DF Direct Q+A: The Big Project Helix Discussion + Helix vs PlayStation 6

Hello there and welcome to the latest edition of the DF Direct uh Q&A show. And uh there's certainly a lot to discuss in the wake of the project Helix. Uh I kind of guess guess it's kind of an announcement. I don't know. Uh Alex Batalia joins us for this particular show. Hello. >> Yeah, Helix is kind of a pissy maybe. So I'm interested. >> And of course Oliver McKenzie. Yes, Rich. I'm very excited to report that my premier David Eie has moved the clocks forward by 1 hour permanently. So, I'm permanently 1 hour closer to the both of you. >> Wow, amazing. Make the most of it. >> Looking for a new highquality gaming display? MSI has a range of excellent options for all budgets across its white monitor range with selected models at sale prices. On the top end QD OLED side, there's the MPG 321 URXW 4K 32 inch 240 Hz with adaptive sync OLED care burn-in protection, and that's backed by a three-year warranty. Also, check out more attractively priced screens, including the 4K miniLEDD MPG 274 URDFW16M. And for the budget conscious gamer looking for the ultrawide 1440p experience, consider the modern MD 342 CQPWVA display. Spring deals are now on. Check the video description below for more details and more deals. Let's crack on first of all with this question from uh don't be a Richard. Uh as always, advice I can fully uh endorse. Uh but let's get straight on to the question. In the recent direct, the team discussed the potential that Project Helix could be a device with dual booting. Wouldn't this however be too much fiction for end users and go against and go against the direction of Microsoft's recent handheld which seems to be looking to bring all games including third party storefronts into a single consistent UI. Xbox already makes heavy user virtualization for its gaming for both Xbox One and series generation as well as being in part what allowed 360 compatibility to be supported. Rather than having a dual booting device, would it not make more sense for Helix to virtualize the current Xbox OS? The underlying Xbox OS could be extracted away um abstracted away rather and not user accessible, limited quote unquote tinkering, and allow MS to still tightly control Xbox games without needing users to jump into another OS. Presumably, if Microsoft's going to dictate the chips that Helix systems can use, they could also fully uh control all driver/firmware via this virtualized layer and low-level calls to hardware while leaving the traditional Windows games subject to drivers delivered from Nvidia/AMD/ Intel. I assure you the question will be over shortly. Uh however, we shall continue. It would seem to be a misstep for me if Helix was just a dual booting system and I hope MS could unify the experience using existing virtualization implementations and use it to provide many of the benefits of traditional consoles for those titles. Lastly, as much as the team hates the Windows Store, it seems that the security Microsoft's wraps around software delivered through it has in the past shown to be capable of preventing the enduser tinkering of such apps. For better or worse, presumably Microsoft can similarly lock down Xbox hypervisors and games. Yes, I think this is going back to the direct where we uh said that a possible route forward for Microsoft was to basically have a dual booting device where you have like Xbox OS and uh traditional Windows. But I kind of understand what don't be a Richard is saying here in that um dual booting isn't exactly uh a frictionfree experience. you'd kind of want to unify Xbox and and Windows as as much as possible really. But I guess the question, Alex, is as how much is possible? >> Yeah. So I would argue much is very possible is if most of the Xbox stuff is dumped in the aspect of >> um you keep the current level of virtualization for backwards compatibility purposes. >> Uh and it's brought up through a UI that is recognizable kind of like it has been done in the past. But the route forward for future Xbox software is basically writing PC games with maybe a tiny bit of extra work potentially. And the reason why I say that is because I don't think this device is going to be a very high selling high volume device. And the idea of developers um they already don't spend a lot of time sometimes on Xbox Series X and Series S. And we've seen that when we do our sideby-side comparisons of those with like the PlayStation 5 versions of games and we see like totally bizarre visual issues that just don't show up on PS5 or performance issues that we don't expect that aren't there on PS5 and then there may be fixed in patches and whatnot. And we already see them not getting the full level of service there. And a more expensive box that is going to be bought by less people. I don't think there is the I don't know will among publishers to just keep supporting that thing indefinitely when it could just be a great PC port machine and therefore I would argue the point of bringing these two together is to essentially give all the benefits of that PC development environment over to people who want to also develop Xbox games and they just are essentially going to be running versions PC versions that are going to be sold through the the UWA or UWP equivalent thing that's going to be running on the Xbox OS through their store and then the potential to just play normal uh.exes through something like Steam or the Epic uh games system uh or GOG which is I believe also going to support it. So that's the way I see it's going to be. I think it's going to do invisible driver updates, invisible firmware updates, or maybe also make them visible because they do that on Steam OS, right? You can opt into these things. >> And I I think that's the way it's going to be. I think them relying on people developing specific Xbox software for the future just doesn't make sense um financially. So, I don't think that's the way they're going to do it actually. Um, I guess my question on on that would be uh what happens if it is if you're saying it is just basically Windows but with like uh uh Xbox editions so to speak. You know, what happens if you've got malware installed on your uh Windows platform? What happens then? Um what if you know you've accidentally left Adobe Premiere on in the background and it sucked up all of your system resources uh and then the Xbox OS uh or the Xbox side of things kicks in. Um, I think you're in danger in that scenario of basically um, uh, producing a suboptimal experience compared to what you would get on a console. So, there's got to be provisions for that, I think. Um, what do you think, Oliver? >> Well, I think the to me the key question here is how much of the legacy Xbox software is exposed through some central interface or is it going to be just like a totally separate partition with a completely separate interface from the userfacing perspective? um if there'll be some kind of interface that allows you to hopefully navigate between Xbox Windows Store games and legacy games uh on the Xbox store. I think that's kind of the question here. But I I feel confident as as does Alex that Helix games will basically be PC games essentially. Um I'm quite confident in that. I also expect that when it comes to like EGS games or Steam games, but you basically be dropped into full fat Windows from that point. Um, and then maybe also this Xbox partition will allow you to basically just go into the Xbox series, go into an Xbox series mode and enjoy all your Xbox Series games and all that within its own Xbox series interface instead of some kind of centralized interface. So, I think I actually feel fairly confident that it is going to be this split Windows and then legacy Xbox system. Um, to me, the question is to what extent can they make that interface work and unify those two interfaces and make it functional? Is that going to be something they're going to be able to accomplish or is it going to be kind of like this cludge where you have Xbox full screen experience in one corner and then uh exit out of that and now we're into Steam big picture mode which is where I think a lot of people were spending a lot of time on this box to be honest with you and then we have this like legacy Xbox series mode that is really just for like legacy software that gets you know decreasing use over time and things like this. So I think fundamentally it is a PC box and I've seen a lot of consternation and debate over what constitutes a console and is this a console? Is it is it not? You know, I'm less interested in that question, but I think centrally this is going to be a PC box that has the functionality of prior Xbox boxes, but that's not going to be the focus. And certainly it's not going to be the focus for ongoing software. When you're booting this thing up in like 2032, you're not too much Xbox Series software, I suspect. >> Right. I think you're right. I think there is a certain degree of um um parity in terms of development for for these games. So the PC version is effectively the Xbox version at that point. But I do think it will sit within its own area within that particular machine and that particular machine will need certain protections for stuff like um you know protecting online multiplayer for basically protecting the integrity of the Xbox ecosystem because I think that's the danger of basically you know giving players a completely open box is that especially on Windows there's a lot of bad actors out there who need to be frozen out of whatever the Xbox experience is when it comes to Steam and uh Epic Game Store whatever you know, I guess we are kind of like in um you know, uh Hibby Dragons territory. You know, it's all on your own back if you want to use those other stores. Um if they do manage to integrate, you know, Steam and um EGS into whatever Xbox um uh partition, if you want to call it, that actually uh happens. That would be quite interesting. Um >> yeah, I guess we're just going to have to see how that all pans out. We have do have this talk from Jason Arnold at GDC happening this week which uh let's just say I'm very interested to see what he has to say about that because you know surely he's got to answer a lot of these questions because you know certainly from a developer perspective I think they're kind of like want to know >> what the the the road map is for Xbox and I think developers want that kind of convergence between Xbox and PC in the way you describe Alex just makes life a whole lot easier right um so how is it all going to like what are the nuts and bolts there? I'm really really looking forward to finding out. >> Yeah, in my case here, I know that everyone's probably excited for that Jason Ronald talk. I actually am not too interested in it, but there's other talks there that are going to be great that I want to report back on when I get access to the sessions. Um, there's advanced shader delivery on Windows presented by Microsoft Xbox. Um, and it's also got someone there from Box, which I find very interesting, which is a, you know, a PC port studio, and they're very, you know, they're very competent in Box. >> Um, they've also got Evolving DirectX for the ML era on Windows. >> We're going to finally see a bit of those cooperative vector stuff going on and even more, I presume. Uh, there's going to be Intel, AMD, and Nvidia people there. Uh, DirectX State of the Union 20 uh, 2026, Direct Storage and Beyond. Now, so this one is going to talk about alongside with shader delivery stuff and RT advancements, new advancements in direct storage on PC, which is very interesting that they're doing that. And I think one of the big reasons why they're doing it is because now Xbox is going to be a PC and they're going to actually probably be within Windows uh GPUs and systems that are going to actually start having hardware direct storage support. Uh so not GPU direct storage. So I think this is one of the reasons why they're doing all this stuff. So those are the things I'm very interested in. Uh and I think I'll try and report back to them uh uh when we have our next direct. >> Yeah, that would be absolutely fantastic. Um interesting stuff. I mean there's actually I mean uh obviously not coincidental but we are actually seeing a lot of movement now on um DirectX uh 12 where previously it's like nothing seems to have happened for several years. >> Yeah. So that's that's that's kind of good I guess. Um, but yeah, I am quite amused by the fact that Jason Wald is uh hopefully going to be supplying us a lot of nextg console details, but you know, Alex Betalia, not particularly not particularly interested. >> Un unless like unless it really is just like a change of the PC and the Microsoft Xbox is the new PC gaming experience, then you know, I'm obviously less interested. >> Okay, then. So, let's move on to this question from bulbous_bal. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Excavation point project Helix announcement got me thinking. The rumors suggest Helix could be looking at very roughly around 5080 performance plus NPU and the PS6 around 5070 Ti. Still to be substantiated of course, but if we at least assume a gap in performance of around that level. I wonder the extent to which the team feel Helix will be able to produce meaningfully better experiences. You can see it easily uh in DF head-to-heads. But uh if that's simply on the basis that they both upscale to 4K convincingly, albeit Helix from a higher base resolution and or Helix locks to 120 while PS6 floats around 100 with VRR enabled. So what? On the other hand, there's got to be a reasonable chance AMD get RDNA5 up to a point where it can compete with what Nvidia offering today and possibly more. So, are there any features available today or in the pipeline that you can foresee Helix's more powerful variant truly to take advantage of? Maybe multi-fame gen when plugged into a monitor perhaps also highlighting the discrepancy in target market. Sorry if that's too many questions in one. I did honestly try this time. Well, here's the interesting thing that I've been thinking about for some time, Alex, which is let's say you've got like a 5080 and a 5070 Ti. However, you've locked the output frame rate to say 60 frames or 120 frames pers on both and the only difference between them is effectively a more aggressive DLSS factor on the 5070Ti. To my question to you is to what extent would people actually notice the difference? I mean, they really really probably would. They >> probably wouldn't. Yeah. So, this is the the conundrum of just everyone buying things from AMD and they all having similar price ranges for their output console. It's just boring because they're producing the same thing with different internal resolutions, which is why it wouldn't be interesting and I don't think it would be meaningfully better. So, the meaningfully the more meaningful thing from my perspective would be if it had different feature sets that the other console wouldn't have. And this applies to both of them. like one could have something that the other doesn't have. And in in this case, um you know, Microsoft, I think in the internal leaked documents regarding what this originally was a few years ago, they did mention things like uh MLFG and you know, we still have yet to see Project Amethyst touching frame generation. um you know so maybe there will be an emphasis on frame generation more than on the PlayStation side. I don't I don't know. Those are just things that I think that differentiate Nvidia on PC versus AMD. It's like the software experience. And it would be good if MS leveraged some of that PC software experience to make a more interesting box. I mean, they kind of already do that with you being able to do things like 120 Hz on the dashboard, which is something you don't get on PlayStation side. Uh, I think if they lean more into those kind of premium uh things, then they could have a box that is for the premium user and kind of like Bulbasa here says uh you can actually hook it up to any type of monitor. you know, like they've kind of pushed the HDMI spec higher on Series X uh than they did on the PlayStation 5. Maybe they'll do the same thing this time around. So, they'll actually have like DSC 4K 240 uh viable there. And hopefully AMD has a good multi-frame gen by that point in time. And then you'd get that really ultra high-end experience that you get on a PC right now on such monitors where you can play up to the refresh rate. So, I think that would be an excellent way to do it. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's probably one of the biggest um surprises of this particular console generation is that in the end, um the on paper specification difference between um PlayStation 5 and Series X didn't meaningfully transform into any kind of um appreciable improvement. And part of that, I think, is down to the year of dynamic resolution scaling where it's very difficult to tell, you know, let's say 1620p apart from 1,800p. you know, it's it's just the way it is, particularly with um temporal upscaling in the mix as well. Uh curious what you make of this, Oliver, because I think you're fully aware of the various leaks for both the PlayStation 6 and uh the Xbox. There is a meaningful advantage to what um Microsoft is apparently doing. >> But maybe Alex is right. Maybe it is more the case that, you know, that extra horsepower will be better uh utilized by like PC enthusiasts as opposed to console players. Yeah, there is a meaningful advantage. I mean, the memory bus is a little bit wider at 192 bits versus 160 bits, I believe. Um, we're talking about maybe 68 CUS versus 52 CUS roughly in that ballpark according to the latest leaks. So, you do some extrapolation that maybe you say it's like 20% 25% faster. I think historically speaking, 25 or 25 20% faster is not going to get you a whole lot. uh it's basically not that meaningful and especially if you're looking at like an unsubsidized box in the one end, subsidized box in the on the other end, there could be a substantial price premium that you're paying for that additional performance. Um because the uh new Xbox Magnus die is like also over 400 mm squared. Even though it is, I think a dual die design, that is a considerably large die for a console. Whereas PS6 seems to be a die that's like around PS5 Pro size. It's a fairly spelt to die in its monolithics. That should be uh cheaper to produce just by its nature as well. Um I would completely agree with Alex that it mostly comes down or could largely come down to having features that PS6 doesn't have because Sony is known for stripping things out, not including parts of the RDNA design that they don't feel like they need. For instance, the Xbox series had much better machine learning acceleration in multiple formats than PS5. Uh and there was some talk initially uh and some demos of Microsoft showing off early machine learning upscalers, think like single frame upscalers, things like this. Um nothing ever came of that, but they could have probably shipped something at least based off the provenence of the um based off the provenence of XCSS on on similar hardware and PC. Presumably they could have shipped something. So maybe given that this is a PC, given that it has access to those technologies, perhaps it could make more of a difference this time. But I I don't know exactly what they would be accelerating the Sony ones. That's very dependent uh on on that. But also, I would say that with the push to HDMI 2.2, I think both these boxes will support HDMI 2.2. But with much more of a focus on monitors and configurability on the Xbox Celix side, I think that could lead to some really interesting outcomes where you are getting like 240 Hz, maybe even 480 Hz gaming, using DSC, using HDMI 2.2, using I don't know if they would be I don't think they would be using Ultra 96, maybe Ultra 64 HDMI 2.2. too. Um, focusing on that. I think that could be a big plus um for high frame rate gaming because I actually don't expect Sony to necessarily be shipping like super high frame rate modes on PS5, PS6 rather, at least out of the gate because televisions I don't think will have access will have support for the full HDMI 2.2 Ultra 96 spec and I suspect that Sony will be shipping a display controller that's not capable of the full Ultra96 HDMI 2.2 spec. So, I think that will be a difference maybe more in use, but also on the PlayStation side. I actually don't think you're going to have a lot of ultra high frame rate modes, even if the system supports it, just because it will be such a minority of televisions, at least at the time of release. >> That's smart. >> Okay. Yeah, that's that's that's pretty comprehensive answer there. I think fundamentally if you're looking at a machine that has got a um kind of like a smaller but more focused user base compared to like a mainstream console like we assume the PlayStation 6 is going to be kind of makes sense really that um it would be sort of targeting more quote unquote sort of exotic scenarios that are more in the the realm of PC gaming. And to be frank, if I'm going to be buying um uh an Xbox Helix device, I want it to have all of that stuff. If I'm a PC gamer, if I'm buying that in favor of a pre-built PC, for example, I don't really want to be giving up features, although um so Nvidia's like apparently their um market share is up to 94 95% now of graphics. Um so that's I think that's basically that feature set is what um Microsoft is going to be up against if they are targeting that market. Um okay let's move on to the next question. Okay so this question comes from Dudley the gentleman. Hi DF team. Thinking about the topic of Sony moving away from PC ports of first party games. What will the role of Nixis be going forward? Relegating them to a mere support studio doesn't seem like a great return on investment. On a semi-related note, do you find it disappointing that the Demon Souls remake/reaster was never ported to PC, a platform that already has a huge Souls fan base? Well, I think you know on the on the latter question, yes, because um you know that was always a bit a bit strange, wasn't it, that you couldn't get the Demon Souls remake/re Master on PC in an era where Sony were supporting um uh PC ports of its first party AAA single player game. So that I don't I think we all pretty much accepting that isn't a particularly great state of affairs. But um Alex Nixis uh the future no AAA single player games apparently coming. >> Well that's uh yeah I wasn't here for any of the direct that was really discussed ever. Um, I think it's just a shame for Nixis in that case because they were I mean they've done nonPC ports of course before and we've discussed a number of them over the decade, you know. >> Uh, but I think what they were really interested in themselves as a studio was the PC porting process. >> Um, so them not doing that seems like a big of a sh like a bit of a shame for the people working there potentially. I think making them into a support studio. I mean, they don't have Bluepoint as a support studio anymore. So, someone's got to come in and fill that role. So, it could be next season they're technically adapt people. So, they can probably do anything they put their mind to in those regards. And hopefully they get more time. I feel like they didn't ever get enough time for some of their PC ports actually, hence some of the launch quality issues. Um, so yeah, I think that's really what it's going to be for them. I the whole PC port situation on you know for Sony is uh a bit weird. I think I feel like they sometimes committed not enough or expected too much of like late ports that were expensive uh maybe with so much shoddy quality on launch at times. So them kind of being like, "Oh, I I'm always remember reminded of that we've tried everything but nothing's we've tried nothing but everything isn't working or thing from the Simpsons." Uh like that's what I do get a little bit of right here. Um I always thought that PC and console were very separate um audiences just in terms of desires and tastes and also just like expectations of what a a game should do and can do. So them feeling maybe that it was threatening their platform. I don't know if it always made sense to me, but maybe that's one of the reasons why they are doing it. And I don't understand why Demon Souls was imported to PC, much like I don't understand why Gran Turismo wasn't because the the PC sim racing audience is also huge. And uh yeah, I don't I don't know. Maybe it just didn't play into the idea of since Demon Souls was a oneanddone kind of thing and there wasn't going to be another Demon Souls anytime soon, maybe it didn't play into the idea of we want to entice PC players into franchises um on the PlayStation side. Maybe that's the reason why. Um but yeah, it seems like it would have been perfect for it and it might have sold even more than it would have on PlayStation just because the Souls audience is ridiculous. um on PC. That's like where all the crazy mods are and the just the weirdness. So yeah, I don't know why. >> Yeah, you know, they they did um Sack Boy. They did a port of Sack Boy to the PC, but they didn't do a port of Demon Souls. You know, somebody's got to explain that one to me. I guess the port would have been quite easy for Sack Boy to its Unreal Engine nature, >> right? >> Um but even so, you know, strategically it's that it was just sort of completely baffling. Um, on the Nix side of things, they are geographically very close to Guerilla Games, which I think has helped them in the past in terms of collaboration and stuff like that. You know, it definitely helps when you're in the same time zone. And um, you know, I wonder whether the future is that they will end up as a kind of Guerilla Games um, offshoot, whether the Nixis name remains, who knows? I think it's a real shame though that you know they were brought in to do a specific task and um you know that task is no longer available to them. Um on the flip side as you noted earlier Alex Nixis aren't just a one-trick pony. They they are very very good at everything they do and they have done a lot of console work before. So hopefully we're not going to be looking at another Bluepoint situation. I don't know what you think there Oliver. >> Yeah. H jeez. Hopefully it's not another Bluepoint situation. I agree. But they are integrated into some upcoming projects. They're a support studio on SOS or actually maybe even a little bit more than that because I'm reading here they're co-developing and helping with art and game design. So that sounds like a substantial remmit on that project. I imagine they could also provide technical help across Sony titles. They have a lot of expertise there. Um, so you know, who knows what they'll be doing in the future, but I I expect that a studio with that level of talent could be integrated and could be helpful across a wide uh spectrum of Sony games. And I also don't expect that the Sony porting pipeline is totally dead, like there are going to be some multiplayer titles. Maybe they can help with the, you know, Horizon Hunters Gathering game that uh Guerilla is working on. Maybe they're getting that PC version up and running or something along those lines. Uh on the Demon Souls thing here, it is disappointing that that it was never ported to PC, but it does have a very good PS5 Pro version. And that PS5 Pro version in very short order is going to get an upgrade to PSSR 2. It's going to get an upgrade to the upgraded PSSR in S Sony's nomenclature. Um maybe I'm too much of a console partisan, but that's not too bad to me. You know, it's like pretty good 4K 60 imagery. It lives it lives on and it's a good version and I don't think anyone would really really be disappointed by it now. No, it's not running at like 240 frames per second with like DLSS 4.5 and 6x FG whatever. I don't know all this nonsense that's going on on PC at the moment with ultra high frame rates near OLED monitors and such. But, uh, for most people, I think a 4K 60 experience with that level of visual quality, that level of like incredible graphical fidelity is, uh, is something to be appreciated regardless of what platform it may or may not be on. >> Mhm. Okay, brilliant. Let's move on. Uh, I got this question here from Avy. A number of outfits are reporting that Sony/Playstation Store is testing dynamic pricing for games. What's your take on this development? Uh, well, my take's pretty straightforward. I mean obviously there is a degree of flexibility in terms of uh pricing on a digital platform right and you'd expect to see stuff like sales and whatnot. How dynamic is the pricing is is my question. I was looking at this report and um uh it it does seem to be quite uh interesting what they're doing. It seems to be like dynamic discounts but obviously dynamic discounts means that other people are playing are paying more. Um but at the same time across regions there's always been some degree of price disparity. I think the concept though if it is truly dynamic pricing if you're thinking of dynamic pricing in the same way as like dynamic pricing on Uber or whatnot that generally tends to happen I think according to um supply and demand. And basically the problem with the digital platform is there's there's um there's infinite supply. So how does that work? Um, Oliver, uh, I'm really not a fan of this. I don't like it. Like you mentioned, the constraints that lead like demand and supply that lead to other kind of dynamic pricing systems don't exist here. And in this instance, critically, if I want to buy a PS5 game, you know, unless I'm buying physical, I only have one option for digital, right? I only have the PlayStation store as an option for digital. I can't cross shop between different vendors. and theoretically get a better deal. So I think it's even more dangerous in that situation. And for me, I mean, I'm a, you know, I'm so to speak in in gaming parliament, I'm a bit of a whale. You know, I buy a lot of games. I have like 400 odd Switch games. I have, I don't know, 400 odd PlayStation games, 300, 400 odd, I mean, lots of Xbox games. I have a lot of games across all these platforms that I've amassed over the past, you know, 10 years or something of the, you know, predominance in digital marketplaces over the past uh over eighth gen consoles and ninth gen consoles now. And I can just imagine like, you know, I would have paid a lot more for some of these games like Fast Fusion cost like 20 bucks, 25 bucks. I would have paid like a h 100red bucks for Fast Fusion. But is that, you know, am I getting into a situation where they would start charging the price that I would actually pay for that title? you know, that seems like a dangerous situation to be in because I'm not as price sensitive maybe for some of these games. So, I I just don't like it in general. And it kind of seems to almost get into the realm of like maybe penalizing your most dedicated, most enthusiastic users, and that's just a dangerous route to go down. So, I hope it's just an experiment with dynamic pricing. I mean, I'm fine if like in this trial, they are just lowering prices a little bit here and there. It's not the most offensive thing in the world, but I think like the end point of dynamic pricing is something that's actually quite hostile to a lot of their user base. So, I wouldn't want it to go in that direction. >> Yeah. Um, Alex, >> well to recall in an earning call in an earnings call on Thursday, this is quoting CNBC article about uh Sony's profits at the beginning of the year from February, a Sony executive said the company aims to blunt the impact of higher memory costs by focusing on monetizing its current install base. >> Yeah. And further expanding its software and network service revenue. Well, that sounds kind of like one of the first pushes in this direction. And as Oliver said, you are kind of tied to the box and the the store that is on it. So, unless you're buying physical uh in which case this is just part of the experience. So, yeah, it sucks. Yeah, I think if there is going to be any sort of um uh kind of exploitation of the user base by any particular digital s store, there is going to be um push back certainly from the European Union who doesn't take kindly to that sort of thing. Ultimately, you know, something costs a set price and you can either pay it or you can't, you know, um I don't understand why why things need to be dynamic in that nature unless it is to maximize revenues and profits. Okay. Um let's move on to the next question. This one comes from uh the Adam and uh spoilers, Alex, you have no interest in this question whatsoever. >> Oh, yeah. >> You can just go get a coffee if you want. Um, hidef crew exclamation point. Um, coincidence or intentional? The new Pokémon game is finally showing improved graphics and actually has very pretty pretty water effects. Oh, Alex, you're back in uh with waves and decent physics. And then John releases a retro water episode. What are your thoughts on the Pokémon footage shown so far? Thanks as always and see you soon. Exclamation point. Uh, Oliver, >> I think it looks quite attractive. It is. I think it is based off some fork of Unreal Engine 4. Um, and it does look quite pretty here. It looks like I mean, it looks a world above what they were previously shipping on Switch with the Legends game and with uh the other titles they were shipping. I mean, there was some pretty miserable efforts there, but yeah, I mean, it looks, you know, you got beautiful looking water. I think you've got screen space reflections. You know, very attractive title um relative to those prior games at least. So, I would say that this is it's almost like a Pokemon Black Flag kind of game. It just gives me that kind of vibe here. So, yeah, I think it doesn't look exceptional, and it is running at 30 FPS on what is presumably Switch 2 footage, but it looks like a competently assembled game with like good-look art by and large. Looks decent, has good lighting. Um, it's just a a complete step above the other Pokémon efforts that I derided so poorly back when they shipped. So, I'm I'm looking forward to this from a technical perspective. It seems like a title that uh could actually be like a really genuinely competent 3D Pokémon game, which I I honestly can't really say for very many 3D Pokemon games in recent years. >> Mhm. >> Do you have any input at all, Alex, or should we just >> Well, no. I think I like to say about this that it does remind me of, you know, Assassin's Creed Black. Uh, and I imagine the if it is an Unreal Engine 4 thing, I don't The one thing with the the Pokemon studios, one of the reasons why their games have been so ugly, I think, is because they have live very fast turnaround time. Like they're just like constantly pumping out Pokemon games. There isn't a lot of time to sit back and like uh re-evaluate the technical situation and then push from there and like maybe start with something fresh. and using an off-the-shelf engine like Unreal Engine 4 will have the benefit here is one it's standard features will I mean I can see the standard Unreal Engine lens flare here which is a bit annoying but but things like the there's tons of plugins to Unreal that have been developed over the years that have you know they're probably very price effective and I'm pretty sure those waves are probably going to be a plugin. Uh, so yeah, you know, there's stuff like that that is I'm happy to see in this game cuz I did think like all the coverage of the last couple Pokemon games, especially in those cities where like they have just like the tiled textures for the windows, like yeah, this this is like way better. And it's also visually like I don't know. I I have some level of nostalgia for like red, blue, and yellow. Um, and here, you know, I always thought like, oh, it's fun to be walking around in, you know, like exotic loces, and this finally looks like an exotic local. So, this is cool. >> Okay. Uh, let's move swiftly on to this question from Marcus. Maybe something of an Oliver question, but my family is quite bullish on 5K. My dad bought the first 5K screen for consumers, which was the old iMac, and then he bought the Studio Display, and now we have ordered the Studio Display XDR. I'm really curious about the upcoming 5K gaming branded monitors and I did some benchmarking on the studio display using my 4090 powered PC. By fiddling with internal resolution settings, you can get a very good experience and the high PPI generally hides upscaling artifacts really well. Do you think that 5K gaming has a place in the market? Are you planning on picking up any of the new Apple products? Hope you have a great week. Uh well um Oliver, this is an Oliver question and I think in terms of the final bit, it's uh it's it's a it's a yes from you, isn't it? >> Yes, it is a it is a yes for me and I'll get to that in a moment, but I I've been looking forward to these monitors for a very long time. These 5K high refresh monitors with tons of dimming zones because LG and MSI announced uh two monitors that are I think based on the same panel as the uh Apple monitor and they displayed them at CES. They have 27in 16x9 panels, uh, 5 5,120x 2880 resolution and refresh rates of 120 Hz or above and 2,34 dimming zones. That's kind of the shared spec across all these models. Um, and yeah, I've been looking forward to them. I have a studio display, a 4-year-old studio display sitting in front of me here, but it is kind of a dated panel. It's 60 Hz only. It's not mini LED. It has, you know, 1500 to1 contrast ratio. Maybe it's got quite gray blacks. It's, you know, it's a good monitor for what it is, but it's not really a high precision monitor. Can't do HDR, can't do the kinds of content that I really want to see on it. And obviously, it has that laggy 60 Hz refresh rate. So, I am actually I have pre-ordered um and I am picking up one on Wednesday. Maybe when this episode goes out, I'll already have it, but I am ordering the Apple Studio Display XDR. I have pre-ordered the Apple Studio Display XDR, which should be basically a drop in replacement for this display. Um, unfortunately, I can only drive it at 60 Hz with my M1 Ultra because it's using an older Thunderbolt spec. I think it doesn't support like DSC over its display port or whatever, something along these lines. So, I can only run it at 60 Hz. So, I'll have to upgrade that at some point as well this year. Maybe when they reveal the M5 Ultra uh Mac Studios, I'll be in on that. But, yeah, I'm really looking forward to this. I think I think its primary use though, at least in my mind, is for productivity because for productivity work, at least for me, I don't know about you guys, but I tend to sit a little bit closer to the monitor and I tend to put my eyes specifically on different parts of the screen and focus on specific parts of the screen. So, I feel like that additional density I get on this monitor above a 4K monitor really benefits me there. Whereas, I feel like with gaming, I'm sitting back a little bit further. I'm taking in larger portions of the screen. I'm trying to be immersed in the experience, but also I need to be able to see things in my peripheral, especially in like a fast action game. I'm not focusing so much on maneuver details. I'm not moving in to see things on the display. Um, or at least that's what I tend to do on my productivity displays. So, I feel like that's a bit of a different use case, but I do think that high-end GPUs are perfectly capable of driving 5K displays these days at high refreshes. if we're talking about, you know, DLSS with frame generation, high-end GPUs, I mean, upscaling to 5K has a considerable cost, especially with like, you know, the 4.5 models. Um, but, you know, I think in general, it's a it's a pretty addressable experience. I mean, we've had 5K displays for a long time, as this user points out. I mean, the first Macs with 5K displays were released 11 or 12 years ago, so this is not a not a new problem. Um, but certainly the GPUs of that era were not really capable of addressing a 5K display. in anything but like very light World of Warcraft content or something. Nowadays, I think you could actually get a pretty good gaming experience. Would you want to? I I again, I think these are more productivity displays than they are gaming displays, but I think they could work well for gaming as kind of a dual use for sure. And indeed, the MSI and LG, I think they have 330 Hz modes as well that dip down to 1440p. So, if you want that super high refresh experience, you can do that as well. >> Interesting. I don't know, Alex. I'm kind of thinking certainly in the PC space 4K at 165 Hz or or higher is higher up on my particular priority list than 5K at 120. What do you think >> for for gaming? For sure. Um just because you know you're going to want to if you're going to be already going for that 4K splurge, which I don't think everyone needs, I think 1440p is an amazing resolution to play at. Uh so most people should probably target that. And it's also much better on your your budget to target that from the GPU side. But if you're targeting stuff at 4K and you want to play the latest and greatest experiences, uh I do think really 4K is the place to stay because stuff like path tracing is expensive. Upping that base resolution even higher. I mean, arguably at that point with pixel density, maybe you're seeing upscaling issues less uh if you're going for a higher scale there. So, I don't know. would be an interesting thing to test out. But I really do think like Oliver said, 5K uh productivity. I like the idea of having a monitor where a 4K video preview is just only a part of the monitor and not the whole thing. >> That is kind of cool. That's why 8K is interesting, but for everything else, not interesting. Um so yeah, that's kind of how I feel. It is great in Final Cut how you can have like a pretty decent slice of the screen showing a video and have that actually almost represent the full pixel width that you get in 4K. It actually looks really good. So that's definitely a big advantage. But yeah, for gaming, I mean 4K is already so many pixels. It's like 8.3 million pixels. You're playing We're playing with really high resolutions these days like 5K, 6K, 8K. These things are kind of a real extravagance for gaming. I'd argue 4K in many cases is an extravagance for gaming. Um, and I'm really comfortable with 4K. So, for me, I would, if I was just getting something for gaming, I I would not splurge for 5K. I would be going with like a, you know, probably a 4K mini LED instead of a 5K mini LED, personally. >> Okay, good stuff. Let's move on. Okay, so, uh, another question here, and it's it's Dudley the gentleman again. He's come up trumps with another interesting question. Hello. Yes, Rich Foundry. Uh, exclamation point. With Sony likely releasing a PS6 handheld along with a standard console, do any of you see any potential reasoning where Sony would want to release a PlayStation 6 Pro? With the current generation's increased silicon costs even before the RAM apocalypse and the push for 8K televisions going the way of the Dodo, I originally thought there would be no reason for a PS5 Pro. To my surprise, Sony still released a PS5 Pro. Um uh my quick take on that would basically be um it all really depends on the trajectory of gaming technology and the extent to which it might make a difference. I think there was probably a good reason to do a PS5 Pro in the that obviously the direction of travel was towards um better rate tracing and towards machine learning and although you know the it's it's not exactly a huge revelatory change you know you are seeing some interesting stuff on the PS5 Pro particularly now the new PSSR is uh is incoming so the promise is kind of like finally being reached there the question is the extent what happens Next, let's say that RDNA5 is really really cool and does everything that um you know Nvidia is kind of currently doing. Well, the ne the the obvious question is what is Nvidia doing next and to what extent would it be gamechanging and to what extent would it actually um justify a PS6 Pro? Uh Alex, what do you think? >> Uh I don't know. I I don't know at this moment in time what would be gamechanging. I guess the to address the deficiencies in whatever the PS6 design is going to be kind of like the way the PS5 Pro works like RDNA2 and you know lack of machine learning and lack of uh good enough RT for certain experiences. That's kind of what the PS5 Pro slots into. And I guess we would have to wait for the PS6 to come out to see where its larger deficiencies are to see where then Sony thinks they can uh you know you know produce a product which generates enough FOMO to get enthusiasts to buy for the perceived deficiencies of the original system. Uh in that case I I think it's really hard to say at the moment though given the the how expensive everything is. I also think it would be a bit weird to, you know, release a PS6 Pro. Um, but I was also slightly surprised by PS5 Pro. I didn't really see the need for it for a long time. So, yeah, I think we all didn't really see any need for an enhanced console this particular generation because it there's still the sense that we were only just at the beginning of the generation because of the extent of the cross generation period. But I think uh PS5 Pro particularly with the new PSSR has kind of like um uh it has addressed certain deficiencies or will address hopefully. Um Oliver, yeah, I mean jeez, if the PS5 is great for raster, PS5 Pro is great for ray tracing, PS6 presumably great for path tracing, then what is PS6 Pro great for? You know, I think they need to find something to differentiate themselves. Likewise with PS4, you know, great for 1080p. PS4 Pro, great or good, maybe not great for 4K, you know, there's there's going to be something in there. And I kind of think like, is it more path tracing? Is it 8K rendering? Is it something crazy with like AI and neural stuff and what what's going on there? Um, but I I kind of think that that could be part of it. Like if there is some new rendering paradigm, if there is something new that they need to attach themselves to, that could be a big part of it. But I also tend to just think that maybe the role for a PS6 Pro is not so well sketched out next generation because what we're seeing is a much more direction of travel towards homogenization of visual experiences towards actually extending to the low end delivering a PS6 handheld that presumably is going to be capable of ray tracing is going to maybe be even capable of like some light path tracing experiences is going to you know be an okay box to tackle a lot of these more extreme experiences but at a lower fidelity level we're seeing a lot of games ship I know on Switch 2, you know, Resident Evil Reququum scales all the way from Switch 2 all the way up to like a 5090 equipped PC with some grace there. Uh, no pun intended. That does need to happen here, right? So, I kind of feel like maybe the PS6 Pro isn't the right segment of the market to be thinking about. Maybe it's really that PS6 handheld that we should be thinking about a bit more. >> Yeah, certainly from a a mainstream perspective, I agree 100% there. It's a different way to actually play games really. That's what why switch and switch two have been so successful I think. Um okay interesting stuff. I think the other thing of course is that Sony have actually made use of all of the major process node jumps. Um so PS5 Pro has been like 4 nanometer and it's like okay we can do something with this and and here it is. And um yeah so where do we go? I think it's uh 3 nanometer for the um uh for the PS6. Obviously 2 nanometer is still a thing. I guess the extent to which it's different and could provide a an improved gaming experience will also be sort of front of mind for Sony as well. Um, okay, let's move on to the final question. Leftist Homminid asks, "How is Will doing? When will he be allowed back on DFDirect?" Um, yes. So, this is great news which uh we announced last week on social media and on our um support uh uh program that will Jud is returning to Digital Foundry. Um, yeah, obviously there are some pretty bad things happening at IGN. I'm kind of done talking about IGN at this point. In fact, we actually recorded a segment about the layoffs of IGN um related to Eurogamer. And I just thought, do we do do we need to go into depth on this? Let's talk about the positive thing. The positive thing is that Will Jud is returning to Digital Foundry starting at the beginning of um April. He's going to be taking point on our website. I'm going to be working alongside him on that. Very, very excited. Um, merch is going to be back. We're going to be doing some good new merch. I think uh I I really do want a digital foundry version of of this >> this gigantic mug. It's seen me through many many early morning DF directs for the requisite caffeine boost. So yeah, a lot going on there. Can't wait to be working uh with with Will again and all of all of the team are super super excited about that. Right, Alex? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I posted about it on the Reddit. Uh, also one thing that we did a handful of times, >> I believe with Will was doing old PC play with the >> with our with our uh with our Discord community. Actually, now there's like even more reasons to do it. We got stuff like Unreal Tournament uh 2K4 being re-released on PC and is now communitydriven. And it's going to have stuff like, you know, I think active Linux ports, active Mac ports, uh active new features for that PC version, bug quashing under Windows 11 and higher. So, those are things I would love to play with Will because Will is a old PC guy and it's really fun. He also loves Home World, which I love, you know. So, uh, maybe we play a game of Home World and I get ripped to shreds. So, that'd be good. >> Yeah. So, we got a new plan for the website which are going to be actioning with Will and our partners at Hook Shop, which I'm very, very excited about being kind of old school journalist. Um, and yes, the merch is going to come back hopefully in bigger and better than we have before. Excited about that. And, um, just the bottom line of having another PC orientated guy on board, super super good for us. And, um, yeah, happy days ahead. Uh, Oliver. >> Yeah, I'm looking forward to Will coming back. Looking forward to delivering shipping half finishedish video scripts in the middle middle of the night for Will to to peruse and revise as he sees fit. But yeah, it's fun to work with Will. Easy, no drama to work with. I'm I'm really excited to to to working with him again. And um yeah, it is nice that out of the ashes of some of the unfortunate firings that have occurred at at uh Ze Davis, we are getting some um valuable contributors back. >> Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. There's a lot of people affected by that. And um ultimately this is why we went independent, right? And I think from a um an audience perspective, it's basically, you know, who do you want running your favorite media outlets? Is it people that are like fully invested in what we do and love what we do, which is the case that now with the ownership structure of Digital Foundry? Um, or is it kind of like, you know, guys that are sort of at the top of the tree, massive media conglomerates. Um, so that's the importance of independent media. It's gaining momentum um for obvious reasons. And you know, I'd just like to say thanks for supporting Digital Foundry and consider supporting other independents out there because we, you know, we kind of need it. Um, but that was the final question there for the end of the show. Oh, but actually before we do that, leftist. Uh, when will we'll be allowed back on DF Director? Well, soon hopefully. Didn't actually answer that question. Anyway, uh, that was the end of the show. So, please do like, subscribe, share on the off chance you enjoyed it. ring bells for notifications to you when DF drops new content, potential algorithmic boosts for us. But yes, patreon.com/digitalfoundry supporting independent media. It really is important. Uh store.digitalfoundry.net to examine our range of merchandising wares. But that's all from us on this one. Thanks for watching and supporting Digital Foundry and we'll see you very, very soon.

Thanks to MSI for sponsoring this video. Check out MSI's UK deals on its white display range: MSI Spring Deals: https://msi.gm/DF_Spring MPG 321URXW QD-OLED - https://msi.gm/S1BD8EB0 MPG 274URDFW E16M - https://msi.gm/S10123DE Modern MD342CQPW - https://msi.gm/S992A38B MAG 274QRFW X32 - https://msi.gm/S97F43FE MAG 272QPW QD-OLED X28 - https://msi.gm/S9C577CC In the fourth Q+A show, the team dive deeper into Xbox Project Helix and share their thoughts on potential performance vs PS6 along with hopes for what Microsoft will reveal this week at GDC. In the wake of Sony's reported change in PC strategy, where does that leave Nixxes? And what about the alleged "dynamic pricing" on the PlayStation Store? Oliver's getting a new display for the workplace, and Will Judd returns to Digital Foundry. And... can Sony justify releasing a PlayStation 6 Professional? Visit The DF Website: https://digitalfoundry.net Go here to check out DF merch! https://store.digitalfoundry.net Subscribe for more Digital Foundry: http://bit.ly/DFSubscribe 00:00 Introduction Sponsored By MSI 01:31 Supporter Q1: Will Project Helix dual boot Windows and Xbox OS, or will it rely more on virtualization? 13:03 Supporter Q2: Does Project Helix seem meaningfully more powerful than PS6, based off rumoured specs? 21:45 Supporter Q3: What will Nixxes do, given their reduced porting portfolio? 28:23 Supporter Q4: What do you think of dynamic pricing for digital game stores? 32:49 Supporter Q5: Are you impressed by the Pokémon Winds/Waves trailer? 36:05 Supporter Q6: Is the Apple Studio Display XDR any good for gaming? 42:21 Supporter Q7: Can Sony justify releasing a PS6 Pro? 47:32 Supporter Q8: How is Will doing, and when will you let him back on DF Direct?