002, he was asked by a reporter, do you regret anything you've ever done? And he said a man should never regret anything when he knows that everything he has done is right. And when you talk about these guys running for office, it's jarring because immediately you always go to the fact that they didn't get many votes. They didn't win. But it's also weird that they were running because they were explicitly anti-democracy. Right. In the very influential National Renaissance Bulletin, the newsletter of the National Renaissance Party here in New York, you describe it having on its masthead a quote from Hitler denigrating democracy. Right. And these guys are all very much in favor of an authoritarian type of government that would get rid of any of what we understand is the protections of our our republic. What I was interested in though is that they anti almost on a religious level It not that they just wanted a whites democracy They call themselves patriots They wrap themselves up in the flag They say they super Americans All their stupid party names have American and patriotic in them But they not talking about the American form of government just reserved for us. They want to abolish democracy and instead have an authoritarian leader. Why is that? Because democracy is a political system for weaklings. This is what they argued, that democracy was a system that had too many others in it. And that it is who built Western civilization. It was white Christian, white Anglo-Saxon Christians. And what we need is an autocracy. What we need, you know, not dissimilar to Lenin on the left who wanted, you know, his 10th, you know, the top 10% would be running the Russian government. People like James Madol in the National Renaissance, Party, Jesse B. Stoner, when they got into office, they basically wanted to undermine democracy, abolish democracy, and put in authoritarian leaders who would raise the standard of our government that we not be weaklings anymore. And also, they were in favor of what we now call trad wives, so that the Colombians, for example said if they get into power because they promised in 1946 so here's what you also have to we haven't talked about this 1946 atlanta they are marching down peach tree street the main street in atlanta in nazi uniforms they made their own nazi uniforms in the style of the hitler's ss and they were marching down those streets and they wanted true manhood again. And what they said is when we get into power, no woman can ever have a divorce. No woman can ever wear makeup and women should be at home taking care of the children. That is their job and to support their men. I have that in my notes as the Taliban issue. I'm going to ask one last question and then we have audience questions. And this is a little bit of a thought experiment, but you're very clear eyed, I think, and very forthcoming about the limitations of these groups, the blood curdling aims that they had, but also their inability to put it together to get as far down the road as they wanted to. So had these groups had high level validation from the highest levels of the United States government, if they had these groups that had that kind of validation and sort of ideological endorsement from the highest levels of the U.S. government, would that have supercharged their capabilities? Would that have made them more dangerous? Absolutely. And you referred to something in your introductory remarks, which is what I called the too many Führer problem. the reason that we didn't see these groups unite is in large part because every one of these groups and there were literally hundreds of them and in 19 the 1960s james sheldon estimated that there were roughly 10 million people in america who either belong to those groups or subscribe to their newsletters, their newspapers, whatever, 10 million. And the reason they never really united is because they kept calling for fascist unity. They had meetings, Washington, D.C., 1968, the Congress of Racial something or other, where they were all calling for unity. And they all wanted one head, but no one was willing to not be the Führer. Every one of them wanted a fascist front, but they wanted to be the Führer. And what changed all that was 2016, when they found one man they could all unite around. And they finally had a single Führer who in 2017, after Charlottesville, said there are good people on both sides. Now, I try to be an objective historian. I try to put my own prejudices aside. But here's what I want to tell you. If you're a fascist, you're not a good person. There are... There were no good people on the other side there, period. it. Striking that the Charlottesville event that we can all, the tiki torches on it, the name of that event was Unite the Right. That's it. It was yet another attempt. Yeah. All right. Audience questions. You're all not only very, very good looking, you're very, very smart and these are very, very good questions. What do you think is the most successful argument against the modern right and white supremacy for the younger generation? I find it difficult to argue against those who don't deeply understand the rights bigotry and the harm they're causing. It's a good question. I wish I had a full answer. What kind of I simply would ask, what kind of nation do you want to live in? What kind of country do you want? Do you want to support a group? One of the things I learned in writing this book is one of the things that these far right groups and particularly the militia movement, which really gets started in this country, after all these groups realize that they can't get Jews and blacks out of America, they either can't kill them or Jesse B. Stoner once offered. black people if you leave and we are in government we're going to give every black family ten thousand dollars and a cadillac if they go to africa these groups all believe the militia movement the core belief was christian identity which proclaims that jews are not the chosen people that anglo-saxons are the chosen people that jews are the offspring of Satan and Eve. And to kill a Jew is to do their unborn children a favor, because their children will never be baptized. And so they'll go to hell. And black people, they're not even people, they're mud people, as well as other people of color. And therefore, to kill a mud person is not to kill a human being. And to kill a Jew is to do them a favor. So I would ask young people, what do you think about that idea? Because that's what many of these far right people are saying. And they also want an end to democracy. Do you have any friends who are of color or are not Christian? Do you want to see them either being deported or killed? Because that's what these groups are still arguing for in the militia groups. And before I came here a few days ago, I googled Christian identity churches and Christian identity militia, and they're still all over the country. This is not dead. This is not dead. And I would simply ask young people, what kind of nation do you want? I think the solution is to talk about really obscure history stuff on cable news all the time. See if it catches on. See if it catches on. this is a very good question and i'm just going to preface it with another quote from your book you quote a reporter named albert deutsch in 1946 who's writing at the time about the colombians the colombians are in nazi uniforms in atlanta 1946 into 1947 by 1947 they're getting punched out in court but this is deutsch in 1946 there are great there are great numbers of young men like these, with poor moorings and no anchorage, who feel like outcasts, who feel that they have nothing to look forward to, whose natural craving for adventure is not socially directed into constructive channels, who have been poisoned by regional and national prejudices, who don't feel that they belong, who wish desperately to latch on to something concrete with the colorful overtones that youth yearns for. These men, he concluded, were, quote, duck soup for fascist demagogues. Put that in mind. One of our audience members asks, is there a common psychological trend that defines or binds together far-right hate groups? Well, amongst the men, it is a feeling that white men have been ignored in this country that a lot of these people who joined the young men who joined felt that they had missed out on world war ii they had missed out here's the irony they missed out serving their country they missed out on both serving their country as patriots and they missed out on the excitement what they thought was the excitement of war and they loved the idea of being able to carry weapons, beat up the enemy, even if the enemy was domestic. And also they found themselves, not unlike this present generation, having a hard time finding jobs. And many of them in the next decade, as the government began really starting to do some civil rights activism, they said, why is the government doing all this for black people and we're not getting anything? and this would go on for decades. It went on again after the Vietnam War. It was going on, I think, today while we're seeing all these militias, all these young men who are going around. You know, the Proud Boys like to say, we like to get tanked up on beer and then go out and beat the shit out of everyone. It gives us great pleasure. It makes them feel that they've done something. And again, what is really important is they see themselves as patriots. And if you don't understand that, then it's never going to end. Because somehow we have to reach youth of America to make them understand that hate is not patriotic. Killing is not patriotic. Steve Ross, thank you for enlightening us. Thank you, Rachel. And thank you all for coming. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you very, very much. Thank you. And if you have insured noia, you should have NJM insurance. They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders. Start relieving your insured noia today at NJM.com.