37signals is moving to Omarchy – REWORK

Welcome to Rework, a podcast by 37 Signals about the better way to work and run your business. I'm Kimberly Rhodess from the 37 Signals team. Today joined by David Heinmire Hansen, 37 Signals co-founder and CTO. If you've been following David on any of his social media channels, you've seen over the last year or so that he has switched from Apple products to a framework laptop. He's now on Linux and has been working on a new project called Omari to bring all of these things together. We're here to talk about it today. David, I'm going to open it up to you. Why don't you give us kind of a highle overview about what all these things are that we've been doing and then want to dive into an announcement you made internally at 37 Signals about how we're going to be moving forward. >> Certainly. So I switched to Linux about 18 months ago and the first port of call when I switched to Linux was Ubuntu. That is the most popular Linux distribution out there. It's been maintained for many years by a company called Canonicle. It's really nice. I found that that Ubuntu default wasn't really set up for developers. It didn't have all the tooling. It didn't have all the keyboard affordances that I wanted. So I quite quickly built something called Amocube which was kind of a remix of Ubuntu and I ran that for about a year and then just a few months ago I decided to try another adventure into Linux land and experiment with this combination of Arch Linux which is the distribution kind of like Iuntu and then this window managers it's called Hyperland that sits on top of Arch and drives all the windows and how everything works together. The big difference is that Arch is incredibly bare bones. When you get it out of the box, it has basically nothing. You have to run terminal commands to even set up your Wi-Fi. You have to install everything from scratch, select each individual package. And I initially thought, you know what, that's not what I want. I'm trying to get the opposite. I'm trying to get my ideal environment up and running in 10 minutes or less. But then I started scratching a little bit of the surface and I started realizing, do you know what? There's an advantage here to the fact that Arch gives you nothing in that I can do whatever I want. I am no longer bound by the choices Canonicle made for Buntu. I can put everything together just perfectly right. And that is the combination of factors that then led to Umachi. And omachi is Arch Linux plus Hyperland plus my Omicazi opinions, choices, configurations, all put into one single installed script and very soon a full installation device ISO that you can just run and get up and uh going. And I've been running this for a couple months and I've basically been obsessed, completely obsessed with designing the perfect development and really computing environment. For me, first and foremost, I want my computer to be perfect. Not just like sort of kind of okay, but perfect. And then I realized just like I did with Rails that by the time I'm done turning something like Arch and Hyperland into the ideal setup for me, there's a bunch of other people who are just like me who would very much love to be up and running with a super productive, beautiful system in 10 minutes or less. So why don't we do just like I did with Rails, just like I did with CCube. put all this stuff into a box, get more people excited about it, get more people to help out and build something great together. And that's what has been doing over the past couple of months. It's really sparked an enormous amount of interest from a bunch of people who didn't necessarily think that they were going to run Linux, which is exactly where I was 18 months ago, not thinking Linux was a thing that I was going to do. That was something for a different kind of nerd. And I realized, you know what? No, Linux is basically for all nerds. They just don't necessarily know it yet. They just need a compelling package that lowers the barrier of entry while gives some gives them something that is uniquely different. And what I've come to realize is that the work I put into making Ubuntu easier to use for developers at the first time, it was good. I I liked it. I ran it for over a year. I still think it's a wonderful package, but it was quite similar in a lot of ways to what you would be able to get out of a Windows box or a Mac box. Um is very different. And the key reason it's very different is that it runs Hyperland, which is this thing called a tiling window manager. Most desktop operating systems, you drag your little windows around with a mouse, and if you need to see something underneath another window, you drag it over here, and then you it's very mouse centric. Um, with Elma Cube, I used a bunch of tricks to kind of get around that, but there's nothing like a tiling window manager where all of that is taken care of for you automatically. You open a new window in Omachi, boom, the existing window you have slides over to the left and pop, there's the new window or application on the right. You do that a few more times and now you have a perfect grid. There's just so much less organization in it. And it's funny because I remember seeing people run these systems. Tiling window managers have been around for a very long time. Even though Hyperland in particular is quite new, there's been versions of this for a long time. And I thought, you know what, this seems I don't know, it just doesn't seem for me. And as I found with so many things, when I think something is not for me, some of the times it's just because I haven't tried the right thing. I mean, I have my uh mechanical keyboard here. >> Unplug it. Um, I thought mechanical keyboards again. What a nerdy thing. I heard from a bunch of people, oh yeah, clicky clack. Oh, the talk. What are these people talking about? I was just on a Mac Apple Magic Keyboard for the longest time, not realizing that this could be something because I tried one mechanical keyboard and I didn't like it. Very much the same thing with tiling window manager. I'd seen one tiling manager and I didn't like it and I didn't give it a second chance. And then I found Hyperland, which is this amazing tiling window manager that's built by something very rare in the nerd Linux world. Someone with a unique sense of taste and aesthetics. There's a lot of window managers, tiling window managers even, that are very functional. They're very fast, but they don't necessarily look great. Hyperland out of the box looks fantastic. It even has animations, which I usually hate. I usually don't like animation. I've pulled out all the anim animations from Homicube to make it as fast as possible. But here's a set of animations for just the right transitions that don't feel like a chore, but actually feel like they add to the experience. And then there are other things like switching between workspaces that don't have animations because you want that to be as fast as possible. But the overall sensation of using this system is just on a completely different level. And the funny thing with Hyperland is it has the same philosophy as Arch. These are just building blocks. They're not giving you a whole system out of the box. In fact, when you install Arch and Hyperland, like there's no login screen. There's no notifications. There's no application launcher. There's there's nothing. There's a system that knows how to swap Windows around and bind key bindings and so on, but you have to do all the other work yourself. And again, that's actually not what I want in the end, right? Like I want a system where everything is just set up. I don't have to think about it all the time. But realizing that operating at this low level, I can put the ideal system together. Just like when I showed up and I found Ruby and there was no web application frameworks for Ruby at the time. I mean, there were some, but there was nothing like Rails. There was nothing that was just fully integrated, full stack, full everything. I had to build that bit by bit. And by the time I'd done that, we ended up with a highly opinionated um Kaza system where both others adopting it and myself using it didn't have to think about these decisions again. So, it's just been an absolute joy and revelation to discover that that sensation that like peak experience for me 20 plus years ago with Ruby can now have like a SQL in Linux and it's as exciting in some ways as exhilarating to discover that a bunch of insanely good technology was just out there and I kind of just had it in periphery. I didn't really investigate further. And now that I have investigated, I found something that just really fits my brain like a glove. And just as satisfying is realizing that there are already thousands of other people primarily programmers but not all who've now had the same experience because they've been able to install Amachi and realize that they too like tiling window managers if everything is just set up and there's a base for them to iterate on and create their ideal environment. Some people just leave the um defaults exactly as they are. And other people will take that as a starting point and really tailor their environment to it. One funny thing about that was just two days ago, I think I got this pull request um a piece of code submitted to Dumachi project from a guy who had never made a pull request before, >> like ever in life. This was literally the first time he was contributing to open source in some way and he was changing something about how Machi worked. And I thought like this is really interesting because first of all something like Amachi is pulling someone into open source starting their journey with open source. And then also, could you imagine submitting a pull request to turn down liquid glass in Mac OS or like pull out some of the junk in the Windows start menu? Completely unfathomable. Like these are not affordances we have in the commercial operating systems. Linux really is unique in this way that you can tailor just to you that it doesn't have any of the gunk or the junk that you'll find in commercial offerings and then you can collaborate with other people who share your taste. This is one of the criticisms that's often leveled against Linux is oh there's all these choices there's all these distributions. Yeah, because we don't all want to run the same operating system which at least don't want to run the same sort of flavor of it. I mean underneath it all is all Linux. I mean, cubic is Linux, Ubuntu's Linux, Arch's Linux, Omari's Linux. It's all just Linux, which is to say it's the Linux kernel, the magic that makes all this stuff work. But then on top of that, we can really express ourselves in highly personalized ways just like we do with programming languages. Ruby is a very in uh very unique programming language. It does not appeal to everyone. I've come to realize that after some time that not everyone loves Ruby as much as I love Ruby, but they might love Python as much as I love Ruby. They might love Go or they might love another language. And again, that's what Linux gives us. There's no way that everyone in the world just like either loves Windows or love Mac OS. That's no, that's not what it is, right? So it's just been absolute complete joy to discover this to to build a machi up to now already have 20 releases onto it. Thousands of developers into it manufacturers of Linux friendly machines interested in engaging with this whether framework or beink or some of the other makers that I've been talking to. There's just a new excitement in Linux land that just kind of just ricochets, right? Like I get excited about something in Linux, then other people get excited, then I get more excited, and then we all just get super excited about a new piece of technology that's actually ancient, right? Like Linux is 30 plus years old. Hyperland is very new. Some of the other tools are quite new. Um, and Omachi is obviously literally only two months old, but all of these things coming together just at the right time to give us a true alternative to something like the Mac that I'd been using 20 years prior to switching to Linux and all the other stuff. other people on the windows feeling the same way. Now finally there is something that speaks to me, something that's different enough, unique enough, has a position and opinions that kind of align with my own. Now is the time to make a change and try something new. >> Okay. I have to say for all of your company check-ins where you share with the company what you've been working on, it is clear that you are so excited about it. like it just the energy behind it. Even though it's just written words, you can definitely tell if someone were to ask you 5 years ago. Like imagine you're going to be on Linux, you probably would never have believed it. But look at you now. >> Two years ago, not even five years ago. Two years ago, I would have gone like there's no way I'm not doing Linux. Linux is a thing I run on servers and that's for a different kind of nerd. I'm not interested. Right? That's also why I'm so excited. I just I simply love first of all learning and I also love learning that I'm wrong. Like I literally had the wrong mental image of what Linux on the desktop was. I thought it was something else then it turned out to be that's the best kind of wrong. The best kind of wrong where you're like oh I' I've been walking around with this misconception of Linux and now I corrected that misconception and now I get to enjoy it. >> Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the announcement that you made recently to the company. So 37 Signals used to be an Apple shop. We've all had Mac computers. More recently, it's been like, yeah, if you want to use Windows, let's diversify a bit. We should be diversified. Now we're moving more towards the Linux and Omachi angle. Talk us through a little bit about that and what you're thinking for the new policies of the company. >> Yeah, so about a year ago, just a few months after I had adopted Linux in general, I thought, you know what, this is this is good. Linux is good. I've been working with Isama cube the first iteration of this idea of making our own distribution and I thought this is good enough that going forward as a default as someone new coming into the company this is what we should be using. So we made the policy I made the policy about a year ago saying anyone new joining the technical teams that we have if they don't have really strong preferences to the contrary they should be using Linux they should start on Linux and we actually just hired four new programmers not too long ago and all of them have started on Linux we've uh have a couple of folks on the existing teams that switched to Linux and we have some people on the operations teams that been running Linux and we even have um a couple of designers ers that have been checking out Linux. So like that kind of stuff was was going well, but we're in a different situation now. Um is a far more comprehensive take on what would our own distribution look like? What would it look like if we had full control over everything to set up a development environment just like we wanted it? For many years, we've had a project internally called Shipyard. and shipyard would set up a new machine such that it was usable for the technical staff so that they're ready to make commits and they're ready to deploy things and it was a bunch of stuff that were setting things up and I started realizing why are we doing this just for us like 90% of what's in these setup scripts are just like good practices that we should all be using I mean broadly here as developers most people should be running something like this what if we just took all these things and we put it into one package and we wrapped it around with all this other stuff and that's basically what a batch is. It's taking all these developments we've had internally for what a great development environment would look like and then putting it in box and now come to the realization, hey, if we're doing that already, we're taking all the stuff that we needed to set things up, now we put it into a package, we're sharing with everyone, we should be running that package in exactly the same way that now that we've spent years and years building Rails and that has all the things that we want and we need to build new applications, we should obviously be using Rails. It would be very weird if we were not using Rails or we said like you just use whatever you want. No, Umachi is now a 37 signals Linux distribution in the same way that Rails is a 37 signals Ruby web framework. It's also for other people. Omachi already has I think about 50 contributors outside of the walls of 37 signals and Rails obviously has many thousands of contributors. So it's not just a 37 signals project, but it's very much also a 37 signals project. And once it gets to that stage, we should go all in. We should go all in and say this is what we're going to put our efforts behind. When we do our setups and so forth, it should go towards one solution that we all improve together such that it is the best that it could be. Rails got so much better because it wasn't just me working on it because there were a bunch of programmers outside the company working on it and because all the programmers inside of 37 signals were working on it. Now that we have this reality around our computing, our core computing environment, it just makes total sense to me that that should be our default. We've now announced that over the next three years as hardware goes through its cycles we're all on the technical teams on the operations teams and on the Ruby programming teams going to move to Machi going to move to Linux going to move to hardware from framework or primarily framework. They make these amazing laptops I'm so fond of. Um I have my uh my beloved Framework 13 right here. I actually have quite I have two of these. And did I show you this? >> I haven't seen that. >> It's got this um super neat um >> purple translucent thing going on it now. Anyway, these are just Greg computers. And prior to that, it's funny, I actually have one here still um that we used as a as a media machine in the bedroom. Now, like this was this was standard issue equipment, right? Everyone would just get a Mac and that was what we were going to do. And now we're gonna go like boop um away Mac in framework, but we're not going to throw away perfectly good Macs for people who were fine with that for now. So we're going to take it like at a reasonable pace. Like three years is about the hardware cycle we've always had. Um someone would update their >> laptop or desktop every three years. And that's what we're going to do. And that's also gives everyone a time to sort of get used to it. That's not like one day to the next in the middle of a project. Yeah. You got to just change everything, >> right? And then even with all of that, I'm even allowing for sort of a loophole in the in the commitment here that if for whatever reason like your brain is just thoroughly incompatible with uh with Linux, like fine, run your Mac, right? We you we went from being essentially 100% Mac shop to over the years now we've had a little bit of Linux. We have a tiny bit of Windows. We should actually have more Windows because half the customers on base camp run Windows and it's actually not perfect that we don't have more people on it. But we're going to be running all of it as we should. We should be running both Windows um Linux and the Mac inside the company on a regular basis that we catch all the problems that otherwise be caught by uh by customers. But on the technical teams, we can put more effort around one solution, make that super duper great and push that forward and help show the rest of the industry, other programmers that Linux isn't just sort of a option in theory. It's a fantastic option in practice. And here's a company that goes all in on it, that's willing to go like, "All right, that's it. That's what we're doing." And I think this is really what Linux needs. It needs new energy. It needs new aesthetics. It needs new commitments. And it should combine all that with the fantastic, wonderful work that's already been done over literally 30 years by super dedicated, awesome individuals and companies. Like this is all adjective. It's not like, oh, we're going to barge in and like rewrite Linux. No, no, no. I mean, is a celebration of Linux. It's a love letter to Linux. like Arch Linux the distribution this is based on is literally 20 plus years old. There's just so much fundamental core progress in Linux that we just need to like show people which again I keep coming back to this example of Ruby and Rails because it feels so similar to me. Rails was a love letter to Ruby and I was basically going Ruby is this incredible programming language. I need to present it to more people so that they can have the joy of writing Ruby. But to get that joy, they're going to need a little help. They're going to need a little nudge. They're going to need some tools. They're going to need a lowered barrier of entry. Rails is that um is attempting to do the same thing for Linux, for a new group of quote unquote customers, people mostly Mac users, but also some Windows users. But I think in our sort of corner of the industry, web development, SAS, all that stuff, the Mac has what, 97% market share. And I don't have any delusions that we're going to turn that fully around. But could we just get Linux to 10%. Maybe even 20%. Who knows, one day 30%. I think that's entirely possible if you look at the developer community and the web developer community even more specifically. So this move that the company's making, it's reminding me of we always talk about dog fooding our own products, but also like we're using Base Camp every day. Like that's how we're able to know exactly what it needs because every single one of person is in it every single day. Like as you explain it, it it just makes sense. That's exactly what this is. That now that um has kind of shown itself as being so well suited for the kind of work that we do, we should be we should be using it. The technical team should be using we should be improving it. We should be helping pushing it forward and we can just do that so much more effectively if the majority of the technical staff is running it. And it's not any different than what we used to do with the Mac. We were all in on Mac. every single person virtually I can remember I think like Noah our old data analyst like ran Linux for a little bit maybe one person on ops also did for a little bit of some sort of offshoot experiment but otherwise we were all in on the Mac right and it's funny because when I announced this um externally after we had uh announced it internally I got a lot of that push back right how dare you mandate the tools that people are going to use like first of all what are you talking about like Companies in general as default mandate what people use, right? Like, hey, this is a Windows shop. We use Windows manager something something. Here's your machine. It's already set up for you. In our corner of the industry, that's what the Mac is. Here's your Mac. It's set up with all this stuff. That's what you're going to use. You're going to get a standard issue company machine. So, for us to say the same thing about Linux, I don't fall find that at all kind of out of character with what everyone else is doing. In fact, it's even less in character because we're still embracing a diversity of operating systems at third signals. We want to have some Windows. We want to continue to have some Mac, but we also want to have Linux, right? And then the other thing is this is a case where I'm not just saying like, hey, uh, Ubuntu, let's run that. No, no. I'm saying at 37 signals, we're building a Linux distribution. We should be running our own Linux distribution. Of course, we should. And, um, if we do, we're going to make it better. and we're going to make it better, faster. And also, every single programmer now inside of the company has a direct line to changing how the entire computing setup that they use every day, how that works. That's a way to get like just the tailored environment that everyone needs to be more productive. Not just a tailored environment, not just about productivity, but it's also about aesthetics. Um, in in a large sense is about aesthetics. That your computing environment shouldn't just be functional. It shouldn't just be fast. It should be beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous. In just the same way that I want beautiful code. I want gorgeous Ruby all over everything that we work for. Um is allowing me and us to deliver that to our base computing environment. >> Okay. David, I want to ask you about one section of your write up to the company because I think it's important for people who might be thinking about making the switch to Linux, not just our own employees. So, it says, I ask you approach the transition with an open mind. Give it five minutes, then another two weeks. And then you also say, work through the frustration for at least two weeks, except a temporary drop in productivity to get there. Kind of talk us through that as someone who's like, uh, I'm, you know, I have a good system that works. Why would I go through this frustration to make the switch? Habits are really hard to break and computing habits for most people are very deeply ingrained. When I first attempted to or not just attempted when I first switched to Linux I literally had 20 years of muscle memory of expectations of aesthetic tuning of developing an eye for like the Mac way of doing things. And I can now tell you from very personal experience, very recent experience. Holy [ __ ] was that frustrating. I mean, I kept doing the wrong hotkeys. I kept breaking things in this the other way. I didn't like how something looked. I didn't like how something worked. I was just I was used to a certain way of doing things, right? And it only happened 18 months ago. It's really fresh in my memory just how annoyed I was for the first 3 days to the point where I was questioning whether this whole thing was going to happen or all at all like the original motivation to move to Linux was powered by a frustration with Apple. But you can't sustain frustration alone, right? Like if my adventure into Linux was just about not liking Apple, it wasn't going to last. like I was not going to make the commitment to rewriting everything just on the basis of animosity. It provided a springboard. It provided an initial kickoff of motivation. But then it had to sustain itself on love. It had to sustain itself on the attraction to where I was going. And that took a while, right? That the first three days, as I say, were actually kind of brutal. I mean, I don't want to diminish it by the comparison here, but there's a little bit of like almost detox, like 20 years of Mac addictions detoxing out of my goddamn veins, and I'm just like getting the shakes of like, why doesn't this work exactly like everything I've been using for 20 years? And I pushed through and after the first three days like the cold turkey subsided and it like no wonder felt like actively painful but still the first week was a little bit frustrating, right? And then by the end of the second week I was like what was the big deal? What was the big deal? This is this is good. No, no, no. This is great. I mean here's a bunch of things I actually really like. I've gotten some of the muscle memory I needed converted. I've I've kind of gotten into it. And I just want to preface that and I still do to anyone I sell like, "Hey, do you know what? You should give a Linux a try." Is if you give Linux a try for like five hours and you like me have been using the Mac for 5, 10, 20 years, you're going to hate it. You're going to hate it. That's just a guarantee because that's what people do when their habits change, right? it's so hard to break and you go your frame of reference is so set on a specific way computers work that you're just going to hate it because you just have the frustration and that's what the beginner mindset is like you're like I used to be an expert in this exact stack and now I'm going back to if not square one square five like you still know how computers work and Linux is is still just a computer it's not like a [ __ ] piece of alien technology that speaks gobbly go right It's still a computer and especially for Mac users, it's it's still Unix's underpinnings. Like there's actually a lot of similarities, but don't underestimate how painful it is to try to rewire your habits. Habits are very hard to break. And the key ingredient you need to break them is literally dedication and patience. It has to just hurt for a week. Okay, I want to go to some comments and questions that were posted on your post on X. I think some of them you've answered but so that you can answer them directly. Someone wrote actually a couple people have asked what does this mean for omacube cube >> cube >> um cube is essentially done and the reason it's essentially done is that it's built so much higher up the stack it's built on top of iuntu which is already a fully formed desktop environment like cube is more tweaking something that already exists um starts like seven layers deeper into the stack right instead of just moving into a high-rise and rearranging the furniture a little bit. Arch and hyperland just gives you a plot of land and a bunch of sticks in the corner and a brick and like you go build a house, right? So, it's just a much longer journey to really tune everything exactly right. But it also means we can express and I can express much more of my preferences for what the ideal computing platform looks like. So, I really like the cube still. I think it is for some people a really good introduction to Linux. It's it's really sort of a set of training wheels and it's also fine for other people. It's not just training wheels. I say that as a term of endearment, not to like negoti. It's very familiar to anyone coming from the Mac or Windows. It just it just works very similar. Hyperland Arch quite a lot more habit breaking you need to do there, right? but also much more scope for us to to as I say express my ideal vision for it. So there's a much longer road. We have much more to do in um um but I want to continue to maintain cube. Now the the graceful thing here is that canonical really only updates Ubuntu the base layer like I don't know two times a year or something. And even the the main version that's upgraded that people use is called the long-term stable version LTS. It's just upgraded once every two years. So, it's not exactly an insurmountable effort for me to continue to upgrade it even if I don't use it on the daily anymore. >> Okay. And then a couple of snarky comments that I want to give you an opportunity to respond to. Some of this you've already kind of addressed here today already. Um, but someone wrote, "I'm impressed by all the Linux work you're doing. However, the Linux switch at 37 Signals feels like a boss pushing a personal preference, forcing everyone to adapt." And then a similar comment, I can't think of a compelling reason to require Linux instead of OSX for the people who want OSX. Give people the tools they like the best. Mandating Ruby is not the same as mandating Linux and you know it. Any comments for our friends here on the internet? >> First of all, they're right. They are right. This is the job of a chief technology officer to pick technology that the company will use and bet on and invest in and whatever. Like that's my role. That's literally the job description. And in that job description is uh a history of doing exactly that. That's what Rails is. Do you know what we mandate that people at third signals write new web applications in Rails, the web framework that we created. We mandate that you use hot wire on the front end. We mandate that you use Kamal for deployment. We mandate all of these things. And I think that's where people perhaps don't realize whereachi is different. Um is not just a Linux distribution. It is now our Linux distribution. It's also other people's but certainly is ours. Um was born at 37 Signals born from from me pouring 37 signals into it, right? Is not just some random [ __ ] I pulled off the shelf. I've literally poured at this point hundreds approaching thousands of hours into this system. Of course, we're gonna use it. Of course, we're gonna use it. Now, we're going to do it in a way that feels sort of proportional because this is a change. Like, if I came in tomorrow and say it like, "Hey, do you know what guys? I don't like Ruby anymore." We should be writing everything in Go. I mean, people might go like, "What? Like, is that starting tomorrow? When is that going? like what are we doing here? Right? So with Amachi and the switch there, as I said, we're doing it over three years and we're doing it at a kind of a time of folks choosing. We should be moving towards it and anyone knew should be getting on to it and we should get more people onto it. But it's not just like, hey, day one, switch over. But going allin, burning the boats has just immensely motivating power for folks to get excited about like, do you know what? We're not half in, half out a little bit maybe. Uh, no, no, no. We're doing this. We're [ __ ] doing this. We're going in. We're going to make this amazing. And we're going to make it amazing. Not just for us, but for anyone else who might be in the same boat. And that kind of commitment, that's what this company is. We see opportunities, we see holes in the market, we see new ways of doing things, and we say like, you know what? We could just decide to do that. We could just decide to write JavaScript without a built pipeline to go all nobuilt. We could just decide to move out of the cloud, invest in our own hardware and infrastructure and say goodbye to AWS. We can decide all of these things that a lot of people think are just part of the environment. This is just part of the water. Well, don't you use the thing everyone use? Like why don't you just get a Mac and use AWS? and they don't even remember that any of these things, do you know what? They were also weird. At one point once upon a time, I used to be a serious Mac evangelist back when everyone was running Windows. I remember when no serious technical programmer was using a Mac because that was something designers used. That's a design whatever that's not for serious programmers, right? So I remember when things were different and therefore I also have complete confidence that they could be different again. But like the Mac is not the end of history. Apple is not the end of history. There are variations. You can find something better. And when you do, it's really fun adventure to just go all in on it. >> Okay. Well, I think with talking about all the new things 37 Signals is doing, this is a perfect time to let you guys know that we are working on a new podcast as well. It will launch later this year. If you've enjoyed hearing some of the technical aspects of 37 Signals and the products that we're building, this new podcast is for you. Unlike Rework, which features Jason and David talking about mostly business philosophies of the company, this will be a deep dive into some of our technical aspects, you'll meet several programmers on the 37 signals team and hear about the work that they're doing. So stay tuned for that coming this fall. David, thank you for this and um excited to hear what's next for all of our friends jumping on board with Amachi.

In this bonus episode of REWORK, 37signals' co-founder and CTO David Heinemeier Hansson shares his exploration into Linux, development of Omarchy, and the company's decision to go all-in. *Key Takeaways* 00:43 – David's exploration into Linux and development of Omarchy 04:27 – How Omarchy is different, Hyprland, and tiling windows managers 11:05 – The joy and excitement in exploring something new 13:14 – The recent announcement David shared with the 37signals' team regarding Linux and Omarchy 21:20 – Why it's important for the team to be all-in on Omarchy 24:14 – Tips for overcoming the challenge of transitioning to Linux 28:20 – What this new system means for Omakub 30:24 – David's responds a few negative comments on X about the company's decision 34:25 – 37signals is releasing a new podcast later this year *Links and Resources* The company's internal announcement about moving to Omarchy — https://public.3.basecamp.com/p/MHugfH7E8BUm5dzw7Bcuf7UK Record or upload a video question for Jason and David — https://www.37signals.com/podcastquestion Get a free Basecamp account at https://www.basecamp.com Books by 37signals – https://37signals.com/books 30-day free trial of HEY – https://www.hey.com/ Once. com – https://once.com/ Campfire – https://once.com/campfire HEY – https://www.hey.com/ The REWORK podcast – https://37signals.com/podcast/ Get some REWORK podcast merch – https://37signals.com/podcast/shop *Let's be social!* Twitter/X: https://x.com/37signals Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/37signalshq/ Rework is a production of 37signals. You can find show notes and transcripts on our website https://www.37signals.com/ Leave us a video question at www.37signals.com/podcastquestion or send an email to rework@37signals.com, and we might answer it on a future episode.