Prot Asks: Logan about fiction, conflict, escapism, and life lessons

uh start recording. Hello there. Uh thank you for uh joining me. Uh let's start with a few basics. Uh please tell me who you are and what do you do in general. >> Yeah. So um I'm Logan uh from Canada and I am just a student. Uh technically I'm actually just a uh they call general science student but in practice I mostly do uh computer science courses you know uh like uh theoretical computer science or whatever but just undergrad um studying in university um and then uh for hobbies um I mostly just do uh and this is what I do Emacs and kind of how I found Uh I do uh writing like uh fiction writing. >> Uh I also do uh some some I guess kind of maybe uh non-fiction writing sort of similar to to you actually like some I don't post anything but just more like a short blog that is just thoughts about this but I don't actually post so it's not a blog just I guess a diary essay whatever you want to say. Uh sometimes I do short little things like that. Um and then uh I also do uh coding uh for school obviously and then uh notewriting for school and then uh but also uh coding for my own little uh mostly a game development kind of but but very indie. I do myself as well mostly a hobby not uh like of course not really professional. Maybe one day but um and I'm not really strongly about whether I will do this or another kind of uh software. >> Okay. Okay. So um general science you said what is that in broad terms because to me sounds like it it is a little bit of everything like a little bit of math a little bit of physics a little bit of computer science or is it a more focused? So the general science is like I think in the past actually there was way more people that did uh like maybe you've heard the liberal arts degree. >> It's like this is the science version of this, right? So they're just like you whatever you like, you can do whatever. So some people they do a little bit of literally everything. They take one chemistry, one biology, one uh geology course that kind of just continues off from high school. A lot I guess a lot of people that they were like I I did chemistry, biology, physics, maybe even computers. In high school, um then I would like to keep doing these in university. I like the B. That was not necessarily me. I actually had a sort of weird uh thing where I um I wanted to do a very specialized degree actually in that sort of like a game development but then just reading more I was like I think this is too specialized. I'm not sure. I don't know if I'm I guess like uh I would want to like hitch myself to this. It seems like these people are extremely kind of passionate. I mean I was passionate about a lot of things to a certain extent but just I I I I reconsidered for a bit and then I like sort of in a little bit panic said to all the universities that I applied to like hey I'm not because I applied only for mostly this and then some other uh specialized ones and then I said I'm not really sure if I'm ready to do something so specialized but this was very last minute. It was really a little bit of bad foresight on my part but um only some universities said or because it was so last minute oh you can do a generalized degree we can switch your thing so then I just said okay um but that's why sort of it's actually a little unorthodox for me to do so many uh computer science usually the general degrees they at least for my university they say don't do so many but the um assistant dean I guess is nice and says you can do whatever you want. >> Um and I guess I just um there's other uh prerequisites in the mainstream computer science I not really interested in doing. So um >> I see. But I guess the general degree makes sense from a longer term perspective if you plan on doing a second degree like a master's degree where now you choose a specialization. I guess that's how it would work. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With that of course that kind of stuff uh for me is something to think about. >> Um but yeah. >> Mhm. So uh how did game development come about? Like I imagine you started uh tinkering with that from an earlier age or did you pick it up at university? >> Uh not really. I mean I had uh there was two high school classes I had that were very like I thought they were very actually just fun programming classes. Um it was using some weird kind of like modification of C++ or something or even C. I don't know that that that element was a bit weird, but I mean it's all really the same. Um, at least that kind of element. Um, but so I don't really remember what they were using some kind of weird software and I don't really know why, but still I found it very like fun. Um, that was around when uh there was like very much co though um for me. Um. >> Mhm. >> So I felt like that that kind of development for me was a little bit disrupted and it actually took me a little while to be like, okay, coming back to uh um this kind of um I took a break, right? Um and for me up until that point it wasn't really natural to take uh school kind of um activities and then put like transform them into maybe hobbies or like offtime academic study I guess. Um, most of my other hobbies were very much like kind of removed from like school like uh or just any sort of kind of serious study or or even like programming I guess cuz programming is kind of a little bit of in its own realm I think where it's like you know it's like it's very directively connected to like an academic field and like other even more kind of like abstract academic fields like math. >> Mhm. Um, but at the same time there are you can there's some people like you can just fool around, right? Um, whereas I mean I know there's some people that make maybe like alternative history videos or something. So I guess you can say okay that's the equivalent in like history or something but in general like uh you know like my other hobbies are like playing like the drums or something like I know that nowadays there is somebody that does an academic history of drumming or something like there is everything just because things have become so specialized but in general you don't really think like okay I'm going to move my drumming hobby like kind of move that into academic study or vice versa kind of Um, not that some people don't find academic study fun, but I think just in general the lines are more distinct. Um, but actually I think that I wasn't really going to think about games that much to be honest if I didn't find sort of the like what I was doing in university like right now at least the application of it a little bit dry. I sort of find very some of the assignments a little bit like wrote and dry very much. So then it's like oh yeah but I have developed this skill and then I remembered oh oh my gosh it was so fun even at the beginner level to make these honestly pretty crappy games when you're first doing it in high school. So I was like why would I not try to you know tinker a bit? I found that also the I mean everybody says I mean I'm sure you know all the time you hear like okay these software that were sort of like very much given as a total package I guess seems very exciting at first but then Microsoft does this now there's ads in my operating system uh you know we all have to use like not we all have to but sort of uh I I mean, with with things like Microsoft, right, it's like in a lot of academic or business settings, it's like here you go. Here's the package. Here's what you're going to use the whole office suite or something like that. And then sometimes uh I mean, I personally found those ones a bit like uh you're given everything at once and it's like where do I begin? Of course, you can use it for simple things like basically it's just like you use this big uh Microsoft thing like notepad or like a a or table. But um and I mean in general I was like where do I even enter in this on a software level? It's like uh I can't go in and edit like you know Microsoft Excel to make something uh and e even the open source um I'm I'm sure you know like when you're coming and you just know like the basic things like you know how does iteration work, how does recursion work, uh like what are variables like stuff like that. It's like okay uh how do I even like start entering into making software and even the open source can sometimes feel a bit like this is already like a a p a structure a pyramid a big building that has been built am I going to come and put a little brick on this like it feels a bit whatever so I found I think just I didn't even think about all this necessarily consciously but I think I felt like because of that it's like no I have to start with something myself that it's like I can understand from the ground up. I mean not not necessarily the ground up like not necessarily from like the OS like or bits and bites level to OS or whatever but at least from like you know a source file to this is the program. >> Um that's what I needed to do myself, right? >> Um and that's I guess that actually does relate to some of the topics that I guess I sent you today. And I think maybe even you can find it relatable with uh I saw your video like efficiency and basic powers or some about uh I don't really explicitly remember what the title was but I think it's maybe more similar to like impostor syndrome and then this kind of stuff. Um I think it's very relevant for many people today because when you think about it in history um I mean I'm very much generalizing but often what what people do in a sort of professional sense um in the past is more like they are given that directly from the people that directly contribute to their economic like way of life I guess so to speak like you were taught the traditional method to do your professional career right but nowadays in both professional and even non-professional kind of like uh any sort of thing where it is either an economic field and also building a body of knowledge or a structure itself sometimes now we enter and it's like there's this thing out there and it's like the building has already been built and it's like sort of I guess your responsibility almost to how am I going to uh contribute to this or or how does it even work can be way more daunting already than um that sort of comparison to uh I guess uh traditional modes of production or even uh >> because it is a function of complexity really Like the more complex something gets, the greater the level of abstraction that has to go into managing it. >> And of course, the more abstract something is, the more you need to understand in order to deal with it as a single person. So what usually happens is you don't think about the other abstractions. You just think about your specific domain >> and you don't try to understand the whole thing how it works. you only understand the little bit you do and then you're like okay the other levels are for the other people to deal with >> because uh if you try to understand everything from the ground up it's so complex that basically you cannot do it >> yeah you never get started and that's kind of the issue but I think that maybe this is a little more related to our topics um of course in some things it's obvious but in sometimes it's Sometimes it is a little bit necessary for maybe not you but for someone else to know like because you are saying I'm going to become a piece in this puzzle but if you can't even see the puzzle at all you don't know where to fit [laughter] is almost that kind of idea and I think that uh with sometimes this is definitely the case. Uh there is um um like for example I think like even though I have enjoyed sort of the exercise of start from the ground up do whatever in general it is sort of a not a waste of time but less efficient and also less maintainable I guess if we use a code example if I am just rewriting uh the standard library functions or or very equivalent things right so it is a little bit like um I mean I guess this is or a different but related debate of uh how much time do you spend sort of uh understanding and then how much time do you do just getting in on hands-on stuff and of course that's kind of a balance for different people and also uh depending on the domain and also depending on uh the situation right >> um but I think that um in general we are um do you want to move on to like uh kind of bridge into the other topics that I I uh >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But just mentioned just because I think this is interesting and then it connects to what you told me about the other topics you want to cover. >> But I think uh here ultimately you cannot just reinvent everything because if you think about it you start on every topic let's say you start on the basics of programming. Well, if you really want to go to the basics, eventually you have to go outside programming and talk about logic and talk [laughter] about mathematics and talk about and eventually you [clears throat] will be rediscovering what the first human ever discovered. So of course you [clears throat] have to start somewhere eventually >> and I think the way it works in practice is that usually we start with something as a given which is like you know take this don't ask how it works just work from this point onwards and then the kind of person who is really interested into understanding things from first principles who wants to go in depth will come back and be like okay now let me understand what is happening happening here and then they will go deeper into that. But [clears throat] this of course what you are now saying is kind of the confusion slashstress inducing situation uh we face I mean many of us face where it's like okay what do I do in life where do I belong how am I supposed to contribute to this massive structure because it's something I don't even comprehend I cannot even fathom it >> so what do I do and You mentioned uh these topics in the message you sent me where it's like okay how is it in terms of uh life opportunities and work outlook uh what can we make of um tendencies for escapism through storytelling what is good escapism what is the bad side of it that sort of thing so I think it ties into that so yeah please tell me a little bit more about those topics >> oh yeah So I think while I'm interested in a lot of these topics, I'm not an expert like in either like economics obviously cuz these cover economics uh even like some of the philosophical issues. I'm not an expert on what every sort of philosopher said. Um I guess related to what you said I think I think it was uh Hegel he said like if you ask any question if you actually want the answer to this question if you expand the scope either this way you will uh horizontally so sort of like uh I asked a specific question about ladybugs maybe and then it's like why are ladybugs there and I guess I [clears throat] think it was any why question and I expand the scope horizontally so Why is life or why is uh these bugs there? Why is animals there? Why is life there? Eventually I think those cover um you can do or that horizontal level you cover every topic of the natural science if you actually want the answer to the question. And then I think the vertical level he says which I think is a little more debatable is all the topics in philosophy. I'm sure somebody else like you probably know some Greeks said something similar like way before but um maybe >> but it is kind of kind of a a true um but I think it's even more like less philosophical than this. I think people can cope with the fact they don't know everything. Like that's always been true. Um, but I think as you said, it's almost more like now with how like connected everything is, it's almost like sometimes it feels like you are one person playing a race against the other 7 billion a little bit, right? It's like, oh, okay, I want to uh do this, but then somebody has already covered that uh pothole or even I don't even know somebody has. and then like um a little bit um this and I think it comes in my eyes it's a little bit of a generalization or a big generalization but in actual life I think there's really two questions and then from those spawn a lot of other questions uh it's like a like how do we survive and then b it's like how do we get what we want like how do we uh Oh, and then these questions are is like okay who one of the questions that comes after that is like who is the Wii. So, right. So this is like kind of uh very much like super individualism versus you can it can expand to oh no we as one universal humanity right uh like and then you know if you think the like you think maybe the super individualist people might be like the we is I how do I get what I want how do I survive is the only question that matters right and then other people uh disagree with this um and then within these questions if we are going to answer like well I think it is a a we really then it's like then maybe it's like how do we help other people survive how do we help other people get what we want is it is it not good if somebody else getting what they want prevents the rest of the people from getting what they want um or or surviving even um and yeah I think these are the main questions so that's why I thought because the second one is I think In general, it is less important than the first. How do we survive? Because the second one is contingent on the first one obviously. >> Uh but it is still the second biggest question. So then >> and then I think the biggest question from that >> sorry just say it could be 8.1 8.2 or whatever like it could be the first question but >> like how do we get what we want to survive? Like it could be that. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um I mean I think like also in a way uh history has kind of been the progression of focusing on the first question to focusing on the second question, right? Like the the history of like economic uh production and things like this. Um but [clears throat] since that second question is at least the at least I think the second most important question of life I think the most important sub question of this question is like sort of ideas of like what should we want is it okay to want everything is it okay to even make nor like like uh is it okay to even say that we should want things or is it just any want equal right like um this is kind of like ethics Right. >> Um and I think um it's like even if we say oh okay no these questions are just not important really people are actually they are still like almost asking the questions by just their actions like that they're negotiating the questions in real life. So I say it's a little better that we at least uh think about it out loud than just uh negotiate in real life and there can be bad consequence and there has been bad consequences. So um yeah to me that is kind of the first thing and then uh the storytelling for me is more this is a little bit more separate and more connected of yeah I have my own writing so then I think about like uh I guess the philosophy of storytelling right >> I guess >> but uh the storytelling here is connected to these questions and if so how because I'm interested to see the connection here. These questions I I agree that they are central like if we don't answer these questions like what are we doing kind of and of course these questions are packed with many other questions which analyze or explain or specialize the general question. Uh so of course like how do we survive? What is we? But then of course how do we distribute resources? what does it mean to coordinate the distribution of resources and so on so forth. So of course there are many more specific questions but specifically with storytelling and with what we said earlier. >> Mhm. Do you think that the difficulty of answering such broad questions is uh what eventually creates a tendency to think about something else entirely like uh in the form of storytelling or through storytelling to answer these questions like imagine a an alternative like a fictional world where you can uh start things from the ground up to connect it to what you were telling me earlier and there figure out the problems like what do you think is the connection there? >> Yes, definitely. I think that story like we see like dystopian stories are basically saying like for example you might think you want this but you definitely don't want this because this is right uh that's a very simple example. um like he like the dystopian writer is basically saying in real time right now people are doing actions that say they want this thing but I think you don't want it like basically right um I think about early storytelling which I think has what I said the three main uh I guess points of storytelling in uh the email which is uh there's a conflict ICT um and escapism and then there is like a and escapism like a fantasy basically and then there is uh like lessons like the the theme I think is you always like can be actually reduced to a lesson really. So it and I think like all the early stories you remember have all all of these three. Um and then um but there is you can kind of choose one over the other. And I think even though it's rare, there is almost pure forms where a story is purely basically one of the three. Um, and I think that the and I think it's rare that there's people that enjoy just one of the three, but it is it does happen sometimes. Um, I know my girlfriend got me to watch a movie and uh, I think she is rare in that she is someone that she doesn't care about conflict in the storytelling. Uh the movie had almost no conflict which is very very rare actually. It's more of a um slice of life. So >> sorry let me ask you here just to be clear. What do we mean by conflict in this case? Because of course conflict you can define it as well violent clashes. That's one type of conflict but conflict could also be like a difference of opinion. So there is tension and there are maybe conflicting priorities, conflicting interest but not necessarily brute force the use of force. >> Oh yeah. So in storytelling we really just define conflict as there is like uh at least two individuals like the protagonist and the antagonist and they have opposite goals. >> So these goals can be nonviolent totally. Um but that causes a conflict of sorts. Um but and it's very rare a story has no conflict. Like I think it's very difficult but some of these ones I think have a minimum amount at least of conflict. And um I think conflict is like the fundamental. Um at least I think of the ones they if you want to like learn how to write a good story basically the main one they say is conflict is the essential one actually. >> Mhm. Um but this is the actual one that is I mean they're all all talked about the theme is also very much and now I think even fantasy escapist elements are very much talked about but this is the one that is like very much like the core both recognizes analytically when you analyze storytelling a motif and then also like told to be like this is the main technical thing to focus on where like what is the conflict in the scene, what is the conflict in the story, how does the conflict develop, how does it change is almost like the main analytical lens that people that write a bit more I guess consciously because I know like you know I think there's people you can tell a great story without think sort of dissecting it right but at least the people that write a bit more consciously conflict is the first lens used to be like what um and uh I think that the conflict lens is because you know like this is almost a fundamental facet of reality, right? Uh we recognize that on every level. It doesn't mean we all hate each other but there is differing goals because people do want differing things or even on the survival level right the resources are consumed. So this is a little bit um whatever and I guess um I guess this kind of idea this uh support is in line with some philosophies and not with other philosophies actually like this is a little bit more maybe like a Marxist kind of uh idea. >> You mean conflict? >> It's not necess Yeah. It's not necessarily a a class whatever right. But that's kind of a an an an easy an easy one. But it's not necessarily that you become like a like a mechavilian or something, right? Um sometimes by recognizing that fundamentally by having different goals there's conflict. It's like then the question might become so do we want a goal a world where we try to align our goals the most and upfrontly be like okay you know I might have all these goals but I'm going to put one of these aside because you and I here have the same one right um and I mean like I mean even yeah using that example I think like uh Marx is sometimes misread where it's like oh because it's conflict view of the world that that means like it's sort of that that is also like a normative kind of like a prescription right but it's really supposed to be like we actually want to kind of minimize the conflict right like to to end it I mean you know I'm not necessarily saying like oh um I'm fully on Marxist side but I just mean that um you don't have to become like a and we should maximize the conflict just because it is it exists in reality No, no, it's descriptive, not prescriptive. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. And I think but that is an interesting element actually that I one of the reasons I chose that that as one of the topics is sometimes I do think um and it kind of I guess it doesn't like hurt me but it kind of like makes me question as a storyteller. Sometimes I do think that because good storytelling is very conflict heavy and even you see um I know people watch uh soap operas and sometimes they are just like endless drummed up conflict and it's like um I know that one soap opera that I know someone watches uh someone I know watches it's like it started where it's very much like supposed to show like these are like the middle lowerass people in their lives and it had like a decent amount of conflict to make a show go good but because they have to make it so often like they have every an episode almost every day. Now it's like sort of even in the conflict things have become sort of uh totally uh stereotyped. So it's like the conflict are so overblown and stuff like that. But I think that the point was not about like, oh, this soap opera has gotten way worse or even on stories, but maybe too much viewing of this kind of stuff can actually make people like kind of more conflicting in their real lives. That is a question actually to be had. I think that we have actually seen in recent times especially that people have been like people actually do even change their ideas and stuff based on like the stories right and there's some people that say like oh this is so bad um like people are too easily influenced and of of course maybe that is true but I would say that storytelling since like we know like Gilgamesh and things like this like at least since that point but probably before that it has been like uh have an effect on um how people view the world right >> and I see that yeah and I see that more escapist ones they influence the way that people like even these three fundamental like you can't really like say like a story is just purely like you can't understand a story from me just saying like it has so much conflict. It has so like you still really don't know what is that story like but even I think still in these three kind of fundamental bars you can kind of move it does very much I think affect people even their worldview um and like how people go about living life right um >> um especially people that are obviously more like they they uh engage with more stories I guess um >> yeah yeah of course the thing is that uh Stories will influence you. I think in the same way that all stimuli influence you. So of course if you are exposed to stories too much you will have more likely heavier influence from stories than from everyday experiences. And of course at some level everyday experiences are probably internally formulated as a story. Again it's some kind of narrative. There is like >> exactly >> beginning, middle and end. And maybe depending on how you see it, you are kind of the protagonist. Not because you are the center of the play, but because the play unfolds through your eyes. Uhhuh. And I guess maybe this is why I was encouraged to um choose this as one of the topics for discussing with you because actually I mean one kind of internal conflict I had a bit I guess was that I see that the process of narrativization makes people can make people a little uncontent and actually one of the philosophers that I really like is Epicurus Uh I feel like that I am kind of a very naturally kind of epicurian person. Um I I have like sort of maybe like wrestled with people a bit who uh either have very much like uh what's that word? um aesthetic views of life and then on the other end very like kind of indulgent kind of maybe even uh sadistic not like as in their but in the original form of do you know the philosopher Marque sad he said like pleasure is the point of life and almost a sort of aggressive pleasure right so >> um but I've seen this kind of dichotomy and that's like I've always been Oh, you know, I can admit that I like the simple pleasure of a sandwich, but it doesn't have to go much farther than that. It's like that is the best where it's like you kind of have a little and then it can quickly return to baseline. Your your life doesn't get disrupted by the pursuit of pleasure and it doesn't turn quickly into pain really. But I feel like because of some ideas that we've had, this simple conception can't even be said. M >> um it's like you have to sort of it's like this other binary gets set up where it's like aeticism or uh like a very aggressive pursuit of pleasure. And it's like if we have and now we do live in that time of abundance way more than epicuris time way more. >> For sure. For sure. >> It's like but I it's for me it's very simple. It's like if I can go to the market and en like to use epic here's example enjoy a piece of cheese why would I not why not I mean I don't mean that you should go and buy cheese or whatever I just mean like you know why not enjoy the thing that you enjoy but on a very reasonable level and for me it's always been like this but I actually saw that it sometimes is the narrativization element that prevents people from doing this and then I was like well I'm a writer and my stories are they aren't like a simple guy goes gets a piece of cheese like uh there have been sto like people have attempted to do stories like this and it's not very successful and I think for a good reason uh but is it like that we should I have even thought even though I love storytelling to a certain point is the whole project of it like bad and we should really be like let's get rid of the story so then we can just like enjoy just kind of our simple lives because if they prevent us from that but it is simple life is actually the the easiest and least destructive thing to achieve in material reality then maybe stories are even the bad guy. I mean this sounds ridiculous but you can see honestly the logic and I've just seen how it's like um you know it's as simple as somebody uh but there's another like even this is one conception and then there's another even conception on top of this where one of the examples that I think is actually seems identical to this but in some ways is opposite is um if you know around you know, the the biggest movie of all time. I don't I don't know if it's the biggest anymore, but biggest grossing, you know, like Avatar. >> I've heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. So, I >> Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to see it. >> I watched the some parts of it. Yeah. But I don't watch the whole thing. >> Yeah. It's not that important, but the point is it was kind of a a a movie where it's like this beautiful jungle planet, right? And the the theme of the movie is about like very much like I think a very normal theme nowadays where it's like kind of I guess like an idea similar to American imperialism comes and takes all their resources and burns everything and uh but it wasn't even that. It was um when that movie came out when people saw it in theaters it was very much many people came out back into real life and was like I'm so depressed. Um, and usually it's attributed to the the the scenery was so beautiful and now we come back into our concrete jungle or like kind of wall everything is a big mall kind of thing. But this one, it seems analogous to how like the the storytelling uh makes us discontent with our lives, but it's kind of a different thing where it's just purely like we have changed our environment so much and then maybe that sort of natural environment is better for our biological senses or whatever. >> Um Just to say on this, >> it's kind of it's kind of complicated. >> Just to say on this, I think narratives can of course be negative in the sense that we want to fulfill the narrative. So if you have a narrative [clears throat] of your own life, then you are anticipating your actions and they're like, well, what would the character in the story do for it to make sense for that character, right? So instead of acting in a manner that is consistent with how you feel right now, which of course might contradict how you felt before, you are acting out as a character in a role- playinging game. So you are gifying your experience and of course now you have to become somebody who you thought is good for whatever reason to be. >> But of course you develop that thought in a vacuum. It's not in vivo. It was in vitro. It was uh in a thought experiment that you came up with that role. But in practice that role may not be able to be enacted. That's the one thing. The other thing about avatar because that's um the other side of it which of course stories can also effectively place a mirror uh opposite us and in juxaposition we can find that well something is wrong here. And we are like okay look at this pristine world of the avatar and then look at the kind of world we have where our cities effectively deny deny us our sky and of course it's happening that I am outside now doing this and of course if you are in a city context you don't see the sky literally like you don't know when is the full moon for example so basic stuff like that and then when you compare and contrast that to what you would in let's say the avatar you are dejected and you're like what am I even doing here? What is happening? >> Yeah. Yeah. So I thought that was I thought that was definitely interesting because in general I always come back to like if you can't be content why not be right. So like if you can um but at the same time with that other example I thought that that was a bit different because I thought and with some other examples that are shown by storytelling uh and dystopic stories and stuff like that where it's like the important thing there though is that it's not just like um I am I could be content now or I am content now and then the story disrupts my contentedness. It's that the story shows that you know as a group we are moving into a place where everybody is going to be not content. is kind of >> that was one kind of different element like cuz I thought like if you kind of take it to extreme and then there's the whole like you know all the jungles are removed and things like this it's like yes this obviously is not good everyone and there is studies that um uh the suicide rate goes up when infrastructure looks a certain way when there's less sunshine stuff like this so it does have a very real effect So, but it's always this difficult negotiation where um the other end of only the fantasy is going to suffice for the individual is not I think that is a destructive or or I think a little bit when people fully believe like the the process where people are allowed to fully believe the narrative is kind of and then like the sort of other factors in materiality get eliminated. Um, and I think this is pretty obvious to people that um like look out into the world and uh we see that certain narratives definitely like not story ones necessarily. I think that's a little less obvious, but story like ones are used to uh get people to look away from like u I think Orwell said like they the first thing is try not to trust the information from your own senses basically, right? >> Mhm. >> Um >> yeah. Yeah. >> I'm not saying I'm not referencing like some conspiracy theory here. I'm saying like in the very obvious ways. Um, >> no, no, of course. And an obvious way for that would be to have a narrative about what it means to be uh qualified. A narrative of what it means to be happy, a narrative of what it means to be um somebody who is a high achiever. What does it mean to achieve something? Of [clears throat] course, all these come with social expectations and there is underpinnings to them that are normative and you ought to do it in a certain way and if you do it in another way maybe it doesn't get the recognition it would otherwise get. So of course it's not just you doing the deed. It's also you doing the deed in a manner that is appropriate for well the script which is the social expectations and how you as a player conform with that role effectively. So that would also be a narrative in that case. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's like I think this narrative capacity is actually one of the at least from what we know uh the fundamental things that make humans different from the rest of animals. I mean may maybe maybe not maybe maybe the dolphins are also telling themselves stories or whatever but and definitely one of the movers of uh human life and history um is that we can make other people believe in narratives basically. Um, and it really is like with the general like with this instinct and then also the general social instinct is it like it's like is this really like a force for good or not is a actually a big question I think um because in this >> yeah it like with the social instinct it's like it actually is at the end of the day the same instinct that makes people like polite and stuff like that. And uh and the same one that made people burn witches in like uh the 1700s or whatever, right? Like uh and this is kind of the the the the complicated aspect of it. Um and and there is like also conflict once again embedded in this uh this kind of uh idea like that some people want to promote certain values and then some people want to promote opposite ones and some people are against sort of the maybe more authoritarian promotions of values altogether. Mhm. >> Um >> Mhm. >> Anyway, I think maybe we're going to bit too general. Do you want to try to maybe narrow in? >> One thing about this though about conflict because you might say, you know what, I have good intentions. I want to eliminate conflict in the world. And of course, you know the song from Jen John Lennon, imagine all the people and basically there is no property, there is no religion, blah blah blah. Therefore, there is nothing to fight for, right? And of course, we just love each other. Um, if you think about this for a second, for this to work, we also have to undo individuality. It's not just a matter of undoing institutions such as property or religion. And there is this Greek myth to connect it back to stories. Of course, it's all stories. There is this Greek myth of prostesis. And maybe you have heard of the Proian bed. So Prois is somebody who is a really capable craftsman and he has this John Lenon view of the world where it's like well we should all be one size we should all be the same. And of course you can say well if we are all the same I just need to make one type of clothing right? If we are all the same I just need to prepare one dish for everybody to be happy and so on. Like there are so many benefits. We don't have to fight of hey you didn't put enough salt in my food or whatever right we won't have to argue for anything. It will be great. So what prostesis is doing to enact his master plan of everybody should be equal everybody should be the same and we are all happy. He has this bed and he will take people and force them onto the bed. If they are uh longer than uh the proportion of than the size of the bed, he will chop off the excess parts so that they fit in onto the bed. Right? If they are smaller than the bed, he will stretch out their limbs so that they fit exactly the bed. And basically the moral of the story is that of course Prois has a good goal in mind. Imagine all the people kind of thing. But for him to actually realize that goal, he has to mutilate and torture people because people earning to the sorry owning to their individuality will not fit onto the bed so neatly. >> So of course in practice to eliminate conflict you have to do it via conflict and it will be of the most totalitarian sort. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. I definitely uh um agree with that. Um and I think that this is why I think uh the analyzing desire is actually an important issue because of course we we at the same time while we understand um we cannot eliminate all conflict we still of course want to improve the world I guess and um I think the first question is this kind general like you know who has the right to go about and sort of uh by improving the world in anyone's eyes even if it is almost everyone agrees it's like you have to conflict with others you have to change some people's values you have to whatever um and it's like now now I think it's very obvious to us in a different way And sorry it's just like using it all the time. It's like because these general thing that they lay out all these sort of different ideas and then they come together but when it's obvious to us that many of our desires is not like we came about this um ourselves through experience by ourselves individually making kind of conscious decisions. Now the question is is that even possible? Is it even really possible that I kind of just say, "Oh, you know what? I just do love the cheese." And it's I want the cheese because I had the cheese before. I smelled it and now I want it. For I think animals, it's really easy to say, "Oh, the the bee wants the honey because he just has like been instinctually qualified to want the honey." But for us, it's not that is not the case, I don't think. Um, and it's obvious now that there's all the time people that want things because somebody else made them want it and not even somebody they know, right? Like some advertising firm thousands of miles away said, "We want people to want this, so you're going to want this." And then eventually they do. Um, is like the thing. Um, and there's even more, I think, malicious forms of this. I think actually advertising is is malicious because of the scale but actually not necessarily that malicious like per instance of this happening. Um but like if we say like okay we we know that you know we didn't come to these desires like by ourselves advertising made us do it. It's like you can how far does that go? Did any of your desires really come from yourself? Um, not to muddy the waters like purposefully, but um, and I don't think you can say, "Oh, yeah, no, like all of our desires are socially constructed because we're just born into born into the world." Like, we didn't choose the world. We're just born into the world. So therefore, they're all constructed. So therefore, the advertiser making you want something is exactly the same as me hungering for a piece of cheese and then wanting it, right? Um, but it's like what what exactly are the desires? And I do have an opinion. It's not just like a what if. Um, what are the desires? That is like what makes a desire worth pursuing and what makes it worth rejecting is ultimately the question. Mhm. >> And I think that for me, um, I'm still working out the ideas, but for me, there are structures of certain desires that make them more likely to be to more likely to be worth pursuing. And for me, one of them is, and I think here's me where Epicurus might be a little straw man that he would be against this, but for me, one of them is that it is um and I think maybe you would resonate with this. It is something that can be inhabited as a mode. So I think that many times why another reason why we kind of think that products that are advertised is not a true form of desire or at least one worth pursuing is because I mean I know there's some people that they collected 10,000 Snoopies or something like that. But in general it's not a sustainable thing that you can enter into the mode of actually keep pursuing desire. We see it's not sustainable because you know like the economy and the planet cannot keep up with fulfilling the desires of pure consumerism right you know if everybody wants 10 cars this cannot happen right uh and then you can only really if your actual desire is fulfilled by buying the car this is why I think it's actually different like if if your desire is to really have the car and enjoy it in like for hours and hours and hours. I actually see that as different than the person that just wants to buy just wants to buy the car and and there are people that they just want to buy the car. They don't want they have a their desire is not really to take the car for a drive every weekend and even if nobody is around they're going to drive the car. >> I think this is a minority compared to people that want to just buy the car. But for me, buying the car like is that is not a mode you can kind of go back into, right? And it's unsustainable really. It does come down to almost a leg you can even kind [clears throat] of reduce it to a logistical mechanics. >> Which I think is useful to do actually because if you frame any question such as this along normative lines. So you say well is it good or not? And however you go about answering it, I think fundamentally your answer is correct or incorrect relative to the framework you are using. So if you are viewing it from the perspective of Epicurus, you reach one answer which is the correct answer. If you are viewing it from the anti-epiquous perspective, you reach another answer. That sort of thing. Whereas I think you mentioned the word which is key here, unsustainable. And you also mentioned another word which I think is very relevant the economy like you said the 10 cars and of course that's the economy cannot handle that and I think here we have a mechanism which is inherent to nature actually economy is not really a human invention economy exists everywhere in the universe everywhere and fundamentally it's not a matter of what I think it's a matter of what can the world take. So, it's really that like if I can actually buy 10 cars and if just buying the cars and then selling them is what gives me excitement or whatever and if that is um something that the world can take meaning that I can keep doing it and everybody can keep doing it then of course in a sense there is nothing to discuss here from a normative perspective it's something that can It's something that well nature allows it to happen. God allows it to happen if you want to put it in those terms. >> And whatever we say, we say it relative to fundamentally a narrative that we have, a vantage point that we have, a school of thought that we have. But if you forget about the school of thought and just think in terms of mechanics in terms of how resources are distributed through transactions then you see okay for as long as that kind of transaction works there is nothing to say about it. What we can say and what the dystopic storytellers are doing is well imagine this like picture this this reality projected into the future. Now picture this which I think now is the part of human creativity that allows us to foresee an outcome and not just focus on the mechanics and then to say okay given these mechanics here is the projection of how things will look like and do we like that yes or no? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think that like um sorry um yeah, it does come down to um like things being a material reality and that can be analyzed uh economically or mechanically. And I think that that but that is sort of a um maybe a a common misunderstanding is that I mean maybe throughout the history of philosophy we've kind of like [laughter] sort of there's been a separation of like materialists and idealists right and I think this does actually just like not just trickle down but you know people that are not necessarily professional philosophers also have similar ideas right and then we kind of separate like what is whatever and then maybe math is something easy to say okay it's not really in physical reality even though we can use it to do calculations about physical reality >> but I mean at least me personally I'm more lying on the side of materialist and I think like but that doesn't mean that I think that all the things that is normally thought of as more abstract or ideal idealism like that they don't exist are not useful. I think that they're included in material reality. So I think that the the the you know the projection of the dystopian writer which is an idea really um and is not happening right now at least or sometimes at least uh but this is still I see this in materiality and can be analyzed logistically even when where the story gets distributed who is it affecting this kind of thing. Um and with with the ideas of sustainability though I and how you said that um you can analyze these things logistically and then sort of normativity which kind of implies ethics is kind of not really in the picture. I do think a little bit uh you can say that in the same sense that whether you are sort of I guess a moral realist or moral anti-realist they say I mean I hate to bring up these kind of like very like academic philosophy terms but either way you can say the thing that we say is in the realm of ethics that still exists in material reality. Whether you think that these norms can be said objectively, subjectively, whatever, it's still like I think anybody with common sense can say, okay, there are certain things that we kind of say are in the realm of ethics. And that I think has a material reason actually. Um oftentimes it's not necessarily the most accurate, but even when people go and are like, oh, you know, um antiquated morals like >> [clears throat] >> uh I know in the Hebrew Bible it's like no eating shellfish and things like that. It's like these often came about for a material reason because eating shellfish or pork was way harder to cook and then it makes everyone sick and then uh whatever. And then even the ones that seem more abstract more the often and I'm not saying that they're justified and some of them are very misguided and some of them should not be applied in the contemporary context is not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is that what we think of as ethics is meant to interact with logistical, mechanical, material reality. It's meant to manage and interact with that. And if that conception has been lost, it is because things have become overabstracted in a sense or like we have kind of like got lost in sort of the philosophical weeds and think that this is a totally like separate question almost like like doing a math problem and just totally unrelated from reality. And then actually even math problems um as science develops the math problems that were once purely mathematical become applicable to reality. So I think in the same way it can work like this. Um so in that sense I think that in the way we speak about ethics there is a case that it is unethical to promote to basically promote in material reality desires that are very unsustainable. So in a sense you can't even say that advertising as it works now is almost unethical I think because you know it's like what is it doing mechanically it's saying to people who might have been content otherwise you should have these desires which are unsustainable and then they're going to go out and do it it's going to become more unsustainable logistically it means that other people cannot a fulfill desires that are more sustainable and those other people that were going to perhaps have desires that are more sustainable and really be fulfilled by them. Yes. Too. Uh do not >> and in a way this is both mechanical and logistical and also yes like in the way we say of it ethical. >> So I think that I've always been a little bit um even though I sometimes agree with the I more sort of academic philosophy but the hume you cannot derive an ugh from an is. I think that's also kind of the idea you were speaking of with the uh the John Lennon and then also yeah why we kind of want to separate like make clear the descriptive and the normative um but in a way um there is almost a right thing to do based on the material reality and I think that ethics has always been connected to this I think that's why it's sort of there is this bridge that >> um and it's only when it's like we get into these like very abstract like you know like categorical imperative kind of ideas that then you have to come in and say you can't get an off from it is like this kind of stuff like if we only do things in an app priori kind of >> sense right >> sure though for example to use the example of the advertiser here and of course me I agree with you I don't like advertising of course I don't do clickbait or any of that for example, but for the sake of the discussion because of course this is really fun. Let's say that advertising is bad. Okay, let's take that at face value. It's immoral, unethical, you're a terrible person if you are an advertiser. Let's take that. [laughter] Okay, >> I don't mean we should punish them right like >> for the sake of the discussion. Okay, so here is our starting position. Why now if we want to do the right thing, why should we uh punish advertisers when we consider that for the advertiser to have a job, there are people who fall for it? So if we want to fix the world, why don't we fix those people, >> right? So if the if you think of the advertiser in this case as some kind of a virus why not develop antibodies instead of saying oh bad virus you see what I'm trying to say so even if we grant that something is bad it still doesn't give us the answer as to what should we do about it because of course on the one hand we could say okay let's banish advertising from history advertising [laughter] Okay. On the other hand, we could say, okay, let it be. But you, dear friend, be mindful of the tricks that advertisers will do. >> Uh-huh. No, I I definitely think um um that understanding >> this is of course for the sake of the argument. I'm not saying that advertising is always bad. Let's you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't even think advertising like even in the way we think of it is always bad. I think that >> for sure >> um like like there needs to be uh or maybe not needs but it it might be uh it might be very efficient for there to be for there to be an effective way for people to like people actually don't know what exactly they want. They have a very vague conception of what they want. Uh maybe it's like um you know I have just uh I need something to fix something but I'm not a mechanic but I kind of want to fix it myself cuz I think I can. Okay, I got to look for some product but I don't know. And you know it's very useful and this is like sort of was originally thought as the realm of advertising, right? I don't think all advertisers are bad should be locked up or even they're all unethical people or whatever. Um but just from this understanding I think we can say that my point was that what is ethical is actually directly tied to what is materially sustainable for fulfilling those two questions in that we talked about to help people survive and then get what we want and then the first question of that choosing what we want and advertising is directly related to that >> essential second question which connects to those original two questions >> or the third question which connects to the original two questions and we can then say okay some of the things that we are doing is uh not making those not giving good answers to those questions I guess >> or giving answers that can never be really actually answered in reality I guess um and with that I think that yeah when you actually answer uh the question. I'm not saying it's an absolute answer or whatever, but um from all sides you can say okay in in what I do as a sort of I guess producer of sorts. So that might be the advertiser. Okay, maybe uh there's a case I mean not not that they should all quit their jobs right away, but like like there's a a case that what am I doing is not really at least even even I think there is a use of even if you are like people really hate hypocrisy now and of course I think it's generally bad to be like a liar hypocrite kind of thing but I don't think it's bad if somebody for example you know they honestly can't really leave an advertising job or something, but maybe they agree with what I'm saying and are like, I can understand that advertising does have a a negative effect in this way and I'm still going to do it. And I don't think that makes you a hypocrite. I think that makes you understand multiple things that a like the economy is set up in this way where I cannot just leave my job. Yes, that's fair. And then B though I correctly understand it instead of because I think otherwise you are caught in a scenario where every time the because the information comes you have to look away because you are trying to fool yourself >> and this is what I was working towards with the previous uh point which is fundamentally what we are asking is to protect people from themselves because if you say okay um we shouldn't be doing this thing but If it happens, somebody will be fooled by it or be led astray or be led to their own calamity or whatever. Fundamentally, we have a a more uh pressing issue here to consider, which is that some people will misuse their capacity to act freely or what we consider acting freely anyway, which is to act in a manner that is self-distracting. And of course we can think of self-destructive rather and of course we can think of it very clearly in the form of a baby like the baby you have to protect it you put it in an environment that is a controlled environment because if you leave the baby to its own devices it will likely harm itself but then you know that you are taking away some of its potential for freedom but you do it for a good reason. And then of course we come here to this point which is like well uh should uh we consider that as well. So it's not just look at the side of what the bad influences are, but also look at the side of the individual who now gets affected by those influences. And can you empower this individual through education maybe or through other role models or whatever to be a a less prone version of themselves, less prone to this kind of self-destructive propensities? Mhm. Yeah, I definitely think that's true. And actually, um, kind of fittingly, I guess that like like babies was kind of the next avenue I was going to go into. I think here maybe we're going to get like, um, yeah, I'll be up front. This is more like kind of hard opinions of like what I kind of uh think um that's more directly connected to specific things. Um I think that the there is coming to it is this sort of some uh some of these facets have kind of riveted up enough where it is almost the question becomes yes we want to maybe like the idea of like teach a man to fish and he will uh you know be fed for his lifetime basically right rather than give him a fish kind of idea. Um it is coming to a point where it's like there is so so many forces where the teaching of the man to fish becomes like that itself is the what is threatened actually >> and to use the example of the babies right I think that in a sense it is a it is a logistical issue where it's like for many people um even if they are hungry to be taught like the like wisdom or whatever you want to say. Um there is so many forces battling them and on a logistical level they are basically doomed. So to use the example of the babies actually um there's now like uh like I guess there are sort of TV shows made for babies and then these are not necessarily written like how a storyteller writes a TV show for babies in the past right um I don't think that's necessarily bad but they are instead made by hundreds of engineers some of them are psychological engine and then some of them are like more technological but they're basically like they're actually rigorous scientists like and engineers. Yeah. But their the task of their science is to make the television shows for the babies as addictive as possible. [laughter] And it's like we can see in this example it's like clear anybody who says oh but [laughter] the baby is learning wisdom against us is a fool. like you wouldn't even take this person seriously. And I think that we have to have the humility to be like um we have like I I'm even sometimes uh lean towards like absolute free will like at least philosophically sometimes but at the same time I acknowledge that one individual cannot play against 10,000 other individuals and come out on top. the baby in this scenario is going to be whatever and I think sometimes even though it might seem a bit you have to humble yourself in some scenarios it's like you are a baby in the face of and I think like we see this reflected in reality it's like people especially because in that scenario right the baby is in a sense almost almost someone's forced to uh watch the television show like because the parent has to do a job and you know right um the parent doesn't necessarily know that there's all the engineers behind that to make the baby show as addictive as possible but it still is what what is happening the baby you can't say like can even necessarily there's that it prevents them from learning in this scenario right learning that like right And it's almost sort of like I see that if similar structures are made where it's like that people have to engage in um uh like the equivalent of the addictive television show basically right >> um whether they want to or not. And then by having to engage with that it is that is made to be as like engineered by like so many other people and it's really difficult to play against that and then like the scenario becomes where it's like um because also a lot of this is informational right and it's like the overloading of information some people they can't even like learn to fish I guess I mean there's a lot of desperate analogy and kind of maybe it's falling apart but >> no it's not falling apart. I think that >> I think that that is kind of then for everybody both individuals and groups it's like the question comes to ask how do we make it so then it is an environment that is conducive to teaching a man to fish basically yeah >> is that even I don't even conducive I think sometimes now it's where it's possible is even the question >> and um this is the interesting part and why of Of course, I agree with the general idea you said earlier like the material realities will of course inform our theories. However, it's not uh one uh answer. It's like one material reality does not give one answer because of course you can think outside the box. In this case of the baby, for example, you may say, okay, how do we make sure that the baby is an environment where it is not exposed to these predators? Because that's what fundamentally they do, right? They prey on the baby's inability to cope with this manipulation tactic. So how do we do that? One way would be okay, let's legislate against it, for example. That's what people in my previous career would think about. It's like, okay, we are politicians, that's what we do. Let's legislate. But I'm like, okay, why not think of an alternative? Why is the baby even glued to the TV all day? Why isn't there a grandparent around, for example? Why aren't there cousins around? Why isn't there uh a football pitch for them to go play some football, for example? Like, why aren't there alternatives to the television? Why is a parent forced to work all day of course and delegate the upbringing of the child to effectively strangers whether it is the TV or uh nannies or whatever right um so you can what I'm basically saying I'm not trying to answer but what I'm basically saying is of course we can think of it in terms of a good and a bad kind of actor and let's try to mitigate the bad actor's deeds. Another way to think of it is well let's change the terms of the relationship. Let's completely change the dynamic here and let's try to set up different relationships where the virtuous outcome is embedded in the mechanics of that relationship. For example, in the case of the baby, if the baby is around, let's say 10 other babies of the same age, children, let's not say babies, children of the same age, then of course these children, provided there is the right environment, they could go out and play outdoors where okay, they will just be [clears throat] having fun with some bowl or something. >> Yeah. No, no. Yeah. And for me that is almost the the um the concrete version of the um that yeah that still is like the concrete version of first laying the groundwork. though the the outcomes that are more sustainable to develop a compass of a good compass for the individual can actually be achieved right but I think that that question is a question of uh like collective responsibility so to speak right if that makes sense right like you know it is true the baby actually is is helpless in that scenario right basically um >> yeah for And the goal is to make the baby not helpless basically like over time obviously. But um that is kind of uh the conception that I have of um of of of what is going on at least in that scenario, right? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Very good. Very good. Let's switch gears a little bit. So very interesting discussion thus far. Um but tell me a little bit about your outlook in terms of well what are you going to do with life? What are you thinking about maybe job prospects or what do you want to specialize on? What you would rather avoid? What are your values? What are your preferences? That sort of thing. Give me like an idea of >> where you are heading towards if anywhere because of course there is the chance that you're not going somewhere in particular. >> Yeah. So with me um like sort of how I said even something like buying a car that desire it's like the actual content which I mean like the car and stuff like that is not necessarily what I think is always relevant. And in the same way of how um what was the other thing I said? Um I don't remember right now so I'm just going to say that one. Um, >> is that another one with going and buying some cheese because you want to eat cheese, for example? That's another example you >> Yeah. Yeah, that was what I was thinking of. I was thinking I think of But anyway, anyway, it's not really important. Um but yeah, this kind of relates to my uh idea that I think that we can honestly say to ourselves like, "Oh, I am passionate about um about uh fishing and I wouldn't be passionate about anything else because I'm passionate about fishing or something like that." And I think like sometimes that is true, but I think in general actually it is like I'm not saying that the fishing guy can go and instantly be as passionate about bowling or something or uh or uh studying philosophy or something. But I think that and I think that people are naturally uh predisposed to be passionate in some areas. I think that in general what makes something possible to be passionate about is often more structural to that activity and the individual's relationship to it. Um how they do it basically um and how that kind of interacts with who they are basically. So for me it's like even though I like programming there is some programming jobs that I think would be a nightmare. >> Whereas it's something that even like I'm totally so indifferent to. I admit I think there could be a situation where as a job or even as something else uh an like kind of just a task even um it can be like very like I could be very content with it. Right. So for me, I I uh I think like it is a hard necessity that we have to sort of say like, oh, I'm a specialist in this and whatever. But at least cuz I'm young in the early stage of my life, I'm more kind of like looking out for where there is this form of doing things rather than um necessarily the thing in itself. even though I like to enjoy things in themselves. I guess uh I guess this has been very vague but in general uh I think I would not like and I hear that other people don't really uh survive very long uh to do like uh software work for like uh Google or something like this. Uh um for me I kind of prefer like I sort of like uh know most the people in the uh company or whatever. Um so yeah, I mean in some senses I mean I I would um but but I do very much enjoy uh uh programming in uh I mostly just like the very I guess old-fashioned programming like uh procedural programming in C++. I mean I use other sort of uh paradigms or whatever you want to say but um and uh if if that I mean I know that I think here those uh industries are very can be a bit difficult to get into nowadays. So I'm not really like uh I'm not really so like c my inner state isn't so caught up on whether I actually get into that or not. Um uh I I know I can be content doing many actual things. It's more about the the structure of the environment that facilitates the actual uh job. I think that many people it's like having a bad boss is much much more uh determining of whether their time is going to be okay at work at least compared to uh the task even you know >> I think that's a very good point like the whole structural point you made like I think that's key because fundamentally there may be something you enjoy let's say programming you uh fire up your computer and you write some code and you enjoy that. But then doing that in the context of a company where things are really stressful, your boss is abusive and he's calling you names or whatnot, you won't like programming anymore. >> Yeah. And I think that it is because I like the >> Yeah. And I think it is because I like the things in themselves, because I like the programming that it's important for me to be conscious of this. It would be very bad. And it would be like a double tragedy, I guess, if I did kind of enter that situation. And then afterwards, I think some people think, "Oh, I hate programming." >> Correct. >> And it's not that they do, it's cuz Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter] Uh that would be so bad in my eyes. And I mean, I think it has happened to people. Um but yeah. Um so, you know, I'm young. I'm still in uh college, so I'm not really sure how exactly uh this works. I mean the one thing I will say is that I think that um programming is one of the first jobs I saw that there is almost like a there's almost like a almost industry in sort of this like uh capitalizing off the imposttor syndrome of programmers that was and and now it is happening to other careers but it was one of the most prominent and one of the first ones I ever saw were I you know I wasn't even thinking about being a programmer and you know I saw that other people uh were watching videos and it's like tell if you don't do these things you are not a real programmer and it's like you know if if there was videos about this for like I mean now there are actually but if there was videos or books like this for like plumbers or something like this would seem almost comical. It's like if you do plumbing you're a plumber right? And of course there's good plumbers and bad plumbers, but like this sort of like that there's actual like constructed uh media to basically be like uh this for programmers I found a bit like ridiculous right >> because it's the nature of the job which is a knowledge work. You know there is this term nowadays knowledge work. >> Yeah. >> I think you talked about this. Yeah. >> Yeah. And of course it's about programming and it's about scientists doing lab work and so on and of course academics and all of that. The the key trap here is that you read the book right. So in a sense you know more but what the book has done is it has made you aware of how much more you don't know. So by opening that uh corridor it has revealed an entire vista of unknown possibilities and of areas you haven't visited kind of thing like you climb up the mountain and you see an entire continent and you're like oh my goodness look at that [laughter] and of course that is the nature of knowledge work where because there is always more to learn in the process of learning you understand how much you still need to learn and I see that with senior programmers, senior engineers as well where it's like well I am a senior engineer so of course I can do a lot but then I have to go and learn what what are all these new technologies and then this and that and the specific way of doing things and using that uh component and doing things this way because now that is what the market is doing etc etc. So you are always playing catchup in a sense and if you allow that to reflect on your self-esteem or your uh self-image then of course you will always be feeling downtrodden and always be feeling like you are faking the whole thing. >> Yeah. Um, in general, I'm a pretty open-minded person, but I think this was like something I sensed even not like experiencing directly. And to be honest, yeah, I was a little bit uh not like I'm actually afraid, but like scared of, right? like I don't really want to be in a situation where it's like >> every every uh day coming to work it's like oh you are forced to like really learn something new and uh whether it is because it's not always more efficient whether it is more or less efficient you have to sort of do it um in general I like to sort of like learn things more have time to brew in the sort of like first principles of the thing and then from there kind of whatever where it's like yeah now a lot of people uh through no fault of their own they're forced to kind of like start off with I think like uh learning these Amazon web development technologies or something and then like there's all these like framework I don't know I I honestly no I think I'm very like proud of those people I guess I have no idea how you kind of do it like that uh >> for me it was like if I didn't kind of start off with like oh these are how uh binary works and then uh this is how like you can make a simple hello world I would have never uh I would have just been like oh my gosh I'm not going to do any of this. And of course when you have this um tendency to seek depth to try to understand things from the ground up >> even if it's in relative terms the ground up that is even worse [snorts] >> once you enter an industry that works at a high pace because really you don't have the luxury to learn things inside out the way you would like to and I think what happens is you feel disempowered because you feel like um you are not uh participating in the making of the tools but you are just uh observing it and sort of faking it as it goes. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that um um but yeah, but I don't want to be like close to like uh you know like denying all like doing anything before I've even begun. Uh for me it is just like yeah where it's kind of on that level where where I kind of end up is where it happens. I mean I don't even mind doing like a a manual labor or something like that. Yeah, the thing is that you always learn the thing is that whatever you do and this includes the so-called bad things whatever happens to you if you have an attitude towards it where it's like well what can I learn from this how can I improve given this situation I think if you have that attitude ultimately you are resilient ultimately it doesn't really matter like if there is a bad boss well you learn what to look in a person so that you avoid that kind of person for example >> like you >> yeah exactly >> the cues the red flags as we say >> yeah um >> but it does happen so you it's not like oh I will read all the books about uh boss making or whatever you know bossing [laughter] >> and now I will know what to look for no that doesn't work like you just have experience and >> through experience have that attitude where it's like, okay, I'm learning as I'm going and one step at a time. >> Yeah. No, but yeah, I'm also inspired even by what you do. Like, um I I've always been um I think like uh I can admit to myself that uh life becoming too complicated, it sort of becomes too messy for me. Uh, and I kind of I kind of uh to be able to actually learn and stuff like this. I kind of need things to be um at least in an artificial sense sort of all that complication is outside of my world a little bit, you know? >> Um, so I can just like kind of take in pieces at a time. Um, can you actually tell me how uh if you don't mind how you kind of um >> uh started with the the hut kind of uh prospect because I think like uh maybe the laws here is like different. Uh >> yeah, but I was interested very much in that. >> So of course the legal side of things is covered. So it's all legal what I've done. But >> that ultimately doesn't speak to the attitude. Uh for me what kind of forced me to go down this path is the situation where it's like there is no good option for me. So instead of trying to escape, I will go all in. Uh what's the thing when you are in a hole? You just keep digging kind of thing. [laughter] So you end up the other side. Uh so it was like okay I will uh commit to this and see how it goes and I don't know the outcome but what I do know is that I will try in earnest and this also goes to the point of what you were saying earlier where the structure if the structure is such so for example me I'm not exactly thrilled to do manual labor for example but the manual labor I do here I do it with enthusiasm I like it because I know that I am effectively building my world here. It's like Minecraft in real life. Like literally like [laughter] dig into mountains and do stuff and um I live in it. So for me it's like well I have to do it with enthusiasm because it's a way of taking care of myself and it's a way of building capacity to cope with evolving states of affairs. But it's not just to say it's not though that in a vacuum I was just sitting there. It was a peaceful life and I was like well what could I do to disturb this quietude? It wasn't [laughter] really like that. It was like well >> yeah and yeah I just had to rise to the occasion. >> Yeah. Another point which is also a commentary on a theme we were discussing earlier which is >> the situation many times forces your hand and of course in a vacuum that might sound like a bad thing but many times I have come to appreciate it as a good thing because if we have the luxury of not committing >> we then fall into the trap of overthinking overanalyzing and over strategizing And well, what if this? What if that? I could be doing that instead. There is also this other possibility. And of course, if you think about it, there are infinite possibilities. You could be anything, anywhere, for whatever. But kind the world is pushing you in a certain way, and you just have to work with that. And I think that's ultimately good. >> Yeah. Um, specifically, did you um when you were building a hut, did you live uh somewhere? You live in the hut full time now, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Now this is where I am. So now my room is here. So I'm right outside now. [laughter] >> Yeah. So before our meeting, I was doing some construction work. That's why I am out here. So it's it's a work in progress. >> That's cool. That's cool. Did Did you uh uh how did it work? Like where did you live before the hut was finished building full-time? So, I used to rent a place a few kilometers away from here. And uh while I was building this, I would uh walk back and forth and do work here and then go back and then come back, that sort of thing. >> Uh uh is did you have like a vehicle that you could drive between or or did you just >> No, no, it's on foot. So, of course, I covered long distances in general, but it's like 5 kilometers something like that. It wasn't that far away. So 5 kilometers for me that's about 35 minutes. >> Okay. Yeah, you definitely I do I think. Um did you >> Yeah. Did you um So so uh you probably had to be pretty logistical about like uh >> Mhm. >> transporting the materials like uh >> on transport the materials myself on foot. Uh [snorts] so I arranged for others to deliver them here. And this is kind of the point I have made before where it's like >> of course it's easy to uh tell a story and be like oh I'm such a badass. I just did everything myself right which of course is not true. Come on. I had arranged with people to uh for them to deliver the materials here. And of course, I think what um in hindsight now, I think what people saw is my determination where it was like, look, I'm not messing around. This is exactly what I want. Will you help me? Yes or no? And I think they could sense my determination and they understood that I really mean what I say. And of course, that's why they were willing to help. And I had a lot of people around here who would give me materials that they had, surplus materials. Like one day, this was amazing and it inspired an article that I wrote. Uh I was in my room. So here there is the window to the room and I was sitting there and I was doing a video call and uh there is um a neighbor of course they don't live near here but further up the mountain. So, a neighbor and uh he drives by uh drives into the land here, gets off the car, comes to the window, and is like, "Hey, neighbor, I brought you some uh sheets of metal that you could use to patch the roof." And >> I'm like, "That's amazing." And I wrote an article at the time about I forget exactly how it's called, but I think it's called eponymity and community. uh where basically the idea is this. If you want to be anonymous in the very strict sense of anonymous therefore private, you won't have a community. To have a community, you kind of have to have a name. You kind of have to have a face so that people can trust you. In other words, the gate has to be open. Your neighbor has to be able to come in, walk to your window, look into the house, >> and then they trust you. And then of course they bring you the stuff. And for me it was uh like this. I benefited from all these little contributions from all sorts of people and uh eventually through my work uh this happened. >> That's great. Um yeah. Uh did did you did you also have to do like the electrical work? >> No, the electrical work was done by a friend of mine who is an electrician. That's actually the only thing I never touched. other than of course do the setup for the solar panels but not the wiring. Uh so I did the whole thing to set up the the skeleton on which the solar panels are installed and I actually installed the panels as well but I didn't do any wiring nothing. That thing is scary. [laughter] >> It definitely is right. Yeah. My friend told me um the good thing with electric electricity related work is that you know when you've messed up things will explode. [laughter] [clears throat] >> Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Um that's very interesting. So Okay. Okay. Uh do you want to move on to another topic or >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So uh tell me tell me uh what do you want? because you were telling me about writing and note takingaking. So yeah, tell me a little bit about that as well. And also I want to learn a little bit more about your fiction like what does that uh entail? Like what do we mean you write fiction? Like tell me a little bit more. >> Yeah. So uh um I wrote I I'm I mostly write uh like uh fiction novels or uh and then also uh sometimes [clears throat] screen plays, right? >> Um there was actually time I was thinking about doing a screenplay as uh even a career but that is very like I don't know I would still enjoy that but it's very like yeah uh precarious right? Um, yeah. So, with my novels, I mostly just do I mean, I guess it can be put in the in the fantasy genre, but I find that mine is less it's it's more similar to the real world. um not even in so there's one classification of fantasy is uh like a low low fantasy and then these are often uh or there's often some that are just like it is the real world but there is like demons or something right mine is not similar in that sense it's more similar as in I think that uh I involve more like uh serious real world kind of uh things like there is like a big giant monsters and stuff like that. So in in that sense it's and there's there's a lot of people have magic powers and whatever but uh there is like uh like a lot of like uh politics and stuff like this. Uh so I mean and and yeah I mean um a lot of people dismiss sort of the fantasy genre that it's like but there is a lot of works that is like very I think very like serious uh and uh I'm impressed by the commitment of some of these writers that they uh they have spent hundreds of thousands of hours on pro probably yeah probably even hundreds of thousands of hours on some of their writings. Uh I of course like have other things to do. I don't have that time. But so I kind of have one main uh series that I work on uh for that and then the scripts I can just do every once in a while. And those are more usually based on a a realworld kind of a drama I guess or something like this. Um, and I I with my writing I'm not especially the fantasy one. Um, I'm not so like uh I I uh construct everything to be like here is the lesson, here is the themes, here is the exact thing beforehand. I do a lot more like uh it's like uh unplanned kind of writing and stuff like that. Um, but there is like a a big kind of overarching uh conflicts and stuff like that. Uh, and I do try to put a lot of things that I experience or know in that writing. Uh, >> and how does that work? like do you have like um a lesson you want to teach and you work out the story from there or you have an idea of a plot and the lesson kind of emerges through there. How does that work? Or maybe >> Yeah. So I think for me I do kind of adhere to the classical sort of idea or not maybe not classical but like I guess it's like classically modern in that like it's like the mainstream idea now uh right um of like the conflict is the first thing to uh like the thing I actually structure kind of beforehand And then like uh the plot it revolves around the conflict and the story kind of arc is around the plot. Um and then I think in from the the characters must be determined to set up that conflict and then the characters some pop into my mind but then they kind of is like how the sort of philosophical lessons are explored. Um, and sometimes even they're like very wild like fantastical characters but they explore something I think is very uh fundamental. Uh like for example maybe to make the thing more concrete uh one of the main villains of the novel is uh like it's like the kind of background of it is that a this is not like the real world right but in their world a thousand years ago uh all these people at the same time they got like very powerful magic powers and before that uh the people or it was like humanity but uh it was very much like the Hobbesian world of it's like cruel like uh cruel short lit lives in nature and especially so because humanity like was actually decently technologically developed but there the animals have magical powers and they're predators right and some of them are big and stuff so it's like not very fun when a big giant magic monster tries to destroy your city or something. But so then but all at once all these humans around the world, some of them got it. There wasn't that many people, but they were powerful enough and they were also immortal. So they became like the uh the the vanguard of uh humanity or whatever against the monsters. Uh but then they have uh disagreements between them. Uh and then they're they all fight and stuff like that, right? It's a very like kind of normal myth story, right? But it actually happened in their reality, right? Um but then at the end of their battle when like most of them are dead, the uh one of them says uh uh they they fear that one of them has a magic power. He was like the bad one, I guess. Um even though it's like good and after history, right? But uh they fear he's going the the ones on the victorious side fear that he can use his magic powers to come back to life basically. >> Uh and that he was the most powerful one so it's going to be a big bad show. So then one of them says, "Well, we're already respected almost like gods, right? Because they primitive religion, so they understand how that kind of works. But we're almost respected like gods in our world. So I'm going to make an organized religion to develop society in the way I want so that society has these myths. So basically when this guy comes back he'll be like the antichrist basically is the idea because he's but he's not even sure that that guy will come back but he thinks like I'm going to build a society. So obviously there's some themes that are like related to like you know like uh the Christian churches, the Catholic church even though they are a a p uh um a uh pantheon or um a a non uh I'm tripping over my words here but there's multiple gods. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Polytheistics. Sorry. Yeah. They're a polytheistic society. Uh their or the organization. So he is like um but part of this is there almost a satirical element where um people I think nowadays because of the narrativization we're told like there is some Illuminati who controls all the governments and stuff like that. Um and that basically there's almost like a hidden satirical element that the only way this would be possible is if there was some like guy who has magic powers and can live forever, right? And then he [laughter] is literally in the story uh there are some of these gods and they have magic powers and they live forever and that's how they control um but but it's sort of like a a dual thing where it's like in a way it's satirical right because it's like oh the only way this could happen is if this kind of guy existed but also he does use real strategies that yes special interest groups that are powerful used to control uh society and religion and stuff like this. Um and uh he's like I guess they're the two main bad guys. the guy who invented the religion and the religious institution to control the society and then the guy who is going he does come back actually uh he did he the guy is right he uses and it's also sort of the debate uh the ethical debate is that guy that comes back to life he is like a bad guy or we would think he's a bad guy but was the other guy right because he does a lot of things that you would say is very unethical to constru struck this and he's lying to all the people. He did change the story, right? Uh of what really happened. He made a narrative. Exactly. >> Um is he right to make this institution because yes, when that guy comes back, he's going to kill a lot of people, but is he still right to like it's like the noble lie kind of idea. Um but kind of synthesized, right? Like he made this whole uh authoritarian structure to control society. And there's even bad things he do. One of them is um the I I'll just uh name the bad guy his uh the bad guy who was going to come back to life. His name is uh Trigali. Um his powers um he the most powerful version of one of the five main uh magic powers that the humans have, the dark power. So it only works when things are in the darkness basically. So, like he they can only use it if it's at night time or in the shadows or whatever. Um, but he can basically get he because he's the most powerful one. All the original ones that are immortal are the most powerful, but he can one of their powers is they can control people's minds in the dark, but he can control all the other dark people's minds and basically compound his powers. And that's why he's so powerful like to put it simply, right? So to prevent this from happening in society later the other god who invented the religion his name is uh ravictus he made one of the tenants that basically the dark people are like witches and demons. So they when they discover that one of their children is a dark one, they kill them. They burn them alive. Like so this is like a real element in uh history. But there's actually a reason for it, right? Um but it's like is this like this is obviously terrible, right? You know, killing children is like the worst thing you can think of, one of the worst things. But he did it for a legitimate reason. Is it okay? What is it not? Right? Um and then the uh the other the even the trigali he's not supposed to be like an adultery evil he is more like kind of represents that kind of uh it's most kind of like anian ideals and then the uh like our perspective of evolution right so even though uh sort of a thousand years ago on first principles because those guys were immortal and they had powers they also became better at science science, right? Like some of them can fly around, right? And then you imagine like if before that time that would be very useful to get a lot of scientific data you can't otherwise get. And because they could live forever, some of them that were more interested in science, they basically become like Aristotle, right? It's like, you know, you can record all the animals and stuff like that. So he kind of uh even though they didn't discover it really scientifically our first principles he deduces a more uh a more modern conception of like uh both like Darwinian evolution and this kind of stuff and how life comes about. He doesn't know everything, but because he kind of focuses on these ideas, he is like, oh, um, he's like a very like more modern villain, I think, cuz his like kind of idea is, uh, even though he is dead, he can kind of see the world using his powers. Uh, kind of like the eye of Sauron or whatever. Um but he says oh um Rovictus has made tried to make humanity like the sort of like end of history idea and it's like he basically says uh humanity as its whole is selfish because what we see is that as the universe develops right it's like more complicated uh beings get formed right like you see this as in like um Like you know uh planets are made of more complicated things than like just the nitrogen floating around and then that makes plants which are more complicated and then animals come and eat plants and they're more complicated and right now but he's basically says right now as humans we are the apex right we have consciousness we have this stuff but in a sort of like stupid way we are going to be we try to cut off the line at ourselves so we stop evolution of the universe basically, right? Because we just want to be like happy or like we just want like or we're scared as the other, right? So, he wants to stop this and he thought that them getting the magic powers is basically like a wakeup call and there actually was an alien that gave them the magic powers, but that's not really important. They don't know. They never find out about the alien. Uh but he basically said uh oh the a the alien sent a a telegram. I mean yeah it's this is very fantastical right but it touches the real themes that the telegram said like basically they had to translate it right it wasn't in whatever but he thought the translation says basically simply it's like a short one but it came with other like things that help them translate it. He thought the translation says who are you? And he thought the alien asked humanity like in a sort of mocking way like who are you? Like you have developed consciousness. Who are you? Like what are you going to do with it? And he basically over the a thousand years thought it was longer than but he thought like oh like we've been given like the alien is saying to us and we're kind of showing that we're shortsided to believe that because we have consciousness we can cut off everything and just become comfortable and like uh not evolve anymore basically um or evolve in a way that that stops evolution basically. So he's not like he's not like a a so like a a a straw man social Darwinist where he's like oh the strong survivor whatever but he's very much like he thinks that the powers and stuff and the magic monsters and stuff can be used to affect humanity's like biological form and consciousness to evol but he but he is immoral and like we would think he's immoral um but it's kind of this negotiation between like uh morality and stability or our ethics and like stability and then his idea of like pushing humanity forward, right, to become something else. >> Terrible drive as it were of evolution >> and uh yeah um no yeah there's like all sorts of weird stuff. I mean, yeah, I didn't even come up with it randomly like what I was like, okay, so the the dark powers, they're it's like the the the powers themselves are just powers, right? But because these gods were influential and because the powers naturally kind of relate to certain topics, there's like almost like philosophies that are created around the powers, right? Um so the dark one they there's three variations of that one but they affect mostly the mental space. So one of them is a creation dimension and they can like in the if there's an area of shadow they can make like little animals or something from their own imagination that they invented beforehand. So that um and then one of them is they can touch you and they can like make you if if they either touch you because touching someone it's like a shadow is created right so you can always touch you right but or if there's a lot of darkness they can make you like your they can control your senses basically so they make you see things that you don't actually see or stuff like that and then um the last one is they're actually kind of similar because um but one of them is affecting directly your brain like it's making a brain illusion So they can also they're also used ironically as like cell phones because they can like put a thought in your mind over a long distance. Uh they use like a crystal that transports the darkness. I don't know it's like kind of complicated but the other ones they just they if there's a dark area like a shadow on the wall they can change the wall to look like any mirage right but this is but all these are still about like perception the mind and whatever. So a philosophy of the darkness one has kind of developed where they are very much um and they're very much like the app priori like mind over matter like pure idealism kind of philosophy which kind of makes sense because they see that oh what we make people see as a trick of the mind is more real than matter itself and the creation ones we create them out priority like they have to invent the animals beforehand in this kind of like mind space and then they put it into reality. So this philosophy kind of developed in of this magic power I guess. Uh and then I thought of that all that together and I was like okay I want to make more of the magical uh beasts they're called that are the nonhuman ones and they kind of have variations of the human powers. Um so I thought oh but why don't we have one that's a plant right for once. Uh, and then this one, but it grows out of the ground like a real plant. And then, but I wanted this one to interact with the humans more. So then this plant, it the roots spread. It's the it is like the darkness, but the roots make like these little like new uh like offshoots of the plant. And then in any of the areas that they cast in the shadow uh the the these new offshoots the people can like touch the plant and communicate with the plant and it works like a hive mind. So then humans we can become like a collective consciousness sort of. So there was one uh they were like a tro but I I you know it's very common that we have the collective consciousness as like these like good hippie guys or whatever but I was like I kind of want to make them in between. I don't want to make them like the Borg so they're all bindless but I also don't want to make them good hippie guys. So they're actually mostly [snorts] like a a Mongol horde and they want to spread the planet and take over all the other civilizations cuz they think the collective life is the best. But they're not like they're not just like purely without individuality too. It's like very much the plant kind of sort of knows or at least has all the memories of all the people but it knows like who put the memory in. So it's like they don't really lose their individuality but they are almost more effective in a way because it's like you know they almost have like a poor version of the internet like I can see my uh my grandma's memories. cuz I can see all the people in my village's memories just by touching the tree. Uh but uh so this kind of anyway like you know like yeah I have fun with all these ideas and it's very whatever. >> Do you publish any of this by the way? Oh so just to say I will need to go soon because the electricity will run out. It's also getting dark so [laughter] >> but do you publish any maybe we can close on this point here? Uh not yet. This one is like this is like sort of my mega work, right? And it has all this stuff. All the fantasy ideas are in this kind of book >> which is like a series. It's very long. [laughter] And uh >> plan to publish it. Is that part of >> I do plan to publish this one. Um and then for my scripts, um it's sort of like with scripts it's like there's not really a point in publishing it. It's like if I want to like do it as a career or want to whatever I have to find like you know an agent or like uh if it's a low budget want someone to film it and stuff like that. >> I don't really care about filming things myself. It's very like I just find it very like stressful to organize all the action. I have done it before but um this one I Yeah. But this is more like something I will publish this maybe when I'm like 35 or something. The whole series at the same time. Uh but yeah, no I very much uh enjoy making these uh this this book. Um and for me, yeah, this is about the most fundamental sort of ideas of reality and that we have had in humanity and stuff. >> No, no, that's fascinating. I well if you have like a blog at least where you could I don't know provide the snippets or hints or whatever or what you are working on I think that would be interesting because what you described here sounds fascinating and at least from my perspective it's fascinating not because it's an interesting story but because fundamentally the story gives us uh the grist to the mill of more stories like we can say so many things about what you mentioned Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, yeah, I think writing is like difficult, especially when it's like you can because you can make it as long as you want, as short as you want, and like it is like an infinite possibilities kind of scenario, but within one activity. Uh, this especially this like fiction writing, right? Uh so for me it's like sometimes I do get a little like oh is cuz I describe these ideas to you here but they don't really appear that way in the story just like you hear the vacuum of the whatever it's like they are >> presented over the long narrative and there's like it's from a perspective of a couple guys and whatever right so um sometimes it's like yeah for me the difficult part is negotiating kind telling the story itself, which is like slow paced and whatever, and then like putting these ideas in a way that actually uh still connects to the ideas that they are, if that makes sense, you know. >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Of course, because that's how a story is. You cannot just say, okay, this is a story in two pages and, you know, game over. You have to tease it out. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, it's fun. I mean, I wish I had more time to work on that. I have a lot of a lot of different interests. Um, and then yeah, I also have to uh, you know, like we got to do what we got to do, right? At the same time, too, right? >> Of course. Of course. And the thing is that um, like with this book, for example, there are infinite possibilities. Sure. But maybe it's also good to just say you know what I will publish this in let's say 2 years and then move on to something else because then of course if you keep working on something well infinite possibilities also mean that it's never done. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I do I do have a very concrete plan of um >> of what this book is. Like it's like a a three series. I basically know like almost everything. It's just like writing out uh the details and then like editing the book. So like you know uh it is like yeah like um there are like editing like sort of guidelines of like what makes an actual enjoyable story to read that is not necessarily the same as like what is just fun to write for the individual. Right. So >> um that's like kind of the second aspect of the process, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very well. Very well. I say let's call it a day because it's getting dark and I hear my >> inverter beeping. Well, thank you so much. >> You're welcome. You're welcome. It's uh >> some interesting stuff. >> It's it's been very been very fun. >> Um >> I enjoyed it. [laughter] >> Uh so um you can send me any links you have and I will include them in the description of the video and I will close >> the recording. >> Okay. >> Very well. Very well. So take care Logan and good luck with everything. Bye-bye. Um, >> so >> can you close the recording and then can I just ask you one one thing? >> Yeah, sure. Okay, I will stop the recording then and then you can ask me. Let me stop the recording and let me confirm that I stopped.

In this +2-hour video, I talk to Logan about story-telling, finding conflict and escapism in fiction, and related life lessons. We start with a brief introduction to what Logan is doing right now. He is a university student in the field of general science. His interest is in game development, though he has not pursued that as a specialisation yet. Logan is also into writing fiction, which he tells me more about through our conversation. I ask Logan what does conflict mean in the case of story-telling. How are we drawn into the story and what can we learn from it. We discuss how sometimes the story becomes self-fulfilling and how people can be influenced to act accordingly. Part of our talk involves thought experiments and explores philosophical themes. We make comments on the fact that material conditions do not necessarily lend themselves to a single appropriate action. In the context of stories as a means of understanding current dynamics, we discuss how we can envisage possible worlds before they occur and regulate our behaviour in response to what we think is right or wrong about the manner of our ways. Towards the end of our exchange, Logan tells me about the work of fiction he is writing. He will eventually publish it and I am excited to learn more about it. ## About "Prot Asks" In this video series, I talk to anybody who is interested to have a video call with me (so do contact me if you want!). The topics cover anything related to Emacs, technology, and life in general. More here: https://protesilaos.com/prot-asks/.