Norway’s Shocking Response to a Mass Child Killer

In my new book, I talk about this trial that um took place in Norway when there was, you know, Norway has so much less crime, so much less violent crime. The United States does. They incarcerate way fewer people. They incarcerate them less in less harsh institutions for much shorter periods of time. Um and it's very rare for them to have like a mass shooting event. And but they did they had this guy Anders Brie who um shot I think 60 children on a um an island. They were there for a summer camp. It was the worst mass murder in Norway's history. Um this is someone who has had like who had terrible genetic and environmental luck. he had >> um a very unstable mother and it also he was described as someone who was antisocial from the time he was three or four. Norway has this incredible wraparound social welfare state and um so you can see the >> high visibility >> the notes from the social worker being like this child is aggressive and violent that other kids won't be aren't allowed to play with him because he keeps torturing their pets when he's five. So even in this in this environment where there's incredible social resources, this person still grew up and still grew up to be violent. I found the trial fascinating um because they ultimately sentenced him to the maximum sentence in Norway, which is 21 years. >> Doesn't seem like a lot. It's what, like 4 months per child. and they gave him he's in the maximum security prison which um there was an Instagram meme which is is this a Norwegian prison or a London hotel room and people can't tell the difference between them. The only thing that puts it away is the security camera dome on the ceiling of the prison room. >> So things that seem quite cushy for an American system. Um and in the trial you see the reckoning of a society where they are saying this person did a horrible thing. We have our maximum retributive impulses towards him. Of course we do. He murdered our children >> and he is still one of us. And how will it corrupt us in our culture to indulge those maximum impulses? So, we want to keep our society safe, but we're recognizing that he's still one of us. He's still Norwegian. He's still part of our society. And from an American perspective, it was wild like reading the this trial transcript because it was a way of feeling that retribution but not leading entirely with it and also recognizing the inherent humanity of this person who's part of their society. >> Do you think somebody that shot 60 kids has that much humanity? >> I think we all have that humanity. I mean, I think that's what it comes down to. I think that every single person, even when they do horrible things, is still human. And and also that even if they don't, that me treating them like they don't does something to my humanity. >> That seems to be two different arguments. Um, one >> are related. >> Yeah, of course. Um, I'm trying to separate them out. I mean, yeah, I was going to try I was about to say something before that my ability to flip empathy into pleasure at a defector's pain pathway is defunct. I always seem to on the side of I'm so sorry for that person. always always >> you've managed to find an example where not just one but it tends to be my threshold for it tends to be a bit higher. So I'm thinking about this person that shot 60 kids the residual amount of humanity in that person seems to be very low for me in how I would see them. That to me seems to be the kind of thing even if you were to say what does this do for society outside of it that is such a heinous crime I'd say it it it is so far beyond even the normality of abnormal crime that that should be a you don't get to come out again and that would be a pro-social as far as I can see that would be a pro-social thing to do first off as a hey we have a limit Here in Sweden, >> Norway. >> Norway. Here in Norway, we have a limit. We may be very loving and a fun accent like a typewriter covered in foil kicked downstairs, but this person has gone beyond the limit. Uh therefore, other people shouldn't. So, I guess um >> yeah, and I >> warning them warning them off. But the other one being like the that is such an an extreme crime. >> Yeah. the likelihood of rep even if even if his desire to murder children drops by one per year over the next six decades he still wants to murder a child like that's I'm aware that's not the way that like a fall off the murder murder desire works >> I got this weird like like line graph in my head of course but it's like that murder desire inertia or whatever the [ __ ] but >> to me that seems weak that seems wimpy and I don't think I don't think that that is a sufficient deterrent to others and I also don't think it is a uh sufficient amount of time to basically quarantine this person. >> So there's so many different threads in your argument and I I want to pull them apart because I I think they're each interesting and and in some ways it's like you just touched on what are why do we incarcerate people? Like why do we have a criminal legal system? Like what is the purpose of it, right? and one is just containment, just protecting the other people from this person, right? Um I do believe in Norway it's possible that if at the end of the sentence he's judged to still be a risk to others, then he could be that sentence could be lengthened for the sake of other people. >> Um one is um some sort of expression of retribution like I don't care if you could be better in the future. I don't care if you had a you're gonna have a >> you lost that privilege. >> You've lost the privilege. I >> you did something that's beyond the pale and now I you deserve you deserve to not live. You deserve to suffer. You deserve like whatever that is. And then one of them is rehabilitation. So given that someone has done this, is there some intervention by the state, by other people that can prevent it from happening again? Repair essentially repair this person and repair their relationship to the community um such that they don't commit any more violent crimes. Um, and we don't stick with like we don't have one lane. Like your answer combined all of those things where you're like, but h like what if he's still a danger and also he did such a horrible thing, maybe it doesn't matter if he's a danger and also if he if this is such a long rooted problem, how could he ever hope to change? >> Yep. >> Um, and I'm really interested by the word weak. Like what is it? It's weak by the states. It's weak by the juror. Like what what is the is it reflects weak social bonds? Like what is what is being weak where? Like that's an interesting >> uh it is insufficient uh when held up. You asked me earlier on this person stabbed one guy with a box and you're like yeah I gave him 20 years. Homeboy managed to do it to 60 children. >> Yes. >> Um, have you considered the role of 120 parents needing to feel vindicated? >> Yeah. I mean, I think there's and this idea of vindication and also this sense of um I I guess I should say like I was very moved by this. I'm not saying that you're defending the guy just getting the doing doing the thing or getting the 20 years. >> And I do think it speaks to a very different way of thinking of the role and function of punishment in a society because it is so radically different from what we would do in the United States. But I just want to echo like I'm a mother. I have three kids. Like if I were one of those parents, would I be able to cooly sit here and talk to you about not letting the retributive instinct lead? >> I'm not sure. Like the only time I've ever like blacked out in anger was when someone hurt one of my children. Like I think there's a really basic thing in there. And I think the other thing that you're getting at is >> um we signal the value of people by how much we're willing to punish others who've hurt them. Mhm. >> So you know when we say like one of the one of the things that made that that um uh denotes or it comes along with the status of being an enslaved person in a culture is that their masters get to hurt them and no one there's no punishment for that. Right. So, so I I think one of the things you're picking up on when you say like what about those parents >> is does it signal something about the value of those children or the value of those children to their parents to their society to the collective if someone is not punished for hurting them? Um, a lot of times when we someone does something outrageous, not not even outrageous as mass murder, we say, "Who do you think you are?" And I think that's saying, "Who do you think I am that you think you can get away with treating me like this?" So, we assert the value of people, correct? >> That's part of the social signal of punishment. And I think that's why it wrinkles as and I I don't think there is any I don't think there's any response to harm, especially harm at that level where there isn't going to be some remainder that feels unsatisfying. Either we're going to >> kill burn him and kill him. String him up and burn him and kill him. >> What does that do to us, right? Like I think that really I think what does that do to our society's again honoring of the inherent value of every human if we are so easy for anyone to say string them up you know good riddance like I there there is a really the our response to our most antisocial people can bring out the most callous and and unemotional and like um antisocial instincts of ourselves where you would never and under any other circumstances be like let them die >> but like in this case it comes so easily to us. Um, so again, I don't think there's a per I don't think there is a perfect solution to the the problem of harm, but I do think by looking to other societies, we can begin to think, well, what are we overemphasizing in our in our approach to this, which is very um people deserve to suffer and our job is just to figure out how much they deserve to suffer. Before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for as long as I can remember now because it is the simplest way I found to cover my bases and not overthink nutrition. And that is why I partnered with them. Just one scoop gives you 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food ingredients in a single drink. Now, they've taken it a step further with AG1 NextGen. The same one scoop once a day ritual, but this time backed by four clinical trials. 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Chris and Dr Kathryn Paige Harden discuss Norway’s shocking ruling to one of their country’s most prolific murderers. Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/