168: How the Masculine-Feminine Polarity Fixes Any Relationship | Alexandra Roxo & Eli Buren

Maybe you're doing a lot right. You're working out, you're eating decently, and still your body feels puffy, your hair feels thinner, and your skin feels creepy. You were taught to call that aging, but I am choosing not to. I don't believe that beauty is vanity. I believe it's a hobby. it's a skill it's something that you can practice and learn at any age so i'm hosting a free beauty backroom event for midlife women who are ready to glow up and feel leaner stronger and more radiant than they have perhaps in their entire life i will be sharing exactly what i've done over the past couple of months to do just that so 2026 is your rebrand year come play with me kellybrogenmd.com forward slash BB. On a date, our immature masculine would be like, oh, I've done this and I've done this. We're vying for love. And our masculine might be vying for love by saying, here's my job and my competency. And let me tell you about all the cool things that I've done. 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And if you want someone to run the numbers of your specific situation, book a free call with my friends Josh and Ken over at KellyBroganMD.com forward slash hole. Painful. Hi, and welcome back to Reclamation Radio. I'm Dr. Kelly Brogan. And today we dive into all things polarity, Eros, man-woman dynamics with two of my favorite teachers on the scene. And there are many out there selling their polarity wares. I've known Eli for many, many years, and he is here with his gorgeous partner, Alexandra. And we talk about the ways that we can recognize the immature expression in the feminine and in the masculine. What does it look like? How can we sort of know where we are on the spectrum of maturity of embodied man or woman? We talk about the roles that a man and that a woman can choose to play in their domestic life and how to translate polarity teachings into the household. Like, what does it actually look like? And we talk about polarity for parents, what it looks like when you are in a domesticated relationship and you have children and you also understand the power of these simple moment to moment practices that can generate connection and erotic energy in a couple. and how to use those practices to even transmit some of the wisdom that we have worked so hard to gain access to, to our children. I hope you enjoy. And you can also learn about how to work with them in real life person, which is something I had the pleasure of experiencing a few months ago. And it is absolutely game changing. So enjoy. All right. Welcome to the show. Eli and Alexandra. Hello, Kelly. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having us. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is such a powerful, full circle moment for me. First of all, I don't get to drop in with couples very often. And you know why? Because I really don't have a lot of couple templates, models in my life scape. And I know that I'm not alone because I speak to a lot of my girlfriends and colleagues about the expanders in our life, whether that's in the realm of beauty or wealth or romance and relationships. And many of us are really experiencing a dearth of inspiration in the polarity realm, in the romantic realm, in the marital realm specifically. And so it's such a pleasure to peek into your life together and also to talk, you know, to talk some of the pedagogy of polarity and what you both feel is alive and relevant and important to transmit right now. because we'll get into this, but there are a lot of shenanigans going on in the polarity space. And yeah, you are just some of the very, very select few that my innermost circle and that I trust to guide us in this. What I've come to understand is one of the most important spiritual and personal development realms there is. So that way we have a bit of background Eli and I go way back through my former partner and through David Data's work. And I remember, so, I mean, when was this? I don't know, probably a decade ago, right? About then, because I remember, yeah, that it was after a workshop around then that you came into our lives. And I remember even just my first interactions with you and, you know, everyone listening has the pleasure of hearing your voice in this conversation today, you know, in the tenor of your voice, in the stillness of your body, in your presence. And these concepts were quite new to me at the time, and I probably only was barely perceiving them. But I remember clocking that you were somebody unique in the manscape and that you are deeply committed and disciplined in a way that perhaps, again, not a lot of men have this model, this template, this sort of guidance around. And I remember hearing about the Zion gatherings that you were putting together and the feeling that I had that I imagine a lot of women listening can relate to, which is that I felt a kind of exhale, like a kind of relief that men were gathering. right that that was happening of course that it was happening under your guidance was you know sort of the cherry on top but that it was happening I remember feeling like a harmonizing and organizing almost existential rightness around the segregation of men and women into the work right whatever that looks like and I want to talk about that how you both offer you know this work in terms of men's work, women's work, and couples or men and women's work. And I also remember, now that I'm in my reverie, that you shared with me some, I mean, you're such a measured man in my experience, but you shared with me some of your reservations around polarity work in the household, right? Like in the practical spaces of real life relative to some of the overarching themes and big teachings that can really light a lot of us, especially myself. I mean, I've been following Data's work for a long time, years and years before I met you. And I was, you know, I am one of those like obsessive fangirls and probably idealizers, right? And I hook, line, and sinkered the work from the beginning. And I just remember you offering me a nuance and a sort of practical awareness, I guess, around what it looks like to bring this into an actual relationship, an actual life, and where some of the lofty themes and maybe aspirational goals are left on the altar. And then what you actually do can can be a little more grounded in something that's more shades of gray, you know? You might not remember saying this to me. You did. So I want to start, Eli, and really start macro around, like now all these years later, how are you perceiving your role, but really men's roles, in the collective? Because since that time, you have called in this absolute fucking goddess of a woman that I had the deep pleasure of sharing a space with in November at the teacher training. And I remember thinking like, damn, bro. Nice work. And we've called in a daughter, too. So we call it double whammy. Exactly. I was getting there. So you've layered these archetypes, right, from, you know, man of the world to father and husband since we've met. And so I know that that nuance is probably even richer. So I'd love to just start macro and dive in the deep end around, like, how are you seeing, what are you trying to inspire out of men? Like, how are you seeing the role of men in society today? what is sort of the thrust, pun intended, of your work with men these days, now that you have all of these different vantage points? Right. Well, thank you for that generous introduction. And I don't remember that moment, but I'm sure we'll unpack it. The more nuanced sense of polarity in the household, which is a very unique engagement. It's very personal. You were just like, you know, be a little careful, Kelly, like trying to to force yourself or your relationship like. Yeah, exactly. Into the perfection of the work. Things are always more natural and more unique than what we see as like the grand presentation. And you can find that in across the board and the more allure and kind of fantasy of like, wow, become this or do this. these steps and you'll have this experience, then it becomes more exaggerated. But I think that's maturity as we get to have an idea of what really lights us up and then to feel how that lives in our own experience, our own relationship, and to make that personal. It's not, we're not imitating someone else. And so maybe we'll get more into that. But to come back to your question to start out with, it's, I mean, it's, it's the same themes as it's always been. And yet there's a, There's more of an urgency to returns of those themes. And they are, you know, the body. So coming out of the head where we all reside far too much, and now we're even residing outside of the head in a virtual realm, which is, I guess, still in the head in a way, but it's even out of the body. And so learning how to descend our greatest ideas, our greatest longings into the body, and that's where we live, the anchor of the body. So that is incredibly important. And then with that, a kind of embodied presence, which takes some time to develop. And that, you know, it takes a, you build a reservoir of being able to stay in your body, to be able to stay present, and to be able to stay open and loving and being with the moment. Whether that's your partner, whether that's the wildness of the world, whether that's a beautiful or a difficult day. And that capacity to stay with and not contract, collapse, turn away, blame, other feel victim to, that's the essential practice, male or female, in my opinion. And it shows up in different ways through a masculine body or through a feminine body. But it's that same quality. And so I'm still working away on those values and then adding in, there's more of an urgency to train, to train our awareness because our awareness is what's being pulled away in different directions. That's what's being kind of distracted and drained and pulled. And so that currency of awareness, presence, depth, body, you hear these words a lot in the space. But when you actually stay with it for a few years or a decade or more, it starts to become a resource that everyone can feel around you. And it's not, it doesn't get washed away. there, even in the most extreme circumstances. You touched on something I think will be helpful to unpack a bit, which is the immature expression. So how would you say, and I'd love, Alexandra, for you to give the lady's perspective, how would you say that a man who is expressing immaturity can demonstrate that? What does it look like in his body? Because I'm amazed when I speak to my girlfriends and colleagues who are in this space at how, I don't know, like long it's taken us as women to attune to the basics of a man's biology, nervous system, however you want to refer to it, right? When we are even in the virtual space, right? So when we're in the presence, obviously specifically in person, of a man who is fidgeting, his eyes are darting around, you know, he's got a lot of kinetic movement, he's chatty, he's let alone reactive, defensive, you know, hostile, emotionally expressed, all these things. We will sooner judge that and, you know, call him an asshole or whatever sort of assign some label, then we will frame it as his position in the maturational arc of masculine embodiment. You know what I'm saying? So then we can start to just feel whether it's relaxing or not, orienting or not, grounding or not, to be around a man's body. It's actually quite simple. And I don't know if it's, I know it's not just me. I don't know if it's perhaps like my generation that is just sort of getting the memo. But I imagine, Alexandra, when you met, that was one of the first things that you registered was what it felt like to just be around. I mean, everyone around Eli feels this. That's why you're a master instructor of this work, because literally just being in a room with you is a regulatory offering. It's like allows us, right? And I don't know. I don't think you were probably, I didn't know you as a teenager, but I know that you've worked at this, that there's discipline that has allowed you to more fully embody this. So what does it look like? When you see, when you work with a man who's new to this effort, what do you see, you know, how would somebody identify themselves on the spectrum of maturity in terms of masculine embodiment? I would say there's two kind of meters I look to. One is awareness to unawareness. And so part of it is just men don't know any better. They have not been taught. So they're unaware. They're unconscious. So it's literally just, I don't know. No one's ever showed it to me. I haven't seen it in the men that have been around, like the men that grow up without a father, without role models, without people that feel trustable and in their bodies. And so you don't have an example of it. then you don't know what it is. And so that is one thing to work with. And that's when a man starts to realize that when he starts to realize that what he is longing to create and to give the world is actually coming from his own core first and that there's a deepening and relaxing down in, that journey changes from there's something out there that's going to make me feel better, that I'm going to feel more confident, successful. The women are going to find me more attractive. I'm going to earn more money. Whatever the cue is that people are looking for that's out there is the masculine dilemma. That's the thing that we're taught and that's just not the case. We achieve those goals. We achieve those benchmarks and then we still feel like, wait a second, I'm not content. I still feel my own version of worthlessness inside, even though I've succeeded in all these areas. So when someone realizes that and the journey starts to go inwards and realize that those places are something to relax and deepen into, to feel your belly as confident just being in a room right now and the quality of a breath, a man starts to realize that every gesture is either demonstrating more of his awareness and consciousness, the way I hold my hands, the tone of my voice, what I do with my eyes, how I sit, how I breathe. And that has a deeper responsibility, which is adolescence doesn't have responsibility, doesn't care. The more mature we become, we realize my responsibility is I'm impacting my woman. I'm impacting my daughter. I'm impacting everyone I come into contact with by how much I'm willing to be here now. So that is one meter and that you can work with. The other one is more of a resistance meter. And that's coming more from something happened to, let's say, this young man that was uncomfortable or unbearable or just something in his life. And this is true for everyone to some degree. and so that meter is I'm going to resist these things because it's so painful or it's, and often it's so unconscious that it's still in that realm of, I don't know why I'm not turning this direction. I'm only going here, but there's something there that I'm terrified of and that's a different way of working with that because a man has to want to go towards that and has to come to a level of maturity where he realizes that both his adolescent, kind of immature habits are hurting the people around him. They're hurting his own lineage. They're hurting his own, you know, backwards and forwards. It's degrading and it's downward spiraling rather than generatively expanding and opening. And so that is a realization. And then there's a lot of work to begin to build the resiliency and the acceptance, the openness to turn towards the places in us that are just painful. And so that is why men stay immature also, is that they don't have that resiliency. And it's just too painful. It's easier to check out with a video game or a substance or virtual reality. And it's just too hard to be in the body. And I know that from witnessing your work over the years, that the container creating that physiologic, I would even say neurobiologic container of capacity to hold the energies of the shame and emotions that arise when you turn toward that core wound let say of worthlessness It doesn necessarily look like talk therapy It doesn I know for you Qigong and these very slow quiet you know simple, I would say in ways, practices are the foundation, right, of getting to a place where that courageous impulse to turn toward is even possible because you can have the intention and literally not have the level of embodiment required to stick it through. No? I mean, that's the beauty of polarity, right? Like polarity work as we know it, I would say, and I'll include myself in that camp, is that there are so many things that you can change in 30 to 60 seconds, right? Postural. I mean, you're like the posture king. It's ridiculous. I mean, look across the room and you literally, I'm like this, and your posture isn't. I mean, decades, decades of being in the room. And I get it. I want to just clarify one thing to Kelly is that we both came to the space of polarity more from the spiritual domain first. Yeah, that was exactly where I was going. Yes. Yeah. And so there's a three different you may go into that where there's there is there's healing and there's the whole realm of of understanding why we are the way we are accepting it. Then there's training, which you're going into now. How do you train? and then there's the realization and the spiritual practice that goes along. Exactly. And I want to give you the mic, Alexandra, to talk about sort of the feminine expression of this immaturity to just balance this, you know, sort of placing ourselves on the map conversation. And I think that this is really where you two shine because a lot of what, you know, David Data teaches is the training. And he's very specific in my experience around the segregation of trauma-based work, therapy-based work. And I would say spiritual is such a diluted term these days that I would probably even just say the root causes of some of these expressed behaviors versus the highly modifiable within 30 seconds, within 60 seconds, change your shirt, open, relax your jaw, fix your posture. your, you know, adjust your gaze, feel your breathe into your balls, like whatever it is that you can literally do in the here and now, that is a practice that you apply in addition to these other embodiment related skills that allow you to cultivate present awareness as a man and perhaps increase the movement and aliveness in your body. I remember Alexandra in our training, it was like three or four times you came up to me and you whispered in my ear and you're like, you know, like, what did you say? You're like, sink down into your hips, sink down into your hips. Right. So like, I imagine, and I mean, if, if you, in fact, I even just shared a video, old video of me dancing from 10 years ago, like you don't know how far this girl has come. Eli maybe knows, but I've come, I've come a long way in the, in the embodiment realm. And right. This is one of the things that we do. If I could tee you up as women is like, we just live in the upper triangle, right? Like we're all up here in our heads, literally and figuratively. And to, to like your, your prompt is so helpful. I think about it so often. It was so simple. It's just like, you bend your knees, you know, like sink down, like get, allow the, the movement to, to arise from lower in your body. It's so simple. And it's something I can change in five seconds. And that's very empowering, right? And there are also going to be these moments, which I want to get into in the householder experience of polarity teachings, where if you do not have the foundational capacity to hold yourself through the trigger, if we want to call it that, you can have all the practice prompts you want, and you're still going to show up like your 12-year-old self or whatever. And then it's even worse because then you're watching yourself be an asshole and that judger comes on board. It's a whole circus of chaos. So how would you say that a woman could identify herself on the spectrum of maturity in terms of what you would conceive of as immature feminine expression? How does it look for us when we're just kind of starting this process? So and I want to speak to the male part for just a second before I get to the feminine part. Yeah, of course. One thing that has helped me and a lot of my clients is when you're sitting with that immature masculine energy or, you know, kind of Peter Pan or somebody that's maybe really radiant and sparkly and something about their sparkle attracted you, which is maybe their feminine side. Right. And we don't know. This is all kind of just happening. Right. Oh, he's hot. Oh, OK. The plight. Even my daughters, like we joke about like, yeah, just like the radiance of the hot, handsome man. And I know you're a Dr. Pat Allen fan. And one thing that she says is that men fall in love with their eyes and women with their ears. And one thing, I mean, I will totally out myself. In the past, my masculine side was hunting and falling in love with the radiance in men, their beauty. Like a Brad Pitt. I grew up in the 90s and it was like Brad and Leo. It's like they're not known for being deep and present. They're known for being hot, right? And that aspect is our masculine going out and wanting that, right? When I met Eli, his voice made me weak in the knees. And it was interesting because at first all of my trappings of does he meet all of these qualifications for me, they got in the way of me being able to receive, which I also just want to speak to because women might want a deep man. But if you have no embodied practice of receiving depth and presence, you might reject it. I've seen it happen with so many women and it breaks my heart, friends, clients. And I almost did it with Eli. I almost went into all of my conditioning choosing. and then he sent me a voice note. That was all it took. And I was like, oh, wow, this is exactly what I've been praying for and practicing for and calling in. But I almost would have said no because I'm looking at my checklist. And so one thing that I have done with so many women is practice in their body receiving that deep stillness because it can be so disarming and it can be so discombobulating to be with a deep present man and to not go into the checklist and to just be in the body and the felt sense. And I had moments with male friends who also embodied similar qualities where I intentionally would practice receiving them, receiving their care. And I knew this is a step towards receiving this on a wider scale. If I can receive this person walking me to my door, opening the car door, which seemed like they're very surface, but the energy with it, because somebody could walk you to the door and be a total mess, a man, it could be like, but their quality of depth and presence that they were offering me, I just knew I'm training to receive what I want because life has not trained me. Life has trained me to receive the kind of, does he have a good job? How much money is he making? Is he hot? Even as a deeply spiritual woman, my conditioning is still leading me in that direction. And so I had to sit and lean against an oak tree and go, what is it like to be held by an oak tree? And can my nervous system actually receive it. And that took practice so that I could receive. So I just wanted to speak to that. In a woman's body, the difference between being with a, you know, maybe we call him immature, maybe we call him more radiant, maybe we call him more fidgety, it depends, right? But between noticing, oh, this isn't about me. And I think that's part of it too, calling him an asshole or a jerk is because we think we're taking it personally on some level when we do that. We're like, oh, why is he such an asshole? He's not showing up how I want him to show up in this moment on this date. Instead of just differentiating and noticing, oh, that's where he is. And that's not what I'm looking for. Thank you. Thanks. And moving on. Right. And not trying to change him. That's a whole nother thing. Right. Not trying to give him the way of the superior man And you want to come to the workshop with me. Right. You're hot and you've got money, but you just if I could just fix one thing about you. Right. So the depth thing, which like Eli said, sorry, it takes many years, you know. But so I just wanted to speak to that before I speak to the feminine side of things. And I mean, for us as women, I think one way that we express and kind of fall into our immaturity is by relying on our surface expression, by spending a lot of time thinking about how do I look? And I always tell women, like, it's not how it looks. It's how it feels in general with dating. with sex, with your presence, your expression as a woman. It doesn't mean we can't totally enjoy all of our adornments. And I think our adornments and the way that we carry ourselves can be a pathway into deeper currents or a reminder or an evocation of an energy. But when we start to obsess or lean on our external, our appearance, our social media, all of these things, even our job, we know we've left our deeper place of expression. And when we lead on a date with those things, when our outfit or our hair is really the first thing that someone's going to experience, we're basically asking them to orient towards that part of us. And it's interesting. It's not like we want to show up not beautiful and radiant, but if we're leaning on our job or our appearance, that is our immature feminine. We're vying for love. And our masculine might be vying for love by saying, here's my job and my competency. And let me tell you about all the cool things that I've done and blah, blah, blah on a date. And I see women do that too. And I'm like, you know, another Dr. Pat Allen thing is like, keep your Yang mouth shut. I know you know that one, which I feel like can be so triggering for some women. And, you know, yang, for those of you listening, you probably know it's the masculine side of the yin and yang symbol. So on a date, our immature masculine would be like, oh, I've done this and I've done this. And I had times in my life where I led like that because I was so proud of my competency, my achievements. Our immature feminine would be like, look at me, look at me. I'm so hot. I'm so sexy. Right. And so those are just places to watch when we're nervous, when we're in a risky situation like a you know a first date or going deeper those things will arise naturally and it's nothing to shame ourselves for it's just like oh cute I just did a thing right like I just started twirling my hair I just said and it's like oh wow that's my own fear or anxiety pulled me out of the deeper cadence okay let me stop let me breathe let me feel into my cervix or my vulva. Let me feel my hips. Let me feel my back body on the chair. Okay. And then that's what you're talking about, the training of coming back. And like with you and leaning, coming down into your hips. And I mean, I've practiced for decades and I still have to remind myself those same things. So it's not like it's just, it's over. It's like the gym or Pilates or yoga or whatever. It's not like you go once and you get it. If you're going to keep getting it, you got to keep going. And that's what all the practices that we are. They're not like just in places. They're like a life orientation in a way towards love, towards sex, towards the moment together and a choosing to go into that deeper place. And one thing I just want to just kind of say is that you will still get triggered and we still get triggered and we still become those 12 year olds. And we live into, we're not trying to just fix that or get rid of that. Or we're not trying to be like, we're less spiritually evolved. We actually are happy. It is sick as that may sound. Opportunity to practice. We're like, okay, you're taking me into a deeper place inside of myself, which is, it's in there. It's in there whether I like it or not. And it's coming out in this moment where perhaps it's a safer place than it was when I was younger. I have more tools than I did when I was younger. So those moments, I would say, even for like a deep couple or a spiritually evolved couple or a practiced couple or a teacher couple, if anyone's saying we don't have moments that are tanked, that tank our intimacy or that create a big rupture, then they must be God-like, I don't know. Because for me, those are a part of the practice and the intimacy. We're not hiding anything. And any moment that we try to sweep something under the rug and just kind of breathe it or practice it away, it might do. But if it doesn't, then we're not afraid to turn towards it. I would say also that it's an immature disposition to believe that you can get to a place where you will never be frustrated by someone, or you can get to a level of health where you'll never experience illness. It's like they go hand in hand. And so the maturity is realizing that there's actually a play between those two sides, between the young, between the up and the down, and having an artful navigation between those is more realistic. It's not some fairyland where it just freezes and you're happy forever after. And in like always polarity and never triggered or, you know, especially I think if you, if you live in day-to-day domestic partnership or parenting or, you know, it's different if, if, you know, you're, I don't know, yogi and yogini on a mountaintop and, you know, you walk out of your cave once a week to do a practice or something, but, you know, you're paying bills and you're taking out trash and you're sweeping the house. Yeah, so I want to go there because I think that this is where you go on the retreat, you experience the apical expression of eros between a man and a woman, and then you get back home and you are in this neurotic swirl of like, how do I translate this into the paying the bills, the taking out the trash, taking care of the kids type of life? I think you two are very unique in this space as a couple that is sharing publicly about the real life application of this. So you're taking the philosophy and the ethos of, you know, the lineages that you're drawing from and talking about and sharing with with folks that come to your workshops and that spend time with you. how does this actually translate into real life? And how do we also weave in some of the, you know, reparenting trauma awareness, like the root cause analysis of what actually brings us to this place so that we understand ourselves with more compassion. So I'd love to talk about, you know, how does it look? Because polarity is fundamentally in service of eros, right? In service of erotic energy and activating the charge that becomes available in the complementarity of a man's body and a woman's body. And that concept is only so relevant, right, in life, right? Like, it's not relevant in many moments. And there's code switching that women do if we work and then come home, if we're mothering and then, you know, making love to our husband. There's all of this shape-shifting that we do. And there's probably an overarching awareness that you have of, am I in it or am I out of it? But what I hear from both of you is that there's something that becomes available when you subscribe to this as a spiritual technology, which is that you're sharing a reality, right? Like you're on the same team. And so when you have conflict, to me, I've learned this through my relationship with my daughters, like what it is to be on the same team as somebody that you would otherwise be very apt to enter into a zero sum game dynamic with. Right. And so every single time I am having a divergent perspective from one of my daughters, I check myself, am I on, you know, the actual same team? Am I honoring this human for who she is? or am I selectively and conditionally supportive when she's doing or expressing the thing I like? Okay. So if you both have that perspective, like you're, you know, oh, it's another fun opportunity to practice. It's almost like breaking the fourth wall, right? It's almost like there's some cosmic wink across the room where you're like, we're doing it. We're doing the thing, right? And what's your job and what's my job? So like, how do you see your jobs, right? Like, How do you see, what's your responsibility, Eli? And what's yours, Alexandra? In your domestic relationship, plus mine is parenting relationship, right? There must be a through line of what's yours so that Alexandra perceives when you've dropped the bag, so to speak. So that's not a saying. I don't know. I just made that. Trevor drops the grocery bag. He's so good at carrying stuff. One of his roles was like, he is amazing at carrying all the stuff. Yeah, yeah. I mean, definitely doing the thing together is humor and winking when there's a moment of everything is showing the opposite. Like every part of you wants to not do the thing and that kind of humor and commitment to lean in. And that's one of the responsibilities is whoever is more open. whoever has more availability in that given moment and that always changing and it can change day to day it can change you know month to month depending on many variables but whoever has even just a little bit more capacity to go beyond no blame and whatever that looks like and it can reach a handout and you know caress the cheek or draw come on back into love come back in wink wink like let's let's we're in this together, that's your responsibility. And it's always got to be one person. And so I want to back up a little bit and just say that there's there's levels of polarity on any domain. So it can happen on a more superficial domain of, you know, body, the bank accounts and breasts is the classic or like, you know, the things you have in the way you look and those that's surface polarity. And that's most of the world. And we're all still, you know, it's entertaining and it's beautiful and there's nothing wrong with being somewhat compelled by it. But to think it's going to ultimately bring you into the place of depth and connection that you're really longing for is where people miss. And so that surface depth is kind of, that may still be there. But if we're in that same conversation, I'm going from the immature of thinking the surface is all there is out there. and realizing that we go from the surface of things to the depth of things. And that's a beautiful thing for just everyone to stay with, whether it's the surface of sensuality and sexually from the lips to deeper down into the tongue and the throat or the surface of the body, the surface of the heart. So those are areas where we can go from surface to depth, and that creates a different life, absolutely. And so with that in mind, before we even do anything, there's a quality of am I practicing what I need to or am called to to stay closer to my depth, which that's my responsibility. I do that in the morning. I wake up and I ring the bell metaphorically for what I believe in most. And for me, if that's coming back to my body and feeling the quality of just pristine awareness as women in world and as all the whole wildness of experience is happening, my body's aging, my daughter's growing up, everything's happening. But I come back to a quality of just, I'm here. Pristine awareness, feeling the room. Then the more I cultivate that, that's what I bring into relationship. And for Alexandra, having her moment of cultivating the part of her that is like at depth is love, is is radiance. It shows up through the skin. It shows up through everything else. But she's not looking to show the skin because she doesn't feel it on the inside. So both of us feel it on the inside and then it becomes an expression through our lovemaking, through our finances, through our child rearing or how we want to call that. And so that the piece that creates some sense of these are what we doing individually And if we get into a moment of rupture or sideways it kind of like hey have you been in your practice today And that has a huge. Just asking. I'm just curious. Like wink, wink. And it's not even so much of a question, but it's like if neither of us are, then we're going to much more come in sideways at each other. if we've rung the bell, then there's a room to meet each other. And, and then we can talk more about what that actual play of clarity looks like. And I don't think that we don't hold it rigidly where it's like, this is my role and this is your role. It's much more fluid than that, but there are, there are kind of things that are true of my body and true of her body that we rely on that are our nutrients that keep us both sane, watered, happy, loving, free. And those places, you know, we could talk more about them, but they just, it's not like you have to do it. It's what's true for her body. And it's what's true for my body. I have a lot of clients that are wishing for more depth and presence from their partners and they're more competent and more capable in many areas more structured. And I kind of forget until I hear them how lucky I am. Last night, Eli and I were brushing our teeth and I was like, babe, I am so fucking lucky. I was just like, you hurt just so much that you do just makes my life easier. And, you know, that's not him trying to do with spiritual practice. That's just him being him. And, you know, I never want to take that for granted. And like, I didn't, I did everything on my own for many years. And like, the fact that he books our plane tickets, takes out the trash, like, called to, you know, get somebody to clean our carpet, the other called yesterday to get the water heater fixed. Like, I'm not thinking about any of that. Girl, there's a lot of wet panties right now. And I'm like, that is such a gift, you know? And so some of those roles, even though I would say that we're by nature more like sacred rebels in our youth, et cetera. And so by default, and part of it is soul and part of it is trauma and all of these things. But by default, we're not the polarity. We don't want to be like, I want to be a trad wife. and he, you know, is like that. We're not. That's not our we're not. We don't fit just. We don't. Yeah. Bucket personality. But I'm outing myself here. But that some of these things that would be labeled as like more traditional male role, I would say outside polarity, but just a male role. I do really adore, you know, and I do make dinner. You know, Eli, am I allowed to say that you don't really cook? like that I love to cook right and it's like and I love to make the house beautiful and he does too in many ways but it's like I'm some of these things about us just happen naturally because of my orientation towards nurturing and a certain level of beauty and sensuality and noticing the sense in the home and wanting to have flowers and always tweaking the lighting and all of this kind of thing. And it's not because I'm trying to be in my feminine. It's just I have enough space to do so, which our partnership provides me enough space to do so. And I've had to peel back the layers of being like, no, no, no, I should do more. I should contribute more. And Eli having to say, no, it's okay. I've got us. And that has been radically difficult for me in moments because I'm like, well, if I'm not doing ABC, like what's going to happen? And like, am I safe? And so that's been a beautiful practice. And it's taken us years. It's not like on day one, all of this just went into place. And Eli was like, I've got us and I'm doing and you can rely. And, you know, it's taken years of us. It's taken years of us creating trust, creating intimacy to sort of be able to lean into the things that feel most nourishing and natural for us. Natural. Yeah. Yeah. There's, I think, one of the main things that I would just put my finger on because I could do all the things around the house or I could have a very successful day and be doing the thing in the world. And yet, if I wasn't present with Alexandra, then they would still be great. things to have in her life, but she wouldn't be content. So one of my practices, when I'm able, and sometimes I'm so much on my train, I don't stop and I don't slow down. Or there's like a, sometimes I'm aware of it and I'm just like, I don't got time to slow down, babe. Or other times I'm so in it where I hardly even notice. But the times that I know that my choice is to connect with Alexandra, when I'm able to slow down and actually gaze into her eyes and actually feel her body and breath and being more than myself, more than what my mind and my body want to do, that's what draws us into polarity. So those are the moments again and again where whatever's happening in the world, and if I just find it in me to look across the table and actually see her, And with my eyes, my presence, enter her in various ways, enter into her heart and be with her. That's one of the deepest places that and for her, similarly, when she's busy and there's all the reasons in the world to stay contained and to stay, you know, keeping the emotions in and going where we need to be going for various reasons. when she's able to touch me, it reminds me of my body. It reminds me of here when she's willing to show me her emotions and really put sound and tone and expression on how she's feeling and how she's feeling in particular to my presence. Then that's what starts the bond or my lack of presence. If I'm not present, her showing that just as strongly. And that's how I get to be reminded. and it's a mirror to show me, oh, I'm actually, I'm here. And then there's moments like everyone, all practitioners forget. It's not like you graduate to a moment where you just, you feel like you're always present or you're always light. It's an ongoing thing for a lifetime. It's like any art. And with so many women, that is so hard to just be in the vulnerable expression. Women want to put words on it immediately. want. It feels so much safer to label it. And this takes years of practice for many women. Some women, maybe they grew up, they're always being welcomed in their emotionality. But most women nowadays are not. And so it's a huge training of vulnerability again and again and again and again to open your heart to reveal the tears a growl and to do it in real time maybe with your kids around it's it's instead of leaning into the verbal the talk masculinized mental body that wants to say hey what you did just upset me even that it's like instead to let your eyes well up with tears and just go, like he gets it so much more. And if I say like, hey, what you did just upset me, it's not going to evoke. And it's, this is, it's, I tell women, go kick and scream about this. Be really fucking annoyed that you can't just say what you need and what you feel and that he's not going to immediately respond. Please take all your time to be pissed about that, but then come back and practice not doing it. Practice doing something differently and leading from your heart and putting aside the story, putting aside the words so that he can feel you because that lands on his heart and wakes up his heart. That creates the connection. Not necessarily always polarity, but that creates the intimacy that then is the sacred ground for the polarity. Absolutely. And I agree that this is the steepest mountain of all for us as women to reprogram that mentalism, right? That we just fly up into our head and generate our alibi. And, you know, I talk about this feminine shadow as trying to get him to see, right? Like once I get him to see, then I'll feel safe. And that usually is a rhetorical effort, right? And so to reveal spontaneously is, I mean, it's the training of trainings. But when that is, to my question, right, like when that is your responsibility in a way, I imagine there's this meta awareness that develops where you're sort of recognizing if you're getting into the residue versus. And I still try to get him to see just at least a few times a week, you know, of course. And then, and then I'm like, oh, here I am, you know, and that's stumbling. It's like, Like we're, it just is. We keep practicing. We keep doing it. You know, we're not afraid to have a rupture. We're not afraid to let those things come up and be like, oh, I did it. But then to keep moving forward, to keep practicing. And I hear both of you say that when there is rupture between you, touch is a bridge, right? That there's, right, these maybe gaze, touch, these very primal foundational points of connection. whoever has the courage to initiate that, that's the road home, it sounds like. I mean, it makes sense. Yeah, more for me. And so I think for different couples, there's different kinds of touch. So physical touch when we're really ruptured isn't Alexandra's first way to draw her in. But my touching with my heart, feeling her, and my tone and my voice, or there's other ways I touch her. And him offering me to be seen. And that's where, you know, we we work with many people with complex PTSD. We have a lot of trauma training. So we don't fully separate these moments because, you know, trauma imprints come up. You can't control when they come up. They come up so they cannot be practiced away with a deep breath and leaning into your hips always. right so Eli knows me and if I'm in my deepest childhood wound and he comes to try to just I'm gonna be like get away from me right so he knows he knows how to deal with that because he cares and because we have done work around that we have done therapeutic work we know each other's deepest places and so we can be kind in those moments if we're both not triggered and he can go oh babe Like, I realize you probably feel like I didn't really listen to you. And sometimes that is the gateway back in that kind of approach. Like there are moments where you can't practice your way out of a certain trigger if it's very old and very deep. And so for us, we have a lot of compassion for people that have been through many different things. And this comes up in a workshop space where a woman stands in front of a man and all this stuff comes up from all the other men in her life. And it's not her fault that she can't open in that moment. She might need to be hugged by another woman in that moment. She might take a little walk, you know. So it's very, there's a lot of nuance to hold when it comes to the way we open together as men and women. But I think one of the core things is we hold it personally is it's alchemical material that we get to transform. And that's the self-responsibility, the sense of whatever I'm experiencing in this reality, in this body, in this relationship is the manual for me to learn to be as I am, to love life, to be aware with life as it is. And that's bottom line. So if I feel like a victim to her, to the situation, and I push it away, that's a very different life journey. So we take any moment where we're ruptured sideways with each other, when we can, there's moments we can't. But when we can, there's a feeling of, oh, thank you for being my ally to get to know myself better, because I would not be in this terrain on my own. And so... Unless I went to like an ayahuasca journey or something like that. That deep reach inside. Yeah. I imagine most listening probably agree, though, that the relational realm is where the rubber hits the road when it comes to the transformation and maturation beyond our trauma patterning. because you can have all the insights and talk to all the entities and have all the divine sanctioning of your journey and until you can repair with somebody that you deeply care for in a way that changes the story around the fears associated with intimacy. You have not graduated from your programming. So I really hear and feel this beautiful braiding that you both do between the erotic tenets of polarity and also the deep understanding, training and practice of trauma-informed relational skills. And so it leads me to the million-dollar question, which is, how does this translate into parenting? How does it translate into raising a daughter? Because everybody knows, because I can't shut up about it, that I have two teenage girls. And I have been talking about man-woman dynamics and a woman's responsibility, a man's responsibility, organizing some of these natural, I would even argue, primal tendencies and our departure from them, you know, like you were alluding to, Alexandra, and also talking about the power that we have to generate erotic energy as women and, you know, even in the marital space, right? So like a lot of Laura Doyle's work, I mean, my girls have been hearing about this for years. and they are also part of a generation that somehow has reclaimed or remembered or something, not with my help. As you know, I don't know. I just really feel like this is a part of the culture that they're marinating in, at least in my girls' lives, where they get this. And maybe it's because of a lot of the, I don't know, sort of non-binary, gender-neutral psyops out there that the pendulum has swung, right? And they understand what it is to be a woman in ways that I even am just learning. And it's extraordinary. And so in many ways, I'm humbled because I really don't have a ton to teach them. And I imagine that as you are raising your little princess, that there will be transmissions. So, you know, there will be frameworks. There will be things that you model that feel really important and significantly disruptive to your respective lineages when it comes to man-woman dynamics. And then how a father interacts with a young girl and how a mother interacts with a young girl. While you were talking, I was thinking, I've spoken to so many fathers, and if they ever were to ask me, as a grown-ass woman, what matters in a father's behavior? And there's one thing I will often suggest, which is just ask your daughter how she feels. Right? Because that's exactly what I heard when you were saying what Alexandra needs in these moments is to feel seen for how she feels. Right? It's essentially, at least for me and my experience, it's that little girl just wanting that to matter. It's such a simple thing, and it's probably as hard as it is for her to reach out a hand and run it down the front of your body for you to remember and have the wherewithal to say, Hey, baby, how are you feeling? You know, kind of a thing when you want to make your case or solve the problem or whatever the fuck. You know, so it's it's the stuff translates into how you are as a father raising a daughter and maybe a future son, who knows, whatever. But it translates very directly because you recognize, wow, I have the opportunity and the power to support this this sacred embodied energy in this being. And I can really fuck that up if I forget. Right. Or at least that's how I think about it. So, you know, your daughter's so young that I wonder how this is for you. Like, how does it translate? What do you think is important as a dad, as she witnesses you as a figure, right, in society and in your relationship with your woman? Like, how does the work translate? Well, I mean, it's beautiful and there's an urgency to it. So I am regularly reminded that how I am with her right now, she's going to have that template the rest of her life. And I feel that as with Alexandra and sometimes I'm working with her dad and with friends and, you know, like we all are working with our parents our entire life. And so I am regularly reminded of the of how I am with her is going to directly impact her whole life. And so for me, just the quality of being fully with her, the physicality, the holding her with awareness. I started with that from a very young age. Even when she was in the belly, I would still just kind of commune with her and make a low humming sound through. And so like that, whatever that is, it's a tonality. It's a certain communication of I'm here. I'm with you. My body's here. my depth. I love you. So those are essential. I want to come back to that. There's one thing I wanted to say about the polarity and the healing as a way to get back to that is that we do therapy as much as you need to, to become functional, to then be able to explore your life in polarity or in other areas. And some people get lodged in therapy thinking that they'll somehow get, they'll still fix whatever happened in the past and they won't have to experience the thing. So they feel like it's going to change something fundamentally. And people do the same thing with polarity, thinking that if they do the polarity well enough, then there's going to be, they're not going to have to experience often it's childhood trauma that they're trying to get away from, or it's just genuinely feeling the love and the excitement of a relationship. And both of those domains, you never get fully met. They're ways of being in the world. They're preferences. Some people prefer to spend a lot of time in that emotional domain and creating safety and attunement. And I think everyone should have that as a basic language. But then some people choose to move into other areas. Same thing with polarity. And at home in particular, we choose to do that depending on our own personality and our preferences and the changing of our life. And as we have a daughter in the house now, we've chosen to prioritize certain things that don't necessarily create polarity, but they do create a sense of family and a sense of love, connection and intimacy and safety where that's a conscious choice. And then other moments we say, all right, we're going to stop the cuddle puddle of love, you know, and which is what she needs and we need in moments. And it's like then there's a pulling apart and there's a relinquishing that. And that's what creates the polarity, which is easy to do, especially in the extreme version where two people live in different places. That's the easiest kind of polarity because you see someone for a certain amount of time. It's fully polarized. You leave again, fully polarized. When you start living with someone, when you start having children, then you have to work harder to sustain that polarity. And I just, I wonder if they want to say this because it's not, there's no right way of doing it. Different people need certain different amounts of polarity at different times in their life. And then the last thing is, regardless of kind of how much healing we do, how much polarity or training to be in our body, the ultimate kind of practice we can come back to, whether we're feeling polarized, whether we're feeling traumatized or not, is am I aware? as the masculine part is, am I aware now? And if anything happens and I collapse that awareness into fidgets, into self-doubt, into blaming, that's the adolescent basic collapse, which we all do in moments. Any moment that I can reside and stabilize as awareness, lovingly engaging the moment, but I'm aware whether I'm broken my arm or whether I'm being beautifully touched. And the same thing for the feminine is I am light. I am love. Even if the relationship's failing in moments, even if there's no polarity in this moment, whatever is happening, rather than thinking I need something to change that, the deep feminine spiritual practices, I am love. And let me shine love and not collapse into the feeling of I not loved God not loving me My children aren loving me I not loving myself which happens to all of us and realize that you are love. And that I think is really important for us all to get into our bones because as we get older, it doesn't get easier. Our bodies are going to age. It's going to be harder to create polarity. It's going to be harder to be in the body. Yet those qualities can stabilize more and more. The love and the awareness are not dependent on your physicality, on what you own, on the world. It's something deeper. So, yeah, I feel like that's an important communication. And then let's bring it back to our daughter and how we're holding her. And like, what a gift to be able to just feel that the natural play of polarity between when she's just deeply nourished with mama in like num-num land. That's what she calls. And just deeply in that, just enveloped in safety and love and nourishment. And then when I'm holding her and I'm like jumping up and down and playing and like just holding a certain role of courageously kind of exploring, but also holding her with trust where she knows I'm not going to drop her. I can throw her way up in the air. I can do all kinds of things. And she feels like she can trust life. She can trust. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I've come to the preliminary conclusion that the greatest gift that I can offer my daughters is my own regulated system. Right. So it's my own, if we want to use these terms, like developed mature intermasculine, you know, that holds me in those moments where I otherwise might be in the immature expression of needing something to change. And I mean, fortunately, unfortunately, for whatever we signed up for, me and my kiddos, like I did not have that available to me. And yet I was a very, you know, cool, calm and collected mom. It's not like I was, I vowed never to scream at my kids. You know, I had all these rules set in place as a mom back when, but my, it's like they feel it. They feel your primal body. And I did not have that to offer. So I, I really offered them like stoicism, withdrawal, you know, when I would be triggered. And now, I mean, they'll tell you like, I am the easiest laugh and the easiest cry. Like, you know, just it's right there. And so they know they can gauge what's going on internally, emotionally. And yet I don't need them to fix it. I mean, it sounds so basic, but that's the level of maturity that they've inspired. And so that you know this, you get this, you practice this, Alexandra, at this stage in your daughter's life. I mean, wow, it's just what more is there, right? for like essentially embodied, I wish there was a better word than regulated. I don't know. I haven't come up with one, but contained, right? Contained, self-contained woman who makes her energy available, right? Like it's just, that's everything. I like emotionally mature because regulated to me still feels so masculine and clinical. I know. So, okay, so what are we going to use? I like emotionally mature or emotionally flexible, right? Because it's like, you're not, you don't have regulations for feelings, But you're in a mature emotional relationship with your own emotions. And I want her to see the spectrum of my emotions and even see me go off rails and come back so she can learn. I mean, for me, I'm not talking about something violent or really disruptive, but I want her to see that that's okay to have a big emotion and to come back, right? And to be a little out of control for a moment and to come back. And so when she has big emotions since she was a baby, she's had such big emotions. It's been a huge practice for us to actually not try to change it. Even when she was a little baby, we were studying and like not trying to just rock her to stop crying. Like even that was or not trying to put the boob in her mouth to make her stop crying. Even that was us saying stop feeling. And so interesting. That was part of the aware parenting method. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. I mean, sometimes I'm like, OK, I just we're going to nurse now, you know, so we did it the best we can. But still to this moment, we allow. But we don't have no structure and no rules for her. Right. Like that's the other sort of parenting trend that I think we've seen a lot of people do. Just like letting their kids just be totally unbridled, energy, emotion, uncontrolled. So we still provide a healthy sense of structure for her, like so that she can kind of come back. And I love, it's interesting. Oh, I watch this so often. And Eli and his sister and I were talking about this. But sometimes when she jumps into his arms, her emotions just start flowing. It's like he's so strong and sturdy that a natural emotional polarity happens for her. This is the biology of what we are talking about. I'll tell you a funny random ass story that felt so deep to me. This is like super goofy. I don't even know why I'm sharing it, but it's just the real life experience of this. Okay, so I'm at the gym with my friend, and there is this super handsome guy who comes over to us. And of course, we're yapping, giggling, and we were doing this machine not quite correctly. Meanwhile, she's been going to the gym for decades. I don't know what her excuse is, but I'm only a year into my gym. Anyway, so we're doing a hack squat machine, not quite correctly. And this guy comes over to us, and he's like, hey, you ladies look like you know what you're doing at the gym, but you know you can also do it the other way. And so it's just like such a, he's just like this like gentlemanly demeanor. Right. And he's like this tall, big guy. And so we have this interaction with him and then smile part ways. And then later I am walking in the gym. Right. And, and he's sitting on a machine and I can see him in the mirror. And I had this impulse. I didn't fucking do it, but I had this impulse because he could see me in the mirror. Right. He sort of smiles or whatever. And I had this impulse to be like, I don't know, to do a goofy thing behind him in the mirror. And I was like, I didn't do it. But that is fucking polarity. It's like when, because he was just this, he had a still body and a gentlemanly way and I could feel something, right? And it brought out whatever that is, like a kind of silliness, a goofiness. And I just felt like, wow, this is what I've been studying for 15 fucking years. It's like you feel it in a moment. Like you listen to the voice note and you know, there it is, right? And your daughter, I love that. Like that she climbs into your lap and like starts crying or laughing or acting crazy. Like this is what the remembrance is and why it's so important to offer this framework so that we can allow the natural remembrance to take hold. So I'd love to close on sort of a spicy topic and feel free not to engage. But I want to know what you two think about what other polarity teachers are getting wrong. because, you know, you obviously I was recently with you facilitating, you know, David Data's teachings. And you also have your own expression and evolution may not be the right word. We're generationally right, like holding the torch. And there's there's a few folks now teaching either inspired by him or perhaps others who are out there teaching their own flavor. Right. Like their own version. and for whatever reason, I am quite loyal and pretty much exclusively interested in his lineage of teachings, okay? And find a lot of, you know what it is? It's really, it's again, that bio, it's like, I get it. I get an ick with a lot of folks out there who, and this is not meant to suggest I even know their teachings deeply. It doesn't matter. It's just sort of like an ick feeling. And I don't know what that's about. Other than that, it then becomes really easy for me to like laugh about what we're all doing, right? Like it's like, you know, like all the ways that we're studying how to be men and women and trying to figure out like, you know, how to be in our feminine and all of that. Then I just am like, oh my gosh, this is so funny. What are we doing? So I sort of toggle between like, this is the most important work. And like, I don't want to hear anybody talk about feminine and masculine, anything ever again, like shut up. And then I, you know, I witnessed people out in the world and like even my daughters who are so feminine and they don't talk feminine and math. You know what I mean? So I can sort of like, so I want to, I want to, to just tuggle to the, you know, do you ever look around and say like, you know, what are we doing here? What are all of us doing here? And also know that there's something really unique that you're bringing to the table. So if you could pinpoint, right? Like, let's say you have like some 21 year old who's like, hey, Eli, Alexandra, like, who do you I don't really want to work with you. But like, who do you think we should work with? And what do you think we should not by name? But like, what do you think we should look for in a teacher? And what do you think people are getting wrong? Right. Because this was sort of like the nuance that you brought to me, Eli, because I can be very certainly very ideological, like dogmatic. Like I can be a really A plus student. And I just remember whether you intended to or not, you helped me to to hold the teachings, polarity based teachings. gently, right? And I'm sure there are folks out there who are, you know, more on the extreme end of things or who are compelling couples to adopt, you know, rules and edicts that end up just translating into judgment and blame and victim consciousness. So if you ask me this question, I would say there are a lot of teachers out there who are, without perhaps intending to, crystallizing the realm of victim consciousness and the zero-sum game and the finger-pointing, judging, and blaming that probably led them to polarity teaching to begin with, the escape from that, right? And again, without practicing it in your real life, like being in an active relationship, especially a domestic family, I think a lot of it can get, you know, sort of lofty. So I don't know. Do you think that there's something that you would point to that's like, hmm, I'm just not sure? Yeah. All the polarity teachers out there are getting it right or this is really important to us and we're not sure it's super important to others. I definitely have some. Me too. It's a little gossipy. Anytime that any of the teachings make an other people for their choices, I find that to be not okay. I find it to be kind of cultic and super dogmatic. So also when there's nothing that accounts for any collective trauma, epigenetic trauma, and when people having a pain body or trauma is kind of looked at as less spiritual, I see that as a red flag. Because look at the times we're living in. No one is immune, right? Ram Dass said, we're all incarnated on this planet at this time because we have hard, deep work to do. So when there is a spiritual hierarchy that is inherent in the teachings, I just like, oh, bullshit. So that's one for me. And then with the feminine teachings, when people only include certain qualities of energy and expression as feminine and they sort of place some on the outskirts or they don't acknowledge them at all, or they again make negative emotions not just as clear energy, right? Because I see rage, grief, everything as erotic energy. It's just a difference. Does it come with a story and blame? But when feminine teachers place anything that is energy, which to me is the feminine in the space of, oh, that's not spiritual or that's not okay. Again, I see that as a red flag. And I think that women looking for a teacher find someone who feels good in your body, but you also study their embodiment a little bit. See them speak, listen to them, feel in your body, listen to podcasts, look at how they speak and just ask what is attracting you? Because you might be attracting from shadow and wound and that's okay. Maybe you have a contract with that teacher, but sometimes you use to wait and to feel underneath. What is it that is a resonance and why? And then also do a little bit of research to find out the kind of life they're living, right? Because anybody can make really beautiful marketing and social media and followers and not be living into the teachings. And that takes a little bit of time. You have to be actually a student who's curious enough. But before you enter into that contract, studying with someone is allowing them to enter you. You're taking them in, you're breathing them in deeply. And so I would say doing that research is just going to be so much better for you in the long run so that you don't have one of those yucky experiences where you're like, oh, my God, I can't believe I signed up for this thing. I wasted this money or I feel now traumatized by these teachings. So it has happened to a lot of people, sadly. Yeah. Where to start? I mean, it's not just polarity teachers. It's across the board, the whole Instagram personality marketplace or anything that becomes trendy. People cherry pick and turn those into sell points. And so I would also say what Alexander said is just be weary of the talking school versus the practicing school. So a lot of people are really good at talking and presenting and yet get into a room as soon as you can with that person and just notice how your body is responding to the way they're living in their body and the way that their voice actually feels when you see them and you're with them. Traditionally, that was the only way to transmit something. And so these are partly transmissions. You transmit how to be in a polarized moment. you transmit how to be spiritually in place of depth and it's concepts, but that's taking the concepts out of the head and into the body. And then it's shown and transmitted. So that's important. And I would say also people that perhaps a little too rigidly sticking to just the structure of polarity, like a technician, like if you go to the garage, we'll just do this and this and this and men have to do it this way and women do it this way. And like, it's, It's just like bringing this massive experience and narrowing it down into this small little thing that is surface. It becomes more of a surface thing. And it's often the deeper spiritual notes are drained out of that because people either don't understand the spiritual depth that can be lived. And then that's transmitted through the polarity. They just don't have the experience of it. or they are just trying to sell something and the little sound bites sell, but then the deep notes of real depth. So I'd be really cautious of that and look for something that has a quality of depth in it. And also I would look for someone that has a good track history of being in a relationship. Maybe they're not in a relationship now. Ideally they are, but they at least have been in relationships and stayed in relationships for years and to be able to be teaching about that if someone's not able to sustain a relationship. They might know the material very well, but that's just a different kind of transmission. And then the last thing I would say, this is a little bit different than what Alexandra said. I think we agree, but we have a varying degree on this. And I want to be careful how I say this. I feel like it's very important to do enough therapy and healing so that we are relatively functional, so that if someone says something, I don't just collapse into my thing. You can't practice at that moment. You're just stuck in your thing. And so we have to have that online enough. And even in the room, if someone goes too much into that, the problem is just that they shouldn't be in that room practicing because it's not about therapy. And so I would be cautious about teachings that blend too much like the therapeutic somatic with the polarity spiritual. That's like kind of the way we're going as a culture, but it waters something down. And you don't want to be doing therapeutic practice as you're in your deep, like spiritual, sexual polarized moment. You do it if you have to, but then you come back to it. And so I think a lot of people are blending those two together, and that's a little confusing for people. That's super resonant. And I think that's, at least for me, why this segregated, you know, sex segregated practice, healing, exploration is so essential, right? I wonder, yeah, how you all decide and then share what you're offering, what's alive for you now in terms of, you know, the way you're working with folks. But how you all see women's work, men's work, and working together, because I know you offer the full spectrum. And I imagine that you agree that it's essential for women to work with women, for men to do specific work with men. I mean, that is a part of this framework for reality in general, right? I know that, yeah, you agree. So, yeah. So what do you offer in terms of how people can work with you, how they can go deeper? I mean, it's just so I'll have to have you back on and maybe individually so we can deep dive, you know. Yeah. So what are you what are you thinking is most important in terms of of how you can transmit to folks and how they can access you and the work for you? Well, I love how we started this call with you and you were telling us how one of your friends came on a co-ed retreat that we just led in Mexico. And if I may quote that she had an incredible weekend. Best weekend of her life. Okay, great. I didn't know if I was the last. So yes, literally. Being in person with us is the best. You know, we both do work over Zoom. We do one-on-one client sessions. We have an online program that we run once a year over Zoom. Sometimes with people, that's the only way, right? Like we have clients around the world. But to do an in-person immersion with us, you can do like a one-day or a half day. We love working with couples in that way. We also have worked with individual people in that way. And that is a great way to just dive in and to be in the body, be moving energy. And so we do those in-person immersions at our studio in Boulder, Colorado. And then we also both see clients individually. And we also have couples that we see together online on Zoom. So those are those are two ways. And we have an online program that's a three month annual program called Alchemy of Love. that is a practice-based program, but we also do have space for Q&A and coaching in that group. So we're just finishing our second round of that, but you can get on the wait list for the next one of those as well. And I would definitely say just to find your way into a room with us or with anyone you want to actually go deeper and practice with. And the online space serves a function. So we can do a lot here and a lot can be transmitted even through this conversation. And so we do do that, but to find your way. And so for me, I would just like to say for the men, Zion immersion. You mentioned that in the beginning. This is the 11th year in a row that I've done that. It's a week-long immersion in one of the most pristine landscapes that I know of. And the depth of the work there is just incredibly powerful. So that would be a big invitation as every May. And I also lead an online dojo of awareness for men every year. and that's another great place to just meet me. Amazing. You both are so special individually and as a couple and the fact that you offer this extraordinary menu to men and women and couples today, I am so grateful. I just feel better in the world knowing that I can send everyone to you and enjoy your gifts myself and it's 11 years. I mean, wow, I'm like stunned by that. It's so extraordinary to have been a part of your life, Eli, all these years, and then to welcome in this beautiful woman into the fold and to feel so, I mean, you just feel so familiar to me, of course, right? Like it's like to be with you in person feels that way too, which I think a lot of women hold as one of the great barometers, right? Like when you meet a woman and you just feel like, we can be women together. I mean, it's some sort of recognition that happens and you have that in spades. So I'm so delighted to put people onto your work and we'll make sure the links are in show notes and I will have you both back on. It's been such a pleasure to do that and I love you guys. Thank you so much, Kelly. It's been fantastic. you