A Very UNIX Christmas w/ tony-btw

All right, I'm I'm recording. >> I am as well. So, I I'll start us off. I would say, >> hey, everybody, I am with Tony, by the way. Little collab that we've got going on for uh the Christmas season here. So, I figured let's uh let's have a chat about Linux, about open source stuff, about oh, wherever the uh the winds blow us. And uh yeah, I know that we have a little bit of an overlap of audience cuz like every single time you put post a video, there's people in my IRC channel, they're like, "Tony's new video. I'm trying out as window manager." I'm like, "Nice." >> They are they are industry plants from my side of things. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um but yeah, I've got a lot of fans of your channel, too. And I I have a Discord for right now, as we talked about before. it's proprietary garbage, but I still have one just to kind of have people, >> you know, be able to communicate to each other using that software or whatever until they realize that, you know, IRC is the way. And they always talk about your Emac stuff. Like I've got a couple guys that are really into Emacs and they're like, "Oh, I've watched System Crafters and I watched Joshua." I'm like, "Joshua Based?" They're like, "Yeah, Joshua Based. Is that his last name?" I'm like, "Yeah, it's officially his government last name. >> It could absolutely be my last name." Yeah, that's to be to be mentioned in the same breath as System Crafters. That's >> that's pretty nice, man. I'm I'm not going to lie. So, >> well, there's three Emacs YouTubers total. So, I mean, you're in the top three. >> True. It's me, Prozillos, and System Crafter. That's it. >> Yeah. >> And then DT if you want to count him, but he's using evil mode just like you probably. So, >> I'm a heretic. Yeah, dude. I am. So, >> I pro I don't know how to pronounce his name, but Pro >> Prozilos, I think. >> Protestant Emacs user. He's really He's really based actually. I saw his interview with Link Carzu and then I've watched like so many little random one-off videos from him about his little packages that he makes with like a thousand parenthesis. >> Yeah. >> So they're are so good. >> Yeah, he's he's actually like a I don't want to say he's a mainline contributor, but he definitely manages >> numerous Emacs packages. So >> yeah, >> he is uh he's the real deal. I have yet to do that and maybe one day, but uh >> I'm envisioning in 2029, which is not so far away if you know the arc, you'll probably be on geeks at that point. Let's talk about that. >> Is that on your notes? Is it on your notes? I'm curious. >> Well, I have nicks. I have nicks on my notes, but but geeks is logically for somebody that's an Emacs user, it feels like it would be kind of up the alley. >> Yeah, >> it does feel like it would be up the alley. >> What are your >> Yeah, I have a guy in my uh I have a guy in my Discord that constantly spams me like, "When when are you going to make your Geeks video? When are you going to make your Geeks video?" And I'm like, I'll make it eventually, but it it it's just I've got so many things in the pipeline, but he's like such a big Geeks fan. >> Yeah, >> he had me add a Geeks emoji and everything, but yeah, I think uh for geeks, it seems like it's it's from what I've tried with it, it seems like it's just so slow, at least for compiling packages or just downloading and installing packages. Um, but that other than that issue, I don't think it's really got an issue. I think it's pretty similar to Nyx. I mean, you don't have flakes, but you've got your own little variant of flakes, so you can still like lock and vendor um vendor your packages. So, I think it's pretty much going to be like if you're super into lisp in that style, I think you're going to love Guile and Scheme. And I think >> there's even plugins into Emacs for geeks is my understanding. So, that would be very very nice for like package management inside of Emacs. Like you could literally live inside Emacs. So, >> well, the only thing you're missing again cuz you're on Hyperland, right, as of right now or no? Yeah, I know exwm is not very good, right? >> The issue I I had talked about this with um I talked about this in on stream actually with I want to say link arzu and uh even DR tube was uh in in that episode >> DJ, right? >> Yes. And I said the issue with EXWM is that it Emacs is single threaded. >> So you get a hanging thread and your whole window manager goes down. Right. So, for a window management system, that's not super ideal. However, I've had I made a post about this um and it actually blew up on Hacker News, and people were like literally it was it was it was very polarizing. It was like, you don't know what you're talking about. Or the other people were like, "That's exactly why I don't run EXWM." So, people are like, "It's one side or the other." It's probably because my Emacs is not hyper optimized. I probably need to work on that config, you know, make it a full-time job a little bit more. And >> but I think I think if you if you cuz I watched your video like how I my whole life is basically the title was something akin to my whole life is in Emacs. >> Yeah. >> Or why I'm putting my whole life in. >> It's my computer now. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So I think like the only thing you're missing is that window manager, but dude, you don't need like every part of your I don't know. It's like it's like saying I want my processor to be emac somehow. >> Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think that it kind of breaks the Unix >> philosophy when you start doing like the the opinion that Emacs actually doesn't go against the Unix philosophy is an interesting one too because as a lisp interpreter, it does what it does very well. It's not actually it doesn't say it's a text editor. It doesn't say it's uh an email client, right? It's just a lisp interpreter and it does that one task very very well. But as soon as you use it to manage Windows and all that extra stuff, I think that you're kind of, you know, I think you're running up on the uh the guard rail of what is Unix philosophy versus not Unix philosophy, I suppose. And I'm not like I'm not super married to the Unix philosophy either, but >> I I am curious though like does FFmpeg break the Unix philosophy >> just like for for exactly what you're saying, right? It could be used for a million different things, but it's it does one thing and does it right. Yeah. >> Just like you said, it's lisp interpreter. I think it's yeah I think that it's such a I don't know it's such a subjective you know like system D is the one that always gets brought up right it's like oh system D is not Unix philosophy because it manages so many processes blah blah blah blah blah it's like >> I don't know I I I don't really have a dog in that fight I suppose like maybe I'm just not >> far enough down the rabbit hole but it's I don't know what >> does it actually matter though like that's the question at the end of the day like you're using a computer you wanted to do what you wanted to do, right? >> Yeah. >> Like, do you need to does your does your init system have to like, you know, be compliant with the Unix philosophy for you to, you know, make money on your computer as a like, let's say you have a job and you need your computer to like function as like a way for you to use your, you know, to do your job? >> Yeah. >> If your init system doesn't isn't compliant with, you know, the Unix philosophy, is your boss going to say, "Well, hang on a minute. Your init system here looks like it's a bit of a monolith. So your paycheck's going to go, >> yeah, they're dock your pay a little bit, you know, >> they're going to give you an ISO with like, you know, run it or on it or something like that, you know. >> Yeah. Like I I've never run Gen 2, right? So like I think that that's one thing that like people that run that sort of thing, they get super into that, right? Like I can compile >> my kernel, I can make it do this and this and this, right? Like for me, I've never really experimented with that. And I've tried to run >> like I've tried to run like Artics in the past which is obviously the the fork of >> uh Arch which is systemd free. You can choose uh run it uh whatever the other ones. Uh >> I think S6 and maybe I think Open RC is available on Artics as well. >> Correct. Yes. And I just I don't know man like learning systemd in and of itself for me is like I don't know. I feel like it's enough I guess. I mean, every job I've ever had, uh, like because I feel like 99% of systems are on systemd. Every job I've ever had, I've needed to know like systemctl status, you know, blah blah blah. Yeah. >> Or like systemctl restart >> Apache or whatever. And and and you know, it's all that stuff you can learn all those like translations to, you know, and run it and all that stuff. I think people complain about systemd because they think it's trendy to complain about something that's not that's like mainstream or whatever, you know, like, oh, Mac OS is mainstream, so let's complain about that. It's a different thing, though. That's that, you know what I mean? System D, maybe it's ubiquitous and bloated and a monolith or whatever, but it's like >> I would always ask that person who's complaining about system D, what do you not like about system D? And then it ends up being a a pretty quick path to them just saying, well, I just heard bad things about it. Okay. >> Yeah. It's not actually like a of first person opinion. It's almost like I heard it on, you know, X image board, so therefore >> it's bad, right? So that actually brings me into one of my questions that I wrote down is is 2026 the year of Linux? >> Um, you mean was 26 the year of Linux? >> Yeah, sorry. Cuz we're already in 2027. So, >> yeah. So, 2026. Okay. So, it's the year. Okay. So, actually that no, I saw a video or a poll saying that like 6.1% of uh desktop users are already on Linux. I don't know if that's valid though because it came from like a different uh it wasn't like a it was more of an alternative website we'll call it that was pulling their users. >> Yeah, >> we'll leave it at that I guess. But yeah, I don't really I don't know if you saw what I'm what I saw or whatever. But yeah, >> sure. >> Um but yeah, no, so I'm curious like okay, so let me ask let me answer that question with this. Do you are you somebody who wants are you like an an like an evangelist as far as like I want my neighbor to be on Linux? I want, you know, my wife or girlfriend to be on Linux. Like I need my dad to be on Linux. Like I want my grandmother on Linux. Or are you okay with just you using Linux? And then if somebody says, "Hey, what are you doing?" Like, "Oh, I'm on Linux." And then they say, "Oh, how do you teach them that person about about it?" >> See, I want what's best for everybody. So I want everybody to be on OpenBSD. So, exactly. It's so we're talking about the year of Linux is is actually it's deprecated, right? >> Yeah. Exactly. We're moving into the year of of of BSD, but >> we need to go further. >> Exactly. No, I'm personally like I've never >> I mean >> this is another question like how how you got started on Linux but like I started in like 2017 2018 I guess right so you know desktop Linux is >> at that time 2% maybe right >> and seeing it balloon as much as it is I mean I'm in I'm in a bubble right so I feel like Linux is so much more ubiquitous today than it was 5 years ago >> I feel like a lot of people are using it and using it well to the point where like well I mean frankly why are you using Mac or Windows in 2028 when you have Linux as as the state that it currently is right >> yeah I had a lot of thoughts on this actually especially with recent like um >> I don't know if you familiar with a YouTuber called Cold Fusion um I am he makes okay perfect so he did a really good series on like um where does money come from and then he did a follow-up like about it basically saying like what you know and we'll get into that later. But the reason I brought that up is because recently he did a video about Microsoft and and and Windows 11 and how Microsoft is my theory based on that video but also based on what I've heard is that it's going to be a reverse situation in about 10 years 5 to 10 years. It'll be Windows will be like where all like the business side of things goes and like all the systems servers and all that stuff is going to be on Windows and all the users are going to be on Linux. The reason I think that is because you look at Steam right now and it actually runs better on Linux. A lot of Steam games are better on Linux >> because the Steam Deck is a fork of Arch, not a fork, per se, but >> Steam Deck is on Arch Linux, by the way. >> So, it's like kind of it's kind of pretty cool. So, they have the Steam PC that's coming out and like all these Steam games are already on Linux and like you can just when I tried to run a Steam game on Linux 10 12 years ago. Yeah, good luck. You know, that's that's a >> dream. >> But, um you could do it. It's just in your reposi. It's just default unless you're on Debbian, which is 5 years behind of things, but it's just default. You know, you just open up your Pac-Man and install Steam and then you just get this Vulcan driver or whatever. You just click a button and you just start playing Counterstrike 2 or whatever the kids are playing these days. I don't really play games as much, but I know it's available on on Linux now. So, and I see a lot of people that are like, you know, know more about graphics than I do that tell tell me that like, hey, these are actually some pretty good benchmarks for for Linux compared to Windows. So much show that I have one guy that I know in my Discord that actually has a Lin he has he's on Linux. is on um I don't know Fedora or something like that and then he has a VM that's opens Windows that runs better because it has this GPU passed through to it through through QMU than regular Windows. >> So he was getting better frame rates on a VM through Linux. I'm like this is >> insane when you think about >> I told him to make a video about it but he's like nah I'm just going to keep this to myself. The only thing that's missing really on the gaming side from my understanding right now is essentially the anti-che is that um certain games for online play are still obviously um you're on a Linux OS that's get that's getting flagged and you know autoban because of X, right? So, I think that we're probably still a year or two away from gaming being completely ubiquitous, but I do believe that like there's going to be no uh moat around gaming as there was in 2017 when I started. Like, I don't think that that's going to be a valid reason for using Windows in the next two years, I would say. >> Cuz you're talking about like have you ever played Valerant or heard anything about Valerant? >> I've heard about Yeah. Yeah. >> So, there's a couple games like Valerant and CS2 and stuff like I don't know about CS2, but like for for example, Valerant when you install it, it injects like some anti-che system into your kernel. Like it has to be on Windows for that obviously. And I'm wondering like the people that are because I don't think everybody that wants to use Linux in the future is going to care about free and open source software. I just think they're just going to want to use the better operating system and they're going to be tired of Candy Crush ads in their start menu, you know, >> and on the Mac side of things, they might get tired of opening up Finder and not being able to find their home folder. >> But, um, yeah, I mean, that stuff, dude, when you open up a a Windows machine, it just forces all this AI like co-pilot stuff like down your throat. It doesn't even work and it's like such a nightmare. I I don't know how people are going to cuz I don't know if you ever used Windows XP, but that was like so nice to work with. you know, you just open up Windows XP, you get that beautiful sound or whatever, right? And then everything just worked. It's minimal. Kind of actually felt like a nice I called it a dro, but yeah, but nowadays like it's so not even a real thing. I can't even use a Windows 11. I can't even use one of those. Like I feel like I'm rambling, but yeah, you know what I'm saying? >> I feel like Microsoft has vibe coded like for the last 6 months of their like like the the whole OS from my third party understanding is is broken, right? like it's just it is not serving the user >> and people don't want that anymore and people don't want the >> they don't want the AI stuff. They don't want the advertisements. They want their computer to be their computer at the end of the day. >> And I think that that is what's offered when you look at the Linuxes and the Unixes. Uh you have that ability to just make it your own whatever that looks like, right? So >> yeah, >> I I I don't know. Like as much as as much as we talk about the the O word and stuff like I do think that there's been people that have >> looked at it as a valid alternative to Mac O. >> No, definitely. And and I think actually Omari I actually think it's a good thing. So I've kind of come full circle on this. I initially didn't like it prefer like from my preferences. Yeah. >> But um I do think it's actually a good thing for the community to have like you know, hey, this is a little ISO you can just throw on your computer and then it looks beautiful. So, you know, I get that. But for but again, these infighting, everyone says, "You're infighting. You're gatekeeping." Somebody accused me of gatekeeping on one of these comments saying, "Oh, you're gatekeeping for having an opinion about a market." I'm like, "Dude, I've made literally like 50 tutorials for free about how to get into Linux and various different how am I gatekeeping? I'm gates open. Come on, gates. Come on in." You know what I mean? Yeah. >> But um but yeah, I think the O word and everything all that goes I think we're elitists a little bit, you know, where I'm like, "Oh, I don't want to use the O word because that's somebody else's dot files and I've got my own dot files that I've been making for 20 years or whatever." And you know, you've got your Emacs set up that >> probably no one can go over to your computer and use it functionally except you. >> No, it's really good if somebody steals your computer, right? Like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Like what is this like cuz I have Konad set up. So like I use coac dh on my keyboard for for my laptop. So it's like if somebody stole my computer, they'd be like, "Why am I not typing in querty?" >> What the? >> They probably think they're drunk. They're start typing. They're like, "No, what? What's going on here?" >> Exactly. >> That's that um that's like your girlfriend yells at you cuz she tries to open up a she's like you're busy and she's like, "Can I use your computer to search something real quick?" >> So pissed off, man. She gets so pissed off. >> You got to make a a user for her on home on home manager. Exactly. And have it like set up the query layout. Everything is so You know what I Are you actually serious about 20 years on Linux or like when did you get started? Like what does that look like for you? >> [ __ ] actually. Um not 20 years. No, not 20 years. Um >> actually maybe >> What's your story, man? What's your story? >> So I I may be 20 years. Uh I was like 13 when I started Linux. Maybe younger. >> Okay. >> Uh my dad my dad open owned a computer store. So he at his house we had always a bunch of various parts and whenever I'd go to his house over the over the weekend cuz my parents were divorced. Um my whole thing was I would try to like set up a computer functional computer that would work so I could go online and play like Neopets or various Newground games like miniclipip.com or you know like just random games. >> Yeah. >> Online. >> And one day I think um to keep it brief I guess one day I I went to his house and I built a computer for like the weekend and he helps me and stuff and I got two brothers. were fighting over it and I'm trying to load up Neopets or Runescape at the time and it's just like super laggy because it's it's just like the machine hardware is not that good and it's what some ISO uh some like Russian pirated ISO of Windows XP and so my dad says here try this. So it gives me YUbuntu ISO. So I load it up, I try it and boom, Firefox is pre-installed on on at the time I open Firefox and it's blazingly fast. Like I I I can't believe I'm saying this but YUbuntu was not bloated at the time, >> you know. So, but yeah, so I was loading up Firefox and I'm like, "This is awesome." And then, you know, that's how my first Linux, that was my first thing with Linux was yubuntu, you know, just so I could play Runescape and play um, you know, play Neopets, whatever, right? And then you go back and you start thinking like, okay, how do I install something on yubuntu? And then you search like that on Google and then they tell you to open a terminal with control shift t or whatever or, you know, control alt t and then type pseudoapp install and then you just type the name of the program. So that to me was a you mean I don't have to go to a website and click download and then install and then no no thank you no thank you no thank you on all these like CC cleaner like bloatware and then yes I could just go I could just install it from this terminal and then that's what kind of started me and kept me there. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Oh, that's I mean that seems to be the terminal is obviously I think the big wow moment for a lot of people is like I can just type these commands and get a package from you know somewhere off the internet and >> it and you I can script this. I can make this reproducible. I can Wow. Like what what have I been doing for the last >> That's crazy, man. So So you're you're in your early 30s then obviously. >> Yeah, I'm turning 34 in like a week. >> Nice. So should be >> similar ages. Similar ages. So >> right on because you're 21, right? >> I am 12. >> So okay. So you're a minor. >> Look at this beard, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's better than mine for sure. I had to trim it recently for like I don't even know why. It's just was getting out of hand, you know. But um for example, for you like when you type nick shell-p space name of program and you know that as soon as you exit that shell, you're that's gone. >> It's it's gone. Does that not feel like a little bit of a boom boom boom moment again? You know what I'm saying? >> Another point I wanted to talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, man, like I I think everything that I even like little scripts that I've been working on, >> I package them with a flake and I can literally pull down from that repo with Nyx and just go Nyx run, you know, the repo name and the argument that I need and it runs. Like that's >> it it's kind of >> that's powerful. >> Yeah. It's it's so I don't think like I can convey this to somebody that's like not in software or computers, but the fact of the matter is is that like you are now packaging software for >> anybody running the Nyx package manager on any effectively any system because Nyx is ubiquitous, right? Like it's not just it's not just the OS, it's >> yeah, >> it's not just the programming language, it's the package manager itself. You can run that on Mac. You can run that on anywhere and it's all off of a GitHub repo, you know, that some idiot like myself made, right? Like >> No, exactly. >> And and you can put a the fact that you have like a DRM and everything and like it works on ARM 64 tech or like Darwin or whatever and somebody else could like let's say you're making a project and somebody else wants to like add something to it. All they need to do if they know Nyx is just like you said Nyx run or whatever. they can download the repo and just drop into a flake and they have your exact environment and you're like, "Okay, there's never going to be a problem of it works on my machine." You know what I mean? >> There's never going to be a Docker dependency or hell issue or whatever. Um, and I mean that's how I build everything now is that everything has a flake like right off the bat. Everything has avr cuz I use duren. >> So, yeah. So you CD into the directory that you're working on and the dependencies for that project are all immediately loaded into your environment. You can you can inject environment variables. You can do uh scripting within that flake. >> Like >> I don't know man like >> and you can even like print some beautiful stuff to the top of the en environment like okay you know here's some commands that you know to build this you know zig build this you know >> you could explain the environment right. >> Exactly. Yeah. I love that part about the the flake. >> It it it is like to me it's a paradigm shift. Like I I almost feel like Nyx is a paradigm shift away from Linux almost like it's a declarative when you get into declarative stuff. You're like >> this is you you had the moment when you started on Linux and you're like why have I not been doing it this way forever? And then you have the declarative moment. You're like why have I not been doing it this way forever? Right. >> I feel like I want to chase the next moment. Yeah. Like I don't know how to explain this, but do you remember the first time you watched Breaking Bad? I'm just assuming you watched it. >> I have. Yes. >> Okay. So, have you ever found that moment in your heart where like you saw another TV show where you're like, "Oh my god, this is the bet. This is the next Breaking You know what I'm saying?" >> Sure. >> You see where I'm going with that? Like it's like >> Yeah. I don't know. I know Breaking Bad's proprietary garbage, but yeah. It's like it's it's like that time I watch Breaking Bad and I'm like, "Oh, I can't wait for the next episode to come out." It's like my friend that has just now started Breaking Bad. I'm like, "Dude, are you um they have they're having that feeling of, oh, I get to watch the next episode, and I'm like, I wish I could watch Breaking Bad for the first time again." You know what I mean? >> Yeah. It's the uh what's the word that I'm looking for? Not not, but uh novelty. It's the novelty, right? >> But something about like something about what you said like you start off with just being able to install something from your terminal and you're like, "Okay, this is crazy." But then you get to what you're talking about where it's actually crazy and you're like, "Okay, this is actually crazy." Like, "This is actually insane. I can actually just have a perfect container here without using Docker and anybody on any system can replicate this if they want to push it to open source >> or whatever. I have five different machines. So I can go to a different machine that'll be declaratively installed literally literally if you if you want to even go that way, you know. >> Yeah. Well, you can also deploy to any machine from your machine which is nice. That's that's nice using uh uh deploy RS or Colmna. I've been playing around with both of those, but like literally my entire fleet of machines now is Nyx OS. >> Right. >> Right. Um I know that you use VMs a lot. Is your base system Nyx or what do you what are you running? >> So I've got three Nyx systems. One Gen two system and one Arch system basically. So >> um my main machine that I'm on right now is on Gen two. That's what I'm talking to you on, but it'll probably be on Nick soon. Um, I have a server that I use like as well upstairs that's on Nyx, but I use it as more of a server and a machine as well. But >> and then all my laptops, one Nyx, one um, Arch and then Yeah. So I the thing is like I have too many computers. But yeah, for me, you know what I'm saying? Like I need to test like all this stuff on different dros and on Nick I think it's the best way to do it because you can just hop into a DRO box on Nick in an easy way. you can like make a module for it and it's like I don't know it's like almost like I will eventually replace all of my systems with just Nexos but um I'm keeping a couple things on like older different dros. I call them legacy dros. >> I don't know if you ever >> I have heard the legacy term and I loved it because I was like Arch is a legacy dro now now and it I think I'm sure you triggered some people with that one. >> 100% 100%. I mean it is a legacy dro basically there's only two non-leacy dros. One is geeks and one is Nicks. So, if you want to use like a non-leacy dro like like join the club, you know what I mean? But if you're on legacy distros, I'll give you in I'm going to give you instructions on how to install whatever for that legacy dro, but just know that your dro is not going to receive support in the next 5 to 10 years because it'll be a legacy dro, you know what I mean? So, >> I I think that declarative is the way that things are going. Like I think at the end of the day when you see how impactful that is and you're like I I just think back to I started with Arch Linux, right? like the amount of commands that I ran in terminal that I completely forgot to replicate a system when inevitably that system didn't work any longer. >> It I don't have to worry about that anymore. Like my repository in GitHub publicly facing I can literally just go clone on any machine. And I just I did it the other day. I brought my workstation back to my my home and I it it was like two years out of date and I'm like, "Okay, Nix OS, there you go. Ready to go in 30 minutes." >> Yeah. Actually, I set up my server like that, too. Like, I set it up before even setting it up. Like, I I didn't even plug anything in. I just set up the config file and then I'm like, "All right, it should work in in in practice." And then I went over to set it up, plugged in a USB, started like typing some commands, and then, you know, I had like pretty much no errors and loaded up like a perfect machine exactly as I wanted it. I'm like, "Okay, we're good to go." The only thing I was missing was like some secrets and stuff like I don't want my I don't know. I have certain things I don't want to be putting on like some git repo. So, I have like >> Do you use um because there's solutions for that. I use uh what do I currently use? >> I use I use there's a way to encrypt git crypt. So, that will encrypt >> specific files in GitHub. So you can actually just literally upload a complete repository with those files encrypted. And then there is uh what do I use? I use uh a ax. >> Ax. >> Yeah. Agentex. >> Yes. And and that allows you to have a age key on your machine that that's the only thing that you would have to transfer over because that is it's kind of like an SSH key. You don't really want to be putting that out there. But you take that and you can then uh have your secrets encrypted within the the git directory and publicly facing as well. And that key is what unlocks all of that. So I don't know if >> yeah I haven't tried I haven't tested any of that stuff just because for me like all of my machines are in my house and I've got like a flash drive that I use for so if anybody wants to come rob me there is a flash drive in my house somewhere that it says GPG on it. So that's that's actually the decoy that's a malware Bitcoin miner. So if you want that, take it. But yeah, no, I've got all my I've got all my stuff I need like on a flash drive. So I just put everything on my machines and then I have like stuff in my bash rc that like tells me to point to a local file that doesn't actually exists on the repo and then I just uh put everything in there. So >> yeah, that >> if you wanted to SSH to my machine and steal all my stuff, you know where it is. >> There you go. >> So yeah. Yeah, that's I I was kind of I was definitely hesitant about it, but at the same time like I think that that is they use it in many many different like fleet management stuff like you're using that on like like enterprisegrade stuff. So I mean >> Oh yeah, NASA probably uses it. >> It has to be fairly decent, right? >> Yeah. I bet the military industrial complex will be sending drone strikes using Nixos one day. I'm thinking that uh is isn't uh Palmer Lies or whatever his his company runs a bunch of and they invest in nicks and stuff. I I don't know all of this, but it's I don't know. >> I'm not sure. I know Palanteer is probably all all on Red Hat. So, >> probably probably >> but but yeah, we go down that rabbit hole. But yeah, it's it's it's it's just so interesting to me that there's like such a world of Nixos that people don't know about. Like for me, even if you just use the default Nyx OS, like just the config file, no home manager, no flakes, just Nix OS, you are already like experiencing like 1 to 2% of why it's so good >> because it's just at that point I will just say and I'll get flack for this, but it's literally just Arch Linux at that point, but better because you could just if you Pac-Man sy and then you're say, "Hold up, mom. I got I'm going to be late for a meeting. I I accidentally have a broken package." You don't have to do that. you just roll back to the, you know, one before, go to your meeting, then you can fix it after, and then you'd be like, "No, we're fine." You know what I mean? So, it's kind of like already and also it's better than Debian, too. >> I was going to say you get Debian and and Arch in one place. Uh, yeah. And you can roll back if you ever have any breaking changes. Uh, like I don't know, man. It it to me it does seem like a no-brainer, but I mean I could be I could be an idiot because I've definitely been an idiot before. So, >> people like to say, and this is like people like to say, "Oh, it's not file. It's not FHS compliant." Yes. >> And then people also like to say that um they don't like home manager or you know whatever and I understand that. >> Um but the and also they like to say because you it forces you to use system D like they won't use it. >> So those are the three okay not the three those two arguments that you're locked into system D and then you're also like not it's not FHS compliant. >> Yeah. >> If you're actually need those two things then don't use Nixos. You know that's what I would say. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I mean really FHS compliancy from my understanding and I mean I am a create, read, update, delete monkey, right? So like I I am I'm generally working in the browser. So I'm not using you know I'm not using the I'm not using stuff that's hardware facing. But if you are working with the hardware, I do think that that is potentially where you would run into issues. Right. And I do know that um graphicsoriented stuff, sorry my alarm was just ringing there. graphics orientated stuff is where people run into issues with it as well. So, >> well, I I've I've had some issues with the FHS uh FHS compliance stuff like you know, you just expect like for example like when you want to make an ARCH package. Yeah. >> You need you need like you need an FH FHS I don't even know file hierarchy standard like I think is what it stands for. >> Yes. >> You need you need that. Um like you need Etsy, you need like all that stuff. >> But um you could just Dro box that. >> True. I just dro boxed it and then I just went in there and was like, "Okay, here here's how I'm going to make my my AUR package." I made an AR package on Nyx OS through a dro box. Like, why would I go why would I do that on Nix on Arch? I don't need to do it on Arch. >> But um >> also like there's a like a plugin for Nixos called LD Nyx LD. I think it's like some way to handle some FHS compliance issues. But again, as you said, like I mean I made a window manager and it touches bare metal all the time and I don't need to >> I don't necessarily need I must not need FHS compliance because I developed that almost 90% of my development on that was on XOS. >> You know what I mean? So I don't know. >> Let's talk about let's talk about OXWM because you you released a video about that. Uh I think that is that your most recent video? >> Uh I made a BSD video like a couple days ago. >> We'll talk about that too. We'll talk about that too. But no, no, the OXWM. So, how was the development process for that? It is X11. >> It's X11. Yeah. So, so um it's a lot uh a lot of it was Okay. So, yeah, I started basically I did a video on DWL. Um which is basically supposed to be a clone of DWM but for Wayland. >> Sure. >> And DWM is like I don't know if you agree with this, but I would say DWM is probably the best window manager for X11. um subjectively my opinion but it's >> I have heard that. I have heard that. I I do I I used to run BSPWM was my >> So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So >> so BSPWM I think is also really good too. They're both really good. Um but DW Okay. So long story short, DWM is is is what DWL is based off of, right? Allegedly, >> but it's for Wayland. So, it's like it I I was working on a video for it and I had to like make sure that my DWL setup kind of matched my other setups like my hyperland setup or my you know, my DWM setup and you know there's not that many patches for it because it's kind of like not as mainstream or whatever. It's not as like developed as uh DWM. So then I looked at the patches like yeah what I need is not in here so I need to make my own patch. So which is fine. I I'll just write some C make a patch for what I need. is a very small thing. So I'm looking at the variable names and and dude the variable names are so terrible. You know you get like selman. I mean I know that means selected monitor but I'm like what is this selman? What is this? You get all these like two line ih o I guess is inner horizontal hour horizontal. But I'm just like what's wrong with typing out the full variable name like inner underscore horizontal. That's how I do things. >> Y >> so that that's how it started. I was just complaining in my discord to nobody. I was like oh this is terrible. Look at these variable names. And then one other guy was like, "Dude, yeah, those are trash, man. Just make your own WM." I was like, "You know what? I will." So I uh so of course I didn't make it in Wayland because it gets really hard. So I uh just started in X11. I'm like, I'm just going to rewrite DWM kind of, but in like I'll do it in Rust and then I'll kind of like make it so that it has a config file instead of needs to be compiled. Um and then I'll add some batteries included features. So basically that's what it turned into and it became, you know, my project for like three months or whatever. And I had some help from some of my guys in my discord like you know um helping out with the rust side of things too and you know one of my one of my uh friends in Discord he kind of made an error handler for me because I was abusing anyhow too too much for that. So it's pretty nice but yeah we we we've come a long way with it and I mean I've been daily driving it for about a month on my main machine and two months on every other machine. >> So So it's good to go then right? like >> and I would say it's it's got some issues, but uh it's in beta, you know. So, ever since I made that video, like I've had like more issues popping up because people are like playing games on it and they're like, "Oh, but this doesn't work." I'm like, "I don't play games, so I don't know." But thanks for pointing that out. I'll check it out. >> Pull request me, right? >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, but it's been awesome. Yeah, I've been using it. Um it's been fun. And on the X X11 side of things, a lot of that's already documented. All the problems are solved problems. you can look at the you know the codebase of DWM or Qile or Xmonad or whatever and just kind of see what they do and I don't know you can read all the source code and say hey what's going on here and like it's got really good documentation on a lot of these window managers so I just kind of took their ideas kind of combined them into one and just started working on it in a Rust project and >> yeah it was pretty fun >> that's dope man yeah like I've I have never even thought about doing something like that so that is >> dude you should try it man I >> try it in Zigg >> I was going to say Zigg is something that I am learning in my, you know, over the over the Christmas break here. So maybe that'll be something to look into cuz I needed something a little bit lower level I feel like. >> Yeah. Yeah. Zigg is perfect for that. I think >> you think so? >> 100%. Yeah. >> If I could do it over again, I would do it in Zigg. >> So what are your what's your opinion about this Zigg versus Rust thing? Because I I hear there is some people are definitely jumping off the Rust boat to the Zigg ship. I don't know if you've heard about that or not, but >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what do you think about Zigg for Have you tried Have you been tickering with it? >> I mean, I I am like I am like very green with it. Like I'm doing like Zigglings, right? So, I'm not like I'm not like there yet to have like an opinion. One thing I will say is I I have some experience with Go and I like I like the philosophy surrounding the simplicity of the language. I think that there is definitely something to be >> applauded there. Um, with that being said, like I've never really done man, uh, manual memory management myself or anything like that, >> uh, because Go has that all kind of built in with you. The, uh, the garbage collection, everything is kind of built in. >> So, that's kind of been interesting to me. Um, but yeah, that's I guess that would be my my opinion of it thus far. >> Yeah, in terms of Rust versus Zig, I think people they're both solving different issues that C has like that C has basically. I think right I would say people on the rust side of things they don't want to they have a borrow checking system and like it's its own thing that's it kind of feels like there's a garbage collector that's what it kind of feels like when you're writing code >> but there's not so it's kind of this kind of magical thing where you write code and there's no garbage collector but it feels like there is because you're using you know Rust's borrow checking system or whatever >> and the compile time error checking is good too like Rust LSP is really really good Rust analyzer I don't know Rust is like really really like advanced I think is from compared to 5 years ago >> I would say like cuz I I did like explore a little bit of rust and like 5 minutes into it I was like this compiler is nice like the errors that this thing throws is I don't I've never seen this before right like I think that that is something that I can >> that's about all I can say about Rust but I do know people that write Rust like they're very >> I could be wrong about this but very like safety forward like they really they want to avoid the foot guns as much as possible. Um, >> yeah, like the compiler will force you to they put a bunch of guard you get a bunch of guard rails, right? So, Zigg's trying to solve C in a different different way. They think that they for Zig the mission statement, I don't know exactly what it is, but I've listened to the developer or the maintainer or founder or whatever named Andrew Kelly talk about this. He wants to solve it in a way where like the problems that he has with C are that like he thinks it's silly that you have to write you know like pound if def or like pound define like why can't you just write const you know name of file >> and he literally cannot get an answer to that question every time he asks that question they just answer him oh it's just that's because it won't compile if you don't do it like that like that he's like okay so let's just fix the compiler so that's kind of how everything started with him and I think you can kind of see it when you write zig you're like okay everything here like you still have to, you know, me manually allocate memory. But there's different allocator types. So he has like a general allocator and then you can use that like as needed. But there's different ways to allocate memory and he's done a really good job with the language I think and he's continuing to work on it. It's in uh 15 0.15.2 right now. So it's not even on 1.0, >> right? >> But um I I think it's been because I've written C before and it's like just everything just works, you know? Then when you write C, you can just do it quickly. But Zigg is like the build system is so nice. It's like when I look at a long make file >> compared to a build file, I'm like, okay, I can kind of read the build file. It's more English, you know? I you know, it's just it's better. And then uh I don't know, I just like Zigg a lot. It's um I've been messing with it a lot recently. Um but yeah, both the languages, Rust and Zig, they're solving different problems, I think. But um I don't know besides that it's kind of like above my pay grade as well I would say cuz for for my real job I don't use any low-level languages at all. It's like a as you said it's like a crud uh monkey. >> Go honestly for about 95% of the things that I want to do like you can do CLI and go very nicely. You can do web server very nicely in Go. Like I would say it's probably one of the nicest languages for web server stuff. Um, and it's fast compared to the web stuff. It's not fast compared to C or Zigg or whatever, but >> I mean it it is like the I mean the creators behind Go were I mean Ken Thompson was one of the people on C >> founders of C, >> right? So you had essentially like >> hey we did some things we want to you know iterate on and make better in this >> this new language, right? So you have those people that are on the team doing stuff that is it's it's very it's very nice to kind of see that full progression of it I would say. >> Right. Right. Yeah. I think Go is also but it has a garbage collector. Right. So it's kind of like it's kind of like a hybrid between you know you're basically comparing it maybe to something like PHP or something or what would you be comparing it to? >> I would be comparing it to probably Python and Pi PHP probably or even like Ruby or something like that I would say. Okay. Ruby. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Cuz I know a lot of people who like Go. Um, is it a scop to think that is it is it a conspiracy theory to think that Go is related to Google in any way or No, >> it is heavily related to Google. Yeah, I think it was fully Are you Are you joking or you are you serious? >> I'm being serious. I'm being kind of somewhat serious. Like when I say related to, I mean nefariously in some way. Like is there you see what I'm saying or no? >> They had previously built in telemetry. I like how you asked me. You're like, "Are you joking?" >> No, no. Like, no. Cuz because they they had built telemetry into it at one point that people were like, "What are you doing?" >> And they kind of stepped back on that, but I don't really think otherwise there's any It's hard to say, right? I don't know. >> But it's a completely Is it a Because you're you're a you're a skeptic. Is it a completely open source uh like is the source code for for Go completely open source? Okay. Okay. So, you can everyone can audit it. Like there's no Bitcoin >> Yeah, you can go read it. Uh it's on GitHub. It has like I think it has like 150,000 stars or something. So, it's definitely >> Yeah, it's definitely out there. >> I just I don't know what's going on, but like when I see the word Google, I kind of get like a little bit of an irrational uh Whoa. Exactly. Yeah. As the 20-year-olds would say, you know what I mean? >> The 20-year-old girls. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, I I I'm with you, man. I I do believe that there's there is definitely true conspiracy theories out there. >> Yeah. >> So to say is there, you know, is there nefarious things built into a programming language? >> I'm just not on the level of literacy to tell you yes or no, I suppose. Right. >> Cuz I heard somebody tell me that like he to prove a point, he said that the compiler like basically any language that compiles itself can be like malware kind of. And I don't really know too much about like I didn't do a deep dive on this, but just hearing that I'm like, "Okay, I need to read about what he's talking about." >> I mean, it would make sense because the compiler could probably at at compile time could inject nefarious code, could it not? Like, >> I don't know. >> Cuz I I don't I really know anything about compilers, but it's like I know that >> comments below. >> Yeah, exactly. >> This is the thing I love about YouTube. I'm sure you've had this too, but you get people that are way smarter than you commenting on your and you're just like >> I mean it's what brought me back to Emacs, dude, cuz I I made a video about why I left Emacs and >> I saw that. I kind of got sad when you made that video. I'm like, really? Okay. >> Well, this was that was a year ago, right? I'm a changed man now. But but >> you had the redemption arc, returning to the church. >> Correct. Yes. Yes. And I was a heretic. I still am a heretic because I use evil mode. But um >> it's actually funny because I used to watch you uh like vicariously to be like living emacs through somebody else and I'm like oh this guy looks like a normal person like he's just a normal guy like no no no offense like but you know what I'm saying when you think of an Emacs user like GNU Emac stands for generally not used by anybody except uh by anybody except middle-aged computer scientists or whatever. >> Somebody with beards that are like this long type of thing. >> Yeah 100%. >> Yeah. So when I saw your video I'm like this guy looks normal and he's using Emacs. Like wait maybe I could try Emacs, you know? So that that's kind of what kind of partially got me into it. So I'm like, "Okay." But then I would just watch from afar from the shadows and be like, "Okay, let's see what he does with Emacs." Then I saw your meditation and like, you know, you log that you got some decent sleep, you know? I'm like, "Okay, so he's fully into Emacs." >> My daily file. My daily file. >> Let me get half pregnant with Emacs first. Like let's start with org mode. Let's start with, you know, the org agenda. >> You can only be you can only be pregnant or not pregnant as you and I both know. So you uh Sorry. You're probably fully impregnated now. >> It's a binary. Yeah, it's exactly. Yeah, >> it's a bull. It's a boolean. >> But on that video of leaving Emacs, I had people in the comments being like, >> "How can you leave Emacs?" Like, it's a Lisper interpreter. Like, when you understand what it actually is, cuz I was using it as a as a text editor, you know, with some plugins effectively. >> Yeah. It's not a text editor, right? >> No, I I would say that Emacs is a computer, bro. Like, I would say I would say it is it is on the level of like >> uh I mean lisp is a touring complete language. you can do anything with it, right? So, if you wanted that environment to, >> you know, do whatever, I mean, play chess and people have done that. Play Tetris. Not that that really matters, but the the best thing you could do in Emacs is you can open up the EShell and you can like we can run Vim in the EShell if you really wanted to. So, people say it doesn't have everyone says Emacs is really good at everything except it doesn't have a good text editor in it. Well, you actually have Vim available to you and Nanate. But yeah, I like the ES shell a lot. I'm sure there's a better shell, but I just like the ES shell because for me in evil mode has insert mode enabled into it. So I can just hit escape and then like I've got a keybind to go to the previous buffer. So I'll just go escape and then like space BP to go back to where I was. Yep. >> So I just quickly open up a terminal and then like maybe do a get pull. I don't really use maget or maggot. >> You don't use maggot >> cuz cuz I have I have it but like I just am better and faster on just get command terminal. You know what I'm saying, >> brother? You have got to use mag. >> I I have used it before. I mean, it's nice. You just hover something, stage it, commit it with C, and then push it with P. I I like that part of it. But, dude, for me, it's just I don't know what it is about me, but just the way I grew up on Git is like I just like to see the command lines and like type the know get push, get pull, get fetch, get rebase. I just do that. >> You don't even use lazy git then. Eh, you're >> I've tried it again, but it's one of those for me nonzerocost abstraction things that's like >> I don't need it. I don't want it. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> But >> I mean when you get into like cuz if you're doing let's say you're doing cuz your window manager is probably you know you're going to get pull requests on your window manager, right? >> Yeah. >> Forge and maggot is pretty nice. You can bring in pull requests. You can like say you can literally like you know you can literally just >> take your pull requests, fix them, push them back out and say it's fixed. >> Close it. It's good to go. I got to explore that because I've been using GH PR checkout 91 or whatever for like just to check out the I just manually check it out and then I just look at the code and I'm like this sucks and then I just post on the I post a I'm like what's going on here dude >> l generated >> yeah I got a we'll talk about that in a second too but I got a I got a poll request about about somebody I think he accidentally made a pull request I think he forked oxm and then like made a poll request to like his own fork but >> and then so I'm getting no he no comment messages at all in it. Just he keeps committing to it and I'm like, "What are the what are these changes?" And it's like an auto start file. It's like he's putting his own auto start file into the repo. I'm like, "What is this, dude?" >> But yeah, and there's a bunch of comments that look like it was like a GPT. I'm like, "What's going on here, man?" >> Yeah. >> I I mean, with that color scheme, I had so many people pull requesting cuz like I only run a certain very small stack of software, right? So like people are like >> Icew and like Z editor and VS Code and all this like people are pull requesting for all these different things. And I was like nice bring it bring it my way. I >> I will just approve this and you know I'm going to read to make sure there's no nefarious you know colors. >> No Bitcoin miners. >> Yeah. Exactly. But but other than that I'm like yeah send me your poll requests. I'll There you go. >> Yeah. It's pretty cool. Actually, I I do have a couple guys that made poll requests and like fixed actual bugs. And I'm like, this is actually it's actually crazy. Like, this whole thing started because I was mad at variable names on some other guys software >> and then now I'm getting pull requests from people because they're fixing actual bugs. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay, [ __ ] Or adding features. People have added features. >> Yeah. I mean, it's kind of funny coming from a stupid color scheme compared to like a full-on window manager, but like even just seeing like how people contribute to a color scheme is is pretty nice. >> No, that's awesome. That's awesome. >> Yeah. Have you ever had anybody commit to your or like put pull requests to your like Nyx dot files? >> No. No. I was going to ask you about this because I know that this is a thing that people are like, "Hey, >> people do this, dude. >> People commit pull requests to personal do file repos. >> Never happened to me." No, I I will say that >> it's never happened to me either, but I've I've seen it happen. Like one of my friends, he's not even like a YouTuber. He's just a guy. And somebody made a poll request, too. I'm not saying that YouTubers aren't special or whatever, but like or he's just a guy. I don't know why I said that, but yeah, he's just like a normal plebian, I guess. And he's he's got like a dot files repo, and he showed me this pull request, and it was like somebody like adding not like a bug fix to his do files, like adding some opinionated thing to his dot files. >> And I think it was the same situation where he forked it and then tried to push to his own fork, but just doesn't know that how the fork worked. Yeah, >> maybe. I don't know. >> I have seen that. It's like, and I guess why would you fork something that you're just going to work on yourself? Like wouldn't you just clone it and then move on with your own, >> you know? I don't know. >> I I don't know. Like I I've never I've always thought the fork is literally to contribute to the main >> I I think so too, >> right? >> Yeah. Because when I make um like let's say I want to steal someone's work, I'll clone the repo and then in the description of the uh readme.org file, not readme.md, but the read.org, the first line will be like this was heavily inspired by and then I'll put the link to the original repo. Um but that's about it. I'm not going to fork it if I'm not going to >> Yeah. submit a PR to me. >> You're a readme.org guy, too. Eh, >> 100%. And and and I used to be readme.md, but then like this is how it all started. Readme.org was how it started for me. Like, okay, the org file, you sold me on it. So, I downloaded Doom EMAC and I know that we're getting right into it now. Finally, like now we're in, we're talking about Emacs. I downloaded Doom EMAC because I'm like, okay, let's Dro tube Emacs. Okay. He's like, how to get configured with Doom EMAC? >> So, hey guys, today we're going to talk about Doom EMAC and here's how you're going to get involved. And then he opens up his YUbuntu VM and he says, "So on Abuntu here, I'm going to type in pseudoapp search Doom EMAC." So I don't find it here, but I'm going to go ahead and github.com. You know, whatever. So I follow his little guide on setting up Doom Emacs. >> Y >> and I've got Doom Emacs all set up. I'm like, this is nice. This is feels pretty good. And then like um I saw some videos, you know, referenced by System Crafters and you and stuff. And so I'm like looking at some packages like Dear Ed and figuring out how to maneuver around Dear Ed with like HJL, you know, and stuff. And then it s all of a sudden I'm writing my own. And all I was doing was writing org mode documents. That's all I cared about. I was like, "Okay, let me at least make a readme.org." Because you can have these to-dos. You can have these nice like section table of contents. Like you can have these nice bullet points. It's just better than MD. >> This is how it starts. >> I don't even think it's >> Yeah, there's no comparison, right? Isn't org just way better than MD? >> I 100% I'm with you. Yeah. So then I found you know found out you can actually write code in a in an or mode snippet interpret it with lisp and turn it into like a babble like babble it tangle it whatever into a lacred toml can be its own like rigma.org self-documenting combo file. Y >> So I'm like, okay, that's actually pretty sick. That's powerful. So I did that. I'm like, okay, that's cool. Don't know if I could do this with my whole file repo, but that let's do this for now. >> Yeah. >> And then you start to say, well, >> interrupt, just to interrupt you there, I have walked back a little bit. So >> you walked back. >> I've walked back on the fully literate Nyx config. >> But but but still, if you have like one random dot file thing, do you still babble tangle the whole thing? >> Uh, I would say yes. like my full Emacs config is literally program >> 2,000 lines or so or no. >> Yeah, about that. But as soon as you go over that, it's not super fun to parse. Uh specifically with Nyx where you're you know you have there's repetitive stuff in there. >> So that's that's where I walked it back, but sorry to interrupt you. >> No. And then also well no, while we're on this uh tangent, I don't like the fact that you can't like go to reference, go to definition and stuff like that with within like a little snippet, right? >> You know? >> Yeah. So I think these are really for these little small TOML files like elacrity.totml qile.config.py Pi or whatever like all these sure these are all good but soon as you get into like a project like >> like a NYX project for example >> you want to go to a reference or go to definition on like wherever this is defined because imported somewhere like you can't do that in the snippet right I mean you probably could >> you can so you can actually open up in in like a LSP uh like in an LSP derived buffer you can actually do that I know that there's some way to do that would I do it I don't know I think that it gets a little bit too much at a certain point. >> Yeah, I would say >> once you get on geeks, you'll probably have that all set up >> probably. >> Yeah, probably. >> But then, so yeah, so long story medium, I guess. I I I I use the the readme.org because I'm like, okay, so everything is going to be an org file for me, right? >> Like I can I can do I saw one of your videos about this. you can set up an agenda and basically like it's within two or three like keybinds that you can you can define them yourselves using parenthesis but like you know you you can basically say okay I want to see my entire agenda like this is the dangerous stuff like urgent this is like the mid mid-level stuff this is like the low level and it's nice you can do all that inside of Emacs and um with the readme.org file like you can put to-do stuff like for the oxwm window manager I've got a section of stuff that's going to be like you know future implementation and I can just mark it as done just by hitting enter >> in in Emacs and it's just really feels really good and especially with the YouTube workflow. I don't know about you but a lot of the videos I make I write a little bit of a script of some sort so I don't say um so I don't stay like so I don't get too far off topic right on the video. >> Yeah. >> I can put that all in a in a readme.org file and then I have a website. So if I make a tutorial on on on YouTube, I can push it to a website using Hugo converting the org file to a Hugo like HTML static, you know, page >> and it's all fully integrated and then you know it's uh I don't know you can't really can't explain it to people I guess that don't use Emacs but it's it's OP. You know just or alone only or mode this is nothing else about Emacs. >> Org is one of like seven killer apps of Emacs 100%. Like I would say that um one or is kind of the gateway drug. I think that a lot of people are like ah you know like I'll use Emacs just for org mode and then I'll still use Neo Vim for my projects and stuff but I think what happens is that it just it just pulls you in and you know 6 months down the road you're like I am reading my email in Emacs. I am doing all of this stuff because you're just seeing how powerful the text workflow is I would say. And then you're on IRC with Emacs talking to degenerates about MSAD and what have you. >> Yes. So come join Come join Tony and I on the IRC channel. There'll be a link in the show notes. But yes >> technical renaissance. >> Exactly. Yeah. #technical renaissance on lia chat. But yes, I mean you start to see like the power of text, right? And I think that that is the I mean that's the we're talking about paradigm shifts to me. That was another one was where you start to see the power of text and how that's been abstracted away in the modern computing landscape to >> you know what I'm saying? You kind of get Yeah. >> No, I and I see where you're going with this and I I reflecting on your video that you talked about how >> like the internet in general and technology has been so bad recently >> and you're literally like holding a mic like this. You're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, "Well, Tony, you don't have to do that. Come join me in IRC." >> Yeah. >> And then you start going on like a little looks like an ad hoc rant about how like I don't want a subscription to Netflix to only have to see a 1280 by 720 version of what I've paid $199. >> That was Louis Rossman. But I mean, yeah. Yeah. >> I'm putting that in your Yeah, exactly. I'm putting that in your because it's one of those things that you don't want to have to >> Yeah. >> I don't want to pay 36 $36,000 for a car and then have an ad that gets me in a car accident about Sirius XM. I don't want to have to make a SiriusXM account and log out of it or whatever, right? So, it's like but that's all the stuff you're talking about is like >> I don't want to have to use Facebook to, you know, everything you're talking about is like kind of what I've been thinking about recently. Yeah. And for somebody who likes soft, like I'm a software developer. I hate technology. And you did not used to be like this. You know what I mean, >> dude? And I feel like it's on us. Like I think at the end of the day, >> let's do better. >> It it's on the individual to be like, I don't want to do this anymore. Like I just don't want to have a Instagram account where I feel bad where I log in and see people that are driving Lambos and I'm, you know, I'm driving my >> my 97 Corolla. Oh, >> you have this? >> No. I wish. I was gonna say >> I honestly that would be my next car. >> That's saying that's my Emacs car, right? That's my thing pad. That's the thing pad of cars. >> I don't want computers in my cars. You know what I'm saying? But >> no, it makes it harder to repair. You go to the repair shop now and like they're like, "Oh, well now it's going to cost an extra this, that, and the other because we can't just buy a part and just put it in." You know? Well, we were talking about this on the on the IRC channel just probably yesterday, but like I think people in this world are very they're much >> inclined towards that self-reliant um first principle. >> Yeah. Like first principles type of like living, right? So like the joke is, "Oh, I'm going to just go buy a farm when this is all done." And uh you know, you know what I'm saying? Like >> Yeah. My last video will be stop using computers and you'll see me in a Luke Smith style exactly like uh blazer like with an Orthodox church like outfit and I'll say >> so you know open the video with like something like you know wisdom words and say all right so guys today we're going to do a quick video on how to delete your computer. So, the first thing you're going to want to do is pseudo rmrf slash. And then you're not going to be able to hear this video because it's going to be on the computer hopefully that you're watching it on. But at that point in time, you're going to move to an open source and free free farm. And then you're going to have to get some chickens, get an organic vegetable garden. You're going to need a diesel tank underneath to in case the power goes out so you can be off- grid. >> You're going to probably want to do, you know, I'm already have like the whole script written, but I just can't do it yet because I I I want to get to 100,000 subscribers so I get that plaque so I can give that to myself. voice. Let's get him there. There you go. >> Yeah. So, I'm going to keep making content until I get there and then give the plaque to my son as a gift and then boom, >> stop using computers. >> Yeah. Do you think that's the solution? Cuz like I I do think that there are obviously it's kind of like the phone argument, right? Like phones suck, but at the same time, there are like benefits to life with them, right? So, like is there is there like a fine balance or is it just like I'm shutting off? I'm going to go touch grass eternally. I'm gonna like I'm gonna join the Orthodox church. I'm I I suggest I suggest Catholicism, but we'll get into that later. >> We'll get into that. But yeah, >> the Vim vers Emacs, the Orthodox vers Catholic, like this is crazy layers to this. >> That's the real debate is Catholicism versus Orthodoxy. But >> that's one that one's going to be on Rumble or Patreon. Like we can't talk about that on YouTube, but I'm >> kidding. Yeah. But but you know what? Do you know what I'm saying? Like is that the solution or is it is it like use this technology to actually better humankind? Right. >> Well, no, cuz Yeah, like you said, I mean, so the phone thing, let's use that as an example. >> Yeah. >> Um I I have a flip phone, right? So it's like it's it's for me it's like I use the phone because if I go somewhere, I I need to be contacted like for emergencies, right? So if my wife is wants to call me and tell me something's wrong, like I pick up the phone and say, "Hello, what's wrong?" You know that I think there's something wrong when somebody calls me. >> Yeah. >> You know what I'm saying? Y >> otherwise like I'm outside, I'm touching grass for my little bit of time while I'm doing that. I don't want to be bothered or distracted by, as you said, the Lamborghinis, the Ender Tates of the world on Instagram. I purposely like withdraw consent from all that stuff because I don't I just don't use any of that stuff. So like when somebody tells me, "Oh, this happened, a crazy thing happened about Trump or Twitter." I'm like, >> I don't know what you're talking about, man. And it just feels good to say that because like I really don't know what they're what they're talking about. >> Yeah. But um but back to the technology aspect, I don't want my microwave to have like a Wi-Fi on it. I don't need like some app to control my air fryer. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> And then people are developing stuff like smart machine like IoT devices like a I I think that's stuff I don't want. You know what I mean? But then but to an extent I have a job. I use a computer for work. It's like you kind of I don't know. Computers are wonderful things. We just I think have allowed too many I think we've allowed too much you know we as consumers have allowed too many you know bad bad things to come to come into the computer I guess right so it's like >> I would blame I would blame myself and my fellow consumers of of the products right so that's why I'm using Linux and that's why I don't I don't I just don't pay I withdraw consent from you know Microsoft and Google and all these I mean obviously I have Discord and I do I don't I get paid by Google because YouTube is is owned by Google and Google puts ads into my videos so they send me a a paycheck or whatever. So, it's kind of hypocritical to say that, but yeah, you see where I'm going with this? >> 100%. I'm I'm right there with you because I do feel like I think Linux was kind of that first that's that first almost that first step for a lot of people is that like they're voting with their >> dollar. >> Well, their dollar Yeah. But like, you know, I'm going to go the the full open-source free software route. And they start to see like how that world is actually better in a lot of ways. you you do like you're surrounded by people that are pursuing excellence I feel like in this world and I feel like that is not something that's commonly found in the dayto-day. I said to my girlfriend when I was like yeah I'm going to hop on this call with Tony like I don't know where else I would meet people like Tony other than YouTube. Like I just you know what I'm saying? Like I don't know where I would find these people in my day-to-day type of thing. So >> yeah, that's that's the hard part is you go in in real life, you have hobbies and stuff. You're going to meet people that are interested in that those hobbies. So for example, if you go to a rock climbing gym, you're going to meet people that are like into rock climbing and maybe adjacent stuff, too. But where do you find somebody who has a Emacs literate config like an Emac meetup? Like what are we talking about, you know? >> Yeah. Like and and I'm not going to go to an Emac meet am I going to go to an Emac meetup to be honest with you? >> I went to a programming meetup. It was actually pretty cool. But I I mean >> was it was it an Emacs meetup though or was it a program? It was it was a holistic programming meetup and there was actually some like cuz there's in my city we have a gamedev um >> uh company I guess and there were some of the guys that came they were like rock stars man it was actually kind of it was interesting to >> Well that's that then maybe that's what we should be doing is instead of like cuz you're right I use YouTube as a social med I don't have social media but YouTube is my social media so I meet people like you I meet people like Link Carzu and you know I actually got to meet Dro Tube through YouTube which is kind of crazy because I literally would watch his his all his stuff and like >> and now I get to meet him and I'm like was Chris crazy. >> But um you meet people like that. I met Darth, the Linux Renaissance guy. Yeah. >> And he he he's just such an awesome individual. Um so you meet these people that are like-minded just like you just like you're talking about. And >> yeah. Yeah. I can't meet these people like at my local gym, you know, but but I think there's compartmentalization here going on because I'm sure you've met a lot of individuals at your Catholic church that are also like spectacular people to be around, right? they feel like different than meeting somebody at let's say a club or a nightclub or what have you, right? >> You know what I'm going to say though is I think that because you are coming at it from a place of like first principles, I think that I think you're coming at it from a deeper point of connection than you would if you're like, you know, you go to the gym and you're like, I can bench 225. Hey, this guy can bench 235. Like, let's be friends. And, you know, like that sort of thing. like that sort of friendship is so much more shallow than somebody that's going to build it on a principle. You know what I'm saying? And I think that that's kind of where it's interesting to me that this kind of like I don't want to say fasttracks a friendship or relationship because you you you're coming at it from the same point of oh computers suck nowadays. I also agree computers suck nowadays, but like what's the solution type of thing like we're talking about like >> much bigger things right off the bat than you would be with somebody that's like >> That's true. That's true. And there's also some weird parasocial component to it because before you knew who I was, I knew quite a bit about you because of how many videos you had made. >> And so we didn't have to do that foreplay of oh like what's your favorite dro or like oh like do you like Linux? you know, like we just dropped straight into >> and then you joined that call with Link and then we were just 2v1ing him immediately. I'm like, okay, this guy's my ally. So, we already had like all that stuff taken care of. You know what I mean? So, it's like, >> yeah, >> you can't at a party if I walk up to some guy like and I have to ask him, okay, so let's see, are you a Mac guy, Windows guy? They're like, what are you talking about, man? Mac, Windows, oh, for computers? Like, oh, I've got a I've got a MacBook. Yeah, why? You know, it's like that's a whole different, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Tony does real good at parties. >> Exactly. Exactly. But no, um I I do like to sit down with folks and play board games and stuff, but again, and I like these people, but you get you got to admit the truth out there is that like you get into this world of board games of of nerdy stuff, and you get into the problem of quickly that you realize is that these places, they don't enforce the deodorant rule, which I think that's my rules. Like, you got to have you got to wear deodorant to come over to my house, you know, as a male. And and and it's it's it's it's a big issue. And I used to play Smash Bros. And I used to go to these Smash tournaments and the first thing that I would notice is I'd walk in and it would smell like a a seventh grade like locker room, you know, and I'm like, "Guys, we're better than this. We need to do better as a community." Like, "Do we have to hand out deodorant at the doors?" You know, >> agree. >> But you see what I'm saying or no? >> A little bit. Yeah. Like it I I feel like I feel like you come at these these these relationships are built on like just something that's stronger than shared interest. I think that that's kind of the the big thing. It's almost based on philosophy, I would say. >> Yeah. >> So, like when I'm when I'm talking to people in my IRC channel, for example, like I feel like I'm talking to myself a lot of the time because like these people have come to the same conclusions that I have over over, you know, the years of being like >> modern computing sucks, like >> where else can I look? What else can I do? How can I like >> avoid the downfall, you know, like how can I and and that sort of thing. It it it raises this almost like philosophical underpinning and and shared ground that you both walk on. It's kind of it's very interesting to me like >> and you can't find that like in real life, right? >> Never, right? Like I think the only place and I mean I think that for example, you go to a church and you you meet somebody there like you're coming at it from again a philosophical point of >> acceptance agreement. Yeah. First principles. >> There's there is that shared ground that you're on, right? The issue is that I think a lot of the time in the modern world like relationships are almost transactional, right? Like >> 100% between family members. >> Yeah. Like what can I get out of this guy? What's my inheritance when this guy died? No. Like you know what I'm saying? Like like it >> for me I think that >> the the the relationship is just like it's just built on something that's like much higher up already. I don't know how I don't know how else to convey it. you're starting at like basically five years of work has already been done for you because the for the IRC channel for example, you've already filtered down these people because first of all they have to know how to use IRC, right? >> So even knowing that that's that's that's going to stop the trolls from coming in. >> Yeah. >> Because the trolls are going to come in and say, "Well, isn't X11 better than than Whandland?" Or like, "What about system D and can I use Reddit?" We don't I don't I mean those are great topics and I I'll discuss them with you. But if you're just going to come at it, you know, with with bad faith to just say like and there's repeat talking points that you heard on Reddit, Reddit or whatever. Like if somebody actually tells me what they don't like about system D and they can articulate it correctly and they're like okay and I I'll agree with them. I'll say okay for your case S6 is better or maybe run it is better. Right? it. You know, you get those trolls that come in 99% of the time they just say, you know, Wayland is is is the is the future and X11 is is bloated and all this crap. And then, of course, you get the politics aspect, too, because you got people on telling trying to inject politics into the software and they're telling you, oh, but that's so and so is like a is a is a right-winger and he's but he's using the software or he or so and so made that and he's like a leftwinger and he you shouldn't be using software because of that. I'm like, >> it's software though, right? I mean, why are we why do we care about >> Yeah, you have to get above it. And I think that's why I did the IRC channel is cuz I was like, I don't want to do a Discord channel where, you know, like is I don't want to I don't want to like bad talk people, but like the lowest common denominator that's accessible, too. Right. >> Right. >> Oh, I would say that's the YouTube comment section. >> Honestly, man, I get some really good comments. >> Your comments are based and mine are too actually. I get pretty good comments, too. But you ever open up like the YouTube comment section and you just see like from somebody else's channel, you're like, "What is what is going on here?" It's like >> unfiltered. I love it though. As a non-censorship guy, I love the fact that they don't like on Reddit, you only see the thing that's upvoted the most, right? And they purposely like hide things from you. Like you have to go click uh view all. You have to like sort it into a way to see like the best comments. >> Um you can't see like they don't you're going to see what they want you to see. I think for some reason that's why I don't like Reddit. It's like a two echo chambery of a place. >> It's very curated. I would definitely agree with you. So, >> yeah. >> But yeah, how are you for time by the way? Because I >> pretty good. I mean, like 30 30 minutes or so. I mean, like you mentioned. >> Yeah. I'm just checking if there's anything else that I wanted to mention, but yeah. No, it is kind of I don't know how to convey it cuz like it it's kind of this new it's this thought that's kind of entered my mind recently. It's like is it because you're coming at a uh you know like a a human relationship from just a a higher place of I I don't want to say consciousness or something like that but like you know what I'm saying like you're coming at it from a shared understanding I suppose. I don't know. >> Yeah. Well, there's a lot of things that you and I have in common that I knew that you I knew about before like because your life is pretty public like you've got your blog and you've got um your YouTube channel and but even if you didn't have that stuff and I met you and I got to know you a little bit without you have telling me those things I probably would have been able to intuit it this guy probably like is a you know kind of into this that and the other and I could probably guess that stuff about you and I think that there's certain I don't know if you've ever experienced this but have you ever like met somebody one in a thousand and you meet them and you're like this guy actually Maybe, you know, maybe he's a Nixxos user in in real life. You know what I mean? Or something like that. You know what I mean? >> No. >> Yeah. Never. It's never happened. No, I'm serious. That's why I asked that because it's never happened. But but I I'll tell you something. There's a story. I was in a coffee shop sitting next to a guy and he was using like Ubuntu or something, right? And I like >> turn over to him and I look at him. I'm like, "Hey, like Linux like that." And it was like the saddest interaction cuz like I don't think he even knew he was running >> really. >> It was so sad because I was like hey like this guy could be my friend and it was just like >> who is this idiot that's you know what I'm talking about. So it was pretty funny. >> Did you do you have any of your family members on Linux like your mom or your grand your grandparents or anything like that? >> So I uh I moved my mom to Fedora. She she's running Fedora at home um because all she does is email and >> check email on the browser, right? >> And uh she had Windows on it and was hating her life and I was like, "Here we go. I will fix your computer for you." >> There you go. >> Uh I my brother actually just recently uh is running Ubuntu on a on a ThinkPad T480 I gave him. >> Oh, okay. >> So he's he's starting down the I it's kind of >> So you are an evangelist in some small way. a little bit. >> You want to help people. You want to help people. >> I I think that honestly, man, like I think at the end of the day, like you want what's best for people even though they don't know what it is, >> I suppose. Like I think that that's kind of the thing is like >> um >> I could not be a loving individual >> and tell you to run Windows 11. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. >> I can't co-sign that. >> You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah. And yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. I know exactly what you're saying. And and I it's tough to debug things on Windows 11 computers because I look at it I'm like I don't want to see another Candy Crush ad. I don't want to see this co-pilot thing. Like I don't know. I'm just like dude de I debloat this debloat this you know. >> Yeah. >> But um I put my grandma on mint uh because she had lost like thousands of dollars to like um some scammers out of Kolkata with the you know PayPal. >> Yeah. >> Uh Walmart stuff. I don't know if you're familiar with that stuff. >> Not Yeah. Basically, they use a program called Anyesk to like have her and they call her and they tell her and convince her that like she's >> a remote control like a remote desktop. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I put her on Mint and for whatever reason, ever since that happened, like it doesn't they whenever they call her, they just can't get it to work on it, I guess. So, I'm think we're fine for now. But, uh yeah, I was just like, you know what? Let's put you on Mint for now and then I'll just change all your icons and I'll change your like your theme to make it look like you're back on Windows and you won't even notice. And she didn't even notice. She just uses her browser to check her email. She plays solitire. >> Yep. >> You know, so >> and honestly, man, like I I think that that's the thing is that you come to realize that like 90% of people that use a computer use it as a bootloader. >> Bootloader for Google Chrome. >> Yeah. >> So, we just need to get them off of Google Chrome and onto the Google Chromium and then we'll be >> But a lot of people don't care. >> What's that? >> A lot of people don't care that they're getting spied on, by the way. Do you think that what's what's your thoughts on that? You ever meet somebody in real life that like kind of defends and argues for the pirates the spying the spying and all that stuff? >> Just so weird. >> I I have Yes. I have people I have met people that are like I have bigger fish to fry than like my privacy or uh you know >> or like they ever ask you well if you're not doing anything illegal like why do you care about privacy? >> I have had like what makes you think I'm not doing anything illegal? You know I'm just kidding. I have had that as well and I think that I think the answer to those people is like >> yeah at the moment you're not but at the same time like you know what I mean like >> who decides what's legal who determines that >> that could be that could be redefined tomorrow and yeah and your previous activity therefore could be you know deemed not suitable >> not memory safe and therefore you're not allowed to use C23 sorry >> yeah exactly so like even the fact that there is a you know like an Intel level back door into the CPU of essentially every computer today. >> Like even that doesn't sit well with me, right? So >> Alex Karp is all of my information and I can't stop anything from that. You know what I mean? Like that's so sad. >> But I got to I got to figure out a way to like Libre boot or something maybe. I don't know. We got to go full flex. But then I can't you Okay. I can't There's going to be no YouTube channel. >> That's >> There's so many If you want to be go full You got to go full product, full send. There's no YouTube channel. >> Yeah, I was going to say BSD. How was that? Because BSD is kind of that that is effectively the final boss. I would >> the final boss if you would call it that. Yeah, >> I would say that going to a BSD is is kind of saying like I am going to go touch grass and this is going to be you know what I'm saying? >> BSD is pretty much the exit of a of you're withdrawing consent fully. But then also but also you're why not just take the next step >> and just put your computer in >> No, no, just take the next step and just put your computer in the dumpster. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Just I I don't know. Have you ever been like have you ever done a week of no computing? >> Like when's the last time you honestly went a week without a computer or smartphone? >> Oh, when I injured myself in 2013, I want to say I was in the hospital and but I mean still I had the smartphone so I guess not even sadly. You know what? You know what? Oh, actually I did a I I was on a cruise in 2014 and it was there was no internet and for two weeks I did not have any internet access. I had no phone, no computer, nothing. And to be honest with you, dude, I got off that vacation and I felt like I was Superman. I had >> Did you feel detoxed? >> I had so many ideas. I had so many like so many things I was going to do. And then I open up the smartphone and it was all gone. >> Yeah. >> And I honestly man I do think back to that moment >> very frequently and I'm like maybe there is something there. Maybe there is. >> Yeah. I think I think like it's a good idea to every once in a while take a day if you can. Like if you don't have a job that's connecting you to a computer or even just make a limit saying okay I'm only going to do things for my job. I'm not going to open up YouTube. I'm not going to open up anything extraneous to my job. And then I'm as soon as I log it off, I'm done with my computer. I'm done with my phone. And then or whatever. Or then take the whole weekend and just say no technology for the whole weekend. Just it feels so good to just >> Sunday. Every Sunday. >> Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Okay. That's true. That's true. >> How's that feel then? How's that work out for you? >> I think I think it's needed, man. I think that there's just so much I I feel like there's just so much chatter that is not my own that is that's injected into me via the internet. So I need I need that like s there's no other way to have silence nowadays but completely logging off and >> and just saying I'm not >> exactly like I think that there is no other way to get that >> internal silence >> nowadays. And I think honestly, man, I would say that 95% of people never experience that. And >> Oh, no. I If you ever go into a grocery store nowadays and you see like I don't have a phone, a smartphone or whatever, so I just go in there and all I see are people doing this. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> And I I feel like superhuman cuz I can see everything around me and nobody can see me. You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah. >> So I'm like I could walk in front of people, they won't even notice and they're like, "Oh, I'm sorry." I'm like, "Oh, it's okay." Just like I'm like, "No, no problem." It's crazy. Like like literally like next time anybody is watching this video, go to the supermarket, go to the bank and just don't bring your phone and just look around and just observe and and like it's just everyone's just going to be like, you know, you know what I'm saying? And like, oh, I'm sorry about that. It's like they're glued to it, dude. It's crazy. >> Yeah. And I mean, I I find it super sad that the average person doesn't get that anymore, right? Like >> and only 15, 20 years ago, like that would have been the average. >> That's the gold standard. >> It would have been the norm, right? like you you know like I'm not contactable all hours of the day type of thing, you know, like people actually have to pick up the phone and call me type of thing. And >> yeah, >> I don't know, man. I I feel like going back to that way of life is >> they're certainly beneficial. >> It's sort of like somebody had asked on your IRC kind of channel, >> what do I what mobile client for IRC do you guys suggest? And I was just like, what you do? You don't want to be you on an IRC on your you don't want a mobile client. Uh, you want to be IRC like when you're on your computer and then when you're not on your computer, you don't want to be talking to people online. >> Like go talk to your kids. Go talk to your wife. If you don't have a wife or kids, go get a wife and then go have kids, you know, and then talk to them. You know what I mean? >> This is this is the video we got to send people to. No, but >> yeah, this is >> I was >> this is the next chapter, I guess. Yeah, we could dive right into this. >> The only issue that I have with IRC before we touch on that is is that people don't realize that it's not like Discord. So like you need to idle on it. You actually have to like set up a bouncer so that you can you can always be present on it so you can you can see when you go back to your computer you can actually see the chats cuz everybody like hops in there and they say hi and they don't get a reply in 5 minutes and they hop out and it's like well that's not how you use IRC. IRC has classically been this thing that you're always connected to on your machine. >> You step away you know you go AFK as the uh as the kids would say. Actually, that's that's more of adult thing, I would say. AFK is more like >> I suppose. Yeah. Kids don't get to go AFK, I suppose. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. Good point. >> Well, you have you have a son, so like how are you going to deal with technology with your son? That's that is a good question, I would say. >> Yeah. That's the thing is I've already started him on C. So, his first language was assembly and then bas I'm doing we're going alphabetical order. So, assembly and then I guess basic and then C. >> Yeah. >> So, I guess next would have to be D and then >> or ELISP I guess be E, right? You're going to do skip C++ >> because it's one letter we're doing. We have to pick one language per letter. >> Gotcha. Okay. >> I'm picking the best one per. So if you go A through Z, you get like assembly basic C and then I guess for E it would be Elisp, right? D for D. >> E- list works. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And then I guess for F forran, you go down that route, you know. But no, everything's uh for him so far he no technology, but he's only seven months old, you know what I mean? I mean he's >> uh he's he has technology. He's got little toys that, you know, light up and stuff and he's got little toys like that. But, um, as I I don't really I'm not 100% like I don't believe 100% that like all screens are evil. So, like I think there's a aspect of it where it's like what's on the screen like what do you you know? So, if you have like somebody watching like for example, you probably watched TV as a kid. I don't know if you >> I did >> back. So if you if you watched a TV show, it'd be like an hour long thing, maybe like a Blues Clues or something like that where you had to start and then the end and like you had to kind of pay attention the whole time. >> Yeah. >> But nowadays, these people are watching these 10-second TikTok reels and like it's the next one, the next one, the next one. I think their brains are literally getting like >> I don't know, attention's just Yeah. cooked, if you will. Yeah. >> So, as long So, I I don't know. I I'm not sure 100% where we're going to go with it. Um, as far as a phone, like I pretty much don't want to give him a phone until he's like in middle school or high school and then the phone will only act as a purpose. It be like a flip phone, dumb phone, just so I can call him and so when I or he can call me for an emergency. But I don't know. I also don't want him to be like the only person, you know, in his entire school with like a without a phone and then everyone else is making fun of him because he's like his dad is like a boomer or whatever. Or not boomer, but like, you know, boomer in the woods. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Or whatever. But it's like I don't know. It's a complicated question, I guess. So, >> um, >> at that point in time, it's going to be so different, you know, cuz everyone's going to not only have a phone, but they'll have like that chip in their brain and everything. And he's opting out of that for sure. So, >> I would say you should opt out of that. Yeah. If if you have the choice. So, >> yeah. But what about you with technology with the kids? Do you do you >> She's older than your son. So she's like we didn't know screens until she was like I mean we went on a we went on a uh overseas flight so that was probably like the first time that she got like a screen >> and we use it strategically so like I feel bad about doing this sometimes but like you're in a restaurant and like she's you know like wanting to it's it's almost bedtime but you got to stretch it. you give her, you know, like the the wiggles video or something and like chill her out for another another 10 minutes, 20 minutes type of thing. But I'm with you that we didn't really >> It was definitely a thing that like we were very conscious of and like didn't want to start her on it until like 16 18 months type of thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like I think this there's actually studies that even up to two years you don't really want your kid in front of a screen. And I think it has to do >> with the >> well, first of all, I think that there's a massive rate of ADHD >> in in children. And I don't think that it's related to anything else besides screen use. Like I actually think screen use >> and ADHD is essentially a correlative >> type of thing, right? So I see that myself, man. Like I think that even like if there's a day where I'm being an idiot on my phone, I don't have the attention span. It's like I need to like like I need to like detox from it to be able to have that attention span again. So there has to be something there. I would say um >> the phone thing is like yeah I would never really want having a phone but yeah I think I think you become the weird kid then like you become the >> Yeah. But there's solutions to that nowadays. A lot of schools are actually like kind of I don't know about because you live in the Communist Party of Canada so I don't actually know if uh sorry the People's Republic of Canada. I don't actually know. But um we'll get into that. We'll get we'll get we'll edit that out or whatever. We'll get into it later. But um so you live in Canada, so I don't know. But here there's some schools that are opening up where there's policies where it says like we're doing a no phone policy where like you can bring a phone to school, but you got to like check it into a locker or something like that and so that you can't have the phone in class and like you can't have it at lunch and stuff. I I don't know how that's work going to work out, but it's basically to solve that problem of where you don't have to worry that you're the only parent that because a lot of parents don't want their kids to have a phone. Yeah, >> I think a lot of parents just don't say that. I don't know. But um and again, it's not even just the phone. It's more like if they have a smartphone, they have immediately access to, >> you know, these Instagram accounts. And this is where you're talking about this uh the unalive ringing rate. I don't know how to say the word without getting the YouTube video. Yeah. >> So that's going up in kids and like that's you're seeing the correlation because of these social media apps and their distortion of their own perception and their distortion of reality based on the filtering of these images showing other people doing like you said earlier the Lamborghinis and stuff like they probably rented for that for the video >> and it's just unhealthy stuff, you know. So you don't want that. I don't think you want that around kids. >> I I feel like the access to the internet should be like I almost do feel like the access to the internet should be like on a communal computer in the household type of thing. Like I don't really want somebody like the fact that you can run off to your your bedroom with your, you know, your screen into the worldwide web is to me not the best thing even for somebody an adult, right? >> Even me. Even Even me. Yeah. Even adults like can waste so much time on a computer if if the door's closed, you know? You're just like, "Okay, let's read the entire Rust language manual. Okay, let's have on another monitor. Let's read the Zig documentation. Let's watch both at the same time." >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Let's open another video. You know, it's like too much dopamine at one point in time. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. 100%. And I feel like that even even in and of itself, like we as adults, like probably shouldn't be doing it. So, >> as a child, like I don't know, man. It's it'll be obviously it's my daughter's only three, so she's he's got >> We'll see where we're going. That's what I'm saying. We'll see where we go where it goes with this, right? Because >> I mean it's a new generation, right? So, we'll see what happens. But when I grew up, I I played a lot of Final Fantasy 7 and Pokemon Blue version. So, I learned a lot of English from those games because my brothers had like I basically was really young when I was playing them and my teachers told my parents that I had like a high reading capability. And my theory is that it's because I played those games so much that I was like reading the text and having to read all the information and say, "Okay, does this piece of armor like is it actually an upgrade for for this character, you know, for the Final Fantasy side of things at least?" And like, okay, like, you know, is this better? Like, I have to do some calculations here. like I'm four or five years old and I'm trying to figure out like, you know, but I'm reading so much English. I'm reading the whole story, the quests and and I think that actually helped me. And so I don't know like about the the games nowadays, like the Robloxes of the world. Like I don't think that's actually what they're doing now. But >> um if I could get my son to play like um because I have one of those old school Yeah. Runescape, if you will. Yeah. I >> I have an old school emulator thing machine that looks like a Game Boy. I can just give him that and he could play Pokemon or whatever. I'm totally fine with him like wasting an hour on that and like you know as long as I think that he's in some way like learning some English at least and like messing around with and having fun like I want him to have fun you know so we'll play games with dad you know I'm with you I'm with you on that I feel like I feel like games nowadays too though are like they're kind of like movies nowadays in that there's no there's no storyline to them they're very like dopamernic >> hits you know like they're they're just hits into your arm type of thing whereas I feel like games when we were growing up were those like grinds like talk about grinds like Runescape man like learn how to type buying GF like all that sort of thing right like >> like that's >> you know what I'm saying like there's there was there were things to learn on these games right so that that joke time traveled a little bit that's 2027 but Yeah. No, definitely. Like, yeah. And and especially like in my teenage years when I was playing Dodo a lot, I had to learn how to type to like talk trash between last hits. So, like somebody would say something, I had to like get my typing speed really fast between last hits. And I think that's what's made me so fast at typing, you know? >> I remember Yeah. When I when I used to game, I remember typing on a mechanical keyboard and somebody like was like, "Well, man, you can type fast." And I was like, "Yeah, I can." >> Yeah. Yeah, like it's kind of a crazy thing like everybody at work is like blown away by my type speed. I'm like it's not that it's not that I'm nothing compared to these people. I know that post their record is online and stuff, but yeah. >> Yeah, 100%. So I I'm just Do you have anything else you wanted to to touch on? But I think I hit all of my my points. >> I was going to ask you, man, like how did you get into we briefly I guess like you mentioned before to me that you started on Fedora. Is that correct? No. >> Or did you start on >> Manaro? I started with Arch. I busted that. So, it's a it's it's a bit of a long story, but I started with I built a computer in 2016 and I was like that was the first computer I ever built. So, >> like started a little bit late. >> 2016 i5 4690K. >> No, i7 uh 6770K or 670K. >> 6700 K I want to say. >> Okay. 16 gigs of RAM. >> DDR4. >> Yes. And uh uh 180, not a not a what's the uh >> 10 a 1080. >> 1080. Sorry. >> 1080. >> GTX 1080. >> 1070. Sorry. 1070, not a 1070. >> I was not I was not running a 1080. My goodness. 1070. >> Yeah, that would be like 800 bucks at the time, I think. >> So I I started with Windows and I was like, "This sucks." And within 6 months threw Arch Linux on that thing. uh borked my computer. >> Arch minimal or or arch minimal was the first dro >> you went straight from Windows Windows 10 to Arch to just Arch. >> Arch was the first dro I installed on that machine. >> How did you did you go on YouTube and find like search like best Linu? There was like two popped up there was like two videos at the time of like how to install Arch Linux and I got it running over a weekend of not sleeping and uh I borked the machine probably about a week later. My my X11 my you know my my X11 was just not working and I had a black screen but you could obviously have recovered from there but I obviously did not know how to. So I reinstalled and then Mangaro came along because that was the the easy install. Um >> and I used Mangaro for a couple years. Went back to Arch >> installed Arch Linux. Your first dro Arch Linux for Dro. Uh and then I moved over to Endeavor when that was a thing because it was kind of the minimal Arch install. And uh and then Fedora for about a year and then Nyx as of about 6 months ago. And I don't really see myself switching away from >> geek. So, and and then geeks eventually maybe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't know though cuz there's so much there's so much nicities with Nicks that I don't want to learn in from a different standpoint. You know what I mean? >> That's my thought as well is I feel like there's more investment in the NYX world. Like I think that like it it was a real question for me of like geeks versus nicks. And the I think the selling point was that there's just a much larger community. Like there's just there's more places to go >> when you have a problem. Um, >> that actually is a good point. If there's a Since there is such a large community in nicks, you should go to geeks. I'm just kidding. No, I'm just messing. I'm messing. That's cool, man. That's crazy that you went from Windows 10 to Arch. Minimal straight up. That's awesome. >> Yeah, it was it was a a very very large learning curve. We'll put it that way. But yeah. >> Yeah. All right, man. Well, uh I was happy to sit down with you and looking forward to uh next time we do this, we got to do like a maybe like a special episode where we kind of talk uh a little bit more uncensored. You know what I'm saying? >> Oh, yeah. Maybe we'll uh put it on our Patreons >> or something, dude. Yeah. Get into get into something a little bit non techreated, if you will. You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah, we touched on a little bit, but yeah, like we could we could definitely go >> That's exactly right. We touched on a little bit, but you can't go farther. You know what I mean? >> Merry Christmas to you, though. And uh >> Yeah, man. Merry Christmas. right back at you. >> Yeah, let's uh let's do this again in the in the very well in 2028, right? So, >> 100% 100%. 2028, we got to get it going. >> Yeah, let's do it. >> All right, man. >> Cheers. >> Have a good one. >> Thanks for chatting, man. >> Yeah, you too. >> I'll just literally do a quick warm up while he's uh while he's like uh talking to me. I'm like just doing a warm-up set, you know, and >> actually the mic works pretty good when you're far away, too. So, >> really? >> Yeah, it works. >> That's good to hear. That's good to hear. But yeah, I I have a home gym because, you know, it's better that way. I feel >> just leave the light on like that. That looks perfect. It's a perfect shot. >> Okay, we'll leave the light on. >> That looks amazing. >> Let's see. >> Is there anything damning back there? >> No, I don't think so. I think you're >> good. Cool. >> Just the just the woman's bar instead of the instead of >> I do have How do you know about that? >> I I lift. I used to lift. I used to lift. >> I was going to say you're You were just shoot How do you know there's a woman's bar there? >> I know things. Cuz that's an Ohio Power Bar and then the one above it is my wife's >> is the woman's bar. Yeah. >> Yeah. Oh, right on, man. Do you have a home gym or do you just kind of like >> I have like I have like bumper plates. I would love to get a setup like that. That's perfect. Like that would be Yeah, I have just like the uh the I have the bar. I have some bumper plates for doing deadlifts and I have I have a spin bike and a pull-up bar. >> You have a spin bike? So, okay. Okay. So, I have a I have a I have an overclocked bike. You can't see it, but I'll show you. I have that bike right there. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, I have a bike and I like to I do a lot of climbing. So, see if you can see that. If I go like that, you can see there's a little hangboard right up there. >> Nice. That's >> So, I just got like >> Yeah. But, ever since I've had the little one six months ago, >> Yeah. I haven't really lifted weights that much because he's all my free time goes into like writing that window manager, creating YouTube content, working, you know, on my Emacs config. >> Yeah. Spending time with your son. Like what? >> No, that's not even in the cards. Yeah. That's not even a possibility. You know what I mean? That's bloated if you will. >> I'm just going to go close my door. I'll be right back. And then uh >> do your thing. >> I'll start OBS. I'll start OBS. >> I'm recording even right now. So, you got my door. Thank you. There you go. I don't have to do >> audio. I disabled uh desktop audio. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. And do the mono thing otherwise you'll be left ear sensitive like like me. >> Let me see. >> That's that's what the issue was is I didn't put it on mono, >> right? >> And yeah. Oh my left ear. Well, yeah. Need to record mono. Idiot Josh. Jeez. We're going to get kicked off Jity. But all right, deleted that. Let me open that with PC man to see what's going on there. I've got so much [ __ ] open, dude. I found a memory leak in my my window manager. >> No way. >> Yeah. >> Is it ox wm or oxm? >> Both. >> Okay. >> Both works. Actually, the the the the logo is an ox. >> Yeah, >> because it's that's how you say it, but then it's ox. I say ox, but >> yeah, >> it's oxidized because it's written in rust or whatever, but I don't I don't care about that. That's funny, though. Okay, let's see. Walls, Tony, by the way. Tutorials. Okay, I think that's going to go into my BSD folder. Dude, BSD hype, bro. You said this dude, your your comment blew up. >> I did see that. I was like, "Holy, it's one of the best best like ratios I've ever gotten on a comment." >> Yeah, go see. >> We'll chat about that, too. I have I have notes on all this, dude. >> It sounds pretty good, actually. The recording sounds pretty good on my end, so we'll just have two backups because we're software engineers. >> Absolutely.

Collab call with @tony-btw for Christmas! We discuss all things free, open source, and philosophical. Come pour an eggnog and listen to our chat Come join us on IRC or XMPP: https://joshblais.com/community libera.chat - #technicalrenaissance YouTube channel: @tony-btw