Rethinking Disease & Nutrition | Jen Martin Healing Compass

Welcome to the Plant-Free MD podcast with Dr. Anthony Chaffy, where we discuss diet and nutrition and how this affects health and chronic disease and show you how you can use this to optimize your health and happiness both mentally and physically. Hello everyone. Thank you very much for joining me for another episode of the PlantFree MD podcast. I'm your host Dr. Anthony Chaffy and today I have a very special return guest, Jen, who is the author of the Healing Compass book series who's out with a new book in that series. Uh if you haven't seen our first interview, uh please do check that out as well. Jen, thank you so much for coming back on. >> Thank you for having me on. >> Very welcome. So, um, okay. So, we had you on, um, a couple months ago and, um, and which I thought was was very, very interesting, your insights in in your new book. And so, please give us the updates on what's been happening since and and about your new book. The first book, as I talked about with you before, is essentially the nuts and bolts of three frameworks and the nutritional uh approach to the optimal um diet for reset is how I framed it. Um and the three frameworks were areas that I was very very interested in and kept seeing overlaps and wanted to put a book together. Never done it before in my life and thought, "Oh well, let's go for it." Anyway, so I've got that book out and then um I kind of was always fascinated by seeing um certainly the enog in motion. So the enagram in motion essentially is just people watching is it everyone lots of people do it. They enjoy doing it and so but I was doing it with looking and watching people interact and how they behaved and seeing patterns and make and and connections. And so, um, Ian, my husband was on with with me last time. He's my enagram source. He's very, very knowledgeable on it. And so, we do it together and it's it's a lot of fun. So, I'm learning how to do this. And then that's where this book came kind of to life really. I wanted to keep the idea of the same frameworks and the diet all in one book, but I wanted to bring it alive. So, it's it's got um nine characters going to a relational kind of support group, a support group for some kind of relational issue. And each of the nine characters is a different personality type. And then we've got two facilitators that pretty much put them into different scenarios. And as an example, um, with the anagram part to this, we've got three feeling types, three cognitive types, and three instinctual types. They all operate in the world in slightly different ways. So I got the facilitators to put out a a a problem, a community project kind of the problem and put them in their feeling type, instinctual and cardinal group and how they all came together to find what was the most important thing to do was interesting because it was based on their particular viewpoint. Then I mixed it up and then you see a different viewpoint. Why is this relevant? Well, how many times do we find ourselves in groups of people and you're going, "You don't get it. Why can't I be understood? I don't know." And it I think it it helps to put a frame onto a you see the world a little differently. Maybe I will just listen a little harder to to see if we can find a common language. You know, it there's just different ways to navigate. the gender part to it is also you know I bring in a um a guest speaker to talk about how that's relevant in relationship stuff and then the German new medicine part so they all link the idea is that people run stress if you didn't have stress you'd be apathetic and you'd probably not make it you need stress to stay motivated but it has to be balanced and if you understand where your stress is coming from and understand is this helping me or is this causing me harm or what's going on? How what's my what's my personality type? Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, I do anxiety like a champ. I'm just doing that thing again. I need to put that into perspective. And then I have a particular situation and then it lands in my body. So then we're looking at German new medicine which brings me to um a story. Well, obviously it's a big thank you to you. I was listening to um a conversation that you were having with Dr. Ken Bry. Um I don't know if it was a recent one or an old one. I didn't check, but it was um it >> was recent. >> I was just Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, it would have been a recent one then because I was I hadn't heard you say this before and I've heard a lot of what you've said. >> And about halfway through there was a the conversation started on about MTHFR. There was you I think Dr. Dr. Barry started talking about um supplements and supplementation and then you started to talk about um the what happens with when people have MTHFR and the not being able to absorb B vitamins and that you're going along that I went oh my goodness this this this is landing because the carnivore diet has helped me like I can't even tell you but there was a couple of things that I just could not get on top of. >> My energy increased and then stopped. It It wasn't great. I did have fatigue. I had weakness. I had heart palpitations on exertion, you know, things like that. But I've I also had um was tested for MTHFR years ago. I can't remember exactly which one I have. Heterrozygus maybe, don't know, one of them. >> And I realized that well, hang on a minute. maybe I should look into this a little further. So, I got Ian, who's a kinesiologist, to muscle test me because he could muscle test for um deficiencies and excesses in the body. And it turns out I had no um almost no B vitamins in my system whatsoever. >> And it just so happened that I had a a box of um the activated B12. And so he tested with that and it I tested up strong which meant yes you need this. >> So I started to take it um and he tested how many to take and so I I was having quite a high dose for a couple of days and it reduced and it reduced and now I'm back on to the normal dose. So over the course of a few days I started to think wow what a difference. It literally blew me away and then my knee started hurting like a lot. I could hardly walk on it and I'm like, "What? What's that?" So, I didn't injure it. And then I'm like, "Okay, German new medicine. What's that all about?" So, we live off grid. We've got stuff to do all the time. Ian works harder than I've ever seen anyone work in my life. And he's going all day long. And I'm sitting here fatigued, struggling to walk up the stairs some days going, "This is insane. I felt so held back. I couldn't take a step forward." See where I'm going with this? So then all of a sudden, I'm like, "Oh my god, I've got energy and I'm able to do things. I can now move forward." And so my knee went into resolution. So it hurt. It hurt for a few days and then it went away and then it's been perfectly fine ever since. >> So yeah, that's that's where the the German medicine really lands. You go, "Oh, right. I didn't have to go rushing off to a doctor to have it checked or and it was really sore." >> Um it was my a a ligament that joins to my patella. I'm not sure which one that is, but it it was that ligament and man, it hurt. But that when I understood it and put it into context and yeah, it made such a difference. >> Yeah. >> So, thanks for that. >> Well, you're very welcome. And um well, that and that's the thing, too, is that um you you don't necessarily cover um all of your your needs. Um if you're um if you have MTHF4 or you have a malabsorption issue or something like that, that can that can change things. then well your B vitamins can improve because you're you're getting so many of them especially things like B12 and etc uh which only exists in in meat then you're of course you're going to improve but maybe you're not improving to the point that that it's going to get you to optimal health if you have them and I I have patients with with malabsorption issues I've diagnosed I think it's I think we just got another one the other week so like three four maybe up to five people with pernicious anemia now which is an autoimmune condition that destroys your body's ability to absorb B12 at all there are gradations of that. So you can you can lose significant amounts of of absorption >> and then finally you can't absorb anything. So I think these people were on their way to that. But um either way significantly reduced their their ability to absorb B12 and that's important to know. You know you're just eating red meat and you're having liver >> if if you don't have enough uh B12 like there's there's some sort of malabsorption issue. And so, >> well, I actually looked because you did talk about the prinist anemia and I started wondering about that and I hadn't heard of it and >> you know I've researched lots of stuff and I'd never really come across it and I started wondering about that and >> I think denial stopped me. I thought you know what I've heard of MTHFR. I know I've tested positive for that. I'll stick with that. I'll go with this and see how it is. I don't really know if I want to know if it goes any further than that. But the fact that I that I I was I couldn't they didn't test up for any B any B vitamins in my body um was a bit of a concern like whoa. Okay. Anyway, >> no. Yeah. And and um you know that's sort of one of one of the times that organs can be really helpful. I mean I don't think that everybody needs organs all the time, but you know if you have MTHFR or something like that and you're not getting uh the the full utility out of the B vitamins that you're getting from just meat, then then organs can be a great idea. And they and they are multivitamin. You know, sort of nature's multivitamin as well is the organs, which are which are great when you need them, but too much can be too much. But for instance, uh you know, my my partner L uh we've been eating basically the same things for for the last, you know, three plus years together. We've had almost every meal together in those in that time. And my B12 is nearly a,000 puma moles per liter and hers was in the 400s, right? So it's like less than half of what mine was. And so we tested her and she had MTH MTHFR. So um you know and she's happy for me to speak about this and everything like that but um she uh you know and and you know not necessarily having any health issues but you know that that's lower to the point that but we want to make sure that she has enough and so um the idea was to start adding in liver and she does not like liver she don't doesn't want want to eat liver okay fine so we do the methylated B vitamins as as um as a as a replacement for that. But, you know, it's it's important. It is important to sort of check that and just make sure your levels are fine. And if you're doing carnivore and and all their levels are coming up, great. And if they get up to that optimal level, well, then you're fine. And if they're not and and you need to add in organs and that gets you up, okay, that's perfect. Then that's >> that's your requirement and that's how you stay optimal. And then if you add in the organs and you're not getting up there and you're just your body's just okay well then there's some sort of malabsorption issue and then you have to think about the pericious anemia sort of thing which is a bit difficult to test. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's what I was just about to ask you on that one. Um so if uh if MTHFR causes an absorption issue how does adding um all the vitamins from liver get absorbed more? Is it the volume that's in the liver, >> the volume of of vitamins in it or? >> Yeah. Well, the MTHFR is more of it's more of a um a different way of your body metabolizes B vitamins. So, it doesn't it doesn't get it into its active methylated form. And so, you you'll still absorb it. It's just it won't get it won't get utilized properly. And so, you just yeah, you'll just need more of it. And so, you have a sort of an inefficiency in in utilizing those B vitamins. So you just need more of them. But yes, you can um increase absorption by increasing the volume of nutrients as well. And so if you had some sort of malabsorption issue, if it was not if it was not complete, then you could increase the amount. And certainly the amount um during the day, because if you're only going to absorb X amount in one in one sitting, then you know increasing from there isn't necessarily going to improve that. But if you have certain receptors and you have a higher volume of of nutrients or something that's going to work on that receptor, then that can that can increase um uh the the absorption, right? Um but you could also eat, you know, sort of more than just once a day and you sort of would would get that as well, get more absorption. But >> right >> um if you have if you have a very serious malabsorption issue where you you just body's just not really absorbing this stuff pretty much at all like with eventually pernicious anemia will become complete where you you completely damage well traditionally completely damage it but it's an autoimmune condition and autoimmune conditions are I think at the at their baseline their base root cause is um from toxic exposure typically from plant toxins but also from glyphosate and other sorts of things like that potentially And so eventually if people keep doing the same things then that damage continues until it's complete and they have no ability to absorb it because you don't make something called intrinsic factor and your your parietal cells in your stomach make something called intrinsic factor and when that's secreted that binds to B12 and then your body absorbs B12 and intrinsic factor together. You can't absorb B12 on its own. has to have intrinsic factor. And there are some supplements I've seen them on online that say they come with intrinsic factor, which is interesting because I was sort of thinking that I was like, well, why why are we fussing around? If you if people don't make intrinsic factor, then obviously you should be able to just add intrinsic factor and at least some of these things said they had it. I don't know how you know if that's true, but how well that works. But you can actually get antibodies towards intrinsic factor as well. You know, that's part of it as well. So you can have parietal cell antibodies, you can have intrinsic factor antibodies. So it could be that that um you know that that's not helpful either. But um you know but once once you get complete destruction of your parietal cells and you don't make intrinsic factor, then you're just from normal dietary sources, you're really just not going to absorb B12. And and so eventually that that's that's fatal because you need B12 or you die. uh but it it can take years and years and years before that it gets to the point of criticality >> and um and so before that you know you would want to take like sublingual B12 or uh injections obviously you just need another way of getting it in your body. >> I do the sublingual I think that's why one of the reasons it works so well. Yeah, >> it is. It's very interesting and it was really good to to highlight again. But the with the autoimmune there's such a a varied >> number of them. There's so many different ways that things can affect the body in different people. And that's again, you know, I just get curious about that. Well, why did this person get this and this person get that when they're having a similar experience? >> You know, why did the body land in why did the cancer land in this area and not that area? and things like that. And that's where um again the the the whole framework thing it comes in from your viewpoint of the world. the the things that cause you stress and cause you a you know biological conflict shock a a a thing that happens that sets off an adaptation in a particular body part part of your body in order to um strengthen or um in in reinforce a particular part of the body until it's no longer needed and it breaks back down again and you know happy days. So all of the things all of the conditions and um you know I listen to quite a lot of the particularly Melissa cell her information is terrific but I don't necessarily agree with all of it because I still feel like there are elements missing that like you said diet with German new medicine there are there are a lot of people who say that diet's not that important. It's your it's your connection, relationship, your how you how you view it, you know. If if you have a viewpoint that um onions are going to kill you, well then onions will make you sick, you know, that kind of thing. >> Yeah. But I mean, yeah, I mean, >> you can try that mindset eating sewage and see how far it gets you. >> Yeah. Look, that's a very good point because the fact of the matter is and and this is has been my point in this all along going well the body actually requires uh resources. It it's pretty simple. >> If the body doesn't have the resources to to do what it needs to do, it's going to create a priority system. and the priority system is going to be uh survive to start with and then we'll work it out from there. But if the body is only being fed with its absolute nutritional requirements and you've got everything that you need, well then every biological conflict shock because I still see the the relevance and the pattern in that um but the body then you've got a clearer mind, more awareness and therefore you go, "Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense." the adaptation goes back to factory settings faster and you not don't even necessarily have symptoms. >> Which brings me to my next story and this is a this is a funny one. It only came up >> um my husband and I were talking >> the other day because we've got like a gazillion chickens and um they were being noisy. We've got little little roosters coming up and they all sound hilarious. >> Mhm. while they're learning to crow, you know. And it reminded us of a few years ago um before I really understood this. I was starting to get into it, but I didn't really understand it properly. So, we had this rooster. In fact, we had three roosters and there were three big light sausage roosters and we um and we brought them in because we needed a new little situation for our hens and we didn't think too much of it. They were young, they got along, they were everything was fine until they were older and they didn't. >> And and so we ended up having this situation where we had three really big roosters. One was really loud and dominant. One was a cross. He was a um light Sussex cross. And the other one was a pure breed, but he was the one that was um on the bottom of that particular pecking order. And um they were all between the the lot of them, they were really hard on the hens. It was it was not pretty. And so we're like, "Okay, we've got to get rid of two roosters >> because, you know, this is getting ridiculous." So we had um had to decide which one. What would we take the dominant big one or the one that was actually the least um competitive of the lot? Now the other the other appeal for the younger one was that he had started to lose his voice. Also kind of hilarious but you know also you got to look at it and go oh what's going on there man? You know he tried to crow and it would just as if he had laryngitis you know nothing. I'm like I'm thinking well he's nice and gentle and he's not he doesn't have a voice at the moment so let's keep him. So anyway, rooster for tea and then we were we we had just the one guy and he was great for about moving through a week. Um he started off with almost no voice. the other two were gone and then after about two or three days he started to get a voice back and then he by the end of the week he his voice was back and then um it went away again and I'm like dude what what is going on so I started to think about it so the um with the bron uh bron bronchi one part of the lungs it's the bronchioli I Um the specific conflict with that is a territorial conflict because um at at then after that kind of week two week period um he also started to get a bit of a sneeze and he was coughing a bit and you know he he really he just looked like a bird with a bit of a cold actually but he he was doing all right but he just thought but that was what was going on and I I realized that he had resolved a territorial conflict >> and he was it took a while for him to to actually find his place because he was not the dominant one. He was the beta rooster and so all of a sudden he didn't have any competition and he had to try and establish his territory and he had to go through all of that and so the resolution was the repair phase which is where the symptoms came up and then I went in had a little chat with him. I didn't know a lot of this at the time, but I was saying to him, "Come on, man. You've got this." I was just guessing really. >> And we were we were we were friends. He actually came around. He was fine. It all it all went away. And nobody else got sick. There was no germs being spread anywhere. It wasn't like that. And it made perfect sense with the timing. >> So, you know, this this gets to be applied across biology. As uh Melissa says, Miss Melissa Cell says, it's um bioological. >> There is a logic to the biology >> and it can you can see it in animals too. That's just that story came up just recently and I just thought, "Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a funny one." It just >> Yeah. Well, you see that in um dominance hierarchies and other animals as well. They they they look at if you look at chimpanzees, they look at uh testosterone levels. You have the big alpha and they're more muscular and they're bigger and and they're more aggressive and things like that. And they say, "Okay, well, is this because they have more testosterone naturally and that's what makes them a natural alpha." Um well, they have, you know, four or five times the amount of testosterone as as the betas and and omegas and things like that. And um and so they're saying like, okay, well, what if we take a whole bunch of betas that have the same testosterone level and so it's not like a natural alpha or something like that. Um and then put those together and just see what happens. And so they did. They took I think it was like five uh beta chimps with the same or similar testosterone levels. And now there's there's going to be a dominance um uh sort of fight and and people are going to sort that out. And the chimp that ended up asserting dominance and becoming the alpha in that group um he started you know acting differently as well within days within just days and he started acting very differently. They tested his testosterone again it had it was like five times higher than it was before. So it wasn't that his testosterone made him the alpha. becoming the alpha gave him that testosterone and and and you know so that's what I was I was thinking was you know same thing with with that rooster he was the beta he was a lower one but now he's alpha okay there's going to be physiological changes um as well as that u you know you know situational changes and social changes as well as that >> and you know we we see that physiologically in humans as well you know someone that is more you know more timid and this it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. They they become more like that and they and they become less assertive and and that can change their physiology as well and then they say, "Okay, well, I'm just going to put myself out there. I'm going to start playing sports. I'm going to start being more assertive." um you can actually influence your own physiology and uh then I don't know if this has ever been studied but if it's the same if it holds the same with the gyms presumably your own hormonal um physiology and expression as well >> well that does change based on behavior I mean John Gray does a lot of work on that around in um within relationships >> and you know gender roles are like traditional gender roles are particular gender roles for a reason. You know, they they actually bring out the best in men and the best in women. And so hormonal changes can be influenced by, you know, a dominant woman um chastising her man enough and he starts to feel degraded. So, he has a um a self uh devaluation thing going on and and you know, often that causes body problems. So you're looking at the muscles and the bones and the tissues and the ligaments and they they start to ulcerate with when people feel that. So it's not it it is also the lowering of testosterone. But what that also does contrary to some people's belief is low testosterone in men um the bal it's the balance with estrogen. So their estrogen is too high which is that that's what causes anger. It's not high testosterone causing anger. It's the the imbalance between the estrogen and the testosterone, which is what he found. And in reverse with women, they they end up um their behavior changes if if they end up in a masculine type role and don't get any relief in connection and uh kind of bonding or self-care type activities. So these things definitely have uh an effect. There's no doubt. And you you change your behavior and you change your hormone balance. So if you get your balance right for your gender, then your stress levels go down. And when your stress levels go down, this has the knock-on effect of everything else working better. But it also has the effect of a a resolution. So if you're going through a stressful period, suddenly make a decision on right, I'm going to do better. I'm sick of this, right? You've have a mind shift change and then you're resolving all of that. So you know my situation, I am so sick of these menopausal symptoms are doing my head in. So I'm going to I'm going to give this a go. Well, I did and but I did also have symptoms of um and and you know you call it keto flu if you like. You can call it whatever you like, but the symptoms that come up are different for everybody. Why would that be? They can be similar in a lot of ways, but as in digestive issues, um there are certain things that are hard to digest and that's metaphoric stuff like words, things, all that stuff, right? the the metaphor of um hard to swallow, difficult to digest is relevant. But in order to make a stick and resolve something by um so menopausal symptoms in my case, I'm so over this. This is this is really annoying. Um I'm it's also screaming at me, you're getting older, you're getting older. And that's not that's kind of hard to digest sometimes, you know. So to move into the carnivore um diet and to start eating for my body health and start losing weight, feeling better, all these things. Yeah, my digestive system's going to have fun with that, you know. So there are many many layers and I don't and I think some of them are too exclusive in their presentation. I think there are so many overlaps that there's more to consider. So, how we understand things? We understand things with the load of information that we've got. But what if there's some a little bit more over here that also adds to the story? It doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bath water. You just start including the other things, which is kind of where I went with with the book. And that's only three of the many kind of ideas and thoughts about how how things affect us in the world. The next one next book, I've only just started to think about it, but it's going to be an even deeper dive. And oh, where these two are a lot of fun to write, this one's a lot trickier. It's a coupled one, so it's a relationship book >> and I'm I'm having to learn a new modality. So, >> okay. So, so um well, maybe maybe tell us a bit about that. What are you thinking about for the for the third book? Um so the enagram stuff is is very very useful in relationships all sorts of relationships whether it's your doctor patient relationship or your romantic partner if you understand how they operate you have a higher tolerance and you have a better understanding that you know the this particular type isn't being aggressive they're just being a whatever this is how they how they communicate and things like that. So, I thought, "Oh, well, all right. Let's I'll uh I'll put that together in the book." But I wanted it to be a little bit different. And I also wanted them to have problems because so far I've mostly been talking about um this is just who we are and this is how we operate and it's very easy. It's a very very easy read. But we all know that we have challenges, we have struggles and they don't always come out very nicely. They can be you can have a lot of problems within your world and the viewpoint or the personality type will kind of put a a spotlight on why that particular behavior or condition or whatever. So I needed to be able to help them. And I've I have worked with couples in the past in counseling and stuff but haven't really particularly gone with any modality specifically like that. So, I had to find one that worked with all of this and I um I came across uh John and Julie Gottman for one. >> Um they Have you heard of those two? >> I have. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're they're really good. He's he's so data heavy. They're both cognitive. So, it's really funny listening to them talking around the feeling space. It's very practical. >> Um Then the other one was uh Terry Reel. He's also got some good stuff and it wasn't quite right. But then I came across Sue Johnson. Now Sue Johnson um she has her and another guy who can never get the name of him off the top of my head is a uh emotionally focused therapy. And with emotionally focused therapy there is a it's not exact it's not a go to counseling and learn a tool. it's go to counseling and um find better understanding. And that seems to be it seems to be very consistent with the theme of of my books is that it's to find a a better understanding of what what's running the show. How can how can I get a handle on my anxiety? How can I get a handle on my stress? How can I do better where I'm not feeling all this discomfort or distress or whatever? So the um yeah, the emotionally focused therapy is very um applicable to across the board. It's not type specific. Um, which some of them are, some of them are very because there's a lot of feeling type people who are so good at emotion and not necessarily emotional expression, but they understand that at at a deeper level and they'll come up with something and they'll this is how it's going to work. This will work really well for everyone except the cognitive because the cognitive are going to struggle with the connection with the feeling. Instinctuals will do better because they have a body sense. It's still not in their head. So yeah, but that's basically what it was. And so I've I've um I've only just started it and I'm going to have them go on a couple's retreat >> that's going to be a three-day weekend uh four different times. So they'll eat, they'll come, do three days, go home, then they'll have to come back and report the week, do another three days, go home, and etc. >> Yeah. So yeah, I funnily enough, I keep putting that one off, but that's the plan. >> So So very story driven. So you're giving these these um examples and lessons through through a story forum. >> Well, yeah. Um again, it can't appeal to everyone. There are certain people text and data. Don't don't mess me up with people. And then there's a lot of people who can um get the get a better idea of what's going on when they can relate to a character and story comes alive and you know you get to follow the characters along the way and then you know in in this this book I have the characters go through the group and it's over I don't even know how many weeks uh 10 weeks I think and then there's a two two month break and they come back and report how they're going and you know there's There's a lot in there. Some people found it easy. Some people found it hard. There was problems with this. There was problems with that. But the idea was to not go into a deep dive. It wasn't about, you know, trying to drown people in in information. It was just, hey, look, there's there's a whole other way of looking at things. Um, and I think it could be here >> and here's some doors. You know, German medicine is fascinating. I don't There's a lot in in uh German new medicine for example constellations the way they explain it. I'm not even going to bother trying to explain it because I can't. But it's got to do with mental health. So the you know the outcome is a mental health diagnosis. Um German new medicine can put its bin on that um or not that's a bit rude. German new medicine could can have a has an understanding on that where um certain things that happen at the same time the body then adapts by changing its behavior where I look at it and go oh you're just talking about a five or nope that's a four or whatever personality type seven whatever there are certain types that are really obvious and you think their personality type. So which is it chicken or the egg? Did the personality type determine the behavior or did the behavior come up and then that was the personality type? Don't know. Always asking, always questioning, figuring it out. Don't know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And and that raises an interesting question as well. the same thing with the, you know, the the dominance hierarchy, um, you know, being fleshed out in the animals and what is there is there a natural alpha or does becoming an alpha change your physiology and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and does that how does that um affect your your behavior and your personality as well? I'm sure it's all interconnected in very very complex ways. Um, but you know, understanding that something is is is often enough for practical purposes as opposed to where do we get how do we get here in the first place? Like, well, we're here now and um, you know, we can sort of deal with that, too. But I'm I'm I'm sure that there are I mean you look at people you know coming through adolescence and maybe they're you know a bit of a shy violet or they're in their shell and they come out of their shell you know there's some sort of personality change um because sometimes something happened and um I remember you know my my brother and I used to um you know squabble like all all all kids do and especially brothers and he was he was bigger than me he was older than me and so you know that three years um it equals a lot of size difference and and you you've grown into your body more. Your nervous system works better, you're more coordinated, you're quicker, you're more explosive, you're stronger. Um even negating the size differences, you know, you're just your nervous system works better for your the size of your body. And you know, so he was he could, you know, handle me pretty easily the whole time. Um, and you know, and certainly there there was, you know, bullying aspects and maybe I'm going too far sometimes. You know, we would get in squables and then and then one day I just said, "Yeah, that's it. I've had enough of this." And and I was sort of, you know, pretty shy and timid and but I played sports and I really enjoyed them, but I never I never and I and I worked really hard at them and I was naturally athletic. Uh, but I never had that that killer instinct that I just I was just going to go for, you know, a win. no just come hell or high water like I was I was you know I was going to win or I was going to die first you I mean that was just I didn't have that mentality yet and um and but you know I'd been you know training to fight and wrestling and things like that for years then one day you know my my brother was just messing with me and he just went too far and I'm like why am I putting up with this you know like I've been I've been training with and fighting with with some of the best fighters on this earth you know like there's this this guy doesn't have anything on me and we end up getting into a fight and I I ended up winning and um and all these emotions came out. It was just years of you know pent up you know anger and and emotion things like that and it just just completely changed completely changed everything and I had a completely different outlook on life. I came out of my shell whatever the hell that means and my personality was different and my my view towards the world was different and I started excelling in in sports. I was already good at them. Um, but now I had that that mindset that you need to to succeed in any sort of uh contact collision sport like rugby or fighting and uh and then all of a sudden I had it and I was I was an all-American that next year and um in rugby >> and um and then went went on from there and I remember I remember talking to my brother because he was very dominant you know he was you know and and he was dominant in our relationship but then in other aspects of his life as well and you know you know he still is very successful person um both sports and academically and and um professionally. But I remember talking to him years later and he sort of you remember that fight we had when we were you know teenagers and I was just like I was like yeah I was like that sort of changed my life you really sort of pivot and he said like >> yeah it changed my life too but not not not in the good way that you're talking about you know so for him now he was now he was sort of questioning himself like hey wait hold on I'm not I can't just do anything I want and and I'm not the most dominant person that actually changed him a bit too and And maybe in a good way, maybe it tempered him saying, "Okay, I need to I need to look at these things in a different way." But it's but just like those one little little moments in your life can can absolutely change things and change my personality dramatically. >> Well, I have a question for you and I've got something to say about that as well in a sec. Um, after that happened with your brother. >> Mhm. Now, it's a while ago and you may not remember, but do you remember having an injury soon after that? Not necessarily caused by that, but soon after that. >> Um, uh, I did, um, you know, in rugby, I broke my nose later on. Um, and it was funny too because he had hit me like on that side of the nose and um, and then like in I I was at school or something like that. I remember like going around turning a corner too quick and like just smacking my face into a door. Oh, I hit that same side. And then like a week or two later um, was in a rugby game and someone you know just cheap shot and it just smashed my nose. End up breaking my nose. And um I remember it was just sort of like I was like if if like maybe those other two hadn't been there and and weakened it up, it wouldn't have sort of broken. But >> um but uh yeah, yeah, there a few weeks later end up breaking my nose. >> Well, I mean that is probably a little bit more. >> Yeah, that's probably you can fairly confidently apply that to a smack in the head, you know, a smack in the face to to to cause that. I mean obviously Germany medicine can't account for all of those things but the reason why I was asking is because of you know there could have been a bit of an understanding around um if you are feeling less then for a period of time and then you go you know what stop it and you resolve that well then that's when the body starts to rebuild and because it it weakens as it's um as it's being devalued this is this is like your You're kind of what we were talking about with the monkeys and stuff, but it the analogies with wolves that in the wolf pack, the wolf, the beta wolf goes to try and be the alpha and he gets bitten down and he's going, "Oh crap." And he's not feeling too good about himself and his muscles start to ulcerate to the degree that he can still operate, but if it gets to the point where he can't contribute within the pack, it continues to happen and he dies because he's no good in the pack. >> And that's the biological purpose of that happening. So when you resolve it and you suddenly feel strong again, then it's like the uh the old when you break a bone and it repairs it's the strongest bone in your body. That kind of thing with with any of the muscle damage or repair with ligaments and bones and whatever in the body, it comes back stronger after self-devaluation. But when you were saying about um how your personality completely changed after that, the thing about um the personality type is that what I understand and how I believe it to be is that it you're born with it, right? You're born with your personality type, >> but it activates it. It is it's your survival system, the survival mechanism, and it only gets employed if you need it. So for people who have incredibly attentive parents and their needs are met, they get to push boundaries safely. All these things, everything is perfect. Well, their survival mechanism doesn't need to go. It doesn't need to do anything. But then you go to the opposite side of that and you have a kid who has a really hard time and their survival act um system activate, you're going to see a lot more of the characteristics, you know. So for a three, for example, um they're known as the achiever. The three um usually their biggest competitor is themselves. They they need to do better than they did the last time. Um they're very productive, very, you know, all these things. They're great. That that's super. You can have all of that, but for somebody who wasn't at three, who didn't have a wholesome life as a child, their their um drive for success could become incredibly unhealthy. >> Do you see what I mean? >> Mhm. >> So there there's there's a spectrum and it the spectrum it's not a um okay, so you're a this and this is your box and you have to stay in that and this is how you operate. It's like well your life experience has a huge effect on how you express the parts of your personality type but your personality is your personality >> and it does shift like you said you had an you had a situation and you activated another part of it. So you would have moved closer to your security point and you would have felt better about yourself which would have activated other st other other um characteristics. So it you're absolutely bang on because that's what happens in teenage life isn't it? You get exposed to new things and you have to do new things in order to survive them. >> Yeah. And and yeah to your point I mean I I don't think I changed as a person. It's just I became more confident in myself and I I you know and I I wasn't you always doubting myself and and things like that. Not that I I had much of that but you know I knew I was very capable but um you know >> it at that point I was I you know I just was much more self assured and um and and I felt like you know no I can no this is this is something I can do. I I'm absolutely capable of of, you know, winning any physical uh interaction that I have on the rugby field or in in the ring and things like that. And um you know, I'm going to push myself harder. I'm going to train bit harder. I'm going to be better than everybody else. And then being more confident and assertive, you know, in the rest of my life as well. But it didn't change who I was. It just let me allowed me to express that more fully. >> That's right. And the the range is there to to be that to be as expressive >> or to be as whatever. I mean, if if life beats you up and you've got another strategy in there each type has it's a it's an unhealthy place and it's what they do to protect themselves from the world and that looks like something else completely. So, you know, two people of the same personality type with two very different looking expressions of that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And that's what makes it fun. >> And it's it's not really as complicated as it sounds because one of the um one of the indicating elements of personality typing that never gets talked about that I've seen on online is um the structure of somebody's face, their their body shape, um where and how they carry weight, you know, various different features and things like that. So there that's a a clue. It's not a diagnosis by any means, but it's a clue. You can look I can look at lots of different people. Ian's better at it than I am, but I can still do do it to a fair degree. >> See someone and go, they're a feeling type and they're this type. And then it's like, right, so it my friend my I've got a very good friend and she's a a four and we've been friends for about nearly 20 years now and she she'll call me up when she has a bit of trouble with something going on in her life. um looking for some kind of sense to rationalize her her feelings and her personality type has a tendency to get a little bit big in uh drama. So she can be quite dramatic and can't see straight, make decisions in that dramatic state that kind of have a big effect. And um yeah, so she's learned to to call me and go uh Jen. And that helps her to balance. But I know her type. I know I know what she's going to do and I know what's going to help. So you know these things come in this this particular knowledge comes in very very handy. >> So yeah. >> Yeah. Well, it it and and especially for, you know, like we were talking about um before we came on, you know, just just knowing about as a clinician, you you know the personality types of your patients. You can communicate with them better. You can you can give them you relay the same information to them that that you feel will help and affect change in their life in a way that is actually going to uh resonate with them and so that they can take that and use that. uh and you're telling them the same thing, but you're just telling them in a different way and so that they can better utilize that information in relationships. I I you know couldn't imagine how useful that would be. I mean it just be it's just insanely good to be able to communicate properly. >> You think that's right. I mean you think about it. You have people out there who who love to have an authority tell them right here take this do that and you'll be fine. And then you have others who question every part of an authority and going I do not trust you. You have to earn my trust. And it's the type. And when you know when you've got this one type coming in, you know that it's not going to be a difficult um consultation. You're going to just say, "I can see what's going on. I know you're going to trust me because I'm the doctor." And uh that's going to be pretty easy. And then you have another type come in and you're going, "This one will probably need a little bit more time and data. I I'll just make sure I have enough pamphlets for this particular client or patient." And that should help move things along. So yeah, >> probably help streamline some things, I suppose. >> Yeah, definitely. And yeah, I mean, and 95% of what doctors do is communication and and you're you're communicating a plan and a diagnosis to people or you're having to communicate with them to get information so that you can come up with a diagnosis and then a plan. And if you don't have those interpersonal skills and those communication skills, you're not going to be very good at your job. And um that that's really all there is to it. So if you can't get that the correct information from people properly, you can't communicate with them properly, it's not going to work. And if you then can't communicate that plan back to them, that's not going to work either. Compliance is a big thing. And when you when you just dictate and say this is the plan, that's what you're going to do. Um not actually all that many people follow because they're like not buying that. >> There are certain types will. >> Yeah. Some some will. Yep. and the rest of them that doesn't feel right or no way. >> Yeah. Well, but it's it's less likely. It's less likely that they'll follow that if they're not bought into it. And so what we were taught in medical school was that if you come up with a plan together, you talk about this and it's it's a bit sneaky because >> basically you you bring them around to what you want and you sort of manipulate the conversation to go in that direction where they come to the conclusion to do exactly what you want them to do. And I don't really like that. I like actually giving people information like the whole range of information and then letting them decide what they want to do. And I obviously make my recommendations and I tell them why I make those recommendations, but at the end of the day, it's their life and um you know, they've they've got to live with the decision what, you know, whether whether I'm right or wrong, they're the ones who have to live with the consequences. uh or another doctor if I if I disagree with a diagnosis and I you know if someone's someone has has reversed their diabetes put their MS into remission lost 60 kilos um and uh and all these different sort of things get better and all their biomarkers improve and then their LDL is a bit up and they go oh and their other doctors like you got to stop this immediately go back to being diabetic and and dying of MS um and I say well I would I would disagree with that you know and and here's why you know And um but at the end of the day, it's it's they've got to be the ones that that make that decision. And so if you if you come up with a plan together in that sense, then people are much more likely to actually follow through with the plan. >> I think you're right. Um in in the larger sense, you know, I think you'll capture quite a lot of different types in that particular approach, but I'll I'll throw a little spanner in your work, >> you know, to sit down and talk about options. And so, let's just say you're talking to me and you're telling me about all the stuff that's going on with me and you're giving me options of um things I can do about that. Well, the thing is I'm I'm in a stress state because I'm sitting in your office. >> Mhm. >> So, my anxiety is high because I do that anyway. And then you're giving me options. Oh my god, you've got to be kidding me. So, for me, that would be that would be tough. You're going, "Well, you can do this or you can do that." What do you mean? How am I >> There's a different way you put it, though. >> You can say, "Well, you could do these things." Like, okay, you have diabetes and what we could do is you could go down the traditional route and you could go on metformin and then that your blood sugar will continue to get worse and so we'll increase the metformin. Um, looks like Hold on. I think it froze there. Um, we're back. Can you hear me? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. Sorry, it's froze on my end. Um, okay. So, you have diabetes and we're going to put you on metformin and then we're probably going to have to increase the metformin and um you know then you know that's going to continue to get worse and then you're going to have to go on this other medication. Then you're going to have to go on another medication. Eventually you're going to have to go on insulin and um and then you're going to start getting the consequences of hypoglycemia which you're going to get kidney failure. You can go blind. You might get amputations. you know, it's going to increase your risk of cardiovascular disease by,00%. And and go along these lines and you're statistically you're going to live 10 to 15 years shorter and and you're going to have all those consequences, all that. Or you can stop eating carbohydrates and never have any of those problems and not go on meds. >> What do you want to do? >> Yeah. Okay. So, all right. Faced with that particular option, fine. You win. >> Yeah. Um so again there's ways there's ways and ways but um no I I do I do tell tell them what I think is the is the best approach and say look if this was me this is what I do and in fact this is what I do and that's why I do it and um and so and and I tell them and I and I tell them why but you know it's um but I want I want people to know why they're doing things and understand why they're doing things and I don't like you know I I I mentioned that the whole sort of way of of having bringing people to to the resolution that you want them to. I've always thought that's a bit sneaky. I don't really like that. Um I just want to give them the information as I see it. Now I'm I may present it like that because that that is the reality and um so you know not many people are going to go yes give me the drugs please. But um but >> you know not like that they're not. >> No no but that's that's the stark reality. you know, right? You're banging on. >> Yeah. And and it's it's important to to push that out there, you know, and and so when I educate people and tell them about this, which I think is actually informed consent, and that's the thing, you don't put someone on a treatment plan unless they have informed consent, you know, oh yeah, you need to go on those statins or or you're going to die of a heart attack. It's like, okay, well, what is the other side of it? Is this going to No, no, no, no. The benefits way out outweigh the risk. Okay. Well, what are the risks? Because maybe they outweigh them to you, but maybe that that's not the same to me. and um and and if you don't walk people through all those sorts of things, you are not providing informed cons they they cannot provide informed consent because they are not informed. And so, you know, I I just try to give people the information and then and then they get to because they are the ones going to suffer if things go wrong. >> Yeah. >> You know, or benefit if things go right. >> Yeah. And you know, the fact that they're talking to you in the first place means they have some kind of investment in doing something else. >> So, I mean, it's typically a fairly good start right there. >> Mhm. >> And you know, the other thing about understanding the type is some people need lots of data. Some people you need to keep it to a bare minimum or you're going to lose them. >> Yeah. >> And honestly, um, you don't need to know type to know a lot of this stuff. It's incredible how you if I if I picked out a stereotype of a person. All right. Think of a librarian. Think of a um someone who's a computer wiz. >> Mhm. >> Got images, right? And then think of the sports star. Think of a big biker. You know, this big security guard. You have a you'll have an image and a body shape that's going to go with each of these characters and that's the type their type. Librarian would be a one stern should, shouldn't, >> you know, not a lot of movement within that. Um, computer uh with person who's all very techy, not great with people. They're five, they're a cognitive. The big biker or the security guard, you know, um quite big and kind of what's the word I'm looking for? They um they take up a lot of space >> and uh they would be an eight, an instinctual. That's what they do. Their their job is protection. >> So, you know, the the the sporty bubbly person is the feeling type three, the drama queen or the, you know, the the housewives of um wherever you have all these women. There's an awful lot of fours in that. There's a lot of drama. There's a lot and they're not all dramatic, but they have a they they feel deeply like really really deeply to the degree that an awful lot of them end up on medication because everybody thinks they're depressed, but they're not. They're quite happy there. >> So, my friend actually talks about that. She goes, "I love the melancholy." Okay. >> So, >> that's what I'm saying. When you when when if you ever kind of think, gee, I'd love to learn how to do this. It's a simp it's kind of as simple as that when you >> know the different >> first body types and then certain characteristics that go with it and then you can kind of pick it and it doesn't really matter if you're wrong. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you can always adjust. >> Um Yeah. Okay. Um well Jen, thank you so much uh for coming on. It's been absolute pleasure to speak to you again. Um I'm very excited for the new book and then the and the third book after that is very interesting. So >> yeah, it might be a while for that one. Yeah, that's okay. Um, so yeah, please please let us know where people can find you and and find your books. >> Yeah, well the books are on Amazon. Um, they're in Kindle and in hard copy and it's just the healing compass series with my name. >> Um, if anyone wants to reach out, my email is jen.nrgmail.com enrgmail.com >> and I'll send you a link tree thing to put into the show notes because don't ask tell me tell you about social media my stepdaughter deals with that. >> Perfect. Great. Well, we we'll put all that in the show notes and everyone can take a look down below and and take a look there. So, Jen, thank you again so much. It's been a pleasure to speak with you again. >> Thank you. >> No problem. Thank you everyone for joining. Hopefully, you enjoyed that. Please do share this with someone you think would benefit by it and uh hit the like and leave a comment to help the algorithm and uh subscribe if you haven't. Thanks a lot everyone. See you next time.

Join my NEW 90 day Carnivore challenge group! Link below: https://dr-chaffee-s-90-day-carnivore-challenge.mn.co/landing/ 🌐 Discover More Resources, Guides, and Updates at My Website www.DrAnthonyChaffee.com - Your Hub For All Things Health and Nutrition Join My New YT Membership Today! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzoRyR_nlesKZuOlEjWRXQQ/join Jen Martin is the author of The Healing Compass, a book that weaves together the Enneagram, gender-based hormone insights, German New Medicine, and the carnivore diet into a simple, clean viewpoint for self-understanding and health. Drawing on years of study and personal experience, Jen, together with her husband Ian, help people see how personality, biology, and nutrition all interact in shaping our wellbeing. Through their business, ENRG, they offer personality typing, workshops, and resources that support people in navigating stress, healing, and lifestyle choices with greater clarity. Their work emphasizes accessibility, making complex frameworks easy to understand and apply in everyday life. Passionate about helping others find their bearings, Jen, together with Ian’s expertise in the Enneagram created The Healing Compass as the first in a series designed to orient people to where they are, so they can choose where to go next on their health journey. Contact details: email: jen.enrg@gmail.com Website: https://enrg117.wixsite.com/enrg Amazon book link: https://amzn.asia/d/3SLgOjA Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094133834594 🥩 New to the Carnivore Diet? Start Here → https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkkRSboRx_u2ymm3qL2PvUiwSa8KWvmk7&si=JxY6BlMx3A5RxtwX 📸 Follow on Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/anthonychaffeemd 🎵 Follow on TikTok → https://www.tiktok.com/@anthonychaffeemd 📘 Follow on Facebook → https://www.facebook.com/achaffee6 🐦 Follow on Twitter/X → https://x.com/anthony_chaffee ✅ Join my PATREON for early releases, bonus content, and weekly Zoom meetings → https://www.patreon.com/AnthonyChaffeeMD ✅ Book a 60-minute consultation with Dr. Chaffee → https://calendly.com/anthonychaffeemd/60-minute-consultation ✅ Don’t forget to like, comment, share, and subscribe for more insightful content! ✅ Linktree → https://linktr.ee/DrChaffeeMD Sponsors & Affiliates: ✅ The Carnivore Bar → https://the-carnivore-bar.myshopify.com/?sca_ref=1743809.v3IrTuyDIi 💲 Discount Code: Anthony for 10% off all orders ✅ Stone and Spear tallow and soaps → https://www.stoneandspeartallow.com/?ref=gx0gql8b 💲 Discount Code: CHAFFEE for 10% off ✅ Carnivore T-Shirts → https://www.plantfreetees.org ✅ X3 Bar System → https://www.kqzyfj.com/click-100676052-13511487 💲 Discount Code: DRCHAFFEE ✅ Schwank Grill (Natural Gas or Propane) https://www.schwankgrills.com/ANTHONY98004 Free grill cover with the purchase of a Schwank Grills grill with Discount Code: ANTHONY98004 This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user’s own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions. Dietary and lifestyle changes are only part of the complete health picture, the impact of which will depend on each person’s individual circumstances. It is important to stay under the care of appropriate health care professionals, whose advice should be sought before making any substantial dietary or other changes. #carnivore #weightloss #nutrition #diet