President Barack Obama in Conversation with Marc Maron | WTF Podcast

How you doing? >> Good, buddy. How you doing? >> We've aged. >> I know. I'm a little hunched over, but you look like you're walking. Okay. How you doing, Mr. President? It's good to see you. >> Nice to see you. >> How you been? >> Well, you know, I'm nice to meet you. >> How come he's in a suit, man? >> Everything else is in the wash. >> Yeah, I know. Suit guy. >> Like I had a when when you were first on, I was like, "What am I going to wear?" And I'm like, "Well, I just wear the plaid shirt, I guess." Well, >> you're casual. >> Yeah, I am. Cuz cuz I knew you would be here. I think this way. the uh >> got the few basketballs. >> Well, uh yeah, I'm signing them because I we stuff gets stacked up that I'm supposed to sign. >> Believe me, you remember my old garage, right? >> Yeah, it's it's >> it's it's it's similar. >> It's Yeah, a little neater. >> Yeah, >> but not much. >> Okay. >> Rolling on both. >> We're rolling on both. >> Good. >> Yeah. Everything's good. >> I can I say before we start or Sure. you know, whenever you want to start. >> To me, I can't imagine anything tougher or more terrifying than doing standup comedy. So, once you do that, >> Yeah. >> I mean, everything else is >> is easy. >> I won't say easy. I'm saying >> not as frightening. >> Yeah. The the the to me standing alone on a stage and hoping a bunch of people laugh at your stuff. >> Yeah. It's uh Yeah, it you get used to it. Yeah. >> But not unlike I'm sure uh your gig. >> Yeah. >> Uh you know, sometimes it's not going to go exactly right. >> It's not always going to you're not always going to uh hit it out of the park, >> right? >> But I guess what I'm saying is at a certain point for you, there's got to be just you had a lot of reps. >> Yeah, >> reps are helpful, man. >> Reps in talking to people and reps in comedy. But it's weird with both for me because uh I I seem to get just as anxious and and and it never goes away. >> It's not for me because I I I don't know if it's part of my preparation, but with standup, it's a little less where like I know that a part of me lives up there. >> Yeah. >> That that that I exist on that stage. >> Uh and so I don't freak myself out as much. But with conversations, I I don't generally know what's going to happen. And the anxiety is different. But uh but yeah, I I still keep it fresh by being terrified. >> Well, look, there's uh Bill Russell. >> Yep. Bill Russell, >> greatest uh greatest champion of North American sports. Y >> kept throwing up even after. Yeah. Right before games. >> It's true, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, you got to have a little bit of >> a few butterflies otherwise. Did you you don't get it? >> You know, not not just having a conversation, >> right? >> Um >> you know, if if there's a big speech that I've got to give. Yeah. >> Um then there's still a little bit of >> a little bit of fear. >> A little bit of adrenaline. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. A little bit of like, all right, let me make sure that >> Yeah. >> You know, I got >> Yeah. You're ready to go. You're focused. >> I'm focused. >> Lit up. >> I'm I'm pumped up. Are are we are we just going to dive in here or how you >> We're already doing it. >> We're already doing it. >> I do want to ask you I got a weird question I want to ask you and I I decided to start with this as opposed to end with it. And it's it's kind of business, >> but it's important for me. It's important for the show. I'm going to I'm going to ask you to for your signature on something. >> Absolutely. What do we got? Is it a commutation? I can't do that anymore. >> No, no. This is uh I I created this pseudo legal document to to honor this is our last episode and this is uh this is something I wrote and I it's uh it's honest but I I I wanted to witness and and you're here. >> So to all concerned this is dated 101325 the date of the last show. I Mark Maron hereby formerly release Brendan McDonald from the professional responsibility of listening to me talk from now and in perpetuity. Brendan has listened to me talk no less than 10,000 hours over the last 22 years, often several hours in one sitting. That's a lot, even more than I've listened to myself talk. Brendan is free to talk to me socially, but that is entirely up to him. If if he chooses if he chooses to do so, I will be delighted and promise not to abuse the privilege. It has been a life-changing ride on my yammering, and I am forever grateful to Brendan for keeping me at my best. I I am I am more than happy I'm gonna sign it to you sign it. I will witness it >> and uh this is kind of a commutation. I mean essentially Brendan is released. >> Yes. It's a it's a from me from you. You know I have a sense that uh he kind of liked hanging out with you. >> Yeah. It was a it's been a hell of a partnership. >> I mean it may be a little Stockholm syndrome. >> No. No. He He won't let that happen. Yeah. I'm completely aware that I have not had that impact on his brain cuz if I did, we'd both be in trouble. He's like the better half of he's protected me. You know, I'll say and and and it'll go on. Uh I'll record stuff and in the back of my head I'll think like Brendan's not going to he's not going to leave that in. >> No, not really. >> Yeah. It's >> Well, you got to you got to have he's like your super ego. >> That's exactly right. and he's a a functioning part of my memory. Yes. >> Like I don't remember like obviously I remember our conversation but there's been 1,600 and more almost 1,700 conversations. >> That's a lot. So how are you? So so tell me how you're feeling. I look congrat first of all congratulations. >> Yeah. >> Second of all I'm honored to be on your last show. How are you feeling about this whole thing uh transition uh moving on from this thing that has been >> well uh one of the defining uh parts of your career in >> 16 years a long time. >> I mean well I mean I I maybe you you could help me. I I feel okay. I feel like I'm I'm sort of ready >> for the break but uh but there is sort of a a fear there of uh you know what do we what do I do now? I mean I'm busy >> but not unlike your job. I'm gonna compare my job to the presidency now. Is that >> I think it's pretty similar. >> Thank you. >> I've got a lot of people >> who over the last 16 years have grown to rely on me. >> Yes. >> And >> you've got a lot of fans just around. >> Yeah. And >> in unlikely places. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> As in here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The uh but like you know they they need something right. that that there is a a feeling of like how am I going to feel, you know, less alone? How am I going to deal with my mental this or that? And and how am I going to find, you know, a way to exist in the world that we're living in? I mean, I'm not offering them solutions, but I am commiserating >> and it's comforting. >> They trust you. >> Yeah. and and and they feel as if what you're going through and what they're going through occupies a similar space, right? And so they don't feel like they're traveling this journey that can be frightening alone sometimes. >> That's right. >> And and yeah, there's a power in the human voice, you know, that you >> you grow attached to. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So when you left, what did you do for your mental health with the weight of >> Well, look, how old are you now? >> I'm 62, >> right? So, you know, u you you've still got a couple of chapters left. And my my theory was u somebody gave me advice right before I I I was leaving office. Uh, and it was don't rush into what the next thing is. Take a beat. >> Uh-huh. >> And take some satisfaction looking backwards and saying, "Huh, you know what? Didn't get everything done that I wanted. >> Wasn't always exactly how I planned it, but there's a body of work there that I'm proud of." >> Right? >> You know, pat yourself on the back for a second. >> Just be a little brain dead for a while. Uh, you know, I I've uh read a bunch of books that had been stacked up by I had a big uh deficit with my wife that I had to had to kind of work my way out of, right? Uh so we went on a lot of trips and >> hung out and and and you know just had nice dinners and and slept in. Um and then I think you know what what this is an opportunity for for you it was an opportunity for me was figuring out all right um what's my next highest and best use what's my what what's what's a new purpose >> that u scratches that itch and it it may not come to you right away. The podcast was kind of a random thing, right? You said, "Well, let's try this out." And and you didn't know it was going to go for 16 years. I I assume when you did the first show. >> No, we didn't know anything. >> You didn't know anything. You were trying to figure it out and and and so but but you probably have an inkling of, you know, what you just described about people trusting you. you connecting partly because you're willing to be vulnerable in front of people and and and kind of let them know >> uh you know what's going on inside your gut. Um there's a power to that. What what's another way of channeling it, right? That that may be different than you playing a character in a movie or right, >> you know, you or even you doing standup. there's there's something more raw, honest, exposed about what you do when you're just having a conversation and connecting with people. And so the question is, well, is there another way for me to catch that? >> Yeah. >> You know, but you don't have to rush into it. I guess my main thing would be, you know, take your time, >> right? >> Unless unless you really got some bills to pay. >> No, no, I'm okay. But like it feels like the like I remember when uh you left and the you know there is this sort of a vacuum and and in terms of like my obviously my responsibility to to my audience is is different but how do you sort of you know did did you feel the weight of that responsibility? Yeah. I I mean what what was unusual for me was obviously a lot of u what I represented Yeah. a lot of what Michelle and I had tried to project the values our thinking about America. >> Um you know my successor seemed to represent the opposite >> right >> not seemed did. Yeah. >> And so I think there is a lot of anger, a lot lot of >> sadness. Yeah. Uh some fear uh among a big chunk of the country. And I and you know one of the problems with um the American political system is although we have political parties, we don't have a parliamentary system. So, so basically the president, in my case, uh, Democrat, I leave office and there's no obvious person who's now the shadow prime minister, the leader of the party for the Democrats, right? And so there there were a lot of terrific people who were doing good work, but >> you know, we have this weird situation where you don't have a a designated person who's >> right, >> speaking on behalf of the whole party. So, um, I actually found myself drawn back in to, uh, uh, day-to-day politics or commentary more than I had wanted to be >> after the second >> after the Yeah. in 2017, 2018. Um, and I thought I was going to be able to remove myself more from being out there in public and was going to be able to concentrate on what I really wanted to do, which was >> uh coach the next generation of leadership. >> Sure. >> Um, you move from player to coach essentially. And I I kept on being uh asked to to comment on news of the day and look at this outrage and >> yeah, >> why aren't you out there more and and and that kind of thing. Um and look, that's flattering. >> Yeah. >> And uh you know, it's it's an indication that you made a connection with people. >> Sure. Um, but I I I tried to be a little bit disciplined about recognizing that I I'd moved on to a new phase where I I did not have formal power. >> I have some hopefully moral persuasion, some some credibility. >> Yeah. >> But I didn't have formal power. And and so more than anything for the long term, what I could do that would be most helpful would be to start promoting up lifting up shining a spotlight on those, you know, that next generation of of leadership and talent uh new voices because part of what also happens is, you know, um you know, as you get older, Michelle and I joke about this, um no matter how much you you want to pretend otherwise you're starting to get a little out of touch. You're not completely, you know, plugged into the zeitgeist >> and it happens naturally. >> It just happens. Yeah. I mean, look, I I don't My brain doesn't register Tik Tok. >> Yeah. Mine neither. >> The same way that it does my 16-year-old niece. >> Right. >> Right. >> You got to get a guy to do it for you. >> I It's not just the te the the the the technology itself. It's that >> I'm not plugged in. I'm not relating to >> Yeah. >> the cultural, >> you know, stream in the same way that somebody who who's 20 or 25 or even 35 is. But that's an interesting point is that, you know, human connection, you know, Tik Tok and like when you and I did the podcast 2015, >> the landscape was was not as gluted. You know, Instagram didn't have the power it does. Tik Tok, I don't even know if it was around. >> No, not that I remember. >> And, you know, there was a a way of of making a real connection. And it seems like a lot of these platforms now like Tik Tok is just an inundation of stuff that like what a like I know when I talk to you and I can feel it and and you can hear it that there's a human connection, >> right? >> And it seems like you know that's necessary. >> Yeah. It I listen I've been wrestling with this for a while. You know um >> people talk about me being the first digital president and and that's true. Obviously the internet existed before me and but but you know I when I came into office in 2009 >> you know the smartphone was not yet widely around um and so the smartphone comes out around 2010 Facebook Twitter a lot of social media is just taking off um >> it seemed optimistic >> it did right so so you know there's there's all this sense of this is human connection. >> My campaign wouldn't work. I I joke about the fact that >> um I was an early adapter of all this social media, not because by the way I was so uh smart. It was that >> my campaign was broke enough that I had to rely on a bunch of 20 and 25 year olds volunteering in our office. Yeah. >> And they'd say like, "Hey, uh Senator, um this is a website." I said, "Ah, website, great." You know, so sounds good. Sounds good. And say, "So you can have pictures and you can have even video on there and see this little box like people can can click it and and they can contribute money, right?" >> And I'd be like, "Really? >> That's good. >> That well that's that seems useful." And and then they say, "And this one, they can like volunteer." And I' I'd be like, "Well, that's great. Yeah, let's do that." And and so I probably I mean part of the reason I was elected was we were adapting all these new media. But you know this dates myself when I talk to audiences I was like my social media our social media was MySpace. >> Yeah. >> And Meetup >> right >> now. Meetup is the one that I always tell people is the most interesting to me. >> I don't even know what it is. I missed So, Meetup was, you know, it was it was a social media >> early. Yeah. >> Early early uh application. >> And you could send basically text over. So, so let's say there were a bunch of volunteers up in Idaho. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> And you know, Idaho is not a big blue state with a lot of delegates. So, we don't have the resources to send a whole staff, >> right, >> paid staff up to Idaho. But we have, you know, a few volunteers, uh, some people, some supporters. They send us a message saying, "Hey, we're Idahoans for Obama." >> Yeah. >> And, uh, we'd we we'd love to to build a we think, you know, you can win this, uh, state. And so, we go, "All right." >> So, we'd send a bunch of information through Meetup and we'd give them the app. And basically what the app would do is you could send out here's Obama's positions on things, here's, you know, dates of debates and this and that. >> But the main thing it did, hence the name, was it would help these volunteers organize themselves to meet up >> in person. >> In person. >> Yeah. >> In a church basement, in a bar, >> right? >> In a VFW hall, whatever. And what I always tell people was wonderful about this rudimentary app was they'd show up when they actually met in person and maybe they were assuming that they were all thought the same way and >> right >> were were had the same positions on everything and they'd show up at some o you know Obama volunteer meeting and you'd have a you know what looked like a ex army sergeant with a crew cut and you'd have a a black young black woman with a nose ring and you'd have >> a suburban mom, you know, with some kids. >> And it turned out that by virtue of meeting in person, you kind of realize >> people are a little more complicated. >> Sure. >> Maybe they don't agree with me on everything, right? >> Maybe they're and that's a good thing, right? So, so it creates this friction and this interest >> and and it it it forced people to kind of say, "All right, well, you know, it turns out that I don't have to agree with everything to to work with somebody, >> right?" >> And then out of out of those meetings, they'd have to go out and start knocking on doors and that's the ultimate meetup because now you're you're you're forcing yourself to talk to strangers who definitely don't agree with you on stuff, but there was that sense of human interaction. Yeah. >> In all and and that that that gave people a sense of how somebody could be a good guy but also have blind spots. Somebody could be, you know, uh seem like a real jerk and yet there's this redeeming quality. They they they sense that you get living in a neighborhood, right? Oh, yeah. which which is like you go to the soccer game and all the parents are sitting around and you know some guy or or gal may may not be your cup of tea but then you see him hug their kid and you go oh >> and >> you know what >> he's all right >> he's all right >> well and that's foundational to democracy working >> correct >> and and what happens now is that uh with you know us and them and with uh all these social media platforms you know being uh individual's reality, >> right? >> So there's no conversation. You just got people blasting away at your face all day. >> And and and the and the whole reeling thing, the algorithm. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> It does capture your mind and send you down a very narrow track in a way that And it's interesting for me. I I said like my brain doesn't work that way, >> right? >> But I'll be honest with you. With me it's mostly like sports videos. >> Yeah. Sure, but I I see how this mechanism works where you can just get on a track and that algorithm is powerful and you will suddenly be consumed by this thing for half an hour or and you look up and you've wasted a whole bunch of time and and but what it's also done is it has narrowed your world significantly. And and if if you get on on a political or social track on those reels, um it's hard to break. >> It'll break your brain. >> It'll break your brain. >> And it's and it's it's it's so uh terrifying and disturbing that where you don't and also the dopamine part of it. It's that people don't have necessarily whether they do or not, it it'll annihilate the their sense of values. It'll annihilate principles, you know, in a way because it works them up by delivering this thing. >> Well, it it is well known. I mean, this has been documented that uh you know, the the design of phones, the way social media apps are set up. A lot of that is science based on uh that that arose out of, you know, figuring out how to make >> addiction, right? >> Figuring out how to make slot machines. >> Sure. Sure. I mean, there's a reason why all these pings and lights and >> you know, stuff comes up on your phone when notifications come if you haven't silenced it on your phone, right? Just that sense of that. The only game I really play is uh on my my phone is Word with Friends with Pete Susan, my my old photographer from the White House. >> Sure. Took our picture. >> Yeah. And um and it's just a way for us to stay in touch. >> Yeah. There's a very particular ping that comes up when he's played. >> Yeah. >> And if my if I haven't turned my phone off, it I I could be in the middle of negotiations on a you know nuclear treaty. >> Yeah. >> And that thing goes off, there's a part of me that's like, you know what, I got to I wonder what he played. Right. So, so all that is shaping um the political environment in ways that even when you and I talked in in in what 2015? >> Yeah. >> It it that didn't exist. And now the interesting thing is podcasting >> Uhhuh. >> Um is obviously it's gotten segmented and and and it's getting chopped up so that people don't listen to a whole conversation >> on the video. Yeah. on the video and all that stuff. >> There is still, I think, a power in just people listening to conversations if they listen to the whole thing. >> Sure. >> That I >> I think is different. >> Yeah. I I you know, you you and Rogan I guess came up >> Yeah. started right around the same time, right? And it it was interesting to me when, you know, people started criticizing, I don't know, Bernie or somebody else for going on Rogan, >> right? >> It's like, well, why wouldn't you? >> Yeah, of course. Go go go go go. If if you have time to go have a conversation with somebody that you know then that is consistent with democracy to to to me engaging in a honest conversation that's not just yelling not just trying to score points but all right I'm going to take time to listen and then I'm going to >> kind of share how I'm I'm thinking about things. um still valuable >> that that part of it is valuable and and the fact that we can have access to that um that that we can we can in some ways participate in that conversation I I I think is is actually not the big the the big problem. The problem that happens with podcasts is that they get all chopped up >> and then then it it it gets put up on the on the the video stream and >> um >> the content economy. Yeah. The one thing that we did was always keep it audio. So then we were kind of it's harder to to clip audio. Correct. >> And and full and the people that listen to my show Yeah. >> are in for the whole conversation. And I and I think what you're talking about which you know I try to kind of under understand or or wrap my brain around is that there's a tribalization happening uh in terms of even if Bernie you know goes on Joe you know that you know Bernie is focused and he knows what he wants to say >> but you you know in when it's taken out of context or it's or it's you know solely looked at by a bubble of people >> that the the message can become obscured. Right. And diminished. >> Yeah. But but look, there's this young state rep, uh, James Tico, who was on there a while back out of Texas. >> Oh, that guy's good, right? >> He's terrific. Really talented young man. And and you know, u it it does require a certain confidence in your actual convictions to debate and have a conversation with somebody who disagrees with you on a whole bunch of stuff. What makes him so good though? Because there is something grounded about him that you had it too. >> I I I you know what so so in our foundation a lot of the work that that I do is is is working with young civic leaders, political leaders, journalists, human rights lawyers, not just here in the United States but around the world. And one of the first things I say to him is uh know what you really believe, >> right? >> Like that's your starting point, >> right? >> And if you know what you first of all, if if if you understand your convictions, you got a moral compass, you got a code, you you've spent time wrestling with what it is that you care about and what you believe. >> Yeah. then it's a lot easier now to be open and actually listen to other people uh and as opposed to constantly trying to beat off anybody who might contradict >> right >> uh you know your your your current uh perspective and I think a guy like him uh he's his starting point is let me let me say what I believe and and it doesn't mean that anybody in public life and and by the way, anybody who's married, anybody who's in a relationship, you know, it doesn't mean that you you you can't practice the art of diplomacy that you can't say >> compromised >> in ways that are are more likely to be received, >> right? Um, you know, but it it it I think now more than ever what people long for and and the word authenticity gets overused. I think what people long for is uh some core integrity that that seems absent. just a sense that ah you know the the person seems to um walk the walk doesn't just talk the talk >> well there's a vulnerability to that. >> Yes. >> And there's a vulnerability to you know having that integrity and having those principles where if you're going to do it you know straight. >> Yeah. >> That you know you have to leave yourself open uh to what's going to come back at you and still stand strong. >> Correct. and and and and sometimes it's going to be uncomfortable and and painful. >> Yeah. Look, and and and I and I think that that's >> um you know, there's been a lot of post-mortem about Democrats and >> Yeah. >> progressives and you know, I saw you know your your standup where you said you know >> you know somehow you know we we we figured out how to be so annoying >> and we annoyed the average American into fascism. Yeah. which which cracked cracked me up because there I I wasn't as funny about saying this but even you know four five six years ago I'd say you know you you can't just be a scold all the time. you you you you can't um constantly lecture people without acknowledging that you've got some blind spots too and that life's messy and uh you know and and and so the the vulnerability I think comes in in saying right I've got some core convictions I've got beliefs that I'm not going to compromise but I'm also not going to assert that I am so righteous and so pure and and and and so insightful that there's not the possibility that maybe I'm wrong on this. >> Sure. Or that, you know, other people if they don't say things exactly the way I say them or see things exactly the way I do that somehow they're bad people. and and and and so there was this weird what what I saw uh in and and and I think this was a fault of of some progressive language was um almost asserting a a a holier than thou superiority that's not that different from what we used to joke about coming from, >> you know, the the right and the moral majority and you know far away and a certain fundamentalism about how to think about stuff that I think was dangerous >> but because it was also a single issue. Yeah. that they if you have progressives like you know and how you straddled this stuff in in general with being you you know constantly trolled and attacked by the right and then you have the left who are like well he droned a lot of people and then it never goes >> I I'd get my ass kicked >> right >> just >> but but it seemed like the intention on on your behalf and I noticed this is something that happened to me recently I was in Canada you know for a couple days and uh >> and I was talking to somebody up there and and and and I said the the best thing that that that Trump has done is bring your country together. >> They they they do seem to be uh rallying around the the maple leaf. But it but it was it was fundamentally like you know despite whatever differences they have and it is a par parliamentary system up there. But as individuals that however they were leaning culturally right or left that when you know the bullying started and the tariffs started and the threats started they were able to to go down to their core beliefs of what their country meant. >> Yes. >> And and what it what it meant to them. Correct. and and how they were, you know, going to come together and and, you know, rebuild from the inside >> so we don't have to deal with this. >> But it struck me as to like, you know, well, how how are and I know the answer to some level. How are we not capable of it? How is it that most people don't understand the civic responsibility or the civic structure of how this country is supposed to work outside of the people that are shamelessly uh against it? >> Yeah. Look, I I mean, I think the the the way I describe it, America has always had waring narratives. I mean, a lot of American history is is a war of ideas, >> right? And and you know, I I gave a speech probably my the the speech that is closest to my heart that I gave throughout my presidency was the speech I gave on the 50th anniversary of Selma, the the the march on Selma over the M Pettis Bridge. And you know, I I talked about that clash being as important as as Gettysburg or Appamatics. You've got on one side John Lewis and a rag tag band of, you know, Pullman porters and maids and clergy and couple rabbis and college kids and they're marching from one side and on the other side you've got um you know folks with billy clubs on horseback and fire hoses and dogs and all that And what what John Lewis represented was the narrative that says we the people means just what it says that we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. Uh, and on the other side was the fact of slavery and conquest and hierarchy and domination and if you didn't have property, you didn't vote and women weren't involved and and and that was always part of America too, >> right? And and and the question has always been, can we pull off this experiment in which people are showing up from all over the place? They're not tied together by blood. They don't necessarily worship God in the same way or worship God at all. They they they they speak different languages. They they have all these weird foods. They they they show up with these odd customs and and and some of them were dragged here in chains and and and some of them had had their their land taken from them and their culture destroyed and and out of all that, can we create a a a a shared creed, >> right, >> that allows us to live peacefully together and get stuff done. And on the other side, there has always been the idea that no, no, we the people means something very particular. >> Yeah. At each stage and and look, this led to ultimately civil war, but even after civil war, you got Jim Crow and reconstruction and the clan and you >> there's always been this fight over what is the the true story of America. And and I believe deeply in this story that yeah, if we can pull this off, if if we can actually treat everybody with decency and respect and compromise and make democracy work, it shines a light for the entire world, >> right? And the other path of of tribe and a zero- sum game and everything's dog eat dog and a competition and you try to take advantage of the other person because they're going to try to take advantage of you and if they don't look like you and they don't believe what you do and they have a different faith in you that that they're a threat to you, that is the path that leads to things like World War II and the Holocaust and uh you know slavery. and and and pull pot and >> and >> and Rwanda and you know we've we see how that plays out and and so the question is >> you know can we can can can the better in my mind can the can that better story win and I and I think that after World War II you and I are basically the same generation. We grew up in a co a monoculture with and and as flawed as it was, you know, with TV and Walter Kronite, we were all watching the same things. We were seeing the same things. We were listening to the same things. There were groups that weren't represented. There was, you know, bias in it. Women didn't have power, you know, and were stereotyped in all kinds of awful ways. uh the LGBT community was just invisible and forced in the closet. There was all kinds of flaws to it, but it but there was a common narrative >> that said, "Yeah, you know, we can all pledge allegiance to the flag. We can all uh you know, feel that we are fullfledged, you know, true you know, blooded Americans, uh, because we believe in these these certain these ideals. And what you're seeing right now is a reassertion of this idea of like, nope, if you don't look a certain way, you don't think a certain way, you don't practice a certain faith, um, you know, you're not a real American. And and I started to see this during my that that's what birtherism was about, right? Yeah, >> that's that's what when Sarah Palin was talking about real Americans versus >> right >> I guess the unreal Americans, it was that that was already boiling over. And I say all that because I think that um I think the majority the vast majority of Americans I still I think still believe in in that creed that sense of of unity that that that sense of a shared narrative but it's not reinforced a lot in the media. And that's where we get back to this whole issue of social media. you you don't hear that that um that sense of of what we have in common except during the Super Bowl and a couple other Yeah. maybe during the Olympics. >> A sense of unity, a sense of like people helping each other. Like I believe that what you're talking about, you know, politically in in terms of of what we spoke about earlier that people are different and some may have different beliefs, but there was a compromise that could be met and that tolerance in and of itself was is is conditional to democracy working. >> Forbearance, I think, is the the formal term that political science use. You have to put up with folks. >> That's right. >> If they as long as they're not actively hurting you, >> right, >> you've got to put up with them. and and you can battle them and and ultimately it gets sorted out in politics and the the winners get to move their agenda forward and the losers lick their wounds and come back later. >> Yeah. >> But there's always that sense of Yeah. But but we're not going to call each other vermin, >> right? >> And we're not going to try to crush you if you lose. >> That's right. But the >> we're not going to target you. But the brains have been, you know, broken, you know, through exploiting grievance and anger. And, you know, in talking about the left that the fact that so many uh decided to not vote out of protest because they didn't feel that the, you know, the situation in Israel, the ethnic cleansing of of Gaza and whatnot was not going to be dealt with by Kamla or however that goes. So you get this protest vote of people not willing to make a compromise for what you used to talk about as the incremental progress. >> Yeah. Well, and and and look, that that's the thing that I spent a lot of time talking to younger leaders about this, and it's there's no simple solution to it, but I will say that part of what a liberal democracy requires is an acceptance of partial victory, >> right? >> And not not perfection. You know, when I was in the White House, I'd sit around on any issue with my cabinet or my staff, senior staff, and we'd go around analyzing everything. And at some point, I'd say, "All right, I think I've got all the information. If we do X, is this going to make things better?" Because, and I'd say I'd tell them better is good. >> Yeah. >> We're not going to get to perfect, >> right? If if you're telling me that the Affordable Care Act is going to ensure 50 million people, do I think that's better than if we had a if we were starting from scratch and I can get a singlepayer plan instituted and and and get that through Congress and suddenly we had universal healthcare and we had taken the profit motive out of do I think that would probably be a smarter way to Absolutely. >> Right. >> But since I can't do that yet, >> I don't have the votes for that. How about this? Yeah, we can make it better. >> We can make it better, right? And and you know this um this sense that things aren't worth it unless we get everything we want. I think uh is is either a recipe for disappointment in in a democracy but also maybe in life um or it leads to this weird cynicism where you just withdraw entirely. >> That's that's >> and that's part of what happened to uh too many of our folks. Um, we we I I think we we we decided, all right, if I'm not going to get everything, then that justifies doing nothing. I It's interesting. I had a conversation with Malia, my daughter. >> Yeah. This was probably 3, four years ago. And she was saying to me, "Dad, you know, I'm talking to a bunch of my friends and and this climate change thing, you know, they're just everybody just feels like it's hopeless now. It looks like, you know, we just keep on >> throwing this crud into the air. >> People aren't listening to science and we're going to blow through these targets that the scientists tell us, you know, if we don't keep it at a 2% Celsius increase. Um, you know, we're going to have these catastrophes and it doesn't seem like there's any chance for us to do it. So, a bunch of my friends now say, you know, what's the point, >> right? >> Like, u, you know, it's too late. So, what should I tell them? And I said, well, you know what? It's true that we probably will blow through this target. Um because it's really hard for humans. It's never been done before to completely re-engineer our energy sources in one generation. >> Yeah. >> And there's greed and profit motives and just getting people organized and legacy systems. It's it's hard, but actually we're making some progress. I said, you know, if if we're able to stop the increase at 2.5 instead of three, it'll there will still be a lot of disruptions and and flooding and drought and wildfires and some bad stuff will happen. But you know what? that half a centigrade difference that could be the diff that could make a difference in in a billion people's lives, >> right? Totally. >> And I and I and so I I told her I said, "You tell your friends, >> well, that's worth working for." >> Yeah. >> You know, it it doesn't mean that we won't have some really serious problems because of climate change, >> but that's the reality. >> But that's the reality. But you know what? that half% difference that that that could be in entire coastal villages. It could be, you know, what happens in Bangladesh where hundreds of thousands or millions of people can eat instead of not eat. >> Yeah. >> It could affect whether or not people can make a living where they live as opposed to trying to cross the oceans to migrate to places where they can and and and all the political conflicts that come with that. that that mentality of understanding we should be doing better than we're doing. >> Yeah. >> We it's it's a shame that we're stuck with um this crazy, you know, short-sighted approach to climate, but well, let's let's see what we can get done. That I think is the mentality that all of us have to carry with us. Well, I I think what you were talking about about about cynicism and disengagement is now >> there's a level of fear. >> Yeah. >> That is is real, >> right? >> And and and justified. >> Totally. So, you know, what happens, you know, in terms of what we're talking about, all the things that were that you live through and and and we live through whether we were kids or not, the progress that was made, >> uh, civil rights, gay rights, women's rights, uh, you know, things, uh, policies that were meant to, you know, make an attempt at at sort of expanding democratic ideas. And you always had this core group of the other side that have been you trying to dismantle this from, you know, since the New Deal. But now, you know, and look, the the left and and people like me, you know, you you throw around the words, you know, fascism in relation to authority just willy-nilly, >> right? >> And you you talk about authoritarianism as if it's something that happens everywhere else. And I think right now you have a lot of people who are still locked into this like it could never happen here. But at some point don't we have to wake up and say it's happening? I think there is no doubt that a lot of the norms, >> civic habits, expectations, uh, institutional guard rails that we had, that we took for granted for our democracy have been weakened deliberately. I don't think they're destroyed, but I think they have been damaged and it's and and they've been systematic about it. I you know, when I when I used to travel around the world, um you know, this is back when uh democracy promotion was still bipartisan, right? >> Yeah. >> You know, George Bush was for it, Bill Clinton was for it. Yeah. >> I was for it. U Marco Rubio apparently was for it, right? So, so it it wasn't controversial for me to go to other countries and say, you know what, it it's a good idea for militaries to be under civilian control, you know. >> Yeah. Because um when when you have militaries that can direct force against their own people, that is that is inherently corrupting. >> And so when you now start seeing the politization of the military deliberately, right, >> they just landed in Chicago. >> Yeah. That that Uh what when you have what what looks like a deliberate end run around not just a concept but a law that's been around for a long time posit that says you know you don't use our military on domestic soil un unless there is a extraordinary emergency of some sort. short that when when when you see an administration suggest that ordinary street crime is an insurrection >> or >> or a terrorist act >> or a terrorist act. You know that is a genuine effort to weaken how we have understood democracy then that that was understood by Democrats and Republicans. I always try to I mean it's it's almost too easy of a thought experiment. If I had sent in the National Guard into Texas and just said, "You know what? A lot of problems in Dallas." >> You know, a lot of crime there and uh I don't care what Governor Abbott says. I'm I'm going to kind of take over law enforcement because I think things are out of control. I It is mind-boggling to me how >> Oh, yeah. >> Fox News would have responded. >> Yeah. I I I mean there were times where I remember there there was there was a moment I don't remember what year this was where the military just had regular exercises in Texas out of one of the bases Fort Wood or >> and uh and I Ted Cruz and and a number of other folks were out there lending credence to the fact that I was preparing for you know the the whole black helicopter one world government I was about to take over Texas >> and this is like a sitting US senator was like kind of >> retweeting about what what what's going on with these exercises >> secret ops >> I didn't even have any I I didn't monitor military exercises because you know what that was the Pentagon's job that was the secretary of defense and the joint chiefs of staff and the cocoms that was their job to to prepare and focus on military readiness and then they'd report to me. The the point is that we have blown through just in the last six months a whole range of of not not simply assumptions but rules and laws and and practices that were put in place to ensure that uh you know nobody's above the law and that we don't use the federal government to simply reward our friends and and and punish our enemies. And the same thing's obviously happening in the Justice Department. So people are right to be concerned. the the interesting thing and and and what I've been trying to do when I've been speaking about this publicly is just to remind folks, >> you know, just as was true during the McCarthy era and and has been true throughout our history. What's required in these situations is a few folks standing up and giving courage to other folks and then more people stand up and kind of go like, "Yeah, no, that's that's not who we are. That's not that's not that's not our idea of America. M >> we we don't want masked, you know, folks with rifles and and and machine guns on patrolling our streets. >> Yeah. >> You know, we we we we want >> we want cops on the beat who know the >> neighborhood, >> local neighborhood >> and and the kids around and and and that's how we keep the peace around here, you know. We we don't want uh you know kangaroo courts and trumped up charges. That's what happens in in other places that we used to scold. >> Yeah. >> For doing that. You know, we we want like like our court system and our justice department and our prosecutors to be and our FBI to be just playing things straight and looking at the facts and not meddling in in in politics the way uh the way we've seen later lately. And I think if enough people start not not being in a fetal position, but also not being just not worrying about it and and detached from it, but but being vigilant, but also saying, "H, you know what? >> We Yeah, we can stand up to this. You know, >> we can call it like we see it." >> Yeah. You know, you know, we need we need people who have whatever platforms they have to be able to say, "No, that's not who we are." And to be willing to get attacked on X. >> Yeah. >> By whoever for doing that. And And it's not easy. >> Yeah. Because sometimes you fear for your life. >> Yeah. and and and you know there's this whole process of doxing and >> you know I always used to Michelle and I talk about um the fact that >> you know a lot of our friends we used to call them civilians cuz if they got criticized you know on the comment page about something Yeah they'd be freaked out and we're like you know what I mean we we've had so much you know incoming over the course of 10 years. Now, we chose it or at least I chose it. Mich as Michelle will point out and then she was subjected to it. >> Um that that yeah, we you do get a tougher skin, but I understand how it's hard when suddenly your email, you know, your email or or your you phone is filled up with hostile, nasty, >> trolling garbage. >> Trolling garbage. Right. And and you've gotten used to it, too. But I but I tell you, you know, it's not like we're not at the stage where you have to be like Nelson Mandel and be in a 10 by 12 jail cell for 27 years >> and and break rocks. We're not at that point >> right now. There's just a little discomfort. And so when I say for example, if you're a law firm, you know, you saying to we're going to represent who we want and we're going to stand up for uh what we think is our core mission of upholding the law and maybe we'll lose some business for that, but that's what we believe. That's what's needed. You if you're a university president, say, "Well, you know what? this will hurt if we lose some grant money from the federal government. But >> that's that's what endowments are for. Let's let's see if we can ride this out because what we're not going to do is compromise our basic uh academic independence. If you're a business and you say, you know what, you know, we're we're we're not we're gonna we we think it's important because of what this country is to hire people from different backgrounds and and and we're not going to be bullied into saying that we can only, you know, hire people or promote people based on some criteria that's been cooked up by Steve Miller. >> Yeah. you know, we all have this capacity, I think, to to take a stand and and and ultimately, this goes back to something I said earlier about convictions. You know, if if con if convictions don't cost anything, then they're really just kind of fashion. They're not really conviction. And and I do think that our generation, yours and mine, Mark, cuz again, we're about the same age, we were so accustomed to things kind of getting better consistently over our lifetimes, less little less racist, a little less sexist, less homophobic, little more generous. that um it was easy, I think, to say, "Well, yeah, I'm a I'm a progressive, but it didn't really cost us anything." >> You know, we we could take positions on things that we thought were um >> correct. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> But they were never really tested. And so, well, here here's the test. and and and and and I think I think ultimately a lot of people will pass, but I I think they haven't realized yet. No, we're being tested right now. I I think people and that includes young people, right? Like I understand there are consequences to the choices that we're making. If if you decide not to vote, that's a consequence. If if you are a Hispanic man and you're you're frustrated about inflation and so you decided, ah, you know what, all that rhetoric about Trump doesn't matter. I'm just mad about inflation. And now, you know, your sons are being stopped in LA because they look Latino, >> maybe incarcerated for a few days, >> and maybe, you know, without the ability to call anybody, might just be locked up. >> Well, that's that's your that's a test. there there's a there's some clarity that's that's coming about right now that I wish you know it'd be great if we weren't tested this way but you know what it's um we probably need to be shaken out of our complacency anyway. >> Yeah. And it it what's interesting about the test and standing up and what you said the difference between fash fashion and uh you know standing up is that people if people are comfortable in their own lives and and they can convince themselves that it doesn't affect them. >> I mean that's the biggest challenge. >> Yeah. and and also on the list of of you know universities and uh law firms and businesses is that you know corporations yes >> are are a different animal in in relation to the bottom line and to whatever which way the wind blows politically and that certainly with the destruction of of DEI policy they're not beholdened to uh to tow a democratic line and that that becomes the biggest fear in terms of certain freedoms. >> Well, look, I mean, we you saw what happened with Kimmel and and >> I mean the consolidation of media. It's interesting. We were talking about there there used to be sort of a monoculture. Yeah. Three TV stations. >> Sure. >> And PBS. But you know be partly because it was coming out of World War II and I think people had been sufficiently scared and traumatized by what had happened in terms of propaganda and Hitler and all this. >> Yeah. We set up a bunch of structures that created journalistic standards and factchecking and clear lines between opinion and fact and uh and and now we've got just as media is just as concentrated but none of the rules. Right. >> Right. And it can feed some of our worst impulses and and and tell each segment of people um out there uh you know just feed back their own biases and prejudices back to them and and and make money on it. it. This whole point about corporations, this is something I've been thinking a lot about also, is that um I do think so much of what's been driving political instability everywhere is this widening massive gulf in >> opportunity, wealth, income, right? uh within countries, between countries. Um I mean, the idea that that some people now have three400 billion dollars on their way to a trillion dollars and you've got uh you ordinary people still trying to figure out how to >> eat >> eat and and and pay the rent. Uh in that is driving a lot of this, right? And and part of what I think we have to spend more time thinking about is some old-fashioned values that that aren't based just on money and how much you got and material con uh you know concerns and and and I'm uh I am somebody who believes that you know market based economics is actually not only the best way to create enough stuff for everybody to be okay, but I also think it it's tied to freedom. State-run economics generally don't work pretty work very well. But so much of our culture now, so much of what we teach our kids is geared around buying stuff and having stuff and posting it on Instagram and then >> Right. It's it's winning to some, >> right? Winning is now defined solely by material uh goods, how much you got and to some degree fame. that be that's become another currency. Right. >> Right. >> And and I do think part of what our conversation needs to be more about is and and it used to come out of the church or you know out of you know um the stories we told our kids >> was this sense of oh you know what character matters, honesty matters. community and family and loyalty and kindness matters. Those are the stories that that's part of our political project, right? Is is reaffirming that stuff. I I I think you were asking how I navigated some of these um conflicts and and I'd get attacked from the right and I'd get attacked from the left. One way I did that was trying to tell people what I really thought. But, you know, the other thing was I actually had some pretty old-fashioned values, even if I had, you know, progressive or new fangled ideas. >> Yeah. >> You know, if I talked about trans issues, I wasn't talking to down to people and saying, "Oh, you're a bigot." I'd say, "You know what? It's tough enough being a teenager. Let's treat all kids decently. Why would we want to see kids bullied >> or shamed >> or shamed? Why would we want to do that? Why wouldn't we want to just, you know, what if it was our kid? >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And and I think spending more time talking about why those values are important. Um not being cynical about them, not being ironic about it. >> Yeah. But saying, "No, no, that stuff matters." >> Sure, >> that would make a difference. >> All right. Well, we've got our work cut out for us. >> Yeah. >> You know what? I I think we're going to be okay. And I think that part of the reason you had such a big fan base during this 16-year run is there was a core decency to you and the conversations you had, maybe slightly edited by Brendan. >> Yeah. Thankfully, >> that that I I think speaks to who we are and yeah, we can't take this stuff for granted. But I my my experience is most people are really decent >> and and and I think that's why when they hear somebody else who is it it uh it gives them courage and gives them hope and and uh you should be proud of having done that. >> Well, thank you, Mr. President, and thank you and I'm I'm glad I made the trip. If you came to my house the first time, I'll come here and I hope to uh talk to you again. >> We'll meet uh halfway next time. >> Okay, buddy. Thanks, man. >> All right.

More than a decade ago, I sat down with Marc Maron in his garage to tape something new called a podcast. This time, he came to me to record his last episode. We talked about the power of conviction, decency in an age of division, and the true story of America. Here's our conversation on the final episode of WTF podcast with Marc Maron. #marcmaron #barackobama