172: Bizzie Gold: Conventional Mental Health is Fixing The Wrong Thing

So here's the thing. No one is coming to turn you on. Not your husband, not the right mood, not the right moment, not good weather. Contrary to popular belief, turn on is a skill. It's not something that just happens to you. It's something you can actually learn and when you do, you live in a world of yes, of possibilities, and of sweetness. If you'd rather scroll or watch TV than make love, if you feel like you have to try hard to be sexy and plan lovemaking for it to be exciting. If you think low libido is just part of perimenopause, if you judge or resent other women and have grown a bit bitter, then my free August 12th turn on training with a very special guest is for you. We'll cover the real reason that desire disappears in long-term relationships, the four turn on myths that are keeping women tense and pleasure starved, and the simple skills to reconnect to desire on your own terms. No therapy, no retreats, no performative theatrics required. Claim a limited spot at kellybroganmd.com forward slash turn on. What we experience in our early childhood years with repetition, what characters are in what places and what behaviors are those characters doing? Those actually are what predict who you are, how you see the world, what psychological issues you're going to have or not. If that is true, much of what the mental health establishment has pushed for the last 100 years is of ours. You can get a mental health diagnosis on paper and somebody could be exactly where you are in the brain pattern spectrum, literally right next to you and not have a mental health diagnosis. Whatever label they've been given prior to arrival, you have to let that go. Let's put the label out to the side and let's work on mitigating and rewiring the things that are kicking off this label because that's not real. But these things are real, but these things can change. Hi and welcome back to Reclamation Radio. I am Dr. Kelly Brogan, and today's guest is the one and only Busy Gold, who is a behavioral expert, an author, and the founder of Break Method. We go into so many areas of overlap, it's almost uncanny. And our conversation spans from the predictive mind diagnostic method that she and her infinite nerdiness has created, which looks at thought, behavior, and decision-making patterns, and what it showed me that I have never seen about myself. We also talk about the five different brain types, and she essentially gives a masterclass, you're welcome, on the subject. We also talk about the difference and the nuance between abandonment and rejection, which are often conflated and sort of lumped together, and why segregating these out, if you want to understand your behavioral patterns and associated dysfunctions is totally essential. So enjoy. Welcome, Vizzy, to the show. I'm so excited to be here. This has been, I feel like, a long time in the making. Like many, many, many years because it's a very full circle moment consisting of multiple synchronicities for me because I've been a booty yoga fan for a million years and both have done classes in New York. And also my girlfriend Jamie's studio, The Peacemaker, we have pop-ups there and it's been hugely influential. In fact, it was probably the early introduction that I had to working with my hips that led to African dance and twerk and the passion that I have for all of these different varieties of dance and to learn about the fact that we have in common the art of the pivot, right? And that you've gone from being a founder in that realm to a very powerful disruptor in the same field as me in the mental health arena, if we want to phrase it that way, is just so exciting. So I am really looking forward to a very like-minded conversation about how we can reframe what we're referring to as so-called mental illness, these specific diagnostic labels that a lot of people are walking around with. And I want to start with talking a bit about my experience recently with your work. But before that, I want to just lay the context around the journey from, even as an entrepreneur, from where you came from in the space of fitness, wellness, and the progression to a focus on this resource and research and the offering that you have called Break Method. So I asked you this recently, and I'd love for you to share, like why mental health? Like why that of all the different topics you could have progressed into from movement, why this one? The irony is that I always tell people, I am the least likely candidate to have ever become a celebrity trainer. That actually is the joke. So when people are like, oh, how could you go from this to this? The irony is that I actually went from mental health into movement back to mental health again. And I think that was always my maybe origin career trajectory. That was always where I was supposed to go. And I think what a lot of people are catching up to now, I think, in the mental health space is how profound movement and somatic therapy modalities can be for mental health, right? It is a part of the medicine. And I think you know this. people tend to separate things rather than bring them together and have that holistic experience. So it's like, you're in this arena, I'm in this arena. When the reality is, I think we've lost touch with this idea that humans are actually built to be multidisciplinary and we're not meant to be boxed into this one very simplified piece, which is why this whole niche movement always pisses me off. And I'm like, you can't niche me down. Who do you think I am? If someone were to actually just listen to my thoughts in a span of five hours, there's no way to turn that into a niche. And I think we have tried to simplify things because it helps us maybe be able to understand each other better. But I think a lot of people who possibly now, I know it's kind of like a catchphrase now, the neurodivergent term, I'm certainly neurodivergent. I think we're wildly over labeling that, but I'm sure we'll dip back into that later. But I think looking at it from the label now that's, I think, cliche of neurodivergent, many of us that have strong metacognition and are operating more in flow state naturally, we're never going to think about just one thing all the time. We would get bored. I know I'm way too novelty seeking. I know from doing your brain pattern mapping session that you're super novelty seeking. I would get bored. I don't even think throughout my life, if I have to teach the same lecture content twice, I'm like, oh, boring. I don't think I can do this anymore. So then this idea that then people want you to go on tour and it's like, oh, I saw that you did this speech here. Can you do that for us? I'm like, no, I want to do something different. I don't want to do the same thing. Because to me, once it's come through, I've learned it, I've embodied it through teaching it and now can't it just live somewhere and I never have to go back to that again? So I think that's always kind of been who I've been where I'm... I think a lot of people who have kind of the teaching capacity that you and I do, it's almost like knowledge that is intended for the masses comes through us and we are a catalyst or some sort of like processing tool for that information. But once it's come through me once or twice, I'm ready to then build on top of it. So I'm always going to be iterating. I'll never get stuck in one spot. And the interesting thing is, and I don't know if you've run into this before, but I think when people aren't used to that constant iteration and pivoting and growing and changing, if they're trying to adjust to it, let's say in an employer-employee setting, some people can't keep that pace. And then they get frustrated with that piece. They're like, why is she always changing her mind? I'm like, I don't think you understand. I'm not changing my mind. I'm creating, observing, deciding if it was good or bad or where it needs to shift. And then I'm iterating every single time. So I think naturally, if somebody lives life that way, there's no way that you're ever going to stay in just one field. And to me, if I look back at my early childhood, certainly my life was very much painted and colored by having a mother with borderline personality disorder and just knowing I have to really firmly root into cataloging objective reality right now because every moment was very confusing, right? Because you either have to align with their distorted version of reality or you have to dig your feet in and essentially create really strong pattern recognition, almost a photographic memory so that you don't essentially let yourself get drawn into the crazy with them. So that was pretty much my whole childhood. And it was when I watched a movie Fight Club when I was probably 13 or 14 years old. And in the final scenes, when you see all the buildings blowing up and you realize, oh my God, these two main characters are actually one person and they don't realize that they're two separate people. I found this instantaneous empathy for my mom. And I feel like it immediately set me off on this mission to try to figure out, And this is not the kind way to say it or the professional way to say it, but how can crazy people don't know that they're crazy? What is that? How can you be so deep in your self-deception that even when faced with the objective record, you can't wind yourself out of it? And that was what really set me off on my journey in my early career, where I started off in hypnotherapy. And with hypnotherapy, a lot of the modality that I was working in, you're constantly working with the subconscious. And there was a very specific framework that I was trained in very early in my life. I think I was probably 19 or 20 when I got trained. And I started to notice very quickly that people's historical data, their client history that they would come in with, And that seemed to very clearly overlay a certain type of subconscious content, themes, cadence, and speech. And my pattern recognition brain was like, this can't be coincidental. When you see it that many times day in, day out, I started to realize there has to be something more here. And eventually I pulled out of that body of work because I felt like the modality itself was something that I think people were using out of curiosity rather than for healing. And that was kind of what made me put the brakes on. Because I think when you're opening up Pandora's box and you're going and then you're trying to kind of figure out what's going on in there, I think if you go into that opening experience with the wrong intention, really bad things can happen. And I don't know if you have, I'm sure you've found this in your work, but there needs to be somewhat of a pure intention and like a willingness to confront some of the hard stuff. And if you go into it thinking like, this is going to be so fun, right, kind of like a novelty curiosity. Eventually, when all of your shit slaps you in the face, then you're going to feel really destabilized because you weren't, you almost like went into it for the wrong reasons. You were seeking from curiosity rather than seeking to actually embody and heal and kind of keep growing. So in all of that work, I eventually kind of pivoted out of it, had a really severe child birth trauma with my oldest daughter. And that was what inevitably brought me into booty because it was the medicine that I needed. And going through something like that, you often, you don't need head medicine. You need like hip, heart, feminine medicine. And that was what I needed at that time. So that was what came for me. And I think, like I said, with people who, whatever word you want to use to describe it, whether it's a catalyst or a vehicle or a conduit, there are people in this world that are able to use their own pain and suffering to call in whatever medicine needs to be shared with the masses. and that really painful moment allowed me to bring that medicine through for the world. And when I felt like I had been healed by it and I was ready for the next thing, I'll always love booty and there will always be a part of me that will want to practice here and there, but that's not the medicine that I needed eventually. So I kind of moved on and iterated the next to the next. So I think sometimes people get stuck in kind of a more worldly perspective. Like once I picked my career, now I have to stay here and they actually don't let themselves be transformed. And that's one of the things that I've loved the most about admiring your career. And I think, I don't know if you know this, but I didn't, until I met you eventually, I didn't know that you knew about booty at all. Cause I've, I feel like our journeys have always kind of tracked parallel for so many years. And people are like, do you know, Kelly, I feel like you guys would get along so well. And then we both got dragged into some COVID drama for a little while together. And I'm like, yeah, there we are again. But yeah, I think all in all long-winded answer, but I think people get stuck with the world telling them that you have to pick this one zone and then you stay here and you become a master at this one zone. And I actually don't think that that's how we were created in our origin story of how human beings were intended to live on the earth and live with each other. I think we're meant to grow and change and then hopefully through entrainment, grow and change the people around us as well. And I think that's something that also can happen is that then if you get known in this sort of niche and you're in this career and you're growing and changing, people are like, well, you can't change. I need you to be like this. And it's like, no, but I'm not going to be like that. So then sometimes your audience turns on you. And I'm wholeheartedly at a place in my career where if me changing and growing is going to piss you off, then we're not aligned anyways. And that's okay. Go find the person that is for you in this moment because not everybody is for everyone in every moment. And I think we get kind of this anxious attachment. If you were for me for the last 10 years, you have to be with me forever. And I certainly don't feel that way. I want people to move on to whoever their next teacher is, whatever that next level is, because I don't think we're supposed to all be hitched to each other forever. That is some of the most relatable material I've ever heard. Literally, I look at people like Byron Katie, who I've had the pleasure of having on this show before and I look at how she's been teaching the work for decades, right? And so many teachers out there, they come upon something profound and meaningful and beautiful sort of their own life experience. And you know that they can be reliably found talking about that thing for years and years and years on end. And then I look at what could be like the dumpster fire of my evolution. And I have to sort of like squint to see what I know is there, which is a meaningful maturation, right? It's like, it does make sense where I've come from and where I'm going and that I have a personal brand that has with it, you know, the light and the shadow of being able to sell what lights me up and is exciting while also having my persona tied to a business. So there's a lot that goes with that. And yeah, I feel the same way. I mean, even speaking about telling the same story, even with my own friends, I'll be like, did I say that already? I get very self-conscious about repeating myself. There's something, call it novelty seeking, call it shiny object syndrome. It's very, very relatable. And you know, as well as I do, the archetypal tethers that keep us bound to the sameness, right? Like the perils of moving beyond the pale, right? Like how being the black sheep in your family comes with all of the trappings of the hero's journey and moving beyond the threshold. And you got to be cut out for it and know that that's what's actually going on. So I love what you're sharing. And I, unlike so many, would be signed up to see where you're going. Like, where are you going? That's exciting. It's like, please continue to reaffirm the same things you've been saying consistently. It's a very masculine quality to express that kind of consistency over time versus like, yeah, the iterative swirl that is you know, feminine energy. So. And I think one of the things with that is as I'm iterating, I kind of see it as more kind of literally rising above my work and continuing to see what I'm doing from different dimensions and different perspectives. Because it's very rare, especially if I look at maybe the last seven years, I don't think that I've ever shifted perspectives and then contradicted myself. Because I feel like there are people that are like, They're constantly changing and then it's like, well, do you think this or that? So I think if we look at my body of work, I don't think that I've ever wholly contradicted myself. I think what's happened is sometimes you start really close to something. So you can only kind of describe what you're really close to, right? Then you pull back a couple circles and you're like, oh, I see how this is connected to this, right? So I feel like I've kind of been in this journey of zooming out and understanding the length with the depth of it rather than just continually describing these small pieces. And to your point, I think some people, it is really masculine to be like, yeah, but my mastery is in these small pieces and people like these small pieces. I get bored too easily. And I feel like it's almost, you know, however, I don't know where your audience's spiritual leanings are at, but I feel like if we were created in God's image and God is like the master creator, it is our true nature to always seek to create and iterate and to understand. And I feel like in my life, God has really honored that curiosity because whenever I'm willing to ask deeper questions and not be so confirmation bias about my own work, it's always like, okay, now you're ready for the next level. I think people get afraid to challenge their own work and ask questions about their own work. And I'm really quick to do that. And I feel like the creator really honors that desire to question yourself and to... I love cognitive dissonance. If I notice a little edge in myself, I get excited rather than pull back. And I wish that more people were like that in the world because I think our world would look very different if every single thread in the fabric of the world was one where we got excited when we were confronted. I mean, it would look very different. I would want to live in that world. I would say that the arc of maturation for me, and I wonder if you can relate to this, always trends towards humility, right? Like I'll start out very passionate, almost like with a zealotry and a certainty, right? Like this is how it is. And then over time, I'll have experiences that generate cognitive dissonance and lead me to experience humility around my certainty and hold more lightly my former conclusions. like you, I never go back to believing something I formerly believed. It's almost like weaving some sort of very particular quilt of polarities to express something novel, right, that didn't exist in my purview when I just thought it was allopathy and natural medicine, or I just thought it was, you know, men versus women, or I just thought it, you know, was career woman or, you know, loser mom, you know, whatever I formerly thought. So I have a lot of experience at this point with being humbled, I guess, by my own process. And that requires a willingness to allow for that and not be threatened by it. And that's why I want to get into your methodology, because I know that you, even in this conversation, have a framework that you apply and a lens that you look through that's informed by the research and the application of your methodology to vast swaths of the population that allows you a mastery in pattern recognition that usually is reserved for a psychiatrist, right? So that's literally all we do is pattern recognize. There's no other valid scientific or medical underpinning to our diagnostic approach beyond pattern recognition. I've sometimes joked that if you can take a Cosmopolitan magazine quiz, you can participate in psychiatric diagnosis. I mean, that's all that is. It's a subjective framework, but you've taken it to a level of rigor that is really disruptive I would say So you talk about emotional rewiring and specifically looking at in your if I could call it like a treatment modality in your treatment modality break method, looking at a process for identifying and transforming these subconscious beliefs and associated patterns. But before you get to that, there is this assessment tool called brain mapping. Yeah. So that one's predictive mind, but the technology suite itself is predictive mind. Okay. So that's what I recently did, right? And it's always fascinating participating in these kinds of assessments because, again, knowing the bit that I do, I guess, in this arena, I'm self-observing as I'm doing it, kind of wondering what's being expressed. But what you look at is beliefs, the sources of beliefs, which I think is very novel. I don't know how often that root cause analysis is applied at scale and correlations between different patterns of belief. I think the most, I mean, I've mentioned this to probably like a dozen of my friends since we talked. The most fascinating thing that you could pick up on was the way that in me, perception of power in a dynamic influences whether or not I present as assertive or whether or not I fawn. because I've always been kind of confused by the fact that many people experience me as a pretty like scary person, right? And I have a mouth on me, trust me, like I can slice and dice if I need to. And I get so caught up in fawning and sometimes even freezing that my friends, like if we run into somebody like a fan or whatever on the street, if I'm with my friends, they know that they have to like budget in a half an hour for me to like try to extricate from a conversation I may not even really want to have. And I was telling you, even now I was sort of processing the fact that I have these two parallel dynamics in my life. One is a dynamic in the sort of like sovereignty lawful realm where a service that I paid for was definitely not rendered. And I can feel like the roar of the lioness that I know at this point to alchemize, but it's there. It's just chomping at the bit to tear this situation apart. And then I have this married guy who's rizzing me up at the gym. And three conversations later, I can't find it within myself to be like, yo, it'd be fun to talk to you if you were single, but you're not. So how about this chat's over? You know, like I just am like, oh, it's great that you were thinking about me this week. Like what? So how could that be the same person? Right. And you helped me to appreciate that it's the power dynamic that when I feel in a power position, I fawn when I feel vulnerable. Right. So I feel transgressed. I feel wronged in this other situation in my victim. And I manifest the villain energy. Right. So I'm in that sort of victim triangle. I never really could parse it out, and I always found it confusing. And so it's beyond just awareness, and it's beyond just the illumination of behaviors. There's something very deep that I got from that. And I have no doubt that proceeding with the methodology that you've developed to work with this and transform this would be extremely powerful for me. So I'd love to hear a bit more about the development of this tool and, yeah, just sort of like how you see it best applied. Like who are the folks that you think could benefit most from this kind of analysis? I mean, imagine the answer is everybody. But you've probably designed it with particular kinds of folks in mind, I'm guessing. So there's two separate pieces of it. There's the predictive mind side, which is the diagnostic evaluation side that you did. It takes about 20 to 30 minutes and you can complete it from wherever you are on your computer. And I know one of the things that I showed you is we do track how long certain things take you. So we can actually look at your behavior and heat mapping as you're taking the diagnostic. And one of the things that you should all know about your hostess with most of the show is that this girl is decisive. for better or for worse. For better or for worse. You had the quickest aggregate responses I've ever seen in a brain pattern mapping session. I think it's called impulsivity in some settings. Honestly, it looks a lot like mine. You and I have, we have certain pathways where we diverge, but I haven't seen many people be as decisive. And obviously on mine, I'm going to be really decisive. I designed it. So I know what I'm doing. But I think big picture, when it comes to the diagnostic side, one of the things that's really important for the audience to grasp is that we are able to understand the root cause of thought, behavior, and decision-making patterns using only historical data points. And I think this is the most novel thing about it is that in many, and obviously not necessarily psychiatry specifically, but let's look at kind of more narrative-based talk therapy as a whole. Oftentimes, for a therapist to observe what's going on with you, you have to talk about narrative-based answers, right? So they're asking you questions about childhood, how you feel about this, how you feel about that, what happened with this person, what happened with that person. We don't do any of that. There is not one piece of that in the entire diagnostic evaluation. And yet, we are able to land at very specific pattern diagnostics that also could be effectively passed on to a psychiatrist to show you, hey, this is the root cause of their personality disorder. These are the things that are going on with them. And then effectively, if that person was seeking medication, the information that we give that practitioner or that provider is ultimately extremely valuable to them because it speeds up the time to understand the root cause and the why. Ultimately, I think we're both aligned that I think there are very few uses, I think, for psychiatric intervention initially. Of course, if it's like an acute situation, like schizophrenia and some other things, okay, I get some of those things. But I think a lot of my body of work shows that, and we talked about this very early on in the episode, we're very quick to label things. We're like, X, Y, Z, and D, when clustered together, mean this label. And if you have this label, then you get this prescription. We're like, right, organizing this makes it neat and tidy, and then I can understand my world and then I can move on. when the reality is what brain pattern mapping shows, which you were speaking to, where it's like such a high level of accuracy that even you who's done all this work, you're like, wow, okay, yes, all those things are true. And then actually this is that one nugget that I'd never considered before that now unlocks this whole puzzle. So now it all makes sense. Because now we know if how you're perceiving power in each individual instance is actually what's changing your behavior, now we know that your perception is gonna generate language and we know what language we now have to shift in that moment so that you can free yourself and be like, Hey man, if you're ever not married, look me up. Otherwise, we're not talking anymore. But we'd have to address that on the level of thought and the language that is generated when we're thinking, right? And that's kind of where the break method piece of the, not what is the problem, but what do we now do with that problem to bring the person back into balance? I'm going to put balance in air quotes because I think ultimately you've seen what the brain pattern spectrum looks like, which I can kind of describe to the audience in a moment. But ultimately, out of 8 billion people in the world, I have found that there's essentially five brain pattern types. There's five versions of us. And there's subtypes within that. In brain pattern mapping, we track nine different markers. So once we understand the seven markers kind of underneath those two belief markers that Kelly has been talking about, then we kind of understand the nuance of within your pattern cluster, where are you specifically? So kind of exactly what hash mark are you? And when we're able to put you on a very specific hash mark, when I'm able to meet with the client, I'm able to tell them very specific information about themselves. But usually they start giggling and they're like, this is creepy. How did you do that? What? Because we're able to get to even the secrets that you keep, the ways that you're really good at masking. But I know what's really going on on the inside. And people usually will just either start laughing or crying. And then the odd person will be like, that's really creepy. I'm afraid of you right now. I'll take all of them. They're all times that I'm doing my job. So what we get to eventually is this idea. Let's say if the spectrum is divided into left and right halves, Kelly and I are both kind of center left. Kelly's a little bit further left than I am. For us, healing or balance is us being able to move back toward the center, but still having dynamic range. And this is something that I think is really important for people to understand is that human beings, we're not intended to be one way all the time. We're actually supposed to have a lot more dynamic range than we do. And what happens as a result of our childhood inputs is that we do kind of get locked in this very specific arc, right? So Kelly's arc was kind of going from the extremely assertive dominating in one instance or fawning, freezing in another instance, which I'm sure, and I know I mentioned this to you on our session, that can feel really frustrating because you're like, I know who I am. I know what I'm capable of. Why? Why in this one instance do I keep acting in a way that I know is not who I am? Because I think for you, and I know we talked about this on your session, who you feel like you are on the inside is much more that dominant, assertive person. And then when the other part of it creeps in, it's going to frustrate you because that feels like... Weak. It feels weak. Yeah, totally, totally weak. So what Kelly and I both would need to do is we need to learn how to, and I'm sure as I'm saying this, Kelly and I are both like, okay, we're working, we're a work in progress. We can both handle a lot of instability, a lot of chaos, because that's how our, it's the environment, it's the petri dish that our childhood brain pattern was cultured in. So really for both of us, and I know that Kelly's landed this plane much more than I have when I heard about all of the free time she's been able to garner by hiring the right people. I'm like, can I be you when I grow up? But for both of us, if we can learn to have more stability and peace and actually let our nervous system read that as peace rather than an opportunity to start self-sabotaging because both Kelly and I, if our life was too peaceful and stable, surely, and thankfully, I've been happily married for seven years and I've stopped doing this to myself, but early life busy would go probably destroy that with a really toxic relationship. Like, let's just, how can we really just like fight right now? Let's mix it up a little bit. So Kelly and I both would need to learn how to align with stability and peace and consistency as peace rather than boring or something like something's wrong. I need to kind of shake things up. But for people who are naturally more oriented toward the center of the spectrum, there's a part of the spectrum that I call the circle of complacency. People there don't take a lot of risk. Therefore, there's not a lot of reward. Their lives are very monotonous. And there can be some benefits to that, of course. And often with these clients, I'll have these clients come to me when they're sudden empty nesters or if they get laid off and all of a sudden they didn't try to disrupt their lives, but their lives were nonetheless disrupted. And then they don't know who they are anymore because their whole identity was built in that sort of stability and monotony. So I'm showing you these two foils because true healing means that a person in the center that doesn't know how to take any risk and they don't know who they are, they need to embody more of what Kelly and I are. And Kelly and I need to take some cues from what they are. And we need to learn to strategically hold ourselves in something that's boring a little bit longer, learn how to kind of push through some of that resistance where I don't want to teach this again. Well, is it possible that maybe if you teach this four times, even though you're going to be bored is how on the other side, you actually will learn something new about it and push through it. That is your resistance, is the boredom. So I think big picture what brain pattern mapping does is it shows us how we see the world, of course, how our brain is focused on attention. So some people's brain pattern types will have them very focused on situational awareness. They can track every last detail in their external world, but at the expense of maybe missing what their boyfriend is doing right in front of them, right? I don't care about you personally because I'm worried about this whole bigger situation and everybody that's in it versus some people on the right side of the spectrum will miss all of the external cues. The situational awareness will be lacking, but they'll be hyper fixated on what I think you're thinking. Both are out of balance, right? We need to be somewhere in the middle where we're reasonably situationally aware. So we're not going to get lost in our own house or on our own street, but we also need not fixate on what others are thinking and feeling because then we usually get tied into some sort of like projection, assumption, blame shifting loop where we're deciding how you feel about me, but really, I've not actually tested the waters and none of that's in sort of verbal, tangible communication or behaviors. So when we look at this whole spectrum, what we're seeing is that with these nine markers, we can understand who you are and how you see the world, what you're paying attention to and what you're ignoring, even though you can't necessarily tell that yet, what your self-deception patterns are, how your brain is tricking you into labeling things in a very constrained way. Because once we think we see something, our emotional response is going to be downstream of that. And then our behavior is changing. Thus, Kelly, as soon as you see the guy in the gym, all of a sudden, the Kelly that you could be with me or with people where you do feel like it's safe to be yourself, suddenly that goes away. Why? Because your brain observed something in him or in the situation that is now shifting you biochemically. And suddenly that behavior is not available to you. It's hidden from you until afterwards you're like, why didn't I do that? And ultimately, this is why people get so frustrated that to me, awareness by itself does very little. Like awareness, I feel like it's actually quite annoying. A lot of people are very aware of the bad things that they do. But if you haven't effectively learned how to disrupt those patterns and stop them, in a way, it's almost better that you just are not even aware. At least you can be blissfully angry. Totally. Yeah. I've described it as leaning into the non-dominant response, but even that is a bit vague, right? Because if you don't know what that would look like and you haven't really characterized the specific beliefs that are underpinning your shift in identity out of a more familiar, let's say, archetype, then it's not helpful. Yeah. So I'm curious, is it easy to summarize kind of the five types that you've seen? Because I imagine a lot of folks would be curious, like how simply we can be distilled down as complex humans. So yeah, out of the nine markers, they do flow top down. So I call it the neurocognitive funnel. The easiest way to understand it is that how we perceive reality is going to inform how we're responding biochemically with motion. And then that biochemical response is going to inform how we're behaving. So if we look at this top-down funnel approach, the top two markers are the source belief markers. So there's an origin source belief and there's an adaptive source belief. Those two are what decide the different clusters on the spectrum. Once you start to build in the other markers, then we decide where specifically you are in your cluster. So that's how the organization works. If we go all the way to the farthest left, so we'll go all the way left to all the way right. If we go all the way to the farthest left, what we see is a brain pattern type that is highly situationally aware, but at the very top level, right? They're so situationally aware that they can track every single detail in their world. But as one could imagine, if you're aware of everything at all times and you can't shut that off, that is probably going to be experienced like a paranoia. So what we have in the very farthest left side is that you are incredibly situationally aware. You're also incredibly hyper-independent, probably so much so that you've pushed away everybody, isolated yourself completely, because everybody feels unsafe. Again, going back to that kind of compounding paranoia. And when you're all the way to the left, your desire to control your external environment to stay safe is at the absolute maximum. So what ends up happening as a result, typically, is that that person's communication filter is completely compromised. So as a result of all of the way they see the world and what they think the dangers are and that they're pervasive everywhere, this person is probably going to be communicating in a way to others that would give the signs that there's probably some severe psychological issue at play. Because the example would be in certain and there can be schizophrenic cases on the far left and the far right. But in a schizophrenic like presentation, this person might be expressing paranoia in a way that other people are like, I don't see that there. What are you talking about? But they can't communicate. They can't shift their communication to be matched with what other people would need them to say. So everything's just going to be very impulsive, very matter of fact, and possibly out of the paranoia be about things that other people can't even see. If we're talking higher dimensions, So if we move a little bit in from that, now we've decreased situational awareness ever so slightly. We've also decreased our desire to control our external world ever so slightly. So now we're in kind of more of an overt control style person who is very authoritative and very assertive and very direct, but now not paranoid. Right. So when you go in slightly, now the paranoia is decreased. Now this person is just hypervigilant, highly observant, very structured. They're not going to be easy to collaborate with. This is a high likelihood to be like a CPA or someone that they need structure and they can't deviate from the structure whatsoever. So that's the abandoned control type. The whole left side is rooted in abandonment or oriented wounds, which ultimately is a byproduct of, to some extent, not trusting your primary caregiver or caregivers and deciding I'm better off trusting myself than trusting any of you, right? That's kind of the origin kickoff point of any of these left-side spectrum patterns. If I go in slightly from that now, because remember this is a spectrum, so now slightly less control-oriented, though still control-oriented, this is where we start to find Kelly's pattern, which is that switch pattern. So this is where now you can kind of, you don't necessarily understand why you turn it on and off, but in certain circumstances, you can be dominant, assertive. And ultimately, this comes back to feeling safe. If you feel like you're in charge of the power dynamic and you control safety, then you become dominant. If all of a sudden, you find yourself in a situation where you don't really know how to control for that, suddenly, you're going to flip the script and be a little bit more of the fawning, possibly people-pleasing, placating, freeze response. So now we're shifting a little bit in. So now, instead of the overt control style, you're the switch control style, which actually has three subtypes tied to it. And the subtypes have to do with the other markers. So the subtypes would be what causes you to switch. So we isolated for yours that yours is a combo platter of relational and security based. So relational means in XYZ circumstances, like intimate relationship, I'm like this. And with friendship and employees, I'm like this. So that's one way to look at it. The security base is as I'm getting to know you, I feel less safe because I don't necessarily know how to control you yet or I don't know who you are and how you're going to show up. So a security base is more likely to play the game and be more diplomatic and slow roll their real persona as they're getting clear on how the other person's going to show up or respond to it. Then once they feel safe and it feels like, okay, we're in a relationship now. I'm hired now, whatever that sort of transaction might be. Then all of a sudden, the person's real dominant persona comes out because now it feels safe. So you had a mixture of those two in your brain pattern now, which placed you in a very specific spot on the brain pattern spectrum. So that's we see a shift from a overt control style to a covert control style. If we go in a little bit more to the center, now we're in just straight a covert control style. So this is very manipulative, very subversive. They're going to let you think that you're on board, but really they're going to be working back behind you to try to manipulate people or coerce people into doing it their way. So this person's going to be very slippery, right? They just don't want to get in trouble, but they're also not going to boldly just be like, no, I don't want to do that. They're going to completely subvert you twist the narrative and they just going to be very sneaky This is a really tough one because they actually are very capable And this is something that I seen in my organization I seen some people with this brain pattern type be really capable, but just incapable of being direct and honest. If you confront them with something, they're just going to lie and lie some more and not take ownership and try to fix it in the background without actually... Just try to see if they can avoid getting caught. So from an employer standpoint, this one's a really tough pill to swallow, especially because they can be great, but when they're bad, they're so bad. So that's that covert control style. Now, if we go in, so this is the kind of center most left pattern. So the center most abandonment pattern is one that is very oriented around being a mediator, a peacekeeper. They're placating and people pleasing, but they don't have an agenda. They're very quick to drop their agenda. So the distinction here is that covert control style, they very much have an agenda and they're not going to drop their agenda, right? They can still be very self-centered. once we get to that center left pattern, this person has no self-preservation to speak of, right? If they think that being a martyr or kind of not doing what they want to do is going to keep the environment safe or peaceful for other people, they will just give up on themselves every single time and keep serving others. So the biggest issue with this pattern really is that they overgive, overextend, bring themselves out, eventually can still become rageful because any human can only take so much before they snap. But ultimately, this pattern, their control style, if you really call it that, is really just to self-sacrifice to control for the external world. So that's that whole left side of the spectrum. So we really ultimately, if we're looking at it from kind of like a high level, it really is the maximum overt control to ultimately helping other people by completely self-sacrificing. Then if we cross over to the other side of the spectrum, Now this whole right side, these are all patterns rooted in rejection. And this is something that I feel like I have seen missed time and time again in the kind of mental health establishment is the conflating of abandonment and rejection wounds, which I see as completely stolen separate. There's no crossover whatsoever. Have you noticed that at all in your career that they tend to kind of intermingle those words when they're not? Absolutely. Yeah, I would say betrayal, abandonment, rejection are kind of lumped together as the common origin of all of our relational issues. That's why I love this work. First of all, thank you for this masterclass. Please continue. And I hope this isn't boring for you because I know you've said this shit before probably many times. This is amazing. The work is really complex and I love to be able to speak to it in a way that helps people visualize. because it's three-dimensional. And I know that that can be tough for people. A lot of podcasts are like, just, yeah, tell me how to fix it in three stops. And I'm like, no. No, it's nuanced and complex. Even while you're talking, I'm thinking of my mentor, Nick Gonzalez. And he worked with 12 different autonomic types from sympathetic dominant to parasympathetic dominant and associated diets. And I'm sort of tracking. Like, you know, he never, of course, talked about abandonment, origin, conflicts, but everything you just described is the sympathetic dominant side of the chart. So this is totally fascinating. Please proceed. Well, and I think big picture, when I'm able to pass more of this on to you, I feel like it will, you will be able to see kind of the algorithm come to life and see its intersection with so many different things. because what I really feel like what brain pattern mapping does is it really, it's like a codex. Once you understand it, if you understand lots of other things, all of a sudden, if you overlay brain pattern mapping on top of virtually anything else, you're like, oh my, oh my God, it all makes sense. So if I go to the right side now to help the audience understand the distinction between abandonment and rejection, to feel abandoned, you have to fundamentally not trust primary caregivers, right? The abandonment is like, why do I know how to do this and you don't? So there's this sort of rising up of, I'm not necessarily in a judgmental way, but the child has to effectively become an adult early because they're able to realize somehow, even though you guys are the adults in the room, I know more about this than you do. And to keep myself and even maybe siblings safe, I have to become an adult early because I can't trust that you guys are going to do the right thing. I can already see things that you're not seeing. So I'm just going to be off on stage left and become hyper-independent and more into my masculine and then let the chips fall where they may. On the right-hand side, the rejection-oriented patterns, typically at least one primary caregiver, they very much want to seek love and validation reassurance from. It doesn't always have to be both. And one of the things that I have found really interesting in going through all of the data for the last 12 years is there is a very specific historical data set and correlation where if kids grow up in a very kind of like free-for-all environment where the parents are drug addicts, specifically like the meth, heroin variety where the parents are just completely checked out, often these kids end up with rejection wounds, which is really interesting because you would think with a certain kind of recipe of trauma, they would end up not trusting their primary caregivers. But what ends up happening is that if the parents are like kind of from start to finish checked out and kind of maybe oscillating between like party vibes and whatever, what ends up happening is that the kids don't understand structure enough to understand that their parents aren't meeting the structure. So there's this kind of interesting environment where typically in a setup like that, the kids are somewhat isolated. Their parents aren't doing heroin and meth and then taking them to preschool. So they're just completely lacking structure as a whole. So they kind of only know what they know. And it feels like they're being rejected rather than abandoned because they don't actually know what structure or control is. So they don't know what they're missing. And I've seen this happen a lot over the last years where in the beginning, confirmation bias would have told me, obviously, if you have trauma with parents with drug addicts, then obviously you'd be this way. But the exact opposite I found is true because I think that structure is never demonstrated to them. So the kids don't know what they're missing. So what can happen there is even if there's physical abuse, if the physical abuse follows the repeated pattern, the kids often can still want to seek the validation and praise of their parents, right? So the key is that to be abandoned, there had to be a breakdown in structure where the kid was like, I see what the structure is supposed to be and y'all aren't doing it. So I'm going to do that for myself or do that for somebody else. On the right-hand side, there is a structure that the child can understand or in the case of severe drug abuse, a complete absence of it without anything to connect the dots to. In which case, the child ends up feeling like, mom just doesn't want to be with me. Let's use the example of drug addiction. When mom's on heroin, the child doesn't know what heroin is. It's like, well, mom obviously hates me. I'm not enough for mom when they're not realizing mom's on heroin. Example, if this were a left spectrum person, even at four years old, the kid would have been like, beep, boop, mom's doing drugs. I don't necessarily know what that is, but I put all the pieces together and I don't know what the words are yet. But I know when mom has a vial next to her, then XYZ is going to happen. What we've seen on brain pattern mapping is that using that example of the severe drug addiction, the kids don't even realize in that case that the parents are using until way later in life because they didn't know how to put pieces together. So that's one of the things that we track for is basically the pattern recognition. How early on are you able to put the pieces together and kind of anticipate what's really going on? And with the rejection-oriented patterns, in addition to kind of more validation-seeking behaviors and kind of like wanting your parents to love or accept you, there can also be cases where the parents actually handicap the kids by enabling, overgiving, not letting the children actually face the consequences of their real life actions, right? So the parents are always kind of like coming up behind them and cleaning up. Those can also very much cause rejection-oriented patterns. So if we start at the center, and we go out to the right, I always call it the mirror effect. So I described kind of that inner center left pattern where they're very mediating peacekeeping. There's going to be a lot of mirror effect on the right-hand side with that very first chunk of patterns on the right. The difference is the person on the left is peacekeeping and mediating because I don't want you to escalate, right? It's for the purposes of safety. I'm not doing it for myself. I don't really care what you think of me. I just need to keep the peace externally. If I flip over to that right side, my actions might be exactly the same. But why I do it is that I want you to see me as confident, respectful. I want to be part of the in-group. I need you to like me so that I can feel like I'm enough. The person on the left, same things, but they don't really care what you think about them. So that's really how we start to understand where you are helps us understand how you see the world and how you see yourself in the world. So the more people-pleasing, placating-oriented patterns are in that sort of center-right position. And then as we keep moving out, now we're getting into more conflict-prone patterns where with the rejection-oriented, we subdivide based on whether you're people-pleasing or conflict-prone. And then we subdivide again based on whether the way you carry out that protection strategy is to engage or isolate. So some people-pleasing patterns will engage, right? You're a chameleon. You want to fit into the group. You want to serve people. So maybe you overgive. Maybe you people please. Maybe you take on the traits of the group verbally and be like, oh my God, yeah, I totally love that. Even if on the inside, you're like, I hate that. I'm scared showless, right? So that's the engaging side. The people-pleasing, isolating side, they would keep up appearances, do the right thing, and they're very driven by a sense of duty and responsibility, but they feel like the safest way to be in the in-group is to be on the outside, to be in support roles. They're not going to go thrust themselves into the center. They're going to be dependable and committed, but they want to stay in the background, more that wallflower. But what's key here is, as you can imagine, and I know that you're visual like I am, as you can imagine, there are some people that hang out on the outside, but they're hanging out on the outside because they're afraid to go in, and they're afraid of what would happen if they X, Y, Z, that's where you start to see, okay, well, that thinking leads itself to a conflict-prone pattern because there's a part of them that's like, well, I'm afraid to do this because then what if you, right? So then we know if we're thinking like that, now we're moving slightly more to the right because the people-pleasing patterns, they just don't want to ruffle any feathers. They're not mad. They're not going to assume anything negative. They're like, oh, no, I'm just going to hang out on the back. You know, just let me know if I need anything. But they're going to, you know, be relatively avoided and non-committal. thus why they're toward the center of the spectrum in that circle of complacency. But now if we get into the conflict-prone isolating pattern, this person's hanging out in the background, and maybe they're good at keeping up appearances. They just want to be a cheerleader. But on the inside, the conflict-prone isolating is still thinking about what they wish they could do. Well, I would do this if they weren't going to do that. And then it becomes this sort of projection field of like, well, how do you know that would happen? Like, you just decided that, you know, I can't do that with Busy and Kelly because they're going to judge me. It's like, well, how do you know? Did you do it? Did you wait to see how we would behave in that situation? No. In your head, you decided how it was going to go. And now you're using that to justify not even trying. So that's the conflict-prone isolating pattern. If we go a little bit further, now we're in the conflict-prone engaging pattern. And as you can imagine, there's a lot of these in the world. I'm sure you've dealt with a lot of these in your life. I have as well. They are looking for a fight virtually all the time. Their brain is constantly turning people against them. And I'm sure you already got there. This is where a lot of the personality disorder clusters start to begin, right? Where they're so deep rooted in their assumption and how their skewed perception of the world and the people in it is they don't understand that that's not at all aligned with objective reality. And they're very quick to push buttons and effectively cause themselves to get rejected, but ultimately so that they can be the victim of their circumstance. So then we're in that conflict-grown engaging pattern. Now, if I keep moving all the way to the right, there's this interesting cluster that I've found. The more data you get, the more you start to find things that when you get bigger, you notice maybe it looks like a statistical anomaly, but now that you've been doing it for X, Y, Z years, you're like, no, no, this is not a statistical anomaly. This is another subtype. So there's this subtype that I found on the very far right before we get into the last pattern, which I'll go into last. But there's this tiny little sliver that I have called the cowboy pattern. There's a lot of reasons for it. It also is because one of my clients that ended up really tipping me off of this is also a cowboy. So that's part of it as well. But it's very fitting to the persona of a person who would be here. So the interesting thing about the cowboy pattern is that in essence, they function like an abandonment. For all intents and purposes, they think like an abandonment, they function like an abandonment, but their childhood looks like they should be where they are. So what I've found is the distinction is that there's typically something that happens between roughly 16 and 20. So it has to be like young adulthood, late childhood, young adulthood years, where something caused them to turn away from the structure of their family where they're like, you know what? F this. I'm not doing this anymore. So it's kind of a very intentional pendulum swing, but it's a pendulum swing that didn't happen without their conscious awareness. Therefore, they're able to maintain it. They made a really clear choice. And because they pendulum swung themselves, they're able to stay there. Because also, this type, while they function effectively like an abandonment, see the world that way, they have a really strong sense of duty and a care for what other people think about them that abandonments don't have. And that's why I started to notice this is a strange anomaly that doesn't really make sense. And with those nine markers, they have very, very, very specific of the bottom four. Their bottom four markers look precise every single time. So we can see these. I can see them from 100 feet away. And once we get those markers in place, we realize, okay. And then when we're sharing that information with the cowboy, they're like, this is crazy because it's so specific of all the pattern types where kind of pulling the thread to see like, what's in here? What is this person? How does this person see the world? How do they think? How do they respond? When you're able to call attention to, there was a moment, I don't know, that's for you to know when this was, but there was a moment when XYZ happened. They're like, I remember, I literally remember the day. I remember the smell of the air when I made this decision. And they're like, how could you possibly know that. And it's because of pursuing this, what I thought was a statistical anomaly, only to find out it is its own subtype. So this is relevant. The cowboy thing is relevant because unlike the other ones, which can be very control oriented and they very much care how other people see them, the cowboy position is kind of like a honey badger. They actually are incredibly contrarian. They're willing to kind of push a bunch of edges and they don't really care. They often can be, I would say, strategically reckless. They're not reckless, like out of control and can't pull it in. But they're usually very adventure-seeking, very novelty-seeking. They really love to live on the edge. But ultimately, while they love to live on the edge, and I'm sure other people may see them as chaotic, they have a very strong sense of duty and personal responsibility. Like this person is loyal AF and will never let you down. But if somebody's just kind of observing them from the outside, you might look at them and assume that they're not loyal or committed, but they actually are one of the most loyal committed patterns in the entire spectrum. The very last one is a pattern that's actually, instead of rooted in rejection, the pattern's rooted in chaos, where their childhood leads them to believe that there's no use in trying to do anything because everything is one big practical joke and I'm going to be the butt of the joke. So instead of trying to not get rejected, they actually become the chaos that they experienced as a child and they decide nothing matters. I'm not even going to try. And ultimately, they go toward rejection. So I know I kind of briefly touched on how we have an origin source belief and an adaptive source belief. All the left side patterns, their origin is abandonment. All the right side patterns, except the chaos pattern, their origin belief is always be rejected. The chaos pattern actually starts with life is chaos and eventually goes to and always be rejected as a result of that, right? So what they're not seeing is that they've become the chaos. And because they don't try, yes, you will always get rejected. If you try to actually be an asshole and you don't do anything in your life and you think that everything doesn't matter, you're in a deep existential crisis, everything's futile, so why even try? Of course, you're going to get rejected because you're not doing it, right? So that's that far right side. On the left side, all of the adaptive source beliefs talk about what their control strategy is, right? So the adaptive would either be like control to be safe, the overt switch, covert, et cetera. And then abandon hold it all together is that middle left pattern. So on this right-hand side, once you get to the chaos rejection pattern, this is where in everyday life, I see this very rarely, but I've also done work in prison systems and I've done work in therapeutic residential programs. And unfortunately, as you can imagine, in those two groups, the chaos rejection pattern is statistically overrepresented. So you don't ever really see it like in just my normal everyday practice, almost never seen it. I think there's probably like five of these records total in all my early work. Then when you suddenly go to the prison system, very high representation. Why? Well, I'm glad you asked, Kelly. When you see the world this way and your behavior follows that belief, you're highly likely to commit crime because nothing matters anyways, right? So I think this is where we kind of land. Once we understand where you are, we can actually at a very high accuracy level predict what you're going to do with your life. The top 1% of every company, every sector of every industry, all the top entrepreneurs, they're in these two tiny little clusters. Cowboy has a lot of them. And right where you are to where I am kind of the middle of the left, very high statistical likelihood. Virtually everywhere else, they're not there, but I can tell you what jobs they would likely have, which to me, this all calls into question. And I know you kind of hit on it a little while ago. What brain pattern mapping shows us is that actually without a shot, because I wouldn't be able to do what I do if this was not true. What we experience in our early childhood years months, like how I felt about that. It literally is what characters are in what places and what behaviors are those characters doing in a way that anyone could answer. Those actually are what predict who you are, how you see the world, what psychological issues you're going to have or not. It'll also predict whether you manage your time well or not, right? It'll tell us everything we need to know about whether you have executive function or executive dysfunction. If that is true, much of what the mental health establishment has pushed for the last 100 years is a farce. Mic drop. I don't know. It's a farce. And I guess my question is, do they know it's a farce? Is it, you know, I guess because I think about this all the time. Who am I to have landed on this information? If I could land on this, somebody else had to have landed on it. Did we ignore it to be pushed off to the side because it didn't fit what kind of the Rockefeller pharmacological establishment wanted because I'm not a rocket scientist, Kelly. And yet... No, you are clearly a very special mega nerd because the way your analytic mind and obviously the creative lens that you look through operates is very unique. I mean, I've been in this field almost two decades and I've never encountered somebody who can both enter into the statistical, you know, sort of very pragmatic realm of analysis while also seeing the big picture of these patterns that become almost poetic. You know, it really is this crossroads. And, you know, I guess my conclusion as far as the medical industrial complex goes is that it's not broken. It was designed that way. And even when you were saying earlier that somebody could take these results to their psychiatrist to reveal or at least expedite an understanding of the root cause, and I was thinking, well, what would be the point of that? Because that's not the way we are trained to... We don't ask why. We're not trained to ask why we are trained to problem solve and fix. And that's why I was attracted to conventional medicine and allopathy is because I I love me a good solution to a problem. And the conclusion that I came to over time was that it's not actually a solution. These medications don't actually work. And if they did, I'd still be there. But they don't. And that over of efficacy then of course obscures the untold adverse effects and it becomes a real mess But I want to, I mean, I could talk to you about this all weekend. It's just so important, the work that you're doing. And I just feel so inspired and really also in ways called out because there's so many of us who are in this very reductionistic perspective around the patterns of human behavior, you know, sort of like anxious attachment dyad kind of a thing. And you bring so many layers to the personalization and it's very humanizing. Like that's what I feel is like even just through the science of what you've been doing, there is a humanizing effect that's really refreshing and somehow resolves the objectification that can come through a lot of these sort of more attachment-focused boxes that we end up putting each other into, especially in romantic relationship. So I could talk to you all day. However, I would say one of the last questions I want to tee up is what you started to touch on. Obviously, you have your personal experience as a sweet little angel baby with your mom. And you talked about these right-sided spectrum expressions of what end up being labeled as cluster B personalities, right? So sociopathy, narcissism, I don't know if sociopathy would fit in there, but narcissism and borderline. And we are taught in our training that these are recidivistic. There is really no way out. And it's really just management. Most psychiatrists, I think, would agree that even medicating a borderline, so-called borderline, is somewhat futile. Of course, they always end up on some cocktail of pharmaceuticals. But I had Sam Vakman on the show, and he is a self-proclaimed narcissist, and he himself said he doesn't think that so-called narcissists can ever heal or change. Now, that's not the world I choose to live in, and I don't think it's the one that you do, but who am I to keep him from his consistent experience of his own pathology, whatever. But I wanted to talk about that because if we're exposing patterns, especially ones that impact our most intimate relationships, so that codependent narcissistic dance is probably the most notorious of our time. I mean, there's just not anybody, even including my own daughters who don't recognize the terminology and don't have some perspective on what it would be or what it has been to find themselves in that kind of dynamic. So what would you say is your perspective at this point in terms of the potential that folks who have these kinds of expressed patterns have to evolve, change, mature, grow out of them? What does that look like? Well, we have really great testimonials from people with borderline personality disorder with break. And I think I can try to quickly explain why and also with narcissism. And I'm with you. I 100% with my eyes and all of my senses have seen people come out of that and sustain that for prolonged periods of time. So a lot of the people, I think I first started teaching break method as it is now at the very beginning of 2017. So some of these people I've observed in my life now over almost 10 years, and a lot of these people are completely different people now. So I'm a firm believer that literally anybody is capable of change. How long it takes them to get there, that is up in the air, right? One of the things that we do in break method is break method is a very specific structure and you can't change the structure. And to me, this is one of the biggest flaws in narrative talk therapy-based mental health is that if, you know, let's say you ask a question and the person doesn't want to answer that question or they're like, oh, I don't feel like doing that today. Or like, we can just stop for today. You're missing all these opportunities where if that person is triggered or you've found an edge, from my perspective, that's not where you back down. Because if the client is able to guide the trajectory of what they do and don't want to talk about, we've already completely lost the plot because they're not going to want to do any of the things that are actually going to help them get to the other side. So I always use the example with break method that anybody who... And obviously, this is a little crude, but I think it's the best example ever. So if you are agreeing to do break method, right? And I showed you your brain pattern map and you're like, holy crap, that is way too accurate. Help me now. You're effectively, if you choose to do break method, you are choosing to be a rat in a maze. Knowing that I built the maze. When you get to the other side of the maze, you will learn everything you need to know to basically save yourself, right? I'm not saving you. I'm teaching you how to save yourself so that you can maintain that for the rest of your life. I'm a firm believer that doing anything that takes away a person's personal agency and gets them to be codependent with you, that is not healing. I want no part of it whatsoever. So even though when I tell clients this all the time, I can tell you all the answers, but that's not going to help you in any way, shape, or form. If you do what I tell you to do, it'll work. But if you don't understand why it worked, you can't do it by yourself for the rest of your life. And then I've not done my job at all. So people have to work for it and break. But you're agreeing to be a rat in a maze, right? Now, you know, there's going to be a lot of areas of discomfort in this maze and you're going to hate me along the way. There are going to be certain parts of the work that you absolutely hate. But because we know your brain pattern, we're able to support you in anticipation of those things like, hey, this next lap that we're going around, here's what I want you to do when you're going through XYZ exercise. It's going to be great, right? And because you kind of knew, okay, this one might be a little hard for me, but I already got strategy on how to overcome this. You start to see like, I already know that I'm going somewhere and that there's a set sequence and I'm not going to be in this forever. Because I think sometimes with traditional therapy, there's no sense of like, where am I going? When am I getting there? What am I doing here? How do I know if it works? Like, what are the signs? And with break method, it's the exact opposite. It's a set sequence. You know exactly what you're doing in what order. You know what you should feel when you get to different places so that if you get to a place and you're like, I don't feel that. It's like, okay, well, let's go back and figure out what happened at XYZ step. And what also happens is that we are... The client is obviously learning from me in a lecture format. They're trying to follow the instructions, pull that information out. They're mapping that information out on the page. And then they're going into their session, right? So there's kind of this whole extraction process. One of the things that's really important, going back to this example of borderline, is that typically with borderline personality disorder, the person doesn't resonate with it, They don't feel like they do. They're in very, very deep denial and they think that everyone's just making it up. So what ends up happening with break method is the reason it works is you don't know from the client perspective why I'm asking something that I'm asking. And to you, the information feels safe. It's like, oh, well, your guard isn't up because it's not like, tell me about your relationship with your mother and how that affected you. Because then you'd be like, well, how are you going to use this? When I'm asking you certain information that doesn't feel like it's interconnected. So your guard's just down. You're like, sure, right? You're putting it on the page. Then when you get to arbitrarily, let's say you extracted the information that I needed on lesson two and three. And now by lesson five, I'm teaching you to go back and look at what you wrote down. This is where a borderline actually has this aha moment. I mean, this is true, but we call it the I'm the asshole moment where you're like, oh my God, I see it. I could never see it before, but I can see it now. Because you have to get a person to have their guard down, to pull these pieces out and then see how they all interconnect, going back to this sort of weaving effect. Then when you see the fabric, you're like, oh my God, I understand why people are saying this about me because I see it now. You can't see it when you're in it. So with borderline, by the time they get to the end, they've already now confronted, I get it. I'm not in denial anymore. I do this. I can see that I do this. Now I just want to stop doing this. because now it doesn't feel confronting and like a finger pointing. Like you have this, you know, you have this psychological disorder. We're very much like ironically anti-labels. I always remind people you can get a mental health diagnosis on paper and somebody could be exactly where you are in the brain pattern spectrum, literally like right next to you and not have a mental health diagnosis. So what actually is that? And obviously we go into that a lot in my work, but I try to remind people to whatever label they've been given prior to arrival, you have to let that go because then it serves more as a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I can show you your brain pattern is ultimately why you got this label. Let's put the label out to the side and let's work on mitigating and rewiring the things that are kicking off this label because that's not real, but these things are real, but these things can change. And if I can change you, if you went back to that same office, they'd be like, oh, you don't put the label on. So that's really the goal is to shed this label and methodically go through, pull these pieces, understand yourself and have a very radical paradigm shift paired with very specific individualized rewiring activities so that you are, through neuroplasticity, literally changing yourself. But you're changing yourself in such a way that I often find clients will tell me, like, I don't know when it happened. It just happened. It's like magic. Like all of a sudden, I'm not an asshole anymore. And I'm like, welcome back. Right? Because it really, it's like the whole hypothesis of break is that what you think you're seeing will be who you are and how you see the world and how you behave. So if I can change the way you're seeing the world fundamentally, you will become a different person no matter what. And I think that's where the mental health space has just got it completely backwards. They're trying to deal with behaviors at the level of behavior. And it's like, no, your behavior is so far downstream. Trying to deal that there makes no sense at all. If I see you as unsafe, my actions will always follow that. But if I can get myself to see Kelly's not unsafe, she's just a really strong, confident woman, and I have something to learn from her, then all of a sudden, I can be relaxed in myself around you. But if I read you and your dominant personality and your confidence as unsafe, I'm going to be nervous. I'm going to feel victimized by you, even if you do nothing except exist. Totally. So it's the power of perception, but you've really, in so many ways, routinized how to shift that because it's a nice idea to know that shifting perception is how you catalyze a reinvention of yourself, but to not know what the ingredients of that are, the associated practices or kind of where to enter. From the language. The language is the semantic. We're going to immediately define it. And as soon as we've defined it, that's where we've locked ourselves into a restricted loop. So that's why I use the example of safe. If I see you and my brain's like, I like Kelly. She makes me feel good about myself. My behavior is going to fall in line with that. But if I see Kelly and I'm intimidated by you and I feel like you're not going to like me, and as soon as I'm like, she's not going to like me, like thought bubble in my head, already I'm screwed. So if I don't learn how to adjust that thought and reorient the language, so I'm literally teaching myself to think and label things differently, then I don't have to use willpower to change my behavior. I've changed how I see you. Therefore, my warmth toward you will be natural. And with borderline and things like the cluster B personality disorders, again, I'm not saying that they're not easy. They are really challenging clients all the way up until the very end. But in the end, I have seen some of the most profound shifts from people with those disorders because once it's like, once that codex clicks in, they're really free, like truly, truly free. And that doesn't mean that they don't have to work at it more than maybe some other people do. And with my husband, as an example, he's on the far right side of the brain pattern spectrum and his brain looks for people to assign gluten to instead of looking to himself, right? So in any instance, it's naturally going to be oriented towards somebody else's fault. And she noticed, obviously, he did break when we first started dating. Thank God. So romantic. I'm like, hey, honey, if we're going to date. But truly, we talk about this all the time, and he's very involved in this work now. If he hadn't done that, there's a 0% chance he would have gotten married. There's probably a 0% chance that he would have dated past six months because he would have weaponized things on me and started to isolate away from me. And I naturally skew toward avoidant, disorganized attachment, if we're going to use those words. So if she pulled away too much, I would have been like, whatever, I'm fine without you. Right. Even though, of course, that's not true. Like he's really the first person in my life that I've broken a lot of my patterns with because I am very securely attached to him. And I can tell when my brain is telling me to pull away and I know how to go do the opposite. But using my husband as an example, he's done all this work and he's phenomenally changed his life he's an incredibly wildly different person but he'll now laugh at me in the kitchen be like my brain just tried to pick a fight with you i love you honey you're so autistic and i'm right because sometimes i'll just say something and he like wants to take that as i'm like trying to get at him and he now knows like when busy's just like in a rush she's just gonna be like how's that thing do with me right my brain's trying to pick a fight with her but busy's like kind of mildly autistic or she's just going to stop off some drinks and walk out the door and it's not personal. So I think that's freedom, right? Is when we can actually also learn who the other person is involved. So when people go through break, you learn about everyone's brain pattern type and all of a sudden you see the world totally differently. So you're like, oh my God. And now when you do this, I realized there was nothing to do with me. It's not personal. You're just X, Y, Z and you're focused on these things. And it literally is like teaching people how to speak each other's language and the amount of peace and understanding and empathy, even for people who made previously you would have thought were horrible, it rises up so intensely that you kind of walk around like mostly at peace all the time. And I've seen this happen for even people with cluster D disorders. And one other thing that I want to add, I'm saying that we're probably super out of time, but it is very common, especially in today's climate, with how much in the Instagram space, like all the carousels are just so there's no nuance there's no context it's like built just for everyone that feels victimized to be like yeah babe and it's like no no no i don't know if you can see this but everyone that's like hearting this post you guys are actually on the exact opposite of whatever this post is they're just basically they're like mob mentality mob it's like a mob mentality calling in everyone who feels victimized and they're basically just and you ride the wave of your victimhood instead of being like, but maybe. So in this world, I feel like so often in my work, I've had, in particular, women come to me and in their very first intake, they're like, oh my God, I'm, you know, I'm fresh, freshly separated or divorced. You know, I was married to a total toxic narcissist, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Like the whole thing. And in most of those cases, I say, hey, here's the deal. you do you boo I'm happy for you also just know there is a part when you go from module to the module three where you may want to have a different conversation with me and at that point just know I'm open to it they're like well what lecture I'm like I'm not telling you because if it happens naturally it's gonna happen and we're gonna talk about it and if it doesn't it doesn't and that's fine too almost every single time the tears oh my god I'm the narcissist and I'm like hi yeah The mirror is rough to look in. The mirror is rough. And I think that is why I brought up the Instagram thing. It is so sad to me how much kind of this like Instagram reductionist therapy culture is actually all the people that really could use some help in a shift in perspective to make their lives significantly less toxic. They need to be shown the exact opposite. Like, hey, do you think we even report of a toxicity? Right. instead of just like, yeah, babe, totally right on. Yeah, victim consciousness, such a powerful field of consciousness. Yeah, it's like a calling. That's why I always reference the heroine or hero's journey. It's a calling into the wild that invites you to take personal responsibility and develop the curiosity to understand your experience. and absent resources and very specific and personalized support like what you offer, it can be a harrowing journey. And then a lot of people fall into kind of an arbitrary grab, well, nothing's arbitrary, but a grab bag of like a little plant medicine, a little nutrition, a little talk therapy, some trauma-informed somatics. And I've found my way through with kind of an order of operations. And I think that what you offer has such an extraordinary place in my worldview. And you're such a kindred spirit and such a powerful ally. And I am so delighted, first of all, to have this connection, to know more about your offerings and your work and what you've been up to for over a decade, amassing thousands and thousands and thousands of these points of evidence to substantiate your perspective. This isn't just some impressionistic theory you came up with on a Saturday. And I wish I would have been lost. Less work to... I love that you use the word codex. It's very appropriately applied in this realm. And I love that I have the opportunity to put people on and to point them in the direction. So I will be sure to have all of the entry points because I imagine there is in your world an order of operations. You don't want to just click to the quick fix behavioral practices. It's not like that. I think for everybody, the Predictive Mind session that you did, I feel like it's always the best starter place because you have to know the what first and what you're willing to do about it. So I think with Predictive Mind, that's definitely the first place I would go digging. And then, as you know, in your episodes, it's going to be coming out on my podcast as well. I have my podcast decoded and I try to be the opposite of what a lot of the Instagram reductionist carousels and memes are and offer really deep insight into some of these patterns that are very prevalent in our society. There's a whole series that I did on power projection, obstruction, covert narcissism, what gaslighting really is and what toxic relationships are. So I encourage anyone that's listening, if the topics that we were talking about today resonate with you and you're kind of going to take a look on what could be on the other side. Those are also just good free teachings that you can jump into because I teach every single leap on the podcast. Amazing. Heading over myself. It's so, so, so delightful to be connected to you and to see this other version of myself. It's extraordinary that you escaped, that you didn't become a psychiatrist. That to me is like the... It's almost like you were saying there are sometimes two people next to each other in the map and one ends up with a diagnosis. It's almost like I ended up with a diagnosis. I sometimes joke like, I became a psychiatrist so that I could be on this side of the desk instead of that side. But there's just like the similitude and overlap is, it's really incredible. That is actually exactly true. Because where I am, mine is, I'm more reckless and chaotic than you are. You've got odds there. So my, ultimately, my dad would always tell me my whole life, you should be a therapist, you should be a therapist, you should be a therapist. But my dad was a lawyer. And my dad would always look at me also. them who like you'd be the best lawyer in the whole world but i don't i don't want you to do what i did so really i've always been part therapist part lawyer which i think ultimately is what i do with break method everything that we do with dismantling systems of language is approached like a lawyer really rather than a therapist so i think somehow i landed in both but because i'm just absolutely not able to i'm i just school is not i can't do it i did it i i and have good great grades, but the idea of going to sit through many more years of school, I don't think I can do it. And I'm slightly tuned right. Well, thank goodness you didn't waste your time. So it's so, so, so wonderful to chat with you. I really look forward to having you back on talking about very new and exciting topics so that we can please your novelty-seeking dimensions. And thank you. This is so generous and what a gift, like you're welcome people for this session. And I look forward to chatting with you again soon. Busy. Thanks. you