DF Retro Super Show #009 - Revisiting Wave Race + Video Game Water Rendering

Hello and welcome back to the DF Retro Super Show. I'm John Linman. This is episode 9 and it's a little different than usual because I'm in the same room as one of the co-hosts. He's right there behind me. It's Mark Triforce Dlesson. I I'm sure you didn't recognize me wearing my vacation hat. I'm wearing this because Cory would be extraordinarily sad while editing the show if I was not wearing this. This hat gives him much joy and amusement just like uh Oh, yeah. There I am. >> There he's somewhere. We, you know, we can have some fun gigs, but we decided to do this episode as a twoman gig this time just to see how it works. Let us know what you think. But uh I figured it would be fun since we're in the same room. We can talk over each other the whole time and make people really annoyed in the comments. No, I'm just kidding. We're not we're we're going to try not to do that. I swear. But as you might be able to tell if you're watching on YouTube from the background, we're talking about Wave Race and water sports games of the '90s with a focus on Wave Race, shall we say? Specifically, we're going to go through Wave Race, Wave Race 64, and Wave Race Blue Storm to talk about the game sort of holistically and that whole era of like the the blue water, slicing across the water, jumping off some giant ramps, catching some air, the good times. It felt great, especially under the bright blue skies. And we want to go back to that time. But first, we have a little bit of like news and updates and what's been going on. So, let's get to that. So, we have Mark back here sipping some lemon Fanta as you do in Europe. He's been over here for a week now. We've been up to some fun things. So, you know, as game lovers, we're going to do some game related stuff in addition to the normal tourism. One of the fun things we did is, you know, we stopped at the local arcade, which is actually the Flipper Uncade Museum in Zeligenat, which is a nearby German town. These guys are awesome. If you're anywhere near Germany and you want a cool arcade, go there. Eight player Daytona, other racing games like that. They've got insane amounts of pinball tables, more than I've ever seen in one space. Lots of cool people there. Super super fun. But they had a party this weekend to celebrate sort of its reopening after a roof repair. A lot of people donated and helped keep it alive. Right. And one of the fun things that we did is we got to encounter, and this is my first experience with him, the Panisher Yodeler. Yeah, Takio Ishi. He's a yodeller from Japan who's lived here since, I believe, the 70s. Yep. >> Um, he is himself in his 70s. And, uh, I have never seen anything like this before. Uh Corey will be greatly amused that, you know, for for all of my lack of knowledge of popular music and popular music genres, I was so deeply enchanted by this Japanese yodeller. I so enchanted in fact that I bought >> Oh, you got it. >> A vinyl album from this man. I've never intentionally bought a vinyl album in my life cuz I'm a CD man much like our fellow host Audi who's not here today. Uh but yeah, I they didn't have a CD version with this spec specifically. Uh this has a song called End Boss on it. >> Yes. It's basically a riff on the Tetris theme. >> It's the Tetris theme >> but with Yodelene and it takes place in the arcade. >> The Tetris theme. So you all can go to YouTube, find Takio Ishi's channel. He shot uh the music video for this song at the very arcade we're talking about. Uh and so he joined them for their celebration. Let me tell you, I have never seen like everyone in the room, and this was a a pretty packed room. It was a well- attended event. Everyone in there was smiling, and every time I looked around a room again, they were still smiling. like this man just has an infectious joy and humor to him like that transcends language barriers cuz I know relatively little German, relatively little Japanese. I've tried to learn both. I'm not great at either. Uh so but I and he didn't speak English but I was still able to enjoy and understand what he was doing and and what was fun about it. So go look up his YouTube channel. He's got some really funny videos on there. Chicken Attack is another one he loves. He has like two to three chicken oriented yodelling songs. And also this Tetris one that's on this vinyl. Uh oh my gosh, what an experience. Uh I'm so glad I my trip happened to coincide with that event. >> I know, man. What a nice guy. And like the dude just loves him some yodelling. Been here a long time >> and now I do too. so much that I'm even This isn't a yodelling hat, but you know, it's maybe a little bit adjacent to it. >> It could be. It could be if you use your imagination. But yes, Teshi is what a guy. Go check it out. It's very fun, very funny. He he just has a great sense of humor. So, that was one of the cool things that we did. Um, we also were in Straussorg yesterday to see some beautiful things. Uh, including that awesome cathedral. Whether you're into that or not, like when you come when you come around that corner, you see that thing in front of you, it's like good lord. Like if as an American, I'm not used to old structures being that physically massive. And your brain almost can't even comprehend it. You know, we were meeting up with uh one of the DF RA uh retro supporters, Arno >> 1040 a STF. >> Yes. Our friend there. And uh you know, he was like, "Oh, this is all this is normal." Like he like all you know, they have like five guys in Starbucks are operating out of these like ancient buildings. It's it's so weird to an American like me who, you know, has only this is only my third trip to Europe. So, it's all this stuff is very novel to me. But we we weren't just there taking in in sights. There was a super cool little retro shop in Strawborg. >> Yeah, it's very small. Actually, very much feels like a Japanese store in sort of that uh tight cramped way, but uh also much like Japanese stores, lots of nice little gyms there. Uh which uh unfortunately I don't think John, you didn't get anything, right? Well, actually, since before you talk about yours, at the arcade, I actually got my hands on a on three things. And the main one was actually finally Pepsi man. Uh, and this was actually sort of a a trade deal with um friend of the show, who's like the guy who runs uh the World of Longplays YouTube channel, which I'm sure you've clicked on a World of Longplays video at some point. There's a ton of them. >> So, he was there and uh yeah, so we traded some stuff. Uh, and the big thing that I got here, Pepsi Man. This game is awesome. >> Pepsi Man says drink, but I'm gonna drink lemon font because oh my gosh, y'all, you don't even understand if you've never had German fruit flavored sodas. >> It's They're very different. >> So much better than American. Oh, it's so good. >> But yeah, so Pepsi Man, it's like a 3D platformer that always runs ahead, right? It's like one of those like infinite runners but not infinite. and you're just moving through a 3D world and just the vibes, they're immaculate. This game's been around. You you've probably seen it, but if not, like it's just it's it's hilarious and it's got these weird interstitial FMVs with this dude in it. Uh what can I say? You know, TV game for Pepsi or whatever, but Pepsi for TV game. Sorry, that's the thing. But Troy, you actually got a number of things yesterday, I believe. Well, not well I I'm going back up as well because uh uh also from Slouchy of uh World of Long Plays uh as as as a gift for uh some of the stuff we did to help him out uh got me a he had an extra copy of The Firemen Pete and Pete and Danny for uh for PS1, which is an excellent game. I actually happened to play this last year in co-op. Uh ton of fun. Not very long, but there's multiple endings. And so I would love to replay this and uh take a different route. Uh very surprisingly fun little co-op game. Highly recommended. Um but yeah, uh at Little Tokyo in Strawborg, uh also got, you know, this was a game that was on my mind last year and then uh when John pointed it out on his shelf, it kind of put it back on my radar. They happen to have Mr. Heli by IRM for the PC Engine. I I love me some IRM games on the PC Engine. They uh they're one of the few developers that relatively consistently used uh the PC Engine's high-res mode, which is, I think, 352 pixels wide. >> Yep. 352 by 224, I think. >> Yep. Yep. So, uh it's a it's a it's a it's a Hugh card game inside its decaying plastic sleeve, which I'll uh I will not be keeping. But I don't like keeping my PC Engine games inside those. Uh they're starting to get a little tacky. Those uh >> Yeah, that those can be bad. You can actually ruin a PC Engine U card if if it gets too stuck. Not necessarily destroy it, but like you can end up with damage on the label. >> Yeah. Do you actually while we're talking about PC Engine games from the store? Do you want to talk about your Bonk 2 situation? Has that come up on the podcast before? >> It has not. I'm going to throw out a PSA and and see what other people think. But essentially some months ago, I tried to play PC Genjun 2 Bon Revenge, right? Japanese version PC Genjine 2. I love this game. It's one of my favorite PC Engine games. I've played it many times. Popped it in as usual and it didn't work. It just like just a a blank screen or whatever. So, I cleaned it with Deoxit. I did my usual thing. No matter what I did, couldn't get it working again. I actually got like a corrupted picture with like corrupted sound at best, but that's it. And I went online and searched around and like you find a lot of hits for specifically the Japanese PC Genjun 2 Hue card failing where people say, "Hey, it doesn't work anymore. There's a problem with it." So yesterday we're at Little Tokyo. Um he had a section of PC Engine games just in one of the other cases, no prices on them yet or anything. And I saw that in there and I asked about it and you know gave me a fair price but I was like actually can we test this first? and he's like, "Sure, no problem." He actually had a PC Engine set up and running on one of those uh displays in the store. Popped it in. Pink screen. That's not good. We popped We took it out, cleaned it well, popped it in again. This time, corrupt screen. Cleaned it again. Same thing. We continued to fiddle with it and ultimately came to the conclusion that it has the exact same fault that my car did. He had tested this less than a year ago when he got it in. And just like I had been playing mine, no problem. And then just one day it just dead. And that is uh I always hear people talking about disc rot and stuff. I've never had a disc failed. I actually went through a bunch of those. Uh there could be a bad one in there. Who knows? But so far it's never actually hit me. But this is the first time. The second time I've actually had one cartridge game fail on Super and Super Famicom. It was the What was it? But I think it was the Gaia Genski, which is the Japanese version of Illusion of Gaia. >> Weird. >> That was just dead. Never worked. >> Wow. >> Um, actually a weird one than that. That was broken. And then I I got a US cartridge at some point and it came in the mail and that was broken, too. >> What? >> Yeah. It was just dead. >> Nonfunctional cartridges are extremely >> And it was the same game but different regions. I don't know what's up with that, but I actually have it now and it's fine. >> So, the only the only cart I've had that I can think of that was ever just bad was actually Ninja Spirit for PC Engine. And I I'd be curious if I were to look out there if there would be uh recurring tales of failing uh US versions of Ninja Spirit for Turbo Graphics. Uh because I did end up getting a second uh copy because the first one I picked up did not work. >> Yeah. So based on this, I really wonder like there's enough stories about this and enough examples now where I've seen personally two different copies just not work. And in my case, I tested it on all my PC engines, which happens to be three, and the PC or and the analog duo. So four unique pieces of hardware all exhibit the same fault where you just get like barely legible corrupted graphics and garbled sound and that's it. Can't do anything. So, I think there's a problem and I hope it doesn't start hitting other games. This has been there's enough reports going back years to suggest that this is just a PC gen 2 problem that there's something wrong with those cards. >> So, just one more pickup for me uh for now uh on my Europe trip. I'm always uh I've always got uh Sega Master System games on my mind when I'm in Europe because they are more plentiful here. They got later games that didn't come out in the US oftent times are they are better games and they play perfectly in NTSC systems uh at 60 Hz. There's no region locking, no really PAL optimizations. They just play fine in US systems at 60 Hz. And something I discovered last year is that the Master System version of Game Ground is actually really good. >> Oh, yeah. >> Uh what's cool about it, I think, um especially if you're playing it in two-player mode in the Genesis version, like uh the characters kind of just are what they are. Like uh this class is male, this class is female, but player one and player two can actually be any class. And uh player one I think has the male versions and player two has the female versions. So it's just kind of really impressive I think because there are a lot more uh sprites a lot more character playable character sprites in the game than there are in the Genesis version which is which is kind of surprising. So uh and I just kind of like how it feels. There's just a good feel to this version. I mean the Genesis version is good too but based on what I've played of this like I almost kind of like the Master System version better. It's just it it surprised me and it was uh only 20 bucks with uh no manual, but I am happy to buy uh Genesis and Master System games with no manual as long as the price is uh appropriately discounted. And I thought 20 was very fair. So, uh we're going to be going to a Retro Booza this coming weekend. Oh, yeah. >> Which is like a little mini convention that happens throughout Germany. uh different shows in different parts of the country. And uh hopefully I'll I'll have u at least a couple more Master System games before I go back home. I do like expanding my Master System collection via Europe. >> It is it is the best place to expand your Master System collection, right? Because it cheaper, plentiful, many more games than were in the US. >> Better games. >> Better games for sure. So like Yeah. And it just works as you as you noted. So that's that's awesome. So yeah, good get all around. So yeah, our adventures have been fun. Um, and I guess the let's see the last thing I wanted to mention, um, I fiddled around with a game recently that caught my eye and I did want to give it a shout out. Have you ever heard of a game called Under the Island? Yeah, I um I don't remember what context it was, but it's on my Steam wish list. I don't know why I added it, but obviously uh I looked at that and it caught my eye. Uh so, uh I know you booted it up. I haven't looked at it a lot, so tell me about it. >> So, I I only spent a couple hours with it so far. Um and it's really interesting because it's essentially a small indie Germanmade, no less, uh Zeldaike game. And what I mean by Zeldaike is that you have a large sort of like overworld map and then you have like internal dungeonyy like areas and you're basically working your way across the world by obtaining tools using said tools to manipulate the environment in a way to allow you to proceed. And it's a gameplay loop that's tried and true. And I just find it satisfying. Like it's very much in that Alundra, you know, alternative Zelda style of game. Nice. We we were talking to our friend Thomas about it yesterday and uh he was saying that it's like kind of the best Zelda inspired game that he's played in quite a while. >> Yeah, it has a has a lot of potential to be that way as well. That's kind of why I was like talking with him again. I was like, "Oh yeah, this is this is really cool. I want to get back to this because it just has like a nice snappy feel. The setup is very quick and you're just in it and like the world is quite beautiful to explore. It's all pixel art, uh, widescreen and everything, but it's just like there's an tremendous amount of detail in the artwork throughout. It's really well animated. Like even things like all the trees and grass just subtly blowing. I love, of course, the clouds. It's got those transparent clouds overhand. >> Oh, I know Cory's a big fan of that, too. >> Yeah, exactly. I love that kind of stuff. It just >> it does take place on an island and it gives you that feeling of going on holiday, if you know what I mean. you know, where you're just like in a place that you've never been and just kind of exploring and breaking it apart. And I love it. And it seems like it's a reasonably short game, like, you know, if you know what you're doing, like a good six, seven, eight hours kind of thing. So, it's quite doable. And that's why like I feel like, you know, I wanted to flag it both as like a cool little game and also like it's it's nice to see some some more German indie games hit the scene. So yeah, check it out. But uh try you still back there? >> I I I I I am. I am. >> Okay. Yeah, he's he's over. Oh, wait. Other side. There we are. There he is. He's right back there. I think it's time to get to the main topic. I don't know about you. >> Yeah, let's let's go for it. >> So, let's talk water sports. So, Troy, back in the '9s, games had this sense of joy. There was this it it's the blue skies era. Sega really brought this home with its racing games in the arcade. Uh especially both, you know, this is super killer stuff starting with Outrun, but then moving into like Daytona USA and so many other games. You look to the skies, they're blue, puffy white clouds fill your view. This was a thing and it's a thing I love. Going back to that, I love arcade racing games and I especially love the vibes. And one of the ways to massively increase that vibe is adding water because then you got the sky reflecting across the water. And there's just something like I have these memories of going to places like was called surf Cincinnati since I grew up in Cincinnati where they actually had an arcade. So after swimming and doing water slides and you dry off, you go into the arcade, you play some games. And I remember playing games like this there, right? >> Yeah. Water sports games. >> I I lived uh I lived in Ohio kind of around the same time. I may have even played one of these at an arcade that you played uh there. Uh what what was the what was the Namco one called? I forget. >> Oh, the Namco one was Aqua Jet, >> right? And it's uh it's a it's on Hamster released it on Switch, right? >> Arcade Archives, it's out. Sega also did Waverunner. Um it was a lot happening in the mid '90s, right? But the point is is like these types of games stick out to me. It's like a trip to the water park in the middle of summer is the vibe I get and I love that feeling. And it's actually Wave Race 64 that kind of kicked off this conversation for us and why we're doing this topic. We were just talking about it and it's like this game is just it's a special time. I've talked about it before on on Digital Foundry, but I felt like we needed to go into this topic a little bit more here, >> talk about the games in general, as well as review some of the tech. But before we get there, this sort of thing, the wave race specifically, you could say there might be earlier examples, but when you're talking wave race, you're talking 1992, you're talking the Game Boy. >> And instead of Blue, instead of Blue, you've got P Green. >> Man, that game is not great. And I I don't think most people really even knew about it until Waver 64 came out. And certainly not in Europe where it was actually released after 1997. >> Yeah. Kind of crazy. If I'm not mistaken, there is a greatest hits version of Game Boy Wave Race. I don't know why. >> That makes you question like what does greatest hits imply? >> Yeah, >> I guess it's pure sales, but did it really sell that well? >> I don't know. I mean, it's not rare. It's pretty cheap, so maybe it sold, but people generally just didn't know about, don't talk about, and with good reason. It's bad. It's not good. It's not like the worst, most offensively bad thing ever. But I I was kind of telling John earlier, it feels like Nintendo's version of a Game Jam game. Like, it feels like they, you know, made this and two or three days and are like, "Hey, this seems kind of good. Let's just release it." And it's there's just not really anything to it. I'm sure it's got its fans. Apologies if you're one of them, but uh for one uh it's kind of a little difficult to play in rem modern re-implementations due to the uh HUD. The HUD is always the HUD and the map are flickering on and off. Uh intending to use the inherent blur of the um of the original Game Boy screen, >> which is smart, I would say, >> to create transparency. not not a bad idea, but but it is, you know, unless you have a uh frame blending effect available on your emulator, whatever. You know, you wouldn't have that available on something like a Super Game Boy or uh you might be able to do with GBI on the Game Boy Player for Gamecube. I I forget if that's an option there, but yeah, basically it's um it doesn't that makes it not look great, and it really isn't a great looking game to begin with. the the mechanics are okay, but there's just there's just nothing really to sink your teeth into. >> Fundamentally, this is actually from what I understand is a creation of a company called PAX Soft Nika, which is a very strange name. Uh, and most of the staff worked on that. And these guys seem to work closely with Nintendo over the years. And they're credited on things like Balloon Kid, Radar Mission, and the like. And they seemingly worked on Donkey Kong 94 as well. Oh well, I mean that's where all their talent went to. >> I guess the key here though is that there is actually some talent that worked on this. But the end result, as you say, is is somewhat subpar. And it's only really mentioned here as a footnote for what would come. And it's interesting that they decided to use this as a spin-off for an N64 series. But the thing about the Game Boy is that even though the hardware is weak and the screen is low quality, um most games ran at 60 frames per second usually, especially for Nintendo. So they actually had smooth scrolling, but uh in this case, not only does it not run at 60 frames per second, it has full screen tearing. Uh so it's not tearing in the traditional like it wouldn't be like a modern game where tearing occurs, right? because of the tile map nature of how the screen works. Like it that doesn't make sense, but you do see it like the screen is basically pulling apart as you race around. >> Yeah, it just it kind of runs down. >> My only guess is that it has to do with the nature of like they struggled with a giant full screen tile map in which the camera can scroll in all directions all the time, right? Which is not the simplest thing to do necessarily. Plenty of Game Boy games did it smoothly, but we can't take that for granted, right? Like maybe there was something there, especially 1992. I don't know what they ran into, but fundamentally, it's just not very smooth to play. And I think that drags it down. And beyond that, like it it just doesn't communicate the the feeling of racing on water all that well. You have these like darker zones and then the lighter zones, and it doesn't work great. Maybe if you played on a Super Game Boy and you edited the color palette to make it look more like water. I don't know. Maybe that could work. Did you ever try that? >> Uh, no. I I mean, I owned the game for a brief time and sold it cuz it wasn't very good. So, I don't recall ever trying it on the on the Game Boy uh Super Game Boy. So, or the Game Boy Color for that matter. I'm sure it has a a default palette. All uh Nintendo games tend to have a default palette that you know seems to be reasonably well thought out for when they're popped into a Game Boy Color. But >> but anyway, >> I just don't think there's any saving this one. >> No, I think you're probably right, unfortunately. But the name would live on >> amazingly. >> Amazingly. >> Why would they Why would they make a sequel to such a dud? And yet >> in 1996, September 27th, seemingly Nintendo released Wave Race 64 Kawasaki Jet Ski. And I think that this is widely considered one of the best like early era N64 games ever still today. In fact, this is honestly, I would say, one of the best N64 games that was ever made. Despite its early release, it truly is a legendary game that even with its low frame rate, which we'll talk about again, it holds up, right? >> Yeah. I mean, I can't remember if my friend back in the day had this or if he just rented it. Um, to be honest, I didn't play that much of it back then. I played it. I liked it quite a bit. I probably rented it myself at some point, but you know, it is a game that is not heavy on content. Uh, and you know, at the time that kind of mattered. You know, as a, you know, middle schooler and high schooler with, you know, limited budget to spend on games, you kind of were looking for more bang for your buck. Um, but then when I kind of rediscovered it, probably early 2000s, maybe 2005, 2006, I I was just like, "Wow, this is amazing." Um, it's just I think one of the best pick up and play games of all time. Um, it it just feels right. It doesn't feel like you're fighting the controls even though the waves are coming at you and affect your uh jet ski, but there is also challenge to it. But especially if you just play through on the normal mode or just relax in Dolphin Park and you know kind of just pull off some simple tricks there. Uh this is just one of the most joyfilled games. I mean you talked about the blue skies, right? like this is a game that will just instantly lift your mood. And much like me, who didn't play that much of it back in the day, which may be surprising considering I'm like the N64 guy, right? Um, but I've talked to I I've been on a podcast that discussed Wave Race 64 uh in part before and uh some of the people on that one had never really played it before and they were blown away by it. uh they were like, "This is just really really fun." I I think basically everyone who's never played it has that reaction whether you're an N64 person or not. Uh although you may have to have tolerance for uh frame rate uh a bit low. So, one thing to note though is that before we talk more about the game again, I do actually want to mention a couple adjacent games because also listed as September that year was Namco's Aqua Jet >> and then the following month Sega's Waveunner, right? All of these games hit around the same time, suggesting that they all kind of like did their own thing, right? >> Yeah. And I noticed when you were uh playing uh Namco's uh sorry I can't remember the name of all these games. They're so generic. >> Aqua Jet. Uh when you were playing Namco's Aqua Jet earlier uh which I'm I'm so sure I played in the arcade back in the day. Ryan the actual jet ski thing. Um the it's all flat, but it still conveys a satisfying sense of being on a jet ski with the way that even if you're playing it on a modern system today without that physical jet ski prop, the you can see from the first person view the tip of the jet ski bouncing. And it really does actually quite a good job of of giving you that satisfaction of riding a jet ski. Not that I can speak from experience, but I I imagine it feels very much like a jet ski. Uh, but it's flat. There's no true waves except when there's kind of um kind of a hill moving towards you in increments. >> It's very simplistic how they do occasional waves. >> So, and this is what I think's interesting is that both Sega and Namco's efforts took advantage of it being an arcade to do the this jet ski prop, right? Where you ride a physical unit that's very special and it actually works. It feels really great. But fundamentally, these two games are they have more in common with like I would say a Daytona or or a Ridger Racer in terms of the actual design. When you play with an analog stick now, you feel it. Obviously, when you play with the actual jet ski and by the way, the arcade we mentioned earlier has this uh they actually have Aqua Jet, so you can still play it today and it's really really cool, but it's actually pretty demanding to like because you're really standing up and moving around and it it's cool, but it shows that uh both Sega and Namco, they were kind of approaching this problem of water in a completely different way where the water itself is essentially just a means to uh this to bring in this jet ski style controller, right? It's like, how can we have this cool water aesthetic with these controls and make it work? And yeah, the water the waves that are in there, and it's the same for both of the slightly smoother in Sega's case, they're just pre-calculated like physically uh I guess modeled out waves that kind of move and roll along that you hit. And the idea is that it actually affects your controls, right? Which is where I think Wave Race comes in. And this is why I think it's so interesting because of the three, Nintendo took a different approach. And I actually feel like you can see this a lot in earlier N64 games, they're really thinking about it. And I I always said it was the silicon graphics effect where they're thinking about more like holistic simulations of things and like really smooth animations in weird ways. Like I Mario certainly has that going on with the animation work, but but Wave Race itself was actually a game designed to sort of simulate real wave patterns within a pool, right? So, you're racing around these tracks and the waves deform and sort of change around you. Now, it's not I I guess I shouldn't say it's it it's not fully dynamic in the same way that you might think. Uh, and it doesn't actually like your boat doesn't or sorry, your jet ski doesn't produce physical wave trails behind it, right? >> Yeah. >> But the effect that they went for is, I think, more effective. And I've thought about this a lot, and I think some of it has to do with the specific nature of the N64 and how it's anti-aliasing and like image quality works. And some of it's just like, you know, a really clever design because the idea here is like essentially the way the game works is it's generating like this undulating warbling polygon mesh surface that is around the player, right? And at 320 x 240 with the smooth anti-aliasing, your eye is can is tricked into thinking that what you're looking at there is like a whole body of water. >> It's part of the extended ocean. But what you said earlier, uh, perhaps unintentionally, you described it as like a pool of water. That's actually kind of true. >> It is. It It's exactly. It looks like it's a whole environment, which in the case of Sega Namco's thing, that's obviously what they thought, right? They're like, "Well, we have to have like a track with water, so like the entire track is like a giant water surface." And they modeled it all out. where Nintendo disconnects the the water simulation from the environment. And that's what I thought made so interesting. The water follows the player. So, I like to think of Wave Race as a game where the water simulation is part of your character model >> and you're just like rolling. You're just like, you know, jumping around on your jet ski and and it's following you. >> That's maybe a bit of a creepy way to think of think about it. Actually, I don't your own personal water playground. >> It's It's part of the character model. I don't like the environment being part of myself. >> But Troy, I think this stuff is really important because this also ties into when we get to it, the sequel to this game, right, on Gamecube and why I think people perceive it so differently >> because fundamentally they change the way the water works around the player. And I do think very specifically this sort of like water following the player trick that they do uh that little bubble around the player is like a huge part of why it feels the way it does. >> Yeah. I mean maybe it was a bit of a serendipitous thing they did it they did that as a technical limitation but it actually maybe ended up making the game more fun. It's it's hard to see, you know, hard to say how much, you know, prototyping with different models they may have done with how they could achieve this effect. >> Exactly. So, that's fundamentally one of the coolest things. And I've shown this before in a video, but you know, when you look at like the wireframes of it, it's quite interesting, but it is just like a polygonal mesh around you that that moves. And I think John that this is where you and I kind of uh are champions for playing games at the original resolution. I know the knee-jerk reaction for people tends to be uh you know higher resolution is always better, right? Higher resolution always better. Uh a lot of people just can't understand why you would play early 3D games at 240p or whatever the original resolution may have been. And there's certainly an appeal to that. You know, I recently have been playing some uh ports based on decompilation and recompilation projects recently, and it's fun, especially when they include texture packs that increase the the resolution of the HUD to make it look more cohesive. Um, but in this case in particular, you can actually kind of see the stillness beyond that wave simulation when you're playing the game at a higher rendering resolution than 240p. and uh you know without that sort of N64 anti-aliasing quality like you mentioned sort of bringing that whole object together the the the the actual mesh the actual you know more kind of background water making that all coherent is really only works because they built this game around the resolution they knew it would be played at. Another part that that's important though, equally important you would say, is that it has this sort of like sheen to it. And this is similar to the Mario 64 uh like the there's like there's parts where you jump into like the liquid, right? And then the of course like metal Mario. >> Mhm. >> It's like they have this way of using textures to simulate like a specular sheen. The waves have that as well. So it's not just like a flat textured moving polygon wave, but the wave the waves have like specular sheen on them that makes it look like the light is reflecting off of it. >> And so you combine that all those things together. And of course if you if you watch the wave simulation just like just if you just sit on your jet ski just watch it, you'll see that different parts of the track are like generating waves from this way way that come. you'll have another part where they're like doing little ripples uh and all these things sort of interact with one another to create this overall simulation, right? And if you watch the and this is one of the coolest parts, the actual character model itself. And this is probably where the where the game is at its best is the way the the character model interacts with that wave surface because uh this was around the time when we started seeing things like inverse kinematics in games and sort of this like attempt at simulating a physical connection to a surface. Virtue Fighter 3 for instance from Sega was all about that, right? Where the characters could stand on slopes and their feet and placement of legs would adjust naturally. That's what Nintendo is doing here with Wave Race. Essentially, that kind of idea of you're staying on a jet ski, but like the character model, he's like balancing, his knees are adjusting, the whole body is moving and changing along with the bobbing of the jet ski. And I think this is very specifically what makes it feel so realistic. Whereas, when you look at other attempts at this, it just looks like a polygon model sort of floating across a surface, right? It's less convincing. doesn't have that the simulation of of an object bobbing within water. >> Yeah, you're right. It's very much this holistic kind of approach to just pulling all these systems together. And you know, the game doesn't have the most levels. It doesn't have the most racers. You know, there's only four playable characters and those four racers in the race itself. So, uh, you know, it it may seem short on content, but I think played just as a purely arcadey, just pure fun, pure joy experience, uh, just it it it it can't be beat for that. And, you know, of course, there's also, you know, the music, which is just so so catchy and and really is a big part of this just being a feel-good game. >> Right. Right. Right. Music's great. The atmosphere is great. I mean, that's the whole reason we're talking about this topic, cuz it does create that that midsummer feeling. You know, you're outside, the this the air is warm but clear. You know, you get that blue sky. It really takes you back. And this really feels right. All three of these games actually, I think, have that vibe. But the way wave wave race plays, it just rewards this like sort of skilled play in a way that I find very satisfying. The best arcade racing games do this where, you know, if you if you jump in an arcade game and you you hit that first corner and you just instantly go around the corner and never get anywhere near hitting the wall, no danger. I think that's a bit dull, right? Wave Race is a game where you fist pick up and you feel like you can do all the moves you need to do, but you may not execute on them that well right out of the gate, but you feel like you can get better and that's what keeps you going. And just doing those races, tightening those times, it feels absolutely incredible to do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's a miracle of a game like especially to have come so early in the N64's life. like 3D games were so new and for them to have nailed this so perfectly from on their first try. I mean, people say that about Mario 64 and it's true. Uh, but I think Wave Race 64 is right there with it. I mean, they just got it so right. You couldn't get it more right than this in my opinion. >> So, Wave Race 64 then I think was a huge success for Nintendo. Uh, it actually got a second release in Japan, the Shindo pack edition. Right. Yeah. >> Which is actually, I think, the cartridge I have in back there. >> So, that obviously you get the rumble feature, which showed up in the controller or the the rumble pack that came with Star Fox 64, at least in the US. >> I I played it yesterday uh and it was very immersive. >> I love that the I think the runway adds a lot to it, right? >> Yeah. And actually something I didn't know about that version, but as I I was playing through it, um like three or four of the levels actually have different music. It It's not completely different music. It's just kind of remixes the music that was there before. Um I like the original better, but that's just because I've been hearing it for so long. >> So long. Yeah. >> But uh that that is neat. There is more that's just a little different about that version than just the Rumble. But yeah, it uh it really does actually kind of add a lot to that that feel. Uh it might actually be hard for me to go back to the uh the non-rumble version. Now, I I felt it was missing when I was playing Blue Storm just a few uh just a few minutes before recording with the Wave Bird, >> right? >> It was like something something's missing. Something's missing. It does actually. I know a lot of people don't like rumble and this might not change your mind, but uh it's still uh it actually does add more than you would think to the sensation and uh in these games to be honest. And you were actually commenting on um the uh the Namco game. I literally asked him not that long ago what's it called? I can't remember. >> It's Aqua Jet. >> Aqua Jet. Aqua Jet. Uh actually you were mentioning the uh Switch 2 version has really good HD rumble. So that's that's actually an avenue that I think uh independent of these like arcade props that uh they can really add a lot with uh old style rumble and uh new style HD rumble. Right. >> Nice. Good. You almost had it. Uh, weirdly enough, like it looks like a lot of the team that worked on this game went off then to make F-ZeroX for N64. I feel like F-Zero and Wave Race always kind of occupy a similar space, you know? >> Yeah, >> but they are very different fundamentally. >> Kind of. I've never thought of them as being too connected. What what I truly think is connected is 1080 Snowboarding. I I don't know to what extent that they might share staff, but that that was kind of a, you know, a popular slightly cooler sport back in the '9s. And it, you know, that was kind of Nintendo trying their hand at that with 1080. And similarly, which we'll get to, the follow-up to Wave Race 64 also the the the developer for that also followed up with a successor to 1080. So those games are very much tied together uh in my mind. You know, they were kind of doing what they could with water uh in 1080 and then frozen water or no, they were doing kind of what they could do with water in Wave Race and then what they could do with frozen water in 1080. The funny thing is though is like we didn't actually there's like this period where we didn't see that much more in terms of like water racing for a little bit. Like I think Namco had had a one called like rapid river in 97 if I recall which was a which wasn't really a racing game. It was like one actually did like you doing rapids, right? You're going down like an inner tube kind of thing. >> Oh, that's fun. Like the Japanese version of tubing then. >> Yeah, you could say that. Uh, and there was some other waterbased games at the time, but actually the next big one, I believe, would have been so, well, okay, let me rewind. Actually, we're talking about uh, N64 here, right? There was also technically something like Jet Moto, which I think is like tangentally related theme-wise, but if you actually look at what Jet Moto is, it's more like buzzing across water rather than actually >> like it's not so much about the water. I mean, I I don't remember if all of the Jet Moto games have this, but there's like that grappling hook mechanic kind of, >> which is sort of strange, but um to me, what I've played of that series, which is not much, it seems more about that than interactions with with water. It's It's a little It's a little different. >> I agree. >> But but cool in its own right. I I haven't really like learned to play it well, but I'm I am intrigued by Jet Moto. So yeah, Jet Moto was a pretty big deal though at Sony. I mean, I guess that the way it worked is like you you kind of buzzed along the surface, right? But you could also ride on roads as well as water and when you were on the water, you know, you would actually get those like splash effects. So, like I guess conceptually I could see some comparisons to Wave Race and like the the way the the racing works I guess shares it's it's it's got some similarities maybe closer to like Aqua Jet and the like actually. But for me, the one I remember the most and it was like 98 99 something like that from Midway was Hydro Thunder. Hey, what are you doing back there? >> Uh Hydro Thunder. Yeah. Uh to be honest, you're going to have to uh >> Oh, so you Okay, so you're not really familiar with Hydro Thunder. >> I I have played it many times, but I've never like I've never clicked with it. I don't I don't know what it is, but it's just it's never >> I love Hydro Thunder, but it is a very different game from Wave Race. >> Uh it is essentially an arcade thrill ride. It car it shares more conceptually with uh I guess like Aqua Jet and WaveRunner in that the water surface is like fixed in place, but I feel like it does a good job of immersing you in this feeling of like splashing across the surface, right? So like first of all, when you think about water, you got to think about the way the water the waves and like the rippling of the water are rendered. And Wave Race 64 obviously did that by manipulating the vertices and creating like a real polygon mesh. The the other games just had like a static water texture of varying transparency levels that you would race across. Hydro Thunder took an approach I would say it's more similar to what like Epic did with Unreal on the PC actually where it's just a really nicely animated texture >> and the animated texture has like specularity and everything in it. So, it's like the way it moves looks really good visually, but it's not like interactive in the same way, but it doesn't matter because they crafted >> really fun adventure tracks. Uh, to me, it's almost like a like an extreme follow-up water-based version of Cruisin in a way. >> Well, okay. So, >> because you're you're playing with a steering wheel, especially in the arcade. the arcade like the sound and like the rumble and the control, the feeling of being in that cabinet. You like you you like feel it big time and just like slam when you slam down into the water off of a jump. You feel it and it's awesome. And like all those tracks and like the layouts like it's really tough and it's mostly focused on nabbing boost icons and like managing your boost around corners and dealing with the other boats as you try to make your way to the top. Uh, but I felt like that was that was one of the ones where like in the arcade more than the Sega Namco efforts, like Hydro Thunder was everywhere in US arcades back then and it was like this awesome like boat racing just action and I loved it. So try if you haven't if you really don't have experience with this, I think you should give it another shot. It's really good. >> Well, and it's got ports on >> everything. >> Uh, I mean N64 and Dreamcast were the first ones I knew of. I guess there's a is there a PS1 port? >> There's a PS1 port and guess what? It's not bad. >> Yeah, really? I've never actually seen You would think it wouldn't be that good, but yeah, I haven't. Uh, but now remind me uh uh there's an, if I recall correctly, Hydro Thunder Hydro Thunder's original release is not compatible with Dreamcast VGA mode. Uh, do you want the hot new Hydro Thunder? Is that right? Am I remembering correctly? hot new is the better one. Um, if I or maybe it's I can't there's some weirdness with VGA and especially RGB when it comes to that, right? Although, if you really want to experience it properly, you could just play the Tiger Electronics version. >> Did you Did you know that exists? >> No. >> Yeah, >> I did not know that. Okay, so that one um it's it's a weird year 2000 release and it uses I don't actually know enough about the hardware inside, but it's not like the old Tiger systems, right? It's not like the early '9s where it was just like a printed LCD screen with like specific elements on it. It actually generated like a pseudo 3D looking thing. I I always wondered if it was derived from the Gamecom because it kind of looks and moves like a Gamecom game where it's like it tries to be 3D but it's um Yeah, it's questionable. >> Wow. >> You know, we did see recently that there's like a upcoming game that is aping the uh LCD game look uh but with smooth animation. So, you know, I guess there's some creative value to be found in that uh simplistic pallet, but those actual games, I never derived much enjoyment from them. >> I agree. There was also um there was this game I had for the PC back in the day. I think it was called like powerboat racing from ah >> I forget who did it but I had this VR it was it was maybe the interplay really like VR sports powerboat racing and it was uh >> it wasn't great but I had it cuz I was really into these like water sports games back then. I really wanted to play them and enjoy them and so I went I went for that. Not great. I think that also shipped on PS1. There was also something called like Aqua GT for the PS1 that tried to be more like Hydro Thunder and >> it's not horrible. It it actually has a pretty impressive like warbling polygon water surface, >> but it's not that great either. So, >> but on PS1 and Dreamcast, did anyone really come close to the sort of wave >> no >> concept that uh Wave 64 did? That's the thing is like I don't believe that anyone ever did. There's actually one game that I like to talk about that actually got pretty close. Uh do you do you want to talk about it? Try you want me to talk about this? I feel like I need to bring it up. >> Uh Wave Rally. >> Yes. But I >> I can't talk about this. All I know is that John tells everyone he meets that Wave Rally is pretty good. Then they go buy it and they're like, "Oh, it's actually not that good." But John keeps telling people to buy >> I don't know why you guys don't like it. >> I mean, it's I don't know. Something Something feels off. Something It just feels off. Maybe after this recording you can you can make me try to get it. >> Here's here's my mind. So, okay. >> We're obviously going to get to Waveways Blue Storm because that's that's like the big deal here. But this is one I want to talk about. >> And did it release before Bluetorm? actually came just after. >> Okay. >> But it's the same year. Uh this darn thing was essentially an attempt at bringing the Wave Race style experience to PS2. And there's another game that does this as well, but this is Jet Skies. Uh and it's very specifically uses the same sort of like water reflection system and like wave system as Wave Race Bluetorm where it has sort of this like deformable dynamic mesh. uh one that actually changes uh around you and it reflects the scenery using I guess render to texture. So it has like really nice reflections. Um it is I think the my here's my take is that I think a lot of people struggle with this one because it looks so much like wave that your like brain expects it to be wave and when it doesn't play like Wave Race you just like some people just shut down. They're like ah this isn't Wave Race. >> Yeah. I just remember the animation just feeling a little like jerky and >> it's a little jittery looking because they're trying to simulate like skipping across the water in a weird way, but I think once you get into it, it's quite cool. And the the big technical thing that it has going for it is that >> it runs at 60 fps, which uh is not the case with Wave Race Blue Storm. And I actually forgot to mention earlier, Wave Race 64 was a 20fps game, >> but >> but >> it's tuned for that, right? >> It's tuned for that. >> You know, just like I I like to argue that uh Stunt Race FX, whatever frame rate that runs at, the game feels good because it its controls were architected around that very well. >> Even I have to admit that feels weirdly okay to play. Yeah. >> Which is strange given how choppy it is. And I think the ultimate proof of this actually goes back to uh that era where you had stunt race effects running at like 7 fps and then on the Atari Jaguar you had checkered flag, right? They they did a checkered flag for it first on the Atari links, then on the Jaguar. Checker flag runs at a similar frame rate on race effects, but the game is not tuned for it. The game speed is so high, the car speed is so high, and there's just not enough frames to actually show it. like you your brain and body cannot react properly to the to the track or the handling because the frame rate's too low and it's not designed for it. Whereas SunRace FX like when you start to press a button it it really starts to lean into it in a weird way, right? Like it like anticipates you in a way that makes it actually like somehow playable, >> which is not true with checkered flag. And that's the case with Wave Race where you know it's other contemporaries like Aqua Jet and Waveunner. 60 fps arcade games, but the 20 FPS wave race manages to feel even better, >> you know. And, you know, I'm just going to throw this out there because I I would actually be kind of curious what the if the DF audience is maybe a little bit split on this, but my take is that as a uh racing games being that they primarily move in the Z-axis, yeah, >> uh are actually one of the genres that can most easily get away with lower frame rates. But I know that like super hardcore racing fans, including uh my friend John Lenman here, uh really feels he really feels that uh that extra, you know, 120 or beyond FPS. And for me, I for me personally, that's kind of wasted on racing games, you know, modern or older. Like, sure, you do have the lateral movement when you turn, but the the Z-axis movement for me, the strong focus on Z-axis movement makes it feel like you can get away with lower frame rates. You know, I I mean, even, you know, Richard Led Better was a big proponent of um playing uh Horizon uh five on uh 30 FPS mode, you know, because it looks so good and >> played pretty much just as good. So around a similar time actually um so let's let's just say it this like the time around Wave Race Blue Storm actually was was actually like uh this was like round two for these water games right because you had Wave Race Blue Storm on Gamecube which was a launch game in the US and I guess Japan. Uh, and then you had, as I mentioned, Wave Rally, not a big deal, but one that actually got a lot of attention, weirdly, was Splashdown, which may predate the Gamecubes launch in the US. >> Oh, really? That that game is everywhere. Like, you go to a retro store, it's just it's there. So, yeah, it was >> So, the reason So, Splashdown, I think, deserves a little bit of attention because they took a different approach to this that I think is kind of neat. They developed a So, this was actually made by Rainbow Studios. They did like motocross madness and on PS2 specifically they did the ATV off-road fury games which I actually really liked. Like they were really known for these cool terrain systems where you kind of like you know you're manipulating your ATV or motorbike through this kind of like terrain like putting your weight where you like lean back and then lean forward at the right time to like throw your bike around. It feels great. uh for Splashdown, they developed a really impressive water simulation for PS2 and then I guess it came to Xbox as well, but it's just like it's got the specular component and like the waves and everything just looks very realistic. It's very beautiful. But what they did differently is that uh other watercraft leave polygon trails. So the actual water itself, while not reflective, looks pretty realistic. But as you race through it, you actually see uh other jet skis leave leave their wake behind them. >> And so like as you race, like if you're behind everybody, the water is like much rougher and it actually does slightly affect your handling. So the water has like a more like uh interactive surface that they didn't really do on anything else. And I think that does admittedly look really really cool. Now, I will say the actual track layouts and the handling are not as exciting as Wave Race, but it's a cool little game and it did get a sequel, which we'll get to because it came out a bit later and that's uh they went a little bit crazy with it. >> We can't we can't forget that one. >> No, this one's far more realistic to me. It looks like ATV offered Fury like terrain and trees but with like water filled in and then they put a bunch of water ramps and water obstacles around. So, it's kind of neat looking. It's like they flooded the tracks in their other games and you're racing around inside the flood zone, which is cool. I think Wave Race Blue Storm specifically, it was a big deal when it launched, right? I mean, Try, you were there. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, I got a Gamecube six months after launch, I think. But even I was aware of this right out of the gate. Uh but you got you played this pretty early, right? >> Day one. Yeah, I thought so. I picked up >> Luigi's Mansion, Wave Race, uh Blue Storm, and Star Wars Rogue Squadron. This was uh my first home console day one. Uh, and uh, yeah, I, you know, it was actually a really good game to play in that launch period because it's a game that I think is best played in shorter sessions. Um, and a lot of the reason behind that is because you could get frustrated with it. It is um, it's hard. It's it's uh, you know, it's if you look at the core of it, it's actually quite simple. It's the and the setup is very similar to Wave Race 64 uh where you you know kind of slalom between these uh buoys. You have to pass them on to left or right and you know you get slightly faster if you charge up your meter without missing any. If you miss uh I forget if it's five or six then you uh you're done. You've screwed up. Um so the one of the things that they added was a turbo function. You know, if you uh fully fill up your meter, you can press uh the X button or the Y button or maybe either, I forget. Um you can press the button uh I think the X button for a turbo uh which can actually be very difficult to learn where to use in a way that it's not going to end up uh actually uh being troublesome for you and you know causing you to fall off your jet ski and waste a bunch of time. when you screw up in this game, it's actually very hard to kind of write yourself. Um, you really have to kind of be on the ball. So, this is a And I guess the other thing is that uh the RNL triggers um you help you lean into your turn. This isn't really something you have to worry about in uh Wave Race 64. Well, not the original, the good one. >> The good one. >> The good original. Um, and so you use the RNL triggers to lean into your turn and you really really have to utilize that. And did games like Wipe Out I forget if W did Wipeout kind of do like the trigger leaning thing? >> Oh yeah, I thought so. That's that's kind of where this comes from is Wipeout was entirely based on this precise like trigger manipulation mechanic. You needed it to get around the corners. And that's that's the difference here is like this to me this was like adopting more of a wipeout style of play to the wave race formula. >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh F-Zero F-ZX and U later DX >> I would say a bit less so >> a bit less so for sure. It's not as required but it it assists you. It assists you. It helps. >> Um whereas Wave uh Wave Race Bluestorm you really have to use it. And so, you know, I think people who come from Wave Race 64 and see how pick up and play it is and just you you can have fun just instantly in it. Wave Race Blue Storm is a game you have to work for. Uh it it makes you kind of it rewards uh you know, try try again. It it it it's something that you're you're not going to finish that you know, first normal cup on your first try. It's going to take several tries. it it it's a difficult game and you can learn it. Uh I I remember, you know, I did like it back in the day, but like I said, it was a game that, you know, I'll play Luigi's Mansion for a while, take a break, do a quick stint of Bluetorm, play Rogue Squ Rogue Leader for a while, um you know, and go back to Bluestorm. So like, you know, just playing it for 30 40 minutes at a time is kind of what works best for it. you know, you just kind of step away and you'll come back and and you'll be better. You can learn it. In fact, I kind of got back into it a few years ago. Uh I hadn't played in a long time and my first reaction was, "Woo, this really did not age well, did it?" I mean, I know it's uh much less popular than um 64, but uh I'd always been a defender of it, and I was like, "Woof." But then I kept playing. I kept playing and I kept I kind of started recovering my skills. Uh, and I was playing again today. Wasn't doing very good at first, but I tried again and again and again, and I unlocked the hard mode, you know. So, it is a game that you kind of personally skill up in. Uh, it it rewards uh sticking at it, but it is not a pick up and play experience. >> Yeah. Uh when you first pick it up, I always have this feeling of like going full speed to a corner and then you miss the corner and slam into the wall or like go out of bounds >> and and when you hit the wall, you you it's not easy to turn yourself around and get on the right track. >> No, you're fighting with it. And also there's also like tricks and stuff in here. You like jump and move around on your um >> Right. So Wave 64 has a trick system as well, which is really just for fun. Like it's mostly just something to do in Dolphin Park. You can do handstands, ride the jet ski backwards, do barrel rolls, forward flips. You know, I sometimes try to do those in the races for fun, and I've always found that they tend to just make me lose time. Um, they're they're not there's no practical application to them in WA 64 to my knowledge. Uh, this game actually does have a stunt mode. I've never been too into stunt stuff like uh I think that's one reason that I've never like taken maybe to the same like snowboarding games a lot. >> I was thinking of like SSX and stuff which was getting big around this time. >> Exactly. Exactly. So I think that's why uh they wanted to include that stunt mode to kind of let that subsystem shine on its own. I I I'm pretty sure I beat the stunt mode back in the day, but I it's not something I've ever gone back to. It's not terribly interesting to me personally. >> So earlier I mentioned something about the way that Wave Ray 64 works in relation to the player, right, with the the roving water. And I connected to this idea of like what if the change in the water simulation has to do with some of the backlash to this game that happened initially. >> Yeah. Most people probably wouldn't have perceived what the difference is, but it feels different. It does feel different. And I've wondered, so obviously the handling plays the biggest role here, but the the thing is is when you look at this, you realize they fundamentally massively altered how the game is like works as a track level because now the water itself fills the entire area, right? So it's a giant dynamic polygon mesh that's beautifully rendered uh with nice render to texture uh >> reflections. Yeah, it looks great. I mean, make no mistake, it looks great, >> but it actually it does it is not something that's drawn like dynamically or or like drawn around your character, right? Like it's not clipped from view when you're not within the frame. Instead, it's all it fills the whole area along with the rest of the scenery. And it's like it does kind of somehow change something about the way it feels. I It's hard to explain. And you know, it also adds a weather system, which is one of the reasons that it's much more challenging. But there's actually an interesting strategy to it because when you're playing through the championship mode, you can actually see the weather forecast. And with the exception of the last course for the championship, you can actually choose the order of your courses. So the courses that you're better at, you might want to choose on the stormy day, and the courses that you're worse at, choose on the sunny day. So they that's actually a really cool uh sort of feature. Uh but it it does you know uh change things quite a bit and you know especially like on the the Aspen Lake level you can have you know fog at the start of the level that lifts much like on the N64 game and it's Drake Lake level uh which is very beautiful. >> No Drake Lake. It doesn't sound quite as cool these days when you say that. >> Wow. It it it it the other thing on that though that's fun is like because of that they with the way the tracks are built they can mess more with the uh height of the water >> like on some laps and some tracks like the actual like height of the water can determine whether you can hit a certain jump or not, right? Yeah. >> And I think that kind of stuff is neat because it makes the whole world feel more dynamic and the tracks feel more dynamic because they're able to like adjust the entire water plane. >> Both like the simulation of the waves as well as the height >> uh and the surrounding weather and all those physics have an impact on the player movement across the water. >> Yeah. And not just that, um, when you play on the higher difficulties, they, uh, different, uh, parts of each track are opened or closed, uh, depending on the difficulty level. So, there's actually changes that you, uh, need to take into account uh, that, you know, you're going through more complex uh, routes uh, or, you know, levels that might have um, at least I think that's how it works. Now that now I'm second guessing myself. And I'm wondering if the alternate paths are just for the stunt mode. >> It's been a it's been a it's been a it's been a while. >> Been a hot minute. >> It's been it's been a while since I delved into the higher difficulties, but uh or the stunt mode. Uh but yeah, I mean they they come up with more I think they actually did a very good job of coming up with more ways to add variety. Uh when the previous game admittedly doesn't have a lot of that even though it's it's so fun to play. Um they they they did a good job of thinking kind of thinking those things through. >> Yeah, I would agree with that. Um, it actually reminded me though, so like around the same time then another um, so Wave Race Blue Storm I think was like the biggest water racing game of that year, but Sony had another one as well. Have you ever played Jet X2? >> I have not. >> Uh, that actually well that actually came out in 2002, but that was another jet ski game and this one was a Sony first party release and it actually even had like a foil print cover and everything. Oh, >> but I and it's to me this always felt like a it's like a more it has a water simulation that more resembles splashdown, but it's like a bit more extreme in terms of the track designs. So, that's that's another cool one that I think is is worth checking out. But what I what I meant to think of from 2001, which is the same year as all these other games, uh what did you know that Waverunner from Sega had a GP release? >> I did not. I believe this is Naomi based or at least one of the newer hardwares, but it's basically like uh another it's like an enhanced version of Waverunner. >> Okay. >> Uh b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b b based on more recent arcade hardware and it's it's the same idea and it's still a flat water surface, but they have more effects and all that to make it look a little bit more appealing, I would say. But in terms of like the type of simulation that Wave Race Blue Storm does, the only other game that really attempts to do the same thing is Wave Rally. >> It's not and it's not as good. >> So that's that's what where you're coming from. But although Wave Race Bluetorm is 30 FPS, Wave Rally is >> 60. Um >> but Wave Race Bluetorm probably still handles better, I have to admit. >> Right. Right. Right. And you know, at the end of the day, Wave Race 64, the 20 FPS game controls better, too, right? So, it's uh it's kind of kind interesting how that uh how that that shakes out. But but I I do think Wave Wave Race Bluetorm is is quite an interesting game. And you know, speaking of the the way the way that they handle wave simulation stuff, something we didn't talk about is the developer of Wave Race Bluetorm, um, which is NST, Nintendo Software Technologies is what I think that stands for. And, um, I I honestly don't know if they're still around, but they are, uh, are or were a North American, uh, development branch of Nintendo in Seattle. uh kind of originally, as far as I know, made uh sort of a place for like uh graduates from the DigiPen uh game development college to go to. Th this is stuff that's just burned into my memory from reading Nintendo Power back in the day. So, uh this could uh could be a little fuzzy uh my memory, but they were kind of given projects where they could make uh new entries uh in series that uh other developers uh maybe weren't doing anything with. They they never, as far as I know, did anything terribly original, but they did um they did Pokemon Puzzle League on the N64, which was just Tetris Attack or Panel Day Pon. They did RA uh Ridgeraer 64. They uh did Bionic Commando Rearmed for Capcom, which was just a new 2D Bionic Commando game on Game Boy Color. Uh and so going into the Gamecube, >> Whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you say Rearmed? >> Elite Forces. >> Oh, yeah. I was going to say I was like, "Wait, Rearmed is the Grin game that shipped on PS3 and PC and I was like, uh, >> it's the better game." Re uh uh Elite Forces, Byron Commando: Elite Forces is good. Uh for the first half, it gets very frustrating and Yeah, that's what I thought. >> Uh but the first half is good. It's not It's an ugly game, though. It's like it's it's not a good-looking game. Uh they they has interesting animation but it's it's not the best looking. Anyway, so you know kind of a a studio mostly run by very young inexperienced developers and I think they did good considering that. um in general um you know they never did anything that you know became some big knock it out of the park thing but uh on the whole you know they did good work and I think fulfilled the need that Nintendo's platforms had for games like that at that time um and I would say Wave Race Blue Storm is overall their best work aside from maybe Pokemon Puzzle League but I mean Pokemon you know pal panel day pond like you how do you how do you screw that They also tackled, I believe, uh uh the the um the sequel to 1080, didn't they? >> That's right. Uh 1080 Avalanche. And if they've done things beyond that, I I don't >> Did you know I think it's called Silvertorm in Japan? >> Ooh, that's Ooh, >> I KNOW. >> That's Ooh, that like See, that's that's what I'm saying. These games are kind of like 1080 and Wave Race are kind of linked together and all. Blue Storm. Silver, >> I know. It's so good. Silver Storm. Yes. >> Oh, that's good. I actually played through uh 1080 Avalanche, I don't know, three, four years ago, and it's not as good as the N64 game, much like Blue Storm. Not quite as good as the N64 game. Um there there is more of a focus on tricks again, I think, in the Gamecube game. Um it's okay though. I liked it more than I thought I would, but you know, most people seem to be very hung up on SSX. So, the 1080 games like have kind of left the retro gaming consciousness, I would say. Uh, just because people were like, SSX is better. >> It's unfortunate. I I I do prefer SSX by a long shot, but I still love 1080. Yeah, >> I think when we talked Wave Race 64, I think most people that have played it would agree that it was a phenomenal game and like we're largely on that same page, but I think there's still a lot of people that don't view Blue Storm as positively and I do think it's worth a second shot and I do think it's worth committing to it, especially given where we're at now. Like at at the time there was more in the way of arcade racing, but you play it now, it's like there's not many games like that, but >> it still holds up really well, I think. Like it's still really fun and beautiful. And >> yes, uh the the music uh never was as good as the N64. It's It's more kind of technoeye, I guess. Sort of. I I don't know if that's the way to put it really. I'm not a music genres guy. I just know about yodelling. Um, but uh, but it's very much worth playing. Like I said, just remember the context of it being a launch game and you had other things that you were interested in playing. So, just play it in short bursts and then try the championship again the next day and the next day and the next day and you're going to find yourself getting better at it. Just remember, you got to lean into those turns. Try different characters, see which ones um you know, high maneuvering doesn't necessarily mean the turning into those uh tight corners is going to be easier. Maybe you need someone that has slightly less maneuvering, but also less speed and higher acceleration. Like kind of find what the right balance is for you. There's eight characters to choose from, eight racers um concurrent during a race in Bluetorm as opposed to half that in the previous game. Um, and by the way, a lot of the characters are shared between uh 1080 and uh Wave Race uh particularly uh on the Gamecube. Um, and they they had like a really cool illustration style actually for uh both uh Blue Storm and Silver Storm. I really like the just kind of the sketchy sort of uh designs for the the different characters. I I I think I I think they're really appealing. >> Also, the uh the variable announcers. >> That's right. Each uh each character has its own like uh I don't know what you call pit crew type. >> The board one is my favorite. >> Um >> where he's just like oh take a left turn if you want kind of like I don't know exactly what the lines were but it's it has that energy like >> Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of variety with that. Everyone has kind of their own icon. I like uh Dave Mariner's hamburger icon. >> Uh yeah, he he's he's a little too fast and and poor controlling for me though. But uh also uh there's sponsorships in um in Wave Race Blue Storm. I I don't know what they all are. You know, the the textures on the the jet skis are quite low res. Uh but you know, you've got like McDonald's, I think Skittles, it was hard to kind of see. Uh Slim Gym, Dr. Pepper. I mean, all all the best uh gamer fuel brands uh uh uh uh supported uh Wave Race Bluetorm, whereas you know um Uh Kawasaki had uh advertisements in Wave Race 64 which I think had to be removed uh and replaced with something for like Virtual Console and Nintendo Switch Online releases if I'm >> not Kawasaki was like right on the box I think in the original. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't remember if all re-releases replaced that, but they definitely did with some. >> They should have got the Sidu license instead. >> See? Yeah. >> Take that Kawasaki. >> Yeah. But yeah, I think that's kind of the take on that. The thing is though is after 2001 and that period, there was that burst of those types of games and then it kind of went quiet mostly. Like I think the the big one that comes up is a Splash Town rides gone wild. I mean, I don't I don't know if it comes up that often, but >> No, it's like it's actually I kind of ignored it until recently and we checked it out last year and I was surprised like you're doing the first lap and it's like, okay, this is like a buttoned up splashdown game and then all of a sudden the HUD starts flickering and I was like, wait, is a PS2 glitching out? And you get warped into a different dimension. It's like a ship graveyard. Everything's exploded and weird and like the track just gets crazy and there's like aliens abducting people. Everything's crashed and exploding and I'm like, "Okay, I see what's going on." So, it's basically just like they go nuts with the level designs and like warp you around and you end up it's it's fun because it's just so like unexpected and over the top >> and also technically impressive because like how are they doing that seamless like warping uh on PS2? I mean, that's a lot of level data to be loaded. >> Yeah. And I mean, it's it's pretty wild to see. Like, I don't think the game looks amazing or anything, but like it's it's nice enough. And like the tech plays well. Plays well. >> What they're doing with it makes it like a really interesting. So, the way I look at it is I feel like Rides Gone Wild sort of marries the more button-down uh jet ski racing of of a of Splashdown or Wave Race with the arcade high-flying action of Hydro Thunder. >> Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot. >> Hydro Thunder had events. Nothing quite as crazy as this, but like it kind of reminded me of some of the Hydra Thunder stuff a little bit. So, like it is kind of like an attempt to marry the two, if you will. And yeah, just as a result of that, like I really like it. I think it's worth playing. >> Yeah, I you know, as as someone who's, you know, not super taken by a lot of these jet ski games that everyone loves, like Hydro Thunder, like I do, I do give a thumbs up to uh Splashdown Ride. >> Try Hydro Thunder was boat racing. >> Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm just kidding. Excuse me. It's still a wave race of sort. It's a wave race of sorts, but >> damn the torpedoes. >> Uh, Splash Down Rides Gone Wild just to set expectations. You aren't like warping to other dimensions in every level. Like the second level, you know, it's kind of wacky because you're driving or or wave racing around dinosaurs and stuff, but it's a pretty straight >> dino park. >> Otherwise, it's a pretty straight like uh, you know, just threelap race or whatever. But, um, >> exactly. So, John, you know, if uh if there was to be a big revival of uh you know, water racing games, like playground games. >> Man, I've always wondered about this cuz like um we got this weird tease in Connect Sports Rivals, if you recall from Rare >> where they had the jet ski and when you look at it today, you're like, man, this looks so good. Like I would love to play this for real, but I didn't like playing it with Connect cuz I just don't find that input method fun or enjoyable. But I always wondered like what could have been there. Uh, and it's a shame we didn't really get that. There is a game called like Aquamoto Racing or something that is pretty good looking, but I haven't actually played enough of it to know whether it's actually any good. Uh, we did get um there was there was the 2010 Hydro Thunder Hurricane I think on Xbox which is done by a different team, >> right? >> And it was less good. Uh, >> and then there was um H2 H2 Overdrive. Oh, >> so H2 Overdrive was a more recent I think it was possibly Raw Thrills related, but but it was >> that was the true sequel to the original Hydro Thunder, >> and it's super cool. If you can find it, I I really like H2 Overdrive, but >> no no uh console ports. >> No. And that's that's actually like retro by this point anyway, but like it was an HD era like racing game and it was awesome looking and yeah, we never really got home port of that. So there's some of this stuff around if you look, but like that there was that golden era between like 96 and like 2002 where we just saw a ton of these like waterbased racing and like arcade style games and I really really love that and we've had a hard time getting back there and I do think there's still something viable here and I do wonder man like I would I would love just straight track designs but I'm wondering if you could do a more open playground ground feel like not necessarily full on Fortza Horizon, but imagine the >> Mario Kart World for format where you could go around and and you know go through uh a ring to activate a challenge or something like that. I mean, I can I can have a great time just playing in Dolphin Park in both Wave Race 64 and Bluetorm and >> just something more free form like that like just with some different ramps and things you could do. I think the Mario Kart world format would actually, you know, it that open world doesn't actually offer that much to do, but I think they could maybe more uh completely fulfill what that open world could have been with like a Wave Race type concept. >> Right. Right. Right. >> So, Wave Race Switch 2, let's let's see it. >> I agree. And I think more than Mario Kart World even, I think it would hold up super well just because >> uh >> I mean Mario Kart World kind of has that, right? You your carts kind of transform into instead of going underwater like you do in Mario Kart 8, you actually kind of get like a jet ski style thing and and some characters even kind of stand on on them. Uh depending on what kind of vehicle it is, much like uh >> much like True Much like Wave Race 64. I I I I can't believe we didn't even think about how Mario Kart World has a lot of those systems in it already, come to think of it, >> but you know, a lot of people have said that they don't find the water part of that game to be very fun. I like it. >> I like it, but I don't think it's a replacement for proper wave race. And because of the mechanics of a wave racers being what they are, I think it's it would be more fun to have an open world to explore >> than I agree. Especially with all the tricks you can pull off and stuff like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's much more binary in Mario. You just like hit the button while you're in the air to do a trick, whereas there's actually a little bit of like >> finagling and skill and performing the the wave race tricks. Yeah, that >> man, I I didn't think about that till just now, but that >> that would be great. >> That that would be great. I I didn't even think like the elements are already kind of there. the start the start of what could be Wave Race 60 or Wave Race 128 or whatever are there in Mario Kart World. Man, I want it now. >> If only. I feel like they'll try with that. It's probably a good place to wrap up. >> I think we've done it. Yeah, >> we've kind of covered a lot of this stuff off. And it just makes me want to go play more arcade racing games right now. I think I'm going to go play some Wave Race after this. We should we should do that together. >> We should >> that that would be a good time cuz I love these games and yeah, give them a shot if you haven't played them for a while and and maybe someday we'll see another one. But that's going to do it for this twoperson episode. Let us know what you thought of this one. Uh sometimes it makes sense. We decided to try it today given that we were in person. Spice it up a little bit. You know, he's been back there the whole time doing doing his thing, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There you are. doing what I do, you know, >> exactly as you do. Um, so yeah, thanks for coming all the way from America just to record this episode >> just for this podcast. No, no other no other just this podcast. >> Flew in this morning, keep flying back tonight. >> Absolutely. Uh, and thank you all for watching. Hopefully you enjoyed it. Hopefully you enjoy the nice, cool, beautiful water. So dive in and have a good old time. We'll see you next time. Heat.

It's the Digital Foundry Supporter Program that makes the DF Retro Super Show possible! Support the team, support the show, get high quality, ad-free video downloads of all DF content: https://patreon.com/digitalfoundry John Linneman has a house guest: none other than Marc 'Try4ce' Duddleson, wearing a hat. The pair front the latest episode of the DF Retro Super Show, discussing what they've been up to and what retro pick-ups they've acquired before moving on to the main topic of the show: a retrospective look at the Wave Race games on Nintendo consoles and other games that focused on water rendering with impressive results. 00:00 - Introduction 01:45 - John and Try's Adventures in Germany & France 07:03 - Game Pickups 19:11 - Main Topic - Wave Race on Game Boy 26:28 - Wave Race 64 43:42 - Other Water Racing Games 1:00:07 - Wave Race: Blue Storm 1:19:50 - More Water Racing Games and Wrap Up