Israel and the Holy Land with Historian Barry Strauss

Judea was a very complicated place. Now, Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel, but they're not the only people there. This is the independent state that finds itself in a civil war. They hate each other and they turn to the Romans who have just conquered Syria in the year 63 BC. Herod with the help of the Romans conquers Jerusalem and is established as king of Judea. When Herod dies, this is the signal for a Jewish rebellion against Rome. >> I imagine once you've slaughtered the Roman garrison. Yeah. >> Forgive my French. You're kind of right. >> You're kind of Yeah. >> Is there anything at all from the ancient history of this land that might be worth people knowing in relation to today's ongoing conflict? >> Sure. >> Before we start, a very quick recommendation. We know our audience and every so often something comes along that we think you'll genuinely want to see. October 8 is a documentary you can watch today on Amazon Prime, Apple TV or YouTube Premium. It looks at the explosion of anti-semitism on college campuses and across social media in the aftermath of the October 7 attacks and examines how extremist networks and foreign actors have shaped narratives inside American institutions and public discourse. Featuring interviews with prominent voices from politics, media, and culture. It asks serious questions about how we got here and what it means for the future. If you care about what's happening in our culture right now, this film is worth your time. Head to October8film.com to find out more. >> Baris Strauss, welcome back. >> Thank you. Great to be here. >> Great to have you back on the show. You're one of our absolute favorite historians. Our last episode on the R Roman Empire. absolutely crushed it as you know. >> Uh and I don't know if you noticed Israel has been in the news a little bit. >> A little bit. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it so just so happens that your latest book is called Jews versus Rome. So we thought the ancient history of what has since become the Holy Land. Yes. >> Uh would be an amazing conversation. >> Great. >> Here we are. Yes. >> So um talk to us about that part of the world and also Jews. when do Jews come into existence and are they living in that area at the time like talk to us about that. So you know the earliest evidence we have of Jews or rather of Israel comes from uh the year around the year 1210 BCE or BC either one is okay and uh it's an Egyptian steel that talks about the defeat of Israel. That's the earliest evidence that we have. So, uh, let me just preface this by saying I'm going to talk as a secular historian and nothing that I say, uh, should shake anyone's faith or be meant to, uh, challenge anyone's faith. But from a secular point of view, >> lovely trigger warning. >> Yes, trigger warnings. Thank you. Yes. Uh, uh, I try to remember to say that. But from a secular point of view, we have this early evidence of uh, of Israel uh, at the end of the Bronze Age. And then uh going ahead jumping ahead a few centuries to the 9th century BC. Uh we have some additional references to Israel from inscriptions uh from uh one called the from Moab. So what's now Jordan, we have an Assyrian one. They talk about Israel. And uh on one uh reading, not all uh scholars would read it this way. They also talk about the house of David. That's from the uh 9th century. Then as we go ahead in time, we have lots of archaeological evidence. We have names that refer to names that appear in the Bible. Um, we have uh letters that come from around the beginning of the 6th century BC, so the early 500s, uh, that are clearly referring to Jews. They talk about the God of the Jews, uh, the God who sometimes referred to in English as Jehovah, YHW. We don't know how to pronounce it. Um, and so they're there. Uh, there's lots of evidence of there being there, uh, lots of evidence of being there being there in the land of Israel. As we move on in time and as we get to the period that I wrote about, which is the 1st century BC, in the first two centuries CE or AD, uh uh an absolute abundance of evidence for their for their presence there and for the presence of Jews not just in uh ancient Israel but also in the diaspora. So uh in various parts of the Roman Empire, mostly the Eastern Roman Empire. So, Egypt, Libya, Cyprus, Syria, uh Turkey, Greece, and then further east in uh what's now Iraq, ancient Mesopotamia, uh large Jewish settlements, uh as as well there. >> And uh the land of Israel, is it roughly around where Israel is today? >> It is roughly. So, if we're going to look at a map of uh Israel at the time of King Herod uh in the 1st century BC, uh it would include all of what is now central and most of northern Israel and the West Bank as well, Judea and Samaria, but it would also include part of Syria and Lebanon and uh part of western Jordan. It would not include the negative desert. So, it would end around where Bereva is. So, in south central Israel. So roughly roughly same as >> and so the period in which you you talk about in the book this land is it called Judea at this point? >> It's called Judea >> and it's under Roman control. >> Uh it becomes under Roman control. So um so a couple of important events just add so important event is the Makabian revolt. So in the year 167 so Judea um it was uh uh if we go back to the 6th century BC. So we have the neoablonians conquering uh Judea, destroying Jerusalem in the temple and deporting the elite to southern uh Iraq, the so-called to Babylon, the famous Babylonian captivity. And then in the year 539, that empire is conquered by Cyrus the Great uh the founder of the Akeminid Persian Empire and he liberates the Jews and allows them to go back to Judea and reestablish Jerusalem and the temple. Some of them do, many of them stay in Babylon where they're living quite well. And so we have these two communities. Uh Judea is a Persian province for about 200 years. Then it's conquered by Alexander the Great. And it comes under Greco Macedonian rule. And it goes back and forth between the Salucids, the dynasty ruling Syria, and the Tomies, the dynasties ruling Egypt, both Greekeaking dynasties. Then in the year 167 there is a revolt uh by the family of uh the Mcabes and they're successful in uh winning their independence from what is now the decaying salucid Syrian Empire and by the year 140 they are autonomous and uh by around the year 120 they are an independent state. This is really big and important because it's the first independent Jewish state in centuries. There had been a kingdom of Israel, a kingdom of Judah earlier in the Iron Age, but now we've got this uh reestablished independent Jewish state. Very important because this, as far as we can tell, this is really the period when they establish the Torah as the law of the land that will affect that will be in in effect for uh everyone who lives there. And uh they extend the area that they control. They conquer people who are converted either voluntarily or involuntarily to Judaism. So Judaism becomes uh more of a thing, more of an established thing. Uh the territory of Judea becomes larger. This is the independent state that um finds itself in a civil war. The two there are two claimments to the throne in the middle of the first century BC. H what do they do? They hate each other and they turn to the Romans who have just conquered Syria in the year 63 BC. It's Pompy, Pompy the Great, Caesar's great rival to be and they say choose one of us to be the ruler. It's also uh there's a report that a uh a third group of Jews go to Pompy and say we hate them both. Please uh choose a committee of Jews to run the place under Roman uh supervision. He goes for one of the two brothers and uh he then invades Judea. Um and uh is invited into Jerusalem and lays siege to the temple. It's a siege that lasts several months. He takes the temple, enters the holy of holies to the horror of uh the people there. Uh he swears that he didn't take anything with him. No souvenirs, didn't touch any of the gold or silver there. Um and uh he punishes Judea by decreasing it in size and demoting the king to what is called a tetrarch. I guess we'd call him a local ruler. Uh and Judea is now under the thumb of Rome, but not for long because the losing side looks to uh Iran. So there series of ancient Iranian empires and you can stop me at any point cuz I can. >> There's no need. You're okay. You you we don't really need us here. You just series of ancient Iranian empires. Uh now uh there's one that has replaced the first one. It's called the Parthion Empire or Partha. There's still a large Jewish community living in uh living in Partha. There many connections uh constantly people going back and forth between uh Partha and Judea. And so the people who've lost out to the Romans are looking for help from Partha. They get it about 25 years later. This is after the assassination of Julius Caesar 44 BC. Roman Empire is in turmoil and a Parthion prince now invades the Roman Empire. He conquers Syria, part of southern Asia Minor and also conquers Judea and puts a the representative of the other faction in the dynasty on the throne and now makes Judea a uh a Parthion province, an Iranian province again. And uh the Romans don't take this lying down. >> Uh a representative of the Roman faction in Judea now makes his way to Rome and convinces the Romans to make him king. This is the time of the um dispute which becomes a civil war between Mark Anthony and Octavian, the future Augustus. The one thing they agree on is they're going to choose this Jew and make him king of Judea, which the Roman Senate does. Uh they give a banquet for him in Rome. It's probably not kosher. And his name, I think you will know, his name is Herod. >> He's a young guy, very ambitious, uh, very talented both politically and militarily. And he makes his way back to Judea. Uh, and then devotes himself to conquering it for himself and for Rome. It's a long process. It takes three years. The Romans intervene. They defeat the Parthion prince. actually they behead him in a battle and they ship his head around to various places saying uh I think the rebellion's over folks. Um and finally uh um Herod uh with the help of the Romans conquers Jerusalem and is established as king of Judea in the year 37 BC. >> Now in the book you paint a very you you describe Herod Herod wonderfully. He's got many strengths. >> Yes. got a few, should we say, character defects. >> He has a few character defects. >> So So let's delve into it because he's a he's a huge figure in both in history and in religion, >> right? Yes. >> Particularly the Christian religion. So let's talk about Herod. >> Yes. Among U one of the things that Christians and Jews agree about is they both hate Herod. And he's reviled in the New Testament, but also in the Talmud. Uh and yet so Herod is a really interesting guy. He's a super smart politician. And uh he first of all he's a total survivor. Uh early on he is uh a client of Mark Anthony. He is in Mark Antony's pocket. If the Romans had pockets uh they are like this uh uh but Mark Anthony loses the battle of Acti. Luckily for Herod he's not there because Cleopatra hates him and she won't let him go to Actium. She gives him a a task kind of beneath his dignity uh while the battle of vacuum is fought but turns out to be great for him he's not there and when the victor Octavian Caesar uh comes to the near east and he comes to Judea um and even before he comes to Judea when he's on a Greek island um Herod goes there hat in hand so to speak uh sackcloth and ashes uh throws himself at Octavian's mercy he's very smart and he says Yeah, I was Mark Anony's best friend, but you know what? I'm a great friend and now I'll be your great best friend. You want somebody to defends Rome's interest in the east? I'm your man. Octavian buys it. And now Herod as king wants to uh indicate that he's the guy uh who can really help Rome in the east. And uh Octaven becomes the emperor Augustus. He buys it. He thinks this is great. And Herod is his man. So Herod shows it in a variety of ways. He's going to rebuild um uh Judea. He's going to rebuild it as a place that's friendly to Rome as well as to the Jews. And he does it by uh creating a new city, a port city, Cesaria by the sea. Cesaria Maritima. Very interesting place. If you go to Israel, you can visit it today. The ruins are quite substantial. And he builds it as a Roman city. uh he has his engineers build an artificial harbor which is quite impressive and remarkable but also the centerpiece of the city is a temple to Augustus and it's got a hippodromeome which is also going to be used for gladiatorial games uh the act games commemorating the um battle of Actum there are Jews living there but it is mostly a pagan city he builds another pagan city uh it's near uh the modern-day city of Nablus on the west bank in Samaria. It's called Sabaste, which means Augusta in Greek. Also a pagan city to Augustus. Finally, on the road to Damascus, um he builds a spectacular temple whose ruins you can see today, a temple of Augustus. So, he's got Augustus coming and going in Jerusalem. He'd love to build a temple of to Augustus, but he knows he can't do that. >> Um instead, and and Herod's a Jew. Uh he's a Jew of uh descended from one of the groups who was conquered by uh the Makabian kings and that converted to Judaism, but he is a Jew. His mother, by the way, is an Arab um so he's part Jew, part Arab um but a Jew. And he his most famous building thing is the temple. He rebuilds the temple, which was not so spectacular when it was uh reerected by the uh the refugees who came from from Babylon. He built it to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest and most spectacular religious site in the ancient world. And part of the foundation wall for the temple still stands. Uh it's the famous western wall or whailing wall in Jerusalem. And actually it's bigger than that, but that's the part that's most famous and and venerated by Jews. >> Barry, can I do what I do best, which is ask an uber stupid question? >> Not at all. >> Um what is the significance of the temple beyond its religious function? Why is it such a to this day a point of great importance and contention? >> So the temple for the Jews is the house of God. Um it's uh the house where God comes down to earth um and where people can talk to him. For a Jew in the ancient world um you know a pilgrimage to the temple is as important as a pilgrimage as the Hajj is today for a Muslim. So going to Jerusalem and going to the temple is as important as going to as important as going to Mecca. And um according to the Torah, according to the the Jewish law, uh if you have sins that you need to atone for, you go to the temple and make a sacrifice. If you're a wealthy man, it will be or woman, because women can do this, too, it will be uh something expensive. It could even be a bull. But if you're a poor person, it's going to be a dove or a pigeon is what you would sacrifice at the temple. And there are three great pilgrimage festivals uh in in the year. There's still three great festivals today. Passover uh in the spring, uh shàuote weeks, uh Pentecost uh in um the beginning of the summer, and then Sukkot, which literally means booths uh in the fall. It's a harvest festival, but also commemorating the Exodus in which the children of Israel lived in booths uh in the Sinai desert. So you um uh the equivalent of the Hajj would be going to Jerusalem for one of these three great pilgrim festivals. Going to the temple. Going to the temple is uh not a simple thing. You would first purify yourself um at the pool of Salom uh which is physically in the lower part of the city. And then you would take the pilgrim road up to the temple and there would be singing. uh there would be priests who would chant psalms and prayers and uh the temple that uh Herod built was quite spectacular and there are various ways various levels or stages of getting into it. So it would be uh an extraordinary event. Going into this year I told myself I was finally going to stop guessing about my health. Like most people I want more energy, better focus, and to be still strong and sharp years from now. But every time I've gone to the doctor, I walk out with basically nothing. Everything's fine. Drink more water, sleep a bit more. No real insight, no plan, just vibes. That's why Superpower stood out to me. Superpower makes it simple to actually understand what's going on inside your body. You do one blood draw either at home or in a nearby lab, and they analyze over a 100 biomarkers. That's heart health, hormones, metabolism, vitamins, minerals, and even environmental toxins. 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But it's all absolutely but it's a way to uh cement his relationship with the Jews. So uh for the Romans he's built temples to Augustus. Uh to the Jews he has rebuilt the temple in the most spectacular way. And the Talmud which is written several centuries later and which is very anti-Herod says if you never saw Herod's temple you never saw a beautiful building. There are many descriptions of how quite spectacular it was and how Jews from around the around the world would um donate to the temple gold and silver doors. It's and various ornaments etc and so forth. Um so uh and he Herod makes Jerusalem brings its greatest period of prosperity until the 20th century. Um it's never as prosperous or as important a city again. And that's so fascinating because you have this ruler who is a Jew who built this incredible temple which >> is still revered to this day or a part of it is >> made it as wealthy as as it has been and for a significant period of time as it will ever be. >> Right? >> And yet he's absolutely loathed and despised. Why is that? >> Okay, he's loathed and despised for a variety of reasons. For one reason, uh, if you are a pious Jew, you think that Judea, the land of Israel, is the holy land. And he's desecrating it by building pagan temples, uh, to other gods because there's only one God. Uh and he's also doing things that uh a pious Jew would abominate like having gladiatorial games, killing other human beings, killing animals in, you know, um in in in in that which is part of their games as well, killing beasts, killing prisoners uh in that way. All of that uh is absolutely anathema to uh a pious Jew. But he's also a tyrant who uh he kills Jewish sages. He uh massacres people. Uh one of the things that he does is he puts an eagle up on the entrance way to the temple. And uh late in his reign, a group of uh of students uh I call them Torah students. Um they repel up the temple wall and try to take the eagle down. They're arrested and Herod has them and their teachers executed. Uh so he does that as well. And finally, he's a monster to his own family. He has one of his many wives executed. He has his three most talented sons executed because he feels they're a threat to his rule and they probably are a threat to his rule. Um so um and uh when he's dying uh one of his last uh commands is that he wants the elite of Judea, the religious elite, all to be executed. Fortunately, after his death, that command is not carried out. But he is reviled for all of those reasons. And he builds forts all around Judea, uh strongholds. What's the point of these strongholds? places for him to take refuge in when the population uh rises up against him. Um so for all those reasons he's he's reviled a tyrannical figure. >> And it's really interesting in the book because you say when he's dying he has this horrible condition like he's like a a rotting flesh. Yes. >> And everybody and practically everybody in the population goes yeah he deserved that. >> Absolutely. Well you know I think that in some ways he can be compared to Stalin. Uh I mean he is a incredibly talented politician, a builder u in some ways uh the guy who saves the country but in other ways he's a monster. Um and I think that there uh there certainly were people in Judea who liked Herod u but there are many who disliked him as well. The other thing about Herod and it needs to be said is that Judea was a very complicated place. Now Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel but they're not the only people there. There are other ethnic groups. So, first of all, there are Greek speakers in this period. There are series of cities in Judea outside of Jerusalem. And many, if not most of them have Greekeaking majorities. Um, some of these are colonists who came when the Macedonians and Greeks conquered the place. Some of them are Syrians who have moved south into the city. Some of them are native Canaanites um who uh were not Jewish and who adopted Greek. They don't like the Jewish rulers. U there's also the Samaritans who live in Samaria. They follow the Torah. Um but they do not recognize the supremacy of Jerusalem. They do not accept the temple there. They have their own temple on Mount Garazim outside of Nablus. There are also groups, small groups of Arabs in the north and in the south. And finally, there are the Idans who live in what's now central southern Israel. They've converted to Jerusalem. Uh Judaism, excuse me. They've converted to Judaism, but they're also a semi somewhat se somewhat separate ethnic group. And there are many Jews who don't like the fact that Herod makes deals with all these people >> and he wants to be their king as well as the king of the Jews. So there are all sorts of reasons why people don't like him. >> And is there also an element of him being seen as a foreign sto? >> Yes. uh both because of his relationship with Rome and because he's half Idan and half Arab. So just as Stalin was seen as a Georgian and not really a Russian by people who don't like him, so Herod is seen as a foreigner by people who don't like him. >> And it's really interesting because we're talking about this man who was a fantastic politician, strong leader, makes astute decisions. >> Yes. Yet when it comes to possibly the most important decision of any leader's career, which is to appoint a worthy successor, >> he kind of makes a hash of it. >> He does make a hash of it. Absolutely. And you know, his his fear of his own sons is the undoing of his dynasty because after he goes, he is uh replaced by a troa, three of his sons. Uh Augustus doesn't really isn't really all that impressed by any of them. One rules over the central part of the kingdom, the main part of the kingdom. One rules over Galilee and uh part of the Golan and another rules over part of the Golan and parts that are in Lebanon and Syria. So the kingdom is divided up among the three of them. And uh the one uh and immediately when Herod dies, this is the signal for a Jewish rebellion against Rome. Um, and they're very unimpressed by the main son who's going to replace him. And the governor of Syria, who is uh young, vigorous, very good soldier, immediately comes down to Judea and suppresses the rebellion quite brutally, ending up the last act as he crucifieses two crucifies 2,000 people around the walls of Jerusalem. That makes the point. Um, but Augustus gets the picture that the guy who's he's appointed to replace Herod just isn't all that impressive. And after about a decade, he fires him. You're out. Uh, and sends him to exile in the south of France. Not too bad, but not like being the ruler of of uh, Judea. And now Judea, the main part of it becomes a Roman province in the year six, which is a signal for another revolt which is also repressed quite handily. >> And and I think it's worth mentioning at this point because one of the things that I read in the book actually was how this society, so the Jewish society, the elites weren't the military. They weren't people who you would normally associate with being the people making the decisions, >> right? They were they were the religious people. They were the priests. >> Yes. So um I mean there are Jews who are in the military. Herod has an army which uh consists of uh has a many different peoples but there's a large Jewish contingent in it. Um but this is a society that's quite different than some of the societies that the Romans conquer. So when the Romans conquer the Greeks, they conquer people who are pretty similar to them in their religion uh in their militarism in uh their desire to build public buildings. uh and to hold public office and succeed in that way. The Jews are different. I mean, this is a society in which exactly as you say, Francis, uh there are there are it's a priestly society uh that has a different uh attitude towards what they want to get ahead. Now, that being said, there are Jews who assimilate and there are Jews who want to be like the Romans, succeed in Roman society. There's still two Jewish uh rulers in the northern part of the country. uh and they collaborate with Rome. Herod sends his sons to Rome to be educated. So uh and many of the wealthy uh are quite content to work with Rome. >> Uh but ordinary people are different. >> Yeah. So um Herod dies, his sons, the the less useful of them take over. >> Eventually Rome goes, uh let's not do any of this. You're going to be controlled by us. What time period are we up to at this point? What year? So, we're up to the year 6 AD, 6CE. >> A quite an important event is approaching if my history doesn't >> Yes. The uh u I I think you're referring to the mission of Jesus Christ. Yes. Yes. So, Jesus, we think was born in the year 4 BC, the last year of Herod's rule. Um and uh we think his mission comes to a culmination around the year 30 AD. Um and um Jesus is there are this is uh a period it's the golden age of apocalyptic vision and the golden age of messianism in Jewish culture that is by apocalypse the idea that um the world as we know it is going to come to an end and that an age of redemption is going to begin and that the kingdom of God is going to begin. And >> what does that mean? What's the kingdom of God? What's the kingdom of God? Well, it means first of all that the house of David will be restored and that a descendant of King David will become the king Messiah. Um, and that uh he will bring in the redemption uh that God will rule that everyone will recognize uh the rule the validity of the one God that the Jewish people will be free and independent and able to practice their religion uh without rule by Romans or anyone else. And there are various figures who claim to be the Messiah. Now, uh the Messiah was thought to be a human being, a descendant of the house of David, not uh not a godly, not a figure uh who was more than human, not a divine figure, certainly of divine inspiration, but a human being. And there are many people who believe this at the time. Jesus is in some ways very similar to these figures. I mean he is someone who says that the kingdom of God is at hand that the redemption is at hand. Uh and he is going to usher it in. But unlike some of these figures uh he is not an advocate of armed rebellion against Rome. Far from it. Um he is an advocate of spiritual resistance, spiritual uh rebellion if you will. uh Jesus is like uh like and different than other figures from this period. So one thing about the Jews um the Jews in the first century of our era are different than modern Jews in some ways but in other ways they're just like modern Jews. And one of the things about them is that they dispute with each other. They disagree about the right thing. And there there's already been for well over a century there's been a group of Jews who said we don't recognize the legitimacy of the ruling dynasty the descendants of the Mcabes who also appointed themselves high priests. These people are totally illegitimate. They're not descended from the house of David. We quit and they moved to the desert to a place called Kuman which is in the Judean desert near the Dead Sea. And there they had a community. They they live in other places as well. They're called the Essenes. Um, and they're the people who've left us the Dead Sea Scrolls, these fantastic documents that give a open a window into Jewish sectarian belief in this period. There are other sects within Judaism. And Jesus and his followers, like those people, have real problems with the temple in Jerusalem uh, and what's uh, going on there. Um, Jesus preaches that your sins can be forgiven by following him. you don't have to sacrifice at the temple anymore and that the temple will be destroyed and rebuilt in the time of the redemption. Um these are heretical doctrines from the point of view of the priests. Uh and um Jesus also after his mission in the Galilee well his mission in the g Jesus is Galilean. He comes from Nazareth. Um though he may have been born in Bethlehem believers would say he was. Um he gets in trouble with the king who rules the prince who rules the Galilee. Um but he goes to Jerusalem famously um the culmination of his mission. Um and he goes to Jerusalem not at any old time. He goes during Passover. Passover is the festival of freedom. And it's traditional time for rebels to show themselves. It's when the Romans have extra troops in Jerusalem because they're expecting trouble. And from their point of view and from the point of view of the high priest, Jesus's trouble and that of course leads to the trial and to the crucifixion and believers would say to the resurrection. So all of this is going on at the same time. Uh and afterwards Jesus's followers heartbroken regroup and decide well what does this mean? We thought that Jesus was the Messiah and was going to bring in the kingdom of God. But now something different is going on. And they believe that Jesus comes back and speaks to them and sets them on a mission to continue his mission. So it's the beginning of what becomes Christianity. The earlier period scholars would refer to them as followers of Christ or followers of Jesus. Uh in the beginning they thought of themselves as Jews. Um but then things change later on >> and uh this is kind of going back a little bit but just you uh you mentioned this thing about Jews being similar to the way some some some are now you know this thing three Jews five opinions that kind of thing. >> Yes. >> The rebellious nature of that area and that province. >> Yes. Was that because everybody was constantly trying to free themselves of the shackles of Rome or other major powers in the region? Or are is this group of people very particularly rebellious? >> Yes and no. For first of all, there are lots of rebellious groups in the Roman Empire. So the Jews are not unusual in that way, but they are unusual for a couple of reasons. So first of all, um, put yourself in their shoes. You've been under the thumb of foreign rulers for centuries. and then suddenly you win your independence and then about a century later it's snatched away. That must have been devastating and humiliating for them under those circumstances. Uh secondly, you have this kind of engine of apocalypticism saying the kingdom of God is at hand, redemption is going is at hand. Everything that you see here is going to be swept away and the uh the golden age uh is is coming. So they have that but they also have something else and that is the diaspora and their diaspora is al is makes them um they're not the only people in the world in the ancient world to have a diaspora but what's unusual about their diaspora is that one of its feet is in the Parthion Empire and there are still Jews in Judea who say you know we were better off off under the Iranians ironically ironically today uh you know the Islamic Republic of Iran is Israel's greatest enemy. But in antiquity and actually through most of history, Iran has had very good relations with the Jewish people and with the state of Israel and there when there's been an a Jewish state there. So there's still plenty of people in Judea who are saying the Romans, you know, we have an alternative. That alternative is Partha. And Partha is Rome's chief rival. >> It's the only empire left standing in the ancient world who drives drives the Romans crazy. And the Romans fight the Parththeians and I should say the Iranians because eventually there's another empire that replaces the Parththeians. They fight the Iranians for centuries. They're still fighting the Iranians when the Roman Empire is gone and it's the Byzantine Empire. So the fact that the Jews have what they might see as the Iranian safety valve, that's also one of the reasons they rebel and why um they're constantly trying to get help from uh the Parthion Empire. We get asked this all the time. 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Uh if you want to be independent and you can't be independent anymore, that's not so great. Um, and uh, also if your country has been romanized in ways that you don't like, that's also not so great. So, you know, before the Romans, you think, hey, this is the Holy Land. And now you've got the Romans and oops, there's a pagan city here, there's a pagan city there, there's a pagan city there. Um, you don't like that either. You also don't like paying taxes. And there are Roman troops. I mean, you had to pay taxes before, but now you're paying taxes to the Romans. There are Roman troops and there are incidents that happen. Uh there are Roman troops who will tear up to uh Torah scrolls. Uh there are there's a famous or infamous almost funny incident where a Roman soldier moons uh some Jewish people and that drives them crazy. So So there's stuff going on still. Nonetheless, um it's not that bad until if we jump ahead a bit, we get >> Wait, before we jump ahead a bit, one more other question on on this. >> Um >> prior to the emergence of Jesus of Nazareth and and later obviously Christianity, >> right? >> Are the Jews the only people in this part of the world who are monotheistic who believe there is one God? >> Yes. >> Is that a big dividing line that causes friction? >> I don't think so. Okay. So I'm not the only other scholars would disagree. Um but um and also it should be said that the Iranians as Zoroastrians they're leaning towards a kind of monotheism but it's not as monotheistic as the Jews. >> The Romans make fun of the Jews. Look at those people. They don't even they don't have a decent statue of their god. Uh some of them will complain they call the Jews atheists because the Jews don't believe in the gods. But honestly, the Romans are among the great pragmatists of history. They don't really care who you worship as long as you're not a political problem. And one great sign of this, and one of the really clever things that Herod did was he knew that he couldn't have a temple of Augustus in Jerusalem. But he does the next best thing. >> He has daily sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem on behalf of the Roman emperor. M >> and those sacrifices are paid for by Augustus and his successors. Um it shows that you know they're shaking hands. These two sides are getting along. It's really a brilliant solution. >> Well, the reason I ask is obviously we live in a world in which it's sort of almost uniformly accepted that monotheism is, you know, superior, >> right? >> Um but the Jews didn't at this point think, well, we're better than the Romans cuz we've got one God. >> Oh, of course they did. And the Romans thought they were better than the Jews because they had the gods. Um, so absolutely. I just don't think this is a religious conflict. There only two times, the only two people in the ancient world who the Romans go after for uh quote unquote religious reasons. The Jews and the Druids >> in Britain. They go after the Druids not because they really care what the Druids believe, but because they believe rightly that the Druids are the engine of opposition to the Roman conquest of Britannia. That's their problem with the Druids. Their problem with the Jews is that um the Jews are first of all playing footsy with the Parththeians. They don't like >> Secondly, the Jews don't they're the only people who get a free um in the eastern part of the empire, the only people get a free pass. They don't have to worship the emperor. But as long as they're making daily sacrifices in the in the temple on the behalf of the emperor, it's okay. Caligula has a problem with that. um and he tries to force them to set up a statue of the emperor in the temple which would have caused a revolt. >> Fortunately, he's assassinated uh before it can be carried out. But in general, the Romans just don't care as long as you're not a political problem for them or a military problem. >> Okay. So, come back to the the chronology of the story. Yeah. >> Jes Jesus Jesus is crucified, dies on the cross, believers will say resurrected. Um and what happens to Judea after this? >> So uh briefly um in in between the years 41 and 44 the Romans restore the monarchy of Herod and um Herod's uh grandson uh Agrippa uh a man named Agria uh um is appointed king. Why do they appoint him king? Because Agrippa has been raised in Roman by the way. Agria is a Roman name. He's named after uh uh Augustus' right-hand man. He's been raised in Rome and he is the kingmaker who helps to make Claudius the emperor after Caligula is assassinated. So they think he's a very safe guy and should be rewarded and they make him king of Judea. He rules only for three years and then he dies uh young either of uh a stroke let us say or some disease or poison. There's some reason to think he was poisoned by his enemies. And at that point, the Romans say, "Ah, nah, forget it. It's back to being a Roman province." So, Judea becomes a Roman province. You know, Augustus was an emperor who not only was Herod very clever in balancing thing with Rome, Augustus was very clever in balancing things with the provinces. He knew when to push and when to step back. And he's quite content with having a ruler like Herod >> uh who he can cooperate with. Mhm. Uh Augustus's successors are not always as clever as Augustus. We get Caligula who almost starts a rebellion in Judea because he wants to have a statue of him put up in the temple. And then we get Nero after Claudius. And Nero, as you know, is not the world's nicest guy. Uh and Nero loves the Greeks, not real fond of the Jews. And uh he appoints a Greek to be uh governor of J Judea. Um and basically uh after the great fire in Rome, Nero needs money. He needs it really bad because he wants to rebuild Rome as Nero city, Neuropouloolis is going to be and it's expensive to rebuild the city. Uh and he gives the governor basically cart blanch to squeeze the provincials until the pips squeak. So the governor who is a Greek uh sides with the Greeks in Judea in ethnic conflict with the Jews um and he mistreats the Jews in various ways. He um takes money from the temple and when there's a protest a peaceful protest in Jerusalem he sends in the troops to massacre the uh civilians in Jerusalem. And as a Roman historian who writes about it says at that point the Jews had had enough. So you've got an emperor who's making life more difficult for the Jews. But you also have movements in Jewish society that are less tolerant of the Romans. You have one group called the dagger men, the Sakari. They are assassins and they carry daggers under their cloaks. Of course, being Jews, their favorite group to kill are people to kill are other Jews, but they consider to be collaborators against the Romans. But they're very anti-Roman. And then you get priests, a new generation of young priests who, as often happens in history, the young want to rebel against their fathers. They say, "Our fathers were wimps. They just went along with the Romans, but you know, we don't have to do this anymore. We can rebel against the Romans and we can get away with it." And so they're called enthusiasts. This group, the Greek for enthusiast is zealot. That's what we get our word zealot from. modeled themselves on a figure in uh in the Torah who is very extremely zealous in rooting out what he sees as as paganism and is not does not shy away from violence to do it. And that's their attitude as well. The signal for the revolt in the year 66 is they say you know what you can't sacrifice in the temple if you're a foreigner anymore. What that means is that you can't have sacrifices on behalf of the emperor anymore since it's sponsored by the Romans. That is uh in effect a declaration of independence which the Romans are not going to tolerate. Uh and then uh when the Romans start making a fuss about this uh they then massacre the garrison in Jerusalem um which is more than a signal of independence. It's an act of outright rebellion. for good measure. Um, there are Jews who are killing each other. There are dagger men who are killing zealots. And then the dagger men are uh the leader of the dagger men is killed and the rest of them flee from uh Jerusalem. And they spend the rest of the revolt in a fortress uh near the Dead Sea called Msada, a fairly famous place later on. But now we've got to the point in the year 66 when Judea is in revolt. >> So Judea is in revolt, right? And I'm not again a Herod apologist, but doesn't that don't don't doesn't that kind of mean that look, Herod was brutal? He was awful, right? You know, he wasn't he wasn't Yeah. Yeah. Stalin, let's bring him back. But in some in some of those types of countries or provinces, particularly in that time, >> the only real option to have any kind of sustained peace was a Herodlike figure. >> Yes. And of course as you know there are Stalin the Stalin nostalgia in Russian today. Yeah. Uh but yeah and there were definitely so you know at the time of the uh American Revolution or excuse me the American war of independence against the rightful king uh >> John Adams said look there were three groups >> uh there were three groups in the revolution. He says afterwards one group wanted independence one group wanted uh to be under the king and one group just wanted to keep their heads down. And the the place was divided one third one third one third. We don't have any statistics like that from antiquity, but it's a pretty good guess that it was pretty similar. And we know that there were collaborators with the Romans and that the ruling there are still descendants, members of the dynasty of Herod. They're ruling in the north. >> They also have a lot of say authority in Jerusalem. They go to Jerusalem. They plead with the rebels, don't do this. It's insane. It's suicide. You can't defeat the Romans. It's not going to happen. and don't think the Parthion king or our brethren in the Parthion Empire are going to come to our aid. Uh it's just not going to work. Stop this insanity before it's too late. Um but they are uh practically killed for what they say. The rebels aren't going to hear it. Um they send soldiers who help the Romans to put down the rebellion. So there are Jews who basically say Stalin was great, Herod was great. You know, forget this nonsense. Also there is an element of the revolt that's a social revolution not all of it but there are part there are people among the rebels who want to help the poor who want to take wealth away from the rich they even some would talk about freeing slaves so that's very disturbing to the wealthy as well >> and I imagine once you've slaughtered the Roman garrison yeah forgive my French you're kind of right >> yeah you're kind of a once you once you've forgiven this is a family show. So, I'll just say F. But yes, once you've slaughtered the Roman garrison, that's it. You know, so the governor of Syria, so the Romans don't have a legion in Judea. They basically control Judea with local troops, non-Jewish troops. A lot of them are Samaritans who don't get along with the Jews. Um, but now you got to bring in the legions. The governor of Judea, of Syria, the neighboring province, comes south with about 30,000 men. uh and he goes to Jerusalem and basically says, "Cut it out." But it doesn't work. Uh and in fact, he's an older guy, probably past his prime. Um his troops are harassed on the way to Jerusalem. And then when they he leaves Jerusalem, it's now the rainy season. It's October. Uh and he's heading back to the coast to go back to Syria in a narrow valley. He's ambushed. and the rebels managed to destroy the better part of a legion. Uh that is you know a four alarm fire uh as far as Nero is concerned and it's time to get serious. So after this he chooses one of his best generals. He doesn't have many left because he's had best's best generals killed because like Herod he's afraid of rebellion with good reason. There had already been an uprising against him and there would soon be another one. But he's got one good general left, a man named Vespasian. He says, "I choose you. Uh, you've got to put down the revolt." He's not worried about Vespasian. Vespasian doesn't come from the Roman nobility. In fact, he is a descendant of what the Romans would look down on as a middle-class family from the Seabine country north of Rome. But he's a good general. He's fought in Britain. Uh, he's beat up some Brits. Um and you know uh and and now uh as far as the Romans were concerned like the two worst places were Britain and Judea. You know these are the really bad people all the time. >> There's a lot of people on the internet who would agree with that. >> So um he comes with a new army. Now we're closer to 60,000 men and it's now the year 67. >> Wow. And what happens then? By the way, maybe sorry Barry, sorry to interrupt my own question. That's a extra level for me. But >> maybe it's worth you describing Jerusalem at this point because I actually in preparation for this interview watched some stuff on YouTube showing what the city was like and it's mightily impressive. It's not an easy place to come. >> No, not at all. So I mean uh it was chosen u very intelligently as a capital. So Jerusalem sits it's in the hill country. Um and and Israel is very it's almost like a topographical map. Do we still have topographical maps? I don't know. I hope so. But uh there's the coastal plane and then there's the rolling hills and then you get up to what are almost mountains. They call them mountains. Uh by American standards they're not really mountains. Um but they're pretty high hills. That's where Jerusalem is. On three sides it's surrounded by valleys. So it's really impossible to to take or very hard to take. It's only on the fourth side, the northern side, where it's relatively flat and it's relatively um vulnerable. Um one of the Jewish kings wanted to fortif. So the city is really well fortified by Herod, but it needed to be ultra fortified on the northern side. And when um King Agria the first tried to do that, the Romans stopped him because they knew that was dangerous, but really hard to take. impressive place, a little bit smaller than the old city of Jerusalem today, um but super highly fortified. And the temple sits on a hill above the city, so that's even more fortified. In addition, it's got a spring. It's got a natural source of water. And um people have laid up large supplies of food so it can feed itself for a very long time. So, you're not going to lightly lay siege to Jerusalem. You really don't want to have to do that. >> And uh the spacian turns up with 60. >> The spacian starts turns up and he comes from the north um and he attacks the north first. He goes after the Galilee >> uh and he wipes the floor with it. Uh there are some cities that immediately said we love Rome and they become his base. Um and um there's one city in central Galilee called Jodapata and uh the commander of it is Josephus. Josephus is our main source for the revolt because afterwards he wrote memoirs and he writes he writes a memoir about the revolt. He is the general in charge of Galilee. He's a pre a me he's a priest a minor priest uh and he's been to Rome. He speaks Greek. He has a view of the wider world and depending on which story of his you believe because he had different stories at different time. He was trying as hard as he could to defeat the Romans or he was trying as hard as he could to convince the rebels to stop this crazy rebellion. In any case, he's in charge of Jodapata and Vespasian lays siege to Jodapata in June of the year 67 and for about six weeks uh Josephus and his fellows withstand the Roman legions. Wow. >> Uh, and it's hot. You know, it's going to be like 90° Fahrenheit there. Really hot and miserable. And they don't have a natural spring, so they're running out of water. In the end, the Romans take the city as the Romans usually do. They massacre the inhabitants and Josephus and the other leaders of the revolt are in a cave. There about I think there are 42 of them. Uh, and they decide on a mass suicide pack. Josephus says, "This is crazy. We should just surrender." No, no, no, no. I want to commit suicide. suicide by a lottery, you know, or you know, I'll kill you, you killed an ex, so on and so forth. Um, until there are only two men left and one of them is Josephus, and Josephus is the last guy. Come on. So, he survives. He surrenders to the Romans. Um, and uh, by the way, there are it's this in math, there's something called the Josephus problem. How you can use simple arithmetic to rig a lottery so that you win it. Mhm. >> Uh Josephus claims it was fair, but he goes to the Romans. He's brought before Vespasian and he knows that he's going he's in chains. He's going to be shipped off to Rome to the tender mercies of Nero, which would be awful. But he he has a plan. And he says to Vespasian, "Look, I'm a priest. I see things that ordinary people don't see. And I want to tell you that you're you're going to become the emperor of Rome." Um, and Vespasian says, "Okay, you get to live and I'm not going to ship you off to Europe." So, it's the year 67. Uh, Vespasian then goes, um, to the capital of the Jewish king of the north, Agrippa II. and he helps a Grippa II to put down a revolt in another uh very impressive fortification, a place called Gamla, which means camel >> because it looks like a camel's hump. >> And there too uh the Romans have to fight to take the place. Very dramatic place if you ever have a chance to visit it. Um and um they do uh they eventually take it and they massacre uh the people there uh just as they did in at Jodapata. They massacre the men. They enslave the women and children. And now it's the end of the fighting season and Vespasian rests up uh for over the winter. And then the next year he's uh now uh what's happened in the north is that those who want to continue the rebellion try to escape and they make their way to Jerusalem which is under the control of the rebels and is this great fortress. Vespasians takes knocks off cities. one by one uh around uh uh Judea uh trying to uh isolate Jerusalem. And then at the end of the spring, the word comes from Rome. Nero has been deposed. He's committed suicide. There is a new emperor. And Vespasian says, "hm, what does this mean? What are my orders now? Am I supposed to continue this uh suppression of the rebellion or what?" So he calls a halt and in effect for the next two years the war is at a pause and the rebels are in Jerusalem and they have uh the the leisure to do what they want and what do they want to do? Kill each other. >> So >> devil makes work for idle hands >> and devil make works for idle hands. And so there are various factions. There's the daggermen. There's the zealots. There's the rebels who've come from the north led by a man named John. And there are the rebels who've come from the east led by a man named Simon. John is a wealthy man, a man of property. He has no interest in the social revolution. Simon is a champion of the poor. Um he is a they're both very good leaders, but Simon is especially charismatic. And Simon gets the Idans to support him. And the Idans have a very good army. So, um, there is a bloodbath in Jerusalem. These people killing each other. Um, there are three factions. There's Simon's faction, there's John's faction, there's the Zealots, and ultimately there's just two factions. John's factions and Simon's factions. As bad as this killing of each other is, even worse is the one thing they do that seems really crazy. They burn the food supply. that aren't each other's food supply. So there's enough food left over for the soldiers to feed themselves, but there's not enough food left over for the civilians of Jerusalem to live. Political scientists refer to something called credible commitment. We might say burning your bridges because then u you have a credible commitment because you have nowhere else to go. They have now given the ultimate credible commitment. You know, uh if you're not part of this, we're not even going to feed you. But then ultimately they can't feed them. >> Can I be blunt >> please? >> They deserve to lose. >> You might say it from the point from the military point of view. This is insane. >> This is absolutely insane. >> Tax season is the one time of year you're forced to look at your full financial picture. What came in? What went out? And the uncomfortable question of where the rest went. I didn't just want to look back in horror. I wanted to actually do something with it. That's why I use Monach. What I actually like about it is that it doesn't just track what you've spent and make you feel bad about it. It's built around planning ahead and hitting real goals. 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Everyone thinks that the kingdom of is about everything's about to change. >> And so people are behaving in these very irrational ways. >> Yes. But at the same time, they're not completely irrational. I That's true. There are people there are crazies. Um but they're also they're not completely irrational. They're sending embassies to the Parththeians to get help and they do get some help. So, one player who I've left out is Queen Helena. Queen Helena, who is the queen of Adiabin, which is roughly today's Iraqi Kurdistan. She's uh active in the earlier part of the century in the 30s and the 40s. And she and her sons convert to Judaism. >> Um they're pagans. uh and she uh after she turns the throne over to one of her sons, her husband who had been the king dies, she moves to Jerusalem and she spends a number of years there learning about Judaism, building a palace there and in fact her dynasty ends up building three separate palaces in Jerusalem um feeding the people there when there's a famine. So she's a beloved figure and arranging for her ultimately to be buried in Jerusalem and indeed her tomb still exists. You can visit it. remarkable place in East Jerusalem. Um, but what is she doing? What's this all about? Um, I think on the one hand it's conversion. She has a religious experience to convert. On the other hand, she's uh creating a um a foothold, a handhold, excuse me, in in in the west. Uh her kingdom, she's a vassel of the Parthion king, but she now has an opening to the west. Um and uh her sons, her grandsons are educated in Jerusalem and they're there at the time of the rebellion and they and their followers join the rebellion and they support the rebels. So the rebels are getting some support from Partha but not the massive aid that they wanted. >> But Barry, as you look at it from the outside, okay, you go they're at each other's throats. And look, I get that. You know, there's a spirit of revolution. You know, people want power, they want money, all of these things. >> But wasn't there part of them going, "Hang up. Look, lads, there's there's about 50,000 Roman soldiers over there. They've got one of their best generals. They're just sitting there eventually. They're going to come." >> Yeah. Yeah. They should have. Absolutely. And you know, when the Talmud looks back on the revolts and the Talmud criticizes the revolts, it condemns them. It says that uh Jerusalem and the temple were not destroyed because of the Romans. They were destroyed because of the Jews and what they call senseless hatred. >> Senseless hatred of Jews against each other. That's why they were destroyed. >> So, sorry. Go ahead. >> So, so we've got to the point where >> they're at each other's throats. There's pretty much a civil war happening within Jerusalem. >> Yes. >> What happens at this point? Does one group become dominant or >> I I mean, so there really two groups, Simon and John. And u the city's on different levels. It's actually on a hill. Uh and so Simon controls one area and John controls another area. Uh but neither one is fully in control of the city, but Simon is is has more power than John. >> Okay. So Simon has more power than John, but the city's effectively in a deadlock there. Yes. >> The city's in a deadlock. It's completely divided. It is therefore weakened. >> Yes. >> So what what happens? What are the Romans doing at this point? It's been 2 years. there. The Romans are having a civil war of their own. >> Okay. >> Uh uh it's civil war versus civil war. The year six. So Nero commits suicide in the year 68 and an old man named Galba who's the governor of Spain comes and becomes emperor in Rome. He's immediately deposed or pretty soon deposed by a man named Oo who is deposed by a man named Vitellius. And Vespasian's in the east. He's a general of the east. He sees all this going on and he gets the support of a very important player, the governor of Egypt. >> The governor of Egypt happens to be a Jew named Tiberius Julius Alexander who's also a great soldier, great military guy, and he throws his support behind Vespasian. He's got legions in Egypt and Vespasian now is her is proclaimed as emperor in in the year uh in July of 69. Um so this is the Romans call this the year of the four emperors because there are four different elbows emperors Galba O Vetellius and Vespasian. Vespasian leaves Judea. He goes to Egypt and he organizes an army which goes to the west and ultimately conquers Rome uh and makes him emperor. The suppression of the rebellion is on pause. The Romans are doing nothing. >> The rebels are in Jerusalem. Life seems to be going on as usual in Jerusalem, although much of the country is it's cut off from much of the country. And there are people who think Jerusalem is the is this fantastic fortress. The Romans will never conquer us. We're safe here. I think I think John says something like the Romans will conquer Jerusalem when they can fly. Um >> turns out he was wrong. >> Turns out he was wrong. It turns out he was wrong. So in the year 70, Vespasian says, "We got to take care of business." He sends a new army under his son Titus with the help of the governor of Egypt, Tiberius Julius Alexander, who is his chief of staff in effect. Um, and they lay siege to Jerusalem. The Romans do not have an easy time of it. Um, the Jews forte from the military point of view is irregular warfare, raids, ambushes, guerilla attacks, and they have water, which the Romans don't. Um, so they give the Romans a run for their money. But there's only so far they can go, especially because people are dying and starving in the city and anyone who can leave is trying to leave until the Romans cut that off. To make a long story short, there is a very, very hardfought siege. It lasts five months but in the end uh the Romans thoroughly conquer the city uh and they destroy the temple and they basically destroy the city. The city is left in ruins and uh by the autumn of 70 Jerusalem is a ruin and the revolt is all but over. >> So Jerusalem has fallen. >> Yes. >> Is that the end of the story now? >> No. there's still pockets of rebels and uh the Romans have dealt with this sort of thing before. They put down rebellions, but there's still pockets of rebels and they'll get around to it. >> Uh and it's three or four years later when we're not actually sure whether it was the winter of 73 or the winter of 74, probably the winter of 74 uh when the Romans finally uh snuff out the last pocket of resistance at Msada, this famous fortress in the Judean desert. Um and uh the Romans are able to take Msada and they discover to their shock when they get to the top that uh all but six people there have committed suicide or submitted to a mass execution killing of each other. There are over 900 uh people there, men, women, and children. Uh and they're all dead except for a few who have hidden in a drain pipe and survived. >> So the the Judea has been completely conquered. Yes, >> Rome is dominant. >> Yes, >> what happens to the Jewish people now? >> So, I mean, uh, most of them say, "Well, that was that and let's move on." But they're still, uh, rebels. Uh, some of the, uh, rebels in Judea have fled to Egypt and to Libya. They start try to incite rots revolts there. Uh, but the Romans are able to suppress them. But the Romans make some big mistakes. The first thing they do is that there was a second Jewish temple in Egypt. uh which had no doubt been built before the Torah became the law of the land. The Romans uh tear that down as well. But the one big biggest mistake the Romans make is they decide to punish the Jews of the empire by doing something unprecedented. They impose a tax on all of them. They've never done anything like this before to rebellious people. The Jewish tax, the so-called Jewish fund, Fiscus Udakus, and every Jew every year has to pay a tax to Rome. uh and not just to Rome, they have to pay a tax to the chief god of Rome, to Jupiter of the capital line hill. It's as if uh to add insult to injury, you have a tax that's humiliating enough, but the tax says your god is nothing. Your god is gone. We've destroyed his temple. Uh and now you have to pay tax to the chief god of Rome. Earlier on, u there was the expectation that every Jew would pay a tax the temple in Jerusalem. And that was kind of a big deal uh in the diaspora. Now they have to pay a tax to the chief god of Rome. And this tax lasts for centuries. >> And why do you say this was a big mistake? >> Because it's utterly humiliating. >> And it fermentss more rebellion. >> It fence more rebellion. I mean, if you think back to what Churchill said after the Second World War, in victory, magnanimity. >> This is the opposite of magnanimity. In victory, humiliate them. It's not a good thing to do. and fermentss more rebellion. >> And so you have this uh resentful population within the Roman Empire who keep rebelling >> who are treated >> uniquely badly for rebellious people. >> Yes. >> Um and where does where do the Jewish people go from there? >> So first of all, you know, uh there's still a very large Jewish population living in Judea. I mean, many of them had been killed and many of them have been enslaved and exiled, but there's still large numbers of them living all over the country. Uh, and they're trying to get by. Um, they don't have the temple. They want to rebuild the temple. We have Jewish literature from this period in which they say they they're talking about getting rid of the Romans and rebuilding the temple. Um, but most of them are probably just trying to get by. There might not have been another rebellion except for the fact that the Romans decided to conquer Partha. And in the year 115, the Roman Emperor Trajan goes eastward and begins conquering the Parthion Empire. He's doing pretty well. First, he takes Armenia, a larger kingdom in antiquity today that's run ruled by uh a a member of the Parthion royal family, and then he conquers all of Iraq down to the Persian Gulf. The next year in 116, there is a revolt in the Roman rear. There's an uprising. The Jews of Libya, Egypt, and Cyprus rise in rebellion. At the same time, there is an insurgency in Iraq. Sound familiar? And uh among the leaders of the insurgency are the Jewish population is the Jewish population of Iraq. Now, we don't have a smoking gun. We have no ancient sources to prove that there is collusion. But I will eat my hat if there wasn't collusion between these two groups, between the Parththeians in the east and the Jews in the west. The Romans have to take a legion and send it to the west to put down this rebellion. It's no small thing. The rebels are doing quite well. They also have to deal with Jewish insurgents in the east. And to make a long story short, their conquest of Partha is a total flop. They're driven out. They succeed in putting down the rebellion in the west. Unfortunately for the Jewish rebels, Jews which had been a significant part of the population of Egypt, Libya, and Cyprus are now all but wiped out. And they also send a very hardline governor, the the guy who'd been the commander putting down the rebellion insurgency in Mesopotamia. They send him to become the governor of Judea to make sure that any rebels there and there may have been some riots there to make sure that's snuffed out as well. >> I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> The the way you paint the Jewish people in this story, you know, it's they were constant thorn in the Roman side. >> Yes. But the Romans didn't h didn't handle them well. Didn't play it well. And I'm not sure there would have been a second revolt if not for Partha. I I insist that Partha, ancient Iran, is a big part of the story. And the fact that there's the Jews have this unique diaspora that's there as well as in the Roman Empire is a big part of the story. And the fact that the Romans are obsessed with fighting Partha, beat Partha. That's kind of that's kind of their thing. And and Barry, if we fast forward super a very short very long period of time to the almost to the present day, is it fair to say that Judea, >> which since has become Israel? >> Yes. >> For the rest of known history basically is just a a part of the world that is controlled by some other bigger force changes hands all the time and until you get to Yes. >> 1948. >> Yes. I mean there is a third major rebellion the Baroka revolt in the 130s and that too I believe has a Parthion connection. Um but that is defeated with great difficulty by the Romans. Um and then there are some other revolts later on and another Iranian conquest of Judea uh followed immediately by the almost immediately by the Arab conquest. Yes, it is fair to say that there are different empires that control uh that control Judea or what had been Judea. what what is now what was then the Romans renamed it as Palestine. Um and uh Palestine is controlled by one empire or another uh until the 20th century. >> And uh before we head to Substack where our audience will ask you their questions. >> Yes. >> Is there anything at all from the ancient history of this land that might be worth people knowing in relation to today's ongoing conflict? >> Sure. Uh, I mean, one thing is that the Jews are indigenous to Judea, to Palestine, to the land of Eg land of Israel. It's not as if the Zionists threw a dart at the map and decided we're going there. U, they went there because this was uh the Jewish ancestral land. Jewish prayers from antiquity to today talk about Jerusalem and talk about the land of Israel. And Jewish pilgrims and Jewish settlers came back to Judea over the centuries again and again and again. And it never stopped happening. They weren't the majority uh after um by the early middle ages they're no longer the majority there. Uh but there are a presence there and they >> can I stress test this argument a little bit because I think Melanie Phillips made it the first time she was on the show long before this latest outbreak of the conflict. >> Is that not a little bit like me turning up in Africa and going, "Well, my ancestors are from here. >> Give give me some land." No, because I mean uh it's because they're they're always there, you know, there's always Jews living there. They're always Jewish pilgrims whose ambition in life is to settle in the Holy Land. Um and ancestors in Africa. I mean, no. I mean, that's a that's a paleontological, anthropological, biological fact. >> I was being, you know, ridiculous for but okay. I mean, and maybe a different way of looking at it is, let's say a bunch of Native Americans had fled North America at the time of the Columbus, >> right? >> And then they come back and carve out a a state for themselves in the middle of the United States and say, "Actually, we've always lived here. This is our land. We deserve to be here. Look at our holy scriptures." You know, >> but imagine that the United That's a good analogy. Um, but imagine that the United States wasn't the United States. Imagine that the United States was the tool of empires over history and they're just different people marching through. There's no independent country here. Um and um Native Americans who are living elsewhere now want to come back uh and reestablish themselves uh in this new uh a new environment when new states are going to be created out of old states. >> They would have a point. I think they would have a point. They would have an argument about that. And of course, by treaty, Native Americans have rights in the United States that they're denied. In New York State, where I come from, uh, New York State has uh, ignored various treaties that it's it's signed earlier on in American history, uh, about Native American rights. So, um, it's not a totally false analogy. >> So, first point, uh, Jews are indigenous. Anything else? >> Yes. uh Jews are disputatious and uh disunityity disunityity is a problem in Israel today but it was it's an ancient problem as well and many people in Israel have have looked back to this period and said look what happened there with our disunityity uh we you know there's only so far yes we can disagree politically but there's a danger of going too far today I mean another thing is if you look at the geographical location of Israel for better or worse or worse it's in the center of things uh And you know um obviously the United States is the key ally of Israel today but Israel cannot afford to only look west. It also has to look east. It has to pay attention to Iran. It has to pay attention to the Arab states around it. it has to pay attention to Turkey who's becoming a very important player in this conflict and it has also looked its relationship with India is very important as well and with China important maybe not so um uh solitary for Israel right now but um it looks in both directions >> and and it as you tell the story and I'm thinking about Israel and I think about the story of Jerusalem and Judea and particularly with the way the fall of Jerusalem Yes. >> It makes me think about, you know, if you want to maintain Israel, the price of that is eternal vigilance. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. The price of that is eternal vigilance. I mean, if you go to Israel today, you will see that it's a society in which the military and military life is infinitely more important than it is in your standard western democracy. It's not different. One other point that I want to make about that's important for today is the role of religion. >> Religion can play a very solutary role. Um, and I personally think faith is important part of people's lives, but it can also play a not so salutary role. And while there were rebels who were pragmatists and who were serious about getting help from Partha, there were others who uh allowed their religious beliefs to get the better of them uh and who uh had ideas that simply were not practical and couldn't work. Um, and we see that in the region today as well. We see pragnist, but we also see people on both sides who are letting their uh religious ideas get the better of them. >> And maybe if Israel wants to be successful, it needs a Stalin. >> A Stalin? I hope not. No, I don't think I don't think it needs a clip that context. It's a It's a metaphorical reference to something we discussed earlier in the episode. Uh Barry, if people uh have watched this for the first time as an interview with you, they'll now know why we're such big fans of yours. You're a brilliant historian, fantastic writer. Of course, everyone should get Jews versus Rome and read it. It's also available as an audio book. >> Um, before we head over to Substack and ask you questions from our audience, which only they get to see. Yes. >> What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? >> Oh, what's the one thing we're not talking about? All my other books and >> you've written 10. >> Yeah. I mean, how and uh how they are. If you want to know more about the Roman Empire, my book 10 Caesars, I think, is uh a great introduction to it. uh but also the war that made the Roman Empire. If you want to know about Cleopatra uh and Mark Anthony and Octavian um um that's the place uh to get the story and I think it's fantastically relevant to to to warfare today. So read all my books folks >> of course and uh if people haven't seen our episode with you about the fall of the Roman Empire, it's magnificent. Barry, thanks for being here. Head on over to substacktriggerpod.co.uk where we're going to ask Barry your questions. Don't forget to click the link in the description of this episode to grab the special Cyber Ghost VPN discount. It's completely risk-free, so check it out today. >> It's a loaded question. He says, "How is it that both Christianity and Islam recognize that Jews were given the land of Israel by God, but then deny their indigenous claims?

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