Emacs, Philosophy, and Infinite Depth w/ Protesilaos

Hello everyone. My name is Proilos, also known as Pratt. I am happy to be here with Joshua and we will talk about all sorts of interesting things. I am looking forward to it. >> Absolutely. I think Emacs will be definitely on the list, but also philosophy and and before I start that though, you're out in you're out in Cyprus. How are things out there right now? Because I hear there's a bunch of craziness in the region. So, >> somebody on the ground, how's it going? Uh so it's a little bit technical because Cyprus itself is not under attack. So the Republic of Cyprus but there are two sovereign military bases of the United Kingdom here and they are of course assets of the war and they are targets in that regard. Uh there was a scare in the sense that there was a sighting of a drone and of course everybody is on high alert. It could be a target. We will see how it goes. The nearby villages of those military bases could of course be caught in the fire, >> but generally speaking, the rest of the island is safe. Of course, we never know how this goes. >> Of course. Yeah, it's definitely Yeah. totally up in the air. Whereabouts on the island are you? I know you're kind of in a you're a bit of a remote location like you kind of got your cabin in the woods for lack of a better term, right? So, >> so if you imagine that the island is like a rectangle, of course, simplifying now the bases are in the southern part and me I am somewhere in the middle of the rectangle towards the western side. >> Gotcha. Okay. >> So, I am far away from the fire in that regard. >> When did you when did you move out there? You're originally from I want to say Greece. Am I correct in saying that? >> Yeah. >> So I was born and raised in Greece. I lived there for the first 18 years of my life. Then I moved to Cyprus to study to do my university studies. Then I traveled around Europe and I came back here. It was 20 end of 2015, early 2016. I'm not sure. I I'm not sure about the exact date, but it was around that time >> decade already. >> Wow. Good for you. And you're doing you're doing the lifestyle that it seems that um programmers seem to gravitate towards after they've been behind a computer for some time. They're like, I'm just going to go, you know, build a cabin in the woods and kind of get off the grid and just, you know, never touch a computer again type of thing. Is that kind of is that kind of your your sentiment or or what what is what's the underlying I guess motivation behind that? >> It was a little bit like that though. I wasn't coming from a programming background. I was doing an office job unrelated to programming. It was in politics and uh I was like you know what this pace of life is not for me like I cannot live like this. I don't like it. It's not sustainable. It long term it will break me. So I wanted the change of pace and thus I came to the mountains and then I discovered the programming. So now I combine the two. I work on the computer but I really have a very well- reggulated workflow where I work on the computer. As soon as I am done I switch it off and I go do something else outside manual labor or I will go for a hike. But I will never sit in front of the computer for hours on end and just check around stuff. >> No, that's very valuable. And I mean I think that that is that's the way to use a computer specifically in our current culture where it's just so dopamineergic that for lack of a better term like a dopamine driven culture where everybody's just continually doom scrolling for lack of a better word. um using the computer for more creativity as opposed to taking in. Right. It's something that I've definitely been trying to do more of in my own personal life. I mean, I'm I'm not um I guess I guess resources would be a little bit constrained either electricity and that sort of thing out there, right? Like you you had mentioned you were getting a new generator, so it's kind of like you you're limited in your use, which is actually a good thing. I know some people will like not even allow internet in their own home. like they'll have to go out to the the library or something to use it or at school. >> What are your what are your thoughts on that? Like what do you think that is the best way forward for somebody that's I'll call myself a city slicker? Somebody that's you know still still in it but has those inklings of not really wanting to participate in that in that overwhelming culture. I think it's good if you uh place constraints on on yourself >> like there is this I think the programmers use this a lot. What is is theis pack I think they call it in reference to Ulysis or Odisas Odysius. So there is this idea where you have kind of two selves. You have your strong self who is in control of the situation >> and then you have your weak self, your frail self who basically gives into any kind of temptation. >> So what you want is the strong self to place constraints so that when the weak self takes over it cannot do anything with it >> with taking over. And for example this is the idea of taking your internet away from your home. So you are the strong self and you're like you know what I am making a commitment a pact with myself and then when of course I'm not feeling strong when the weak self takes over well there is no internet my friend and what happens is by introducing that kind of friction you make it extra difficult to backslide >> because now it takes effort to go to the library or wherever to get access to the internet and therefore you won't do it. >> Interesting. Yeah. It's kind of like >> it's a way to hold yourself accountable. Yeah. Sorry. >> No, I was just going to say it's like not having junk food in the house type of thing, right? So, you're not going to eat it if it's not present and it's there's this overwhelming friction that makes it, you know, untenable to even do it in the first place, which I mean that's that's definitely a way to do it, I would say, because you've I was looking at your GitHub just before we hopped on this call. You're a productive man. like you've got over 800 commits just this year already. So you're you're obviously outputting a lot which is awesome to see. You're um you're obviously because people might not know you but I think they do in the Emacs world. It's kind of my shared audience I think with yours. You're you're a maintainer of multiple packages denote modus themes. There's a few others. How did you get into that? Like what was because obviously you don't really have a background in in IT or computers or anything. Emacs kind of was this thing that just resonated with you or how did you how did it all start for you I guess? >> So I switched to Linux in 2016. Before that I didn't have any background in computers like very basic stuff. Imagine I learned about alt tab I don't know 2013 2014 something like that. Alt tab >> and uh control ctrl + v that sort of thing. I'm like oh this is magic right. Um and um I started using um Vim and Terminals and T-Max and Tyling window managers and all that >> and eventually I was trying to piece together a system like a computing environment that was that was consistent >> and I couldn't do it with Vim and friends because they are implemented in different languages. Uh when you write a function in Vim it doesn't carry over to T-Max and MOMA and so on. Mhm. >> So I was like I need something else and I find Emacs which Emac is exactly this. It's like well you have Emacs list to rule everything and you can draw linkages between the various activities like email and agenda and programming and whatever. So I'm like okay there it is. And I start playing around with Emacs and eventually by tinkering I figure out how to program in Emacs list >> and from there it's like okay what are my needs and I start implementing them as packages and yeah long story short here we are uh with all those packages. phenomenal because I think my first introduction to you was um you have a video called Emac Mindset and Unix philosophy and I it's almost six or seven years old and I remember watching it at the time uh and I was like who's this bearded guy talking about edex and >> and um that was I think that was my first introduction to you and at the time I was obviously in the neoim world exactly trying to do that that workflow where you kind of bring in all these different TUI CLI programs, try to make them integrate together in a tiling window manager because of course, right? And that video for me, I think really planted the seed of like, oh, like there's this integrated environment that takes all of this in together under one roof and permits you to essentially use the primitive of text to manipulate the environment. And and for me, that was this that was the the seed that was planted. I didn't get it until years later of using Emacs because I was continually comparing it apples and apples to a Neo Vim workflow for example. And I think that's a mistake that a lot of people make in that you're like it's a text editor. But when you start to see it as this lisp environment, it takes that completely like it's a paradigm shift, right? It just it just takes it to this next level in which list machines rule the world type of thing and you're like we we lost this like we could have had such nice things where a computer was this integrated environment. Do you feel the same sentiment as me? Like it's almost like screaming from the rooftops type of thing. >> Oh, it's exactly the same. It's it's indeed a revelation. And once that clicks and you're like, "Oh, the same language I use to configure Emacs is the same language I use to write an extension for Emacs." >> Mhm. >> So when I am configuring Emacs, strictly speaking, I am programming. Granted, it may not be the best programming of your life, but I am programming. >> So of course, those skills carry over to actually programming, extending Emacs, >> and then it feels like it's all the same. there is interconnectedness like there are no barriers and uh the more you put into it the more you are rewarded like the greater your mastery of it. That's that's it's amazing that it's it's something that >> I I actually have said that like I wish I could see somebody that's >> got the 40-year-old Emac configuration and just see like what that person's you know thought process is because to me like it's this it's this lifetime editor. It's this thing that it just the trajectory of it is essentially um there's the meme where it's like the learning curve of Vim is kind of like this but Emacs is like this like spiral that just continues you know in on itself like it to me it is definitely um there's nowhere else to go when you kind of get that revelation I would say have you looked into something like geeks like the operating system where you have uh guile scheme as your um like your uh configuration language for lack of a better term. Have you thought about doing something like that where you have like lisp up and down the entire stack? >> I used it for a while. It's good. The problem with geeks is that it is pedled or it is likened to Emacs. So it's like oh it's the Emacs of Linux distros. Right. >> Right. where I think it's not entirely accurate because what makes Emacs extra powerful is that it is introspectable. It's a runtime an Emacs list runtime and you evaluate something you have it right there and you can check it and you can ebug it live all that whereas I didn't see that with geeks. Maybe it has it but I'm not aware of it. >> Sure. So it has lisp yes but it's a a configuration language which of course you can do great stuff with but it doesn't have that aspect of introspectability. So without that it doesn't feel emacy enough. Uh that granted of course it's also about if you have the use case for geeks like do you need reproducibility do you need rollbacks you know all that that it gives you. So in my case, I haven't had a use for that. Like I have a single computer. I don't really need to be uh deploying it in different places. >> Sure. Fair enough. Yeah. You're dead, I want to say. Is that still the Okay, >> nice. Just this the stable or are you living on the edge or >> Oh, no. Super stable. It's so good here. >> Okay. It's so good. Like the only program I compile myself is Emacs and I do that because of the packages I maintain. So I need to keep up with the developments. >> Right. Okay. So you're running like 30.2 like the most recent >> 31. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I I use Nyx and I kind of still six months ago I switched over to it and it's kind of it's another paradigm shift too where it's like everything is declarative, everything is um self-contained where your configuration is almost like a git repo that you can pull down on any machine and just like 30 minutes later your machine is right back to where it was previously. So, it's it's kind of a cool thing, but I get the um the use case where it's like if you don't have multiple computers or a fleet of servers or something like that, it doesn't really make sense to do. But yeah, it's it's another I would refer to it almost the declarative package management as a Emacian uh paradigm shift as well, which is it's interesting. Um, one of my buddies calls all of the dros that are not declarative uh, legacy distributions. >> Well, in a sense, yeah, that's true. >> Yeah, absolutely. It >> Let me ask you something about Nyx, though. >> Go for it. >> Um, because of course Nyx is also a programming language and it being a programming language rather than a generic configuration language gives you a lot of power. Yes. Do you leverage that power? I don't leverage it as much as I probably could, but the ability to it's it's not like people complain about Nyx. Like it's not this usable language outside of the Nyx environment, right? So that's kind of the um why people would essentially go geeks or Nyx is that well I have a quote unquote real programming language here with geeks using scheme whereas the Nyx language is just so self-contained. Um I mean I think that it's something that functional languages for me is it's a new paradigm as well too right like where you are asking for something and the machine gives it to you whereas in imperatively asking like writing the the code and bringing it back is to me again it's another paradigm shift. So ask me again in a year I think is is the best is the best uh take on it. But I I definitely think I could be using it a lot more. Like if you look at my dot files compared to some people that have been using it for years and years, there's so much more that I could be doing with it. I believe for sure. Um and you can call like bash scripts and everything within it. So like if you need to pull down a repository or something upon uh building your machine like that's pretty trivial, etc. So, um, one question I was going to ask you too is about like because that video, the Unix philosophy is the second half of the equation. What are your thoughts on Emacs going against the Unix philosophy? What like because there's obviously two camps here. It's it's like it's not with the Unix philosophy or like extends it. What What do you think? >> I think I would be on the second camp that it extends it. Actually, I would say even that it's fully aligned with it. It doesn't even extend it. It's fully aligned with it. >> Yeah. >> If you think of Emacs as the equivalent of shell interpreter >> like uh like bin bash kind of thing, bin Emacs, right? Kind of thing in the sense that uh well, you have a program that runs Emacs list. But I don't think that is help >> because ultimately it doesn't matter if it aligns with the Unix philosophy or not. What matters is uh can you use your computer in a better way. Can you use your computer in a manner that is coherent? So in a manner that is an expression an extension of your will as it were >> and whether that is Unix or not ultimately is an implementation detail. So what Emac gives you is a layer of interactivity on top of the Unix tools. So you have uh GP and LS and CP and MV and all those nice tools. >> Mhm. >> And you use those interactively. And for example, you do a GP and you have a live preview of all the results. And you can uh do something like an edit that goes through all the GP matches and writes to all the relevant files. And you do that having full control with the key bindings that you have defined, the commands that you have for editing purposes, how you move around, the themes, everything you have in your editor extends what you would otherwise do on the command line. And for me that's ultimately about the experience rather than okay which kind of dogma are we aligned with because ultimately the computer is to be used >> right yeah I think people get super dogmatic about it it's kind of like a the systemd debate right it's like is this is this even relevant to the conversation type of thing and to some people it's tremendously dogmatic right like it's like it's almost a it's almost like a philosoph philos philos philosoph what's the word I'm looking for philos >> philosophical >> exactly philosophical if not religious stance on on the you see where I'm going with this right so >> yeah yeah >> just to add something to that um if it's just about the Unix philosophy yes or no kind of thing I think that's ultimately not an interesting discussion I think where it gets interesting and where it can be fant where it can be fruitful is when we ask about the maintainability slash sustainability of the ecosystem >> where something like systemd you can say well it concentrates it it it puts too many eggs in one basket >> I'm I'm not sharing that view but we could say it's putting too many eggs in one basket therefore it's a single point of failure kind of thing >> and that is an interesting discussion because now we have to think in terms of the robustness of the system and not so much if it's a one big program or many small program which of course system D is many small programs actually. >> Yeah. >> No very that's a valid point whereas I think for me again it goes back to that shift from it's a text editor to it's a lisp environment that in and of itself it does that one task very very well and just the byproduct of being able to edit text in it or listen to music or to write your email or whatever it may be. That's just a byproduct of the fact that it's a lisp interpreter. So, I I would 100% agree with you on that. Um I' I'd be in the same camp as you for that. >> Absolutely. I'm just going to see here what other questions I had because I have I have a bunch of questions on the on the IRC channel. I said I'm I'm going to hop on a call with prot. Give me some questions that you guys might want to answer. Um let's see here. Simple living financial independence. What that's that's kind of a underlying I guess principle of yours, right? What what does that look like for somebody of the less than millennial generation? So like Zoomer, that sort of thing because a lot of them are I don't want to say doomers, but they're a bit kind of um pessimistic on their world outlook. What are your thoughts on that? And how do you kind of move in that direction to getting independent of the system? Mhm. So of course it's not an easy problem to fix, right? Because there are parts that you can do about yourself, but there are also systemic issues. So you will always be impeded depending on what it is about. That granted, financial independence also goes together with your wants. Like if let me be schematic here. Like if I want a swimming pool and if I want a helicopter pad and if I want all those great luxuries, then of course I have to do a kind of job that grants me those luxuries. But if my lifestyle is simple, if I can live under a rock as it were in terms of my resilience and my few wants, then I can more easily acquire financial independence because I don't need to do a job that is rare that there isn't enough supply for or demand for, however you want. So I can do like a normal job and still be financially independent because my wants are limited. >> And this is my situation where my income is not high. I don't have a lot of money but I have even fewer expenses. >> So in that sense I am resilient, >> right? Um, of course you have to make sacrifices and you can only do that little by little like you cannot just one day decide to become a monk like that. You you just have to decide that okay there are things that I can live without. >> And eventually you figure out what are the parts of your lifestyle that you wouldn't sacrifice. What are the irreducible aspects of it? And then you have a baseline and it's like okay how much money do I need to have that lifestyle >> and then you work with that but you have to do that kind of exercise otherwise basically you cannot be independent because if your wants are unchecked then basically you need unlimited money to cover that. Yes, absolutely. I I wrote a piece I want to say a few year years ago, but it making it is wanting nothing. And I thought that that was an interesting like that is exactly what you're espousing because I think that >> a lot of people they they don't question their wants and they kind of are almost swayed by the society around them as to oh like I need a new phone every single year because I I guess I'm told to do that and that's like they don't even question kind of the the wants that they have. Do you think that kind of the simplicity of of Unix and Emacs, does that play into that at all? Like I I've I've seen it in myself as I've gone down the rabbit hole, for lack of a better term, of Linux and programming and all this stuff. It's to me it just kind of it's more of this like I want the only thing that I really want is like the intellectual, but more like Do you see where I'm coming from? Mhm. Mhm. I think there is a connection there because once you start using Unix/EMAC and of course Vimman friends, it doesn't really matter here. Um you are on a path towards austerity and austerity in the sense that um you focus more on the function rather than the bling rather than the fancy parts around it. And once you start appreciating that, you seek that everywhere. Like you're like, "Okay, I want the essentials. I don't really need all the fluff. I don't need all those extras." >> Great. >> And I think starting from the computer is also a safe way to do it because of how you know you can start something with the computer, experiment, >> switch distros, all that. So it's a safe way to do it whereas you know doing it with your your lifestyle outside of the computer of course has farreaching implications. >> That's very interesting. >> So it may be more difficult for you. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. The computer just being reproducible and and expendable. You kind of experiment almost intellectually. I've definitely taken the computer to be almost like an extension of my intellect to the >> like my note takingaking and everything. It it's it's almost like it's not a part of me, but it also is a part of me. You know what I'm saying? It's it's it's like this it's not like people would say I have a a computer addiction or something, but for me it's like I'm just like writing notes on my computer and to me it's like just expanding where my thought process is and it allows me to think better almost. I I don't know if you relate to that or all but I I assume you do because of Denote as your Why >> 100%. Yeah. >> Why denote and not something like or Rome? >> Mhm. So I was uh I will tell you that but then I will say something about the note takingaking. So >> uh they are not actually the same. There there is overlap but the note is a file naming scheme masquerading as a note takingaking app. >> Okay. >> Uh in the sense that the file naming scheme can be used even if you never write a single note. So me for example, I will rename PDF files, video files, uh pictures, etc. >> And the idea is that you have a consistent file naming scheme. It doesn't matter what is the file naming scheme provided that it's the same >> because then all your files are predictable like you can find what you are searching for. Because the the quality of a personal knowledge system is not how easy it is to store stuff but how easy it is to retrieve stuff. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So if you cannot retrieve it, it's actually useless. Like you can just nuke it. It doesn't matter. H if you can retrieve stuff easily, that's great. So that's what for me the note is. It's really the file naming. And then of course once you have the file naming, you might as well do notes, >> right? But otherwise I would be totally okay to use or grown for that. I wouldn't have a problem. But since I wanted to have that eventually it made sense to also have it for note takingaking. M >> just to say now on note takingaking itself I think it's an excellent way to understand yourself better because maybe you have the same experience as I do where when I write something I actually uh tease out parts that I wasn't even thinking consciously like of course they were there ultimately but they I wasn't aware of them >> and I'm like oh look by putting it out there. It's like it has a life of its own and now I can see it in three dimensions >> whereas before it had a 2D appearance >> and for me that's fascinating. >> Do you find that cuz I think we're of a similar generation. Do you find that pen and paper just because growing up that's how you were taking notes and everything? Do you find that almost easier on pen and paper versus uh the computer? >> I would say the computer is easier for me. Okay. like um pen and paper actually I I didn't write a lot of notes in even though I was of the generation of pen and paper. Yes. So I was born in 1988. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So um but I wasn't actually much into pen and paper. Actually I have to say I was not a good student. speaking to the choir here. For me, like I almost feel like when I'm writing pen and paper, it it's almost like thoughts like flow out of me. I I have that in the in the typing as well. But for some reason, it's just like >> there's almost something else guiding my hand when I'm writing. It's it's it's a very interesting phenomena. I I don't know how else to describe it rather than like it's just a a better way for like consciousness to flow through to my hand. I don't I don't know how else to put it but >> maybe there is something else as well which is that with the computer you have effectively a beam of light straight at your eyes. >> Sure. >> And of course depending on what you have on screen you have intense colors here and there, things moving around, all sorts of stuff going on >> which of course is a cognitive burden whereas a pen and paper doesn't put any pressure on you. Exactly. So maybe it's also that and maybe also from what I have heard it's also the the the feeling itself like the tactility of it like how you you know the the texture of the paper and all that. So maybe that also is a factor. >> Yeah. There's a bunch of companies trying to do like e in notebooks and the big differentiator in them is tactility, right? It's like how do much does this feel like a piece of paper? However, nothing beats pen and paper. Nothing comes close for me. >> No. Yeah. No, no. I think that would feel like an imitation, like a a similacum of the real thing. Why would you have that? Yeah. I I'm not sold. >> It's also >> of course I can see the application. Of course, like Yeah. >> It's also to me that like there's some sentiment behind analog too. Like let's say EMP hits the world tomorrow and all computers, >> you know, all the all the hard drives are wiped from the world. at least I have this book that will carry on, you know, if there's not a houseire type of thing, right? So, >> it it's it's kind of both both end, right? It's kind of interesting to because I obviously know that reproducibility with computers. You can shoot a a file off to a fargone server and have it backed up and everything like that. But, I mean, there's something to the pen and paper, too. I don't know. >> Yeah. Yeah. And of course it also connects to what we were saying earlier about uh simple ones like you see how simple technology in this regard is also resilient. Um it will be relevant even in a thousand years. I don't think it will ever not be relevant. >> Absolutely. It I guess simplicity is really >> because I'm I'm reading a book called uh the art of Unix programming and it's it's just like simplicity from day one was like essentially the the guiding star, right? And it seems like we've kind of lost the plot when it comes to simplicity in in all things, not just computing, but but in in lifestyle in general. I Yeah, it's kind of interesting that the philosophy all kind of it all kind of like brings back to this singular point of like simplicity equals this inner peace or something along those uh along those lines. Um, >> yeah. I I I don't know how else to put it. I'm obviously just kind of spitting in real time type of thing. So, >> no. And I think you put it nicely there because uh ultimately it comes down to that. Like when you have a an implementation or a lifestyle, we can generalize it because ultimately it's the same thing. We're always talking about the same thing. >> When you have something that is complex, >> you have a lot to worry about. As simple as that. You have to check a lot of things, >> right? And again that's a cognitive burden. So of course there is no peace of mind when you always have to make sure that everything is in order and it's uh not going to fall apart. The simple is that which you always comprehend and is that which gives you peace of mind exactly because you know uh how it behaves completely. Simplicity also allows for autodact dididactism, right? Like you're allowed to be you can actually self-e when the the the thing is simple, right? And a lot of the time when you look at, for example, like building a website today, >> people will be like, well, you need these super heavy JavaScript frameworks that take three years to understand or you could just use HTML, CSS, right? And it's it's kind of like it's it's almost like this um it's like a glass ceiling or a barrier to entry where the simplicity if you go back to the the first principles of it like anybody could build a website HTML CSS you know put it on a server it's not that it's not it is difficult but it's not like that difficult whereas you don't need a PhD to understand the complexity of everything right so and I mean obviously you're a self-taught person like I don't think you you grew up like building building cabins or anything like that, right? So, >> what is your kind of take on autodidact didactism? Sorry, I have a cold here. So, my >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, feel free to uh drink some water or whatever. Yeah, no problem. >> Yeah. What are your thoughts on on adidactism? >> I think it empowers you. I think it empowers you to know that well, I actually am not dumb. Granted, I don't have the education like the PhD you mentioned, right? So of course I would need to acquire that but I can still do stuff >> absent that technical expertise and it empowers you to be independent to connect to what we were saying earlier because you can uh have the initiative like for example if I cannot build something myself like in in my house for example I don't have the power of initiative I have to rely on somebody else. >> And of course, you can extend that to every facet of your life. And now you are dependent on others for everything. Whereas the spirit of the autodiduct is another way of saying it's the spirit of the person who leads by example, who proceeds by initiative. >> And it's like, you know what? I have this idea. I will just do it. Of course, there are levels to it. There are things that are more difficult than others. Like building a website is one thing, building something larger is another thing. But the ethos is the same. So it's the same kind of mindset. >> The older I get, the more that I feel like everything is the same. I I don't know if if there's >> Do you do you feel the same? >> Exactly. I feel >> just to say I feel that we could talk for example about knitting or making bread or something >> and if we pay attention to it eventually we can draw insights that apply to programming, sport, art, whatever you want to talk about. It's interesting because something like as simple as making bread or appreciating wine or something like that, there's like this infinite complexity in something that appears on the surface so simple, right? And and the more that you delve into it, it just becomes this, you know, this this deep dive into something that you're like, I didn't even sign up for this, but all of a sudden I'm I'm researching teroir and and all this different sort of thing, right? It's it's a very interesting um for me it I don't know it makes life an adventure, right? Like everything you could look at as just the surface level or you could take it and just be like there's so much more to this and just continually dive into it and yeah I I don't know that for me that seems to be like a life worth living. Mhm. And it also is about um uh simplifying your wants >> because once you understand what you just said, you don't actually need a lot of things because of the depth that they have. So there is this uh phrase like um an experience that is a mile long and an inch deep, something like that. >> Mhm. >> You don't really need that because if even if you have like an inch long, it can be a mile deep, >> right? So, so you can have that like a few things but they have a lot of depth to them. >> Yeah. And I feel like it's almost like this distraction culture, it takes us away from those simple things that really do have the infinite depth, right? And it it I don't know. It just makes for a shallower experience. Whereas you could just literally step out your your door tomorrow and look at a tree for hours and be like, "This is the most insane thing ever." And I don't I don't know. It's it's something that as I get older, I appreciate more and more and more. like having a I I've had a daughter too and and seeing just her um experiencing everything kind of for the first time as this novel experience, it it it makes you also want to revisit and relive those novel experiences and and I think it's just simply a change of mindset that allows you to experience everything again for the first time. >> Um maybe maybe that's why Emacs resonates so much with me. Is it because it would Oh, it's this it's this amazing thing that just like doesn't you can't find elsewhere, right? Coming from Windows or something where everything is this locked down environment where I just don't know how it works and I I wouldn't even know the first steps as to understanding how things work. Being able to see, oh, there's a function here that I can go to. Oh, there's another function that is Oh, I can keep going deeper and deeper and deeper until I hit the core of of Emacs where I I I don't understand as much. But >> I say >> it's just this ultimate rabbit hole type of thing, right? So, >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it ultimately speaks to the outlook of appreciating the little things because in the little things you find the universals, you find the universe. Like in the small things there is everything. >> Very very interesting. Another question somebody had asked here too is how do you better exercise discipline in all aspects of your life? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So of course discipline is the outcome is the culmination of a lot of work and you do that by trying little things like small wins trying to proceed by making small win. For example, try to uh commit to doing something relatively easy but every day. >> Let's say you wake up in the morning and you put some cold water on your face. It's not that difficult to do. But if you commit to doing it every day now, it requires some effort. >> And then you want to do that for more things like okay, I have to walk for five minutes. It's not that much. It's five minutes, >> but I have to do it every day. There are no excuses. It's raining. I don't care. It's snowing. I don't care. You have to do it. Like, and like there has to be like a superior reason not to do it. Like a a very very powerful compelling reason not to do it. >> And once you have that as your default for everything that you do, then discipline comes about as the end product. >> So it's not something that you just have or you don't have. You build it up. Once you have discipline of course you can uh commit to more demanding tasks such as for example you say you know what I will just quit uh alcohol or coffee or whatever and you just do it. That is difficult. That is that is indeed where discipline is necessary >> because there is a draw and you have to have the to master the willpower to resist that draw. So that is something you do after you have built up the capacity of the small wins. M >> uh once you of course do that and you have a life that is disciplined ultimately it's very easy actually there is no friction because for example to use an example of let's say you quit the junk food okay in the beginning there is always that uh temptation that voice in your head which is like well you know some French fries right now would be fantastic with you know all the sauce and stuff very good and the show down the side or like a liter of it or whatever Eventually though that voice disappears. It has no power over you. >> And then you don't feel anything. And let me use a real example here. I uh quit junk food in 2006. When I first did that, it was extremely hard. On my way back home from college, uh I had to go uh through a street where a McDonald's was. And of course, you know, you know the like it draws you in. And I'm like, you know what? What I will do? I will take the long way home, which is an extra 45 minutes just so I can avoid that. So I was uh circumventing McDonald's by going around the city, >> avoiding the temptation. Yes. >> Yeah. Eventually though it works. Now I can just go straight. I don't feel anything. So it's a muscle that you build up over time is what is what you would say. >> I like that. Yeah. So starting with very small like almost almost meaningless things and all of a sudden it just takes off into it. It's almost how there's that quote how you do anything is how you do everything. >> So it's it is it is quite literally that. Hey. >> Yes. Yes. And you can also think of it like um with retraining your muscle memory. For me, this is a good example actually because I had this problem where I was not good with typing on a regular keyboard >> and I had these awkward motions and stuff which of course are also bad ergonomically. But the thing is muscle memory if you let it, it will always do what it knows to do, but you can retrain it and then you're like, "Oh, I'm just touch typing now. I'm so good at this." >> Y >> um it's the same thing like you can build up the skill. H you're a split keyboard guy I think too, right? You you you >> you talk about the iris. I want to say I I'm also one of those. But when when I started with the split >> when I started with the split keyboard, my habits got way better because you can't literally you can't reach across, right? So, you have to use the keys as they were intended. And all of a sudden, you're like, "Oh, like I can touch type better now because I'm not hitting, >> you know, this weird combination or I I would literally have to take this hand and put it over here to do what I was previously doing." Right. So, would you recommend everybody use a split keyboard? >> Oh, it's a good exercise. Of course. Of course. Granted, they are expensive, but if you can build one yourself, it will be a bit cheaper. >> Yep. Um, but I would say, yeah, if you can afford it, sure, give it a try. It's um I think it's worth it. Yeah, >> it it definitely does build better habits. At least that's in my experience. It it definitely changed everything typing wise for me. And whereas I was previously like 60 words a minute was the maximum I could ever even fathom. Like, yeah, three years ago to now it's it's night and day. So, it's I would >> I'm just looking here if there's other questions. Do you have any questions for me? I suppose. >> Yeah. Tell me about your keyboard first of all. So, um switches, key caps, um and the general idea with the mods and stuff. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, this is a chify. So, this is a 36 key. These are the um these are the chalk key caps. So, these are the um like there's MX and there's chalk. I'm sure you're familiar, right? >> Yeah. These are a little bit lower profile. Um actually, a company had sent me these key caps. >> Ah, I see them. Yeah. >> So, they're they're like, you see how they're almost >> Yeah, they kind of wrap around the hand a little bit nicer. Um it's a key cap called I want to say, let me think for a second. If I don't think about it, it'll come to me. Um, let me think. It'll come to me. I'll put it in the show notes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But yeah, it's it's a Bluetooth keyboard, so there's no wires. I don't know if I would do Bluetooth again, but it is kind of nice to not have the the the wires. Um, Colemarmac DH layout. >> Oh, interesting. Yeah. Um, I figured because I had previously used a erodox keyboard, which is much bigger, like 80 almost 84 keys, I want to say, and I was like, if I'm going to use 36 keys, I'm just going to go all in. Like, I'm just going to I'm going to do the the Colemarmac thing. I'm going to just make this as ergonomic as possible, at least on paper. Um, and I don't regret it. I think that it has made my uh typing life much simpler. The other thing that I use is obviously home row mods because on a 36 key you don't really have your dedicated shift or control or alt or anything like that. So for Emacs, my control finger is actually my middle finger and my and my alt finger, my my meta key is my third finger. So for me, it's like tremendously ergonomic to just be like, "Oh, Meta X." Like there's there's no reaching whatsoever. Um I don't know if you use home row mods but I would people >> I tried them. >> Did you have the issue with the the timing or >> Yes. Yeah. >> Oh it was always a pain and there is this program I believe accordion. >> Okay. um which tries to be this uh middleware where it will basically make sure that uh if you press a mod on one side of the keyboard, it only counts if the other key is on the other side of the keyboard kind of thing. >> Gotcha. >> H I didn't feel that it was working for me. So eventually what I ended up doing is the oneshot modifiers. Oh, granted the Iris has a few more keys than the Chocoy there. >> Yes. And um because I can have dedicated keys, I just do that. But they are one shot. So I I enjoy that. >> Press once and then it Yeah. Okay. Interesting. >> So you tap it and there is a window which is configurable. Like I think I have it to two seconds. Okay. >> So for example, meta X I will just tap with the thumb and then X >> and yeah, that's how it is. So for me it's a thumb cluster where everything is on the thumb. >> Gotcha. Yeah. I mean that that is immediately more ergonomic than reaching out with the pinky because Emacs Pinky is the that's the huge every everybody you know I'm never going to use Emacs because Emacs Pinky is like I mean Home Row Mods >> all of these different uh ergonomic keyboards they kind of they take that out of the equation a little bit. It took me a lot of it took me a lot of time to get the the timings right for sure. And do I do I never >> have you know missed taps? No. like it definitely still happens, >> but >> timing it for, you know, like 185 milliseconds or whatever it is that I personally use, >> I mean, that's it's very subjective, right? So, I think everybody everybody has to go in and fine-tune that. There's no way anybody could use my configuration and be like, "Oh, yeah, this works." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, of course, you have to experiment a lot. Yeah, >> most definitely. And and I mean, I think that I've I don't want to say I'm the at the bottom of the rabbit hole when it comes to this now, but I would say that now that this one is I'll probably put a bow on this one and probably wrap it up for like I don't really want to go any deeper because already I can't really use a normal querty keyboard. Then >> yeah, I think where this uh rabbit hole becomes infinite is once you use um once rather you try to configure along the lines of well what is the material of the case >> and does it have foams or not and you have all these extra par. Yeah, exactly. The sound and all that then of course you can never end. >> Yeah. No, 100%. And then you could take it you you could spend $3,000 on a keyboard, too, if you really wanted to. And >> Oh, for sure. >> Yeah. And it's it's not something that really interests me. I think the ne if I do another one, it would be like a fully >> I would do like the full self-built like the like from the schematic all the way up type of thing just because that I mean you you understand we're kind of the same persuasion, right? So if if something's worth being done, it's worth doing it all the way, right? So but uh >> No, no, I agree for sure. me I didn't do it the only reason I didn't do it is because at the time I was hardressed to have uh something that works because I was also suffering from the injury the RSI >> so I was like you know what first let's get something that works and next time of course I can experiment from a position of comfort >> right yeah and I mean I I will say I had written a book in 2023 and I was still using the quarterty layout and um there were days where I was like yeah like my hands by the end of it I was like I don't want to type anymore. Right. >> I will say because people pe people people do do ask like is it really worth it? Yes. Like I would there's no days I could type thousands and thousands of words per day and I would walk away being like I could do a thousand more type of thing, right? So I would say it's definitely worth it if using a computer for the purposes of uh of creativity and that's kind of your your job type of thing. So Mhm. >> But definitely definitely a rabbit hole. Definitely something you can go way too far on. So >> for sure, for sure. Yeah, >> I'm just looking to hear other questions here. >> I'm just going to flip to my Emacs window here. Yeah. No, it's great to talk with somebody that kind of is of the same wavelength. So, it's just >> I saw your interview with um with Link Arzu. He's one of uh one of the buddies that I have online and I I was like >> that that was a good interview. So he's just kind of just coming at it from the Mac and and Neoim perspective but of the same persuasion. I think everybody's talking about about the same thing, right? So >> yeah. Yeah, that's the nice uh part of it that and I'm sure like this kind of outlook extends to other things like uh if we were to talk about other things eventually we would be like oh I am approaching it the same way. So, uh I think it's about people who are like-minded ultimately >> most >> and you can always find that common ground. >> The internet's a very interesting thing in that you could you could use it for the worst distractions ever or you could quite literally find people that are of that mindset, right? Which are >> I I mean I would say is it's difficult to find daytoday, right? So when you >> when you're able to put yourself out there, like you blog a ton, like your your site, you have almost daily posts, right? You're you're pretty open about who you are as a person and that allows people to find that their their people, right? Mhm. Mhm. So >> I think of blogging in that regard as putting a note in a bottle and you put the bottle in the ocean, you know, you leave it and the waves take it and then there is uh some other person and reads it and like oh there are others here as well, you know. Um I think of it that way. Um and it's an interesting way of approaching it where it's like I come to this without expectations >> but I might um make connections out of it. I might you know have people with whom we share something and I think that's a a nice part of it. It's a serendipity. I I liken it to shouting into the void. And I'm always surprised when somebody shows up in my e email inbox and says, "Thank you for this post," or something along those lines. I'm like, "Oh, people actually read this." >> So, I'm right there with you. It's It's not an it's there's no expectation with it. It's just kind of a way of expressing self, I suppose. and and with it that that just kind of opens you up to finding people that are of similar persuasion. At least at least that's my that's my uh that's my cope for writing online all the time. >> No, no, that's good. That's good. And also the internet now that you said it, it shows how we can use a tool like you can use a tool to empower you >> like what we are discussing now or you can use it to disempower you and to eventually destroy you and make you a shell of your own self >> an empty shell. And um it goes to show that if you have a certain level of awareness of okay why am I doing this >> then you will be doing it well eventually. >> So on that point what is your sentiment on the LLMs and AI stuff because obviously that is the big topic of discussion at least this week. Yeah, it's the same approach. Of course, I understand there are ethical considerations that people make and political political ethical >> and those are valid. Like for example, well, who owns the LLMs and is it right that they have effectively appropriated public data, public information? >> That's of course a valid question. But in so far as the tool goes, I think it's a matter of how you use it. Like you can use LLMs to just spit out text and you copy paste it mindlessly and you hope for the best. >> Yeah. >> Or you can use it as a way to augment your abilities like to do research and to uh understand something in greater depth and maybe automate some part that you have already thought uh through. Uh so it can be used uh for good work but it can also be used for stupid work. stupid word. >> It's really like that like when you get like I even saw this uh on a forum where uh on a forum you are football related forum soccer. >> Uh so somebody posted an LLM generated comment for a goal and I'm like my friend you are there to celebrate the sport. Why do you need to just copy paste this? Like just say it however you want. Nobody will check your English. >> Most definitely. And I think that there there's actually a there was a post on Hacker News yesterday and it was essentially don't share the output of the LLM. Just give me the prompt if you're going to do that. So instead of, you know, >> instead of writing me an email with LLM with the LLM, why don't you just send me the prompt that you use to write the email and I'll get the same response back. Right. So >> smart. >> Yeah. Do you use uh LLMs at all or is it part of your workflow or what? >> Uh no no not in earnest. I have used the Gemini CLI mostly to see what the F is about. Um but I haven't had a use case for it. Part of it is also that I enjoy figuring out the problem myself. Mhm. >> So I I had this experience with Gemini CLI where I'm like okay let's uh write this and I'm like okay implement this for me and it goes and it does it it didn't do it in a way that I like but I could have massaged it ultimately to do the right thing. >> Mh. >> But then I was like well I spent I don't know 30 minutes here now I have more free time of course but did I enjoy those 30 minutes? And I'm like, "No, I would rather spend two hours here to do it my way." And those would be two hours during which I would be thinking through the problems and figuring things out and ultimately I would be sharper as a result and have something that would work exactly the same way that I think of it. H that that is my sense of it as well is that specifically I do believe that mastery of craft is more important than ever right now like I think that >> if we go into a world where everything is AI generated for I mean let's say development right programming is the big conversation right now you're going to have nobody to maintain that if you have nobody that pursues mastery in that craft right like you're g you're not going to have the ability to make that anything more than it already was. Um, we saw it in like the no code movement and the drag and drop editors of, you know, yester year. You still need that person to that actually understands the underlying to be able to make it do what you actually really want it to do, right? So >> there was an interesting um take on this too is that um people liken LLMs to um I don't want to say a compiler but as a way to interact with the machine right and let's say I ask uh one of these LLMs to say hello world and I capitalize the H and I capitalize the W. It will reply with capital H, capital W, hello world. Okay, great. Now reply with hello world, lowercase H, uppercase W. Still replies with the capital W and H. >> Right? So effectively, you're not actually getting what you're asking for. You're getting a >> You see where I'm going with this? And and that that gap widens as you continually create with it, right? Yes. So by the end the end product is so vastly different than what you asked for >> that you might as well have just written it yourself. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then there is also the what I perceive at least is a certain asymmetry the asymmetry of effort where it's very easy to prompt it and get a lot of text a lot of code out of it. But if we are talking about code that is actually going to be used somewhere, the person who will review that code because of course ultimately somebody has to review it has to put in a lot of effort to understand it line by line. You cannot do a sloppy job there, >> right? uh so you spent I don't know 10 minutes and this other person will have to spend several hours maybe uh if we are talking about non-trivial code but that other person will now have the incentive to do the same namely okay let's have the LLM review it >> right >> and then of course eventually everybody does that and now you have a compounding effect of this asymmetry so eventually who maintains all that >> and of course the idea is that LLMs will be good enough have to eventually maintain everything themselves >> which remains to be seen. Maybe they will, maybe they won't and it will all come down crashing and then we will be wondering what happened. >> Yeah, most definitely. The thing too is there's no accountability if the machine makes the decision, right? So you know like a machine >> there was in the 80s with uh C++ there was an issue with I want to say it was um uh radiation machines uh for treating cancer and there was a uh a race condition in the code that was written that actually ended up killing some people right and because they got like 100x or 1,000x the radiation they were supposed to receive. If that is the world that we're moving into where nobody's accountable, what does that look like? Right? Because that actually is the potential here, right? You have programs that are flying airplanes, you have programs that are running electrical grids. Where's the accountability then if everything is just a AI generated? >> I don't know. Right. >> Yeah. And of course that's uh fundamental to our legal system as well. where it's like okay which is the source of the action and then who is the person that is held accountable for that like who has responsibility over it >> and then of course it diffuses responsibility so eventually nobody has it's like oh it happened >> right yeah it it's almost like the solution to the whole problem is to take responsibility is to pursue mastery is to do the opposite of the way that the world is is on a trajectory towards It seems I don't know if if I mean obviously you're living in a cabin in up in the uh the mountains so you've obviously kind of gone the opposite direction of you know the vast majority of people as well. When did that kind of solidify for you? When was it really like and I know that we're jumping all over with this interview, but it it's just like the way that my mind's working right now. >> One second. One second. Because the dogs are >> Oh, no. No worries. They heard the they heard the car. Yeah. >> So, there is a probably a hunter and of course they have dogs. I don't know if you can hear the dogs through the >> I can hear. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I have dogs. I'm familiar with it. So, all good. Um so the I started like it solidified I think since I first got here >> uh meaning like a decade ago where I because I came here with that express uh purpose where it's like to uh proceed through initiative and of course mastery goes with that because you have knowledge of what you are working with >> therefore you can do it yourself you don't have to wait for others to do it. You just you don't just say it would be nice if things were to happen kind of thing. It's like well it it is nice so therefore I will do it kind of thing. >> And that um that approach where it's like you know what I will have mastery I will acquire mastery over the art and then I will be empowered to act. That also changes how you approach the world in general where it's like I won't talk big because I know that actually doing it is not that simple. >> So I will talk or I will say stuff about the things that I am doing or that I can do and I have done. >> Mhm. >> And that also makes you uh more focused in what you are saying in your aspirations as well. And so you don't have the kind of wishful thinking that ultimately doesn't give you anything >> where it's like I don't wish something that I ultimately cannot achieve. >> So I'm not hoping for the planets to align kind of thing so that I get something >> right. And uh this also makes it uh so that you feel more uh you feel better about yourself like you have a certain confidence. Of course confidence can be faked because confidence like you can pump your chest and people think that is leadership. >> It's not like confidence is when you know that you can do the thing no matter what >> and no matter the setbacks you will still uh push through. And you build up that confidence when in one area you develop this expertise and then you can be like okay I did it for one thing I can start doing it for another thing and of course what I will say now will sound far-fetched and a little bit crazy but I think it is valid where >> I what I got out of Emacs where I'm like you know what I am not a programmer I not really the right person for this but somehow it. I made it work for me. This gives me confidence that I can actually do other things. And then I'm like, you know what? I have done a little bit of construction work. So, let's uh kick things up a notch and let's actually do the house here. So, >> I think it uh goes with that. I think if I didn't have the EMX experience, maybe I wouldn't do this either. I would be too afraid of it. I would be like, no, I cannot uh undertake such a task. H do you think there's some sort of grand conspiracy against the the simplification of things? Like do you know you know what I mean? Like they don't want you using Emacs because you might start building your own house type of thing. Like do do you see where I'm coming from? Like is there some sort of grander idea or is it just our own laziness? What would you say? >> Uh of course there could be conspiracy for everything. But the thing is that for many things that appear to be conspiracies, it's because people think alike >> and it's the alignment of this uh phenomenon where each person thinks similarly and then you think that they are all uh conniving right um where in reality it's just that they are independent. Of course, there can be conspiracy, but in this specific case, I think what happens is that the simple doesn't have a wow factor. >> Like you see Emacs, for example, like you launch Emacs, it's the ugliest thing ever. You're like, what am I doing here? Like >> this this is a disaster. This is straight from the 70s. >> Why is it white? >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And so you're like, you know what? I don't like this. >> Mhm. something that is complex uh has a wow factor because you're like oh this is so complex it's so elaborate it has to be sophisticated >> right >> so there is this um conflation between complexity and profoundity >> of course the complex can be profound but these are two different magnitudes and often times we think that the complex is profound >> and you also see that with people with how they talk where they will have a very professorial way of speaking with words that you have never heard before and you're like oh you know this guy he's up there he's really smart right >> when in reality you can say the same the same thing with simpler words and everybody will understand you and then you don't hide behind the complexity you don't hide behind the the jargon >> and of course you can employ the jargon when you are in a symposium or Sure. >> But otherwise you can talk uh you can employ plain spokenenness. You can talk straight and simple. And I think it's like that where if we appreciate the simple eventually then I think that gives us a different way into life, a different outlook. Hm. I I remember when I first started with Linux, I was like everything just doesn't look good, you know, like on its on its surface like Linux has a a a UI issue, right? But then you start to go down and you're like, oh, there's a reason why the primitives is all that matters, right? And it took me a few years to realize that and I was like, we could have so much more market adoption if we actually had just a very goodlooking OS, right? And it's like it's not about that. It's about the the underlying primitives, right? I don't know. It's just a silly anecdote for me, but I just remember being like, we could have 25% market share if we just looked better. >> Yes. Yes. Which is of course a safe assumption. I think that is actually true. Like just making something look better will make it more attractive. But now it's not more attractive because people appreciate its value proposition. It's like it's more impressive, >> right? >> But that's a surface level quality. So um there is a a saying in Greek I I think I said that in a recent video where it translates as follows. Wind gatherings, wind scatterings. >> Mhm. >> So the idea is easy come easy go >> right. >> So of course you can easily attract a lot of people with the bling but you will easily lose those same people. >> True. Because those aren't really your target market anyway, right? like that wasn't the person that you actually wanted using Emacs in the first place. It the people that want you want using Emacs are the people that dive into using it and they're like, "Oh, well, like the utility of this is effectively infinite when it comes to compute, right?" And I I guess that is truly it it's almost like it's not a filter, but it also is a filter, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what happens eventually is that this kind of uh group, this sort of person is the person who will um likely contribute to Emacs. >> It's the person who will be like, "Oh yeah, let me look at the code here. Let me understand Emacs list a bit better." And before you know it, this person already has like 10 packages >> and I'm talking to him right here. >> Yeah. Or Yeah. In that case, even more packages. No doubt. Would you say that you have like I don't want to say like identify with a philosophy, but would you say that you have like a like a worldview that you would say that you identify with? I suppose I don't know how to ask that question. I >> um I look I if we want to be really technical I would say no because then you have to say okay so you agree with everything that school has said. So in that sense I would say no. But >> um >> for the sake of the discussion I would say my philosophy my worldview in general can be described in two ways. One is the cynics uh so the the original cynics not how the term is used nowadays. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So the cynics of ancient Greece and the other is the pocratic philosophers. Uh so the prescratics basically have this view of the world as a whole and basically what we said earlier like well it's all one it's all connected right >> uh there is this idea >> and uh then the cynics are more focused on the human experience >> and there there is this um way of approaching the human experience which is the simple things like what are the essentials And um of course you may have heard of the Oenis or Dioenist is how they pronounce it in English. Dioenist. And he's kind of a meme figure a little bit where he would do provocative stuff in public. >> Um which of course you may say okay I don't share that feeling. I wouldn't do that. But what he was trying to say is that well all this complexity all these elaborate rules of custom that you have here dear Athenians all this etiquette >> you can actually live without it like ultimately it doesn't contribute to anything it's just a shadow plate just a show and he was trying to make that point by ridiculing that etiquette. >> Mhm. Of course uh underlying that is the idea is that well you can live simply it it comes down to that. So cynicism is like be honest with yourself and then be honest with others and once you are honest with yourself it's like well what do I really need? >> And then of course you will find that you don't need all that much. Dioynes is the Alexander the Great too or Alexander the Great saw Diagenes sitting and um Dioynes told him to get out of his out of the way of the of the sun or whatever and Alexander replied with if I was not Alexander I would be Dioynes. Is that correct? Is that who we're talking about? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the anecdote. Yes. >> I love that anecdote. Yeah. >> Um in Greek it's even better because so Dioynes was big with puns. uh so saying something that can be interpreted in two ways and it was also funny and stuff. So Alexander at that time he was trying to unify the Greeks. So the Greeks were never one state. It was always city states uh in war with each other >> and Alexander was about to unify the Greeks to eventually launch a campaign against the Persian Empire. Now the Oenis knows that what happens is that well we will depose one tyrant and we will install a new one in instead. >> Mhm. >> So what the Aenis is telling Alexander is in Greek it says actually I'm not sure I'm saying it right now like um aposcottis me which means remove the darkness from me. uh where it's like so don't >> uh usher in an era of darkness. >> Interesting. >> Much deeper than like the the surface level. That's very interesting. I I've never heard that. >> Yeah. So, it's like be a force for good basically. And yeah, don't uh bring darkness like you just did by standing in front of me. >> Standing in front of me, blocking the sun. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Very interesting. Yeah. Like I I can definitely see how western thought effectively evolved over essentially, you know, 4,000 years, 6,000 years probably. But everybody's talking about the same thing and and you just have like slight revelations up to Yeah. like effectively the the Stoics and then um into the Western world. It was essentially Christianity, right? Western world was was essentially pushed into that world. And it it's interesting that as you progress, everybody is talking of the same >> like the logos, right? Like they're talking of the same thing. They just are describing it differently, I would say. >> And then it's mostly a difference in emphasis or like okay, what do I want to focus on? And I think it's important to understand this broad view of the world where indeed there is consistency throughout and once you understand that you can appreciate what effectively is the divine you can appreciate this uh idea that well it's everywhere. It's not like in a special place >> or in a certain kind of arrangement where there are gatekeepers and only a select few can access the divine like it's around us. It's everywhere and it's a matter of basically getting out of your head to see what is out there or what is in front of you for that matter and appreciating that and then the depth of that what we were saying earlier >> is infinite. >> Yeah. Does Emacs lead to the divine? >> Well, in a sense, yes. >> In a sense, yes. Once you appreciate that it is inexhaustible, >> like you cannot complete it like there is no end. So it's inexhaustible and then of course the the teachings from that you will have to generalize and apply them to the world around you and then again you will observe the same patterns over and over. >> It is very interesting that I've seen like because I obviously converse with people in this space and the philosophy around it it essentially re leads again to the same place. I know we keep saying that, but it's it's it's very interesting to me that you could take people from all walks of life, you put them in front of a a Unix machine that you're pursuing simplicity with, and the ultimate end that that leads to is effectively divine. It's it's very interesting to me, but I've seen it numerous numerous times. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is like that. And through the simple you get to the universal because of course it's everywhere, right? But it also connects with what we were saying earlier about the autoiduct and the idea that well you don't need to have a PhD whatever. So to to be of a certain elite uh to access that to partake in that >> like it's there it's readily available and I think that is special and that ultimately goes to show that we are all in that regard uh able to participate >> and it's not like oh a special one can participate. H one thing that was mentioned in the IRC when I had said that I was hopping on with you is uh guy said to say thank you very much for all the cont contributions that you've made to the Emacs world and to also be they also said it's tremendously inspiring to see somebody that is self-taught climb up that world and because it actually does make you feel like it's something that hey I can do this too and that I can contribute I can I can help build this this amazing thing. So, uh that's that was what I forgot to mention was everybody was like tell him thank you. Don't even ask him questions. Just tell him thank you. >> Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. And of course, this also is due to the community aspect of it. And it's like this is the nice part of Emacs where there is synergy between the underlying principles the free software values of Emacs and how it works where it's like Emacs is introspectable and that is the other way of saying Emacs is free software >> but these blend together and there is a community around it that shares those principles and works with those uh functions right with introspectability and all So what you effectively have is an extended network of knowledge >> and of paradigms and of ideas. And so just by reading around or by reading other people's configurations and packages you gain insight into their thinking processes and eventually you learn from them and it's like you are standing on the shoulders of giants. It's not even a cliche at that point. It's like well I am actually learning from them >> right. Yeah, it it's something that like I don't know how to describe it, but it it does make you feel this overwhelming sense of um interconnection of of gratitude that you're just like, I'm I'm building on something that 50 years in the making is still relevant today because we were pursuing those first principles because we wanted the user to be empowered, right? We wanted the end user to actually be able to uh understand and realize what their potential is. And and for me that is I I don't know it's it's very cool. It is very cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. And through Emacs actually um you flesh out the free software values because of how effectively accessible it is. Granted there is the learning curve but once you get uh past that initial awkward phase which is let's say three weeks okay but that initial awkward phase where nothing quite works the key bindings are awful and you hate your life for it but >> for some people it's three years >> granted but after that it's like okay that's great now I I can actually uh participate like I get it now and now I am a part of this community. >> You've inspired me to start releasing packages. Brock, I will you're going to hold me to it. >> But this year, this year I'm going to release a package >> maybe to Melpa. Do you use Melpa or what's the the distribution? So, so Melpa is where the modus themes were originally published >> but then I moved to GNUpa because I made the I I did the copyright assignment to the free software foundation. >> Okay. >> So then legally the packages can be on GNUpa and I have them there. >> Gotcha. Okay. But ultimately I should say that the package archive doesn't really matter that much anymore because built into Emacs is package vc install this function. Uh where basically you can install a package from source with regular emacs vanilla emacs. You don't need another package manager. Of course there are others that you can use >> and then what this means is you just uh install any package from a g repository >> and that's h good. Yeah, >> I've seen it in the Nyx world too. I'm I'm not sure if you're super familiar with it, but by adding flakes to repositories, like you effectively I don't always say circumvent the package distributors, but you actually have the ability to exactly what you're saying, just literally install a git repo into your environment, which is it's kind of it's kind of interesting to see the world going in that direction where it's it's um I don't want to say that the powers that be with the package repositories because they're very open and such, but you almost just go around that entirely and it it the the friction is almost non-existent at that point. >> Of course, it's also a matter of responsibility because when you have something that the package maintainer has pieced together, you're like, okay, they know what they are doing. They did the work, but then you're like, okay, I want to do it myself. So, of course, if it breaks, it's on me. Exactly. It goes back to taking responsibility, right? It goes back to >> everything just comes full circle >> and this is what we were saying like we can talk about any random topic uh deeply enough and then we can say okay this applies in that other topic which is unrelated. >> It's super true. How are you for time by the way? >> H I'm good. So I have um cleared my schedule. So yeah >> fantastic. Do you have anything else that you want to talk about with me? Anything else that kind of was top of mind? Those are like all my questions. I mean, I obviously I go into inter like I don't want to say interviews, just conversations with no real agenda. I just want to obviously flesh out who somebody is and just have a conversation with them. So yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Tell me tell me then about your Emacs experience. So this package. >> Yes. like what is the idea like what would you want to have in your emac that you don't have right now and you are working towards >> so >> like the big picture of course don't >> yeah yeah big picture I mean I've I've kind of started on this already and I I have like it's on GitHub but it's not like packaged or anything like that and what it is is like a you're familiar with ROI I'm sure with like the the launcher and everything so I've built that functionality into a uh essentially a buffer that pops up and you're able to not just pick programs but also uh go through all the buffers that are open in your Emacs because I've I've really gone on the train of using Emacs effectively as my computer my compute environment. I want everything to be as interconnected without going to the uh the exwms of the world. Uh although there is a Wayland apparently there is a Wayland um introduction of it that may be very interesting. Um but yeah like essentially a program launcher but also buffer searcher um ability to like rip GP through the current uh directory that you're in. um all of that essentially built into one keybind so that you just start you hit it and you just start typing and you're able to access wherever you really need to be on the computer. I have it so that you can also access like if you have like a a Firefox window or your your browser on a a different workspace, you could easily easily just switch over to that. I want to get it to the point where you could actually switch to like a tab within that which would be super nice. Um, so yeah, just kind of like I call it the universal launcher, but I mean that's just a working term right now. Um, something along those lines. I know that there's other projects Omni something or other that does similar stuff, but it's just something that I've >> Yeah. been cooking on on for some time as the kids say. >> No, no. Oh, that's very cool. That's very cool. And of course, Rafie is a very good uh program to try to learn from. Yeah. like a excellent P program. >> It's so extensible too, right? Like you can bring in so many different things with it like your password manager and your um like you can bring a calculator into it and all that different stuff. I'm I'm sure people saw like uh the spotlight on Mac and like they're like let's just take this to the next level. Let's just do everything >> that you can possibly do with it. So >> yeah. Yeah, that's very useful. And of course, Emacs has the tools for that. Like >> uh I think ROI effectively is what the D menu is at its core. I mean meaning is you pass it a list and it displays it and then you select from that which is what the EMAC's completing read function is fundamentally >> and yeah that's very nice. Um I don't know if you have looked into this maybe you have done it already but uh the completion metadata >> okay completion >> so so um actually there is a function called I think it's called completion metadata but maybe I'm wrong right now but what the idea is this not only you can have the functionality that you described but you can also have um custom annotations >> custom grouping >> okay >> and yeah that adds to uh how you can um use it and it's quite useful. >> Yeah, like I've I I've kind of done that but not with I'm going to look into that function because like for example I have um different org files with bookmarks for uh sites that I've previously visited or um like notes or something like that, right? And you can actually group those by um whatever you want to within the the the list that I've written so far. But that's I'm going to look into this for sure. >> So there is so the completion metadata. There is an annotation function. >> There is an affixation function it's called. There is a group function and there is one more I want to say and I forget which one it is but definitely look into that. It's a really fascinating, really interesting. >> Okay. Have you have you done the exwm like try to make Emacs your computer type of thing or >> No, no, no, I didn't. Um, the reason is that I don't see really the upside of it like I because you will have programs that are not really Emacs programs like they don't fall in line exactly. So having a Firefox in a buffer, it's like an indirection. I don't think it's the same thing as as having like an actual browser in Emacs, >> right? >> And then I was concerned about the stability of it where Emacs of course daytoday works fine, but if you try to do too many things with it, it can be uh slow like it it is blocking. >> Yeah. So, I wouldn't want, for example, to be doing a video like this and then for whatever reason, the whole system comes down. >> Yeah. No, I'm with you on that. And it's it's my main reason that I've never gone that route is the the single threaded nature of Emacs being blocking, right? So, if I'm updating my L feed, sometimes it even blocks and I'm like, ah, you know, so something like that when I'm exactly recording video or something like that, it's that is probably the the thing that really limits it. But I mean having meta X everywhere on your system that's kind of nice. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is nice. It is nice for sure. But for example with ROI um you get the equivalent of uh switching buffers now without doing anything else where you can select a window and it will switch to the workspace where that window is. It just works. >> Yeah. >> Uh so and of course you can launch programs and stuff. So it's not quite there. It's not exactly like the Emacs experience, but you can get pretty close. It is also there is >> Yeah, there there's also the thing of depends also on how much you work outside of ebooks, I guess. >> Like me, I use uh the web browser for relatively few things. >> So, it's not essential for me to have like all the Emacs commands in there. And I don't do text editing in the web browser, for example. it will always be just reading or watching a video or something. >> Uh so for me having Emacs in the browser won't really change my browser experience. >> Yeah, that has been really the the um limiting factor for me is like the the hanging and everything and and I agree with you. I think that you don't want Emacs to become everything everything like you want it to do as the best thing that it's best at which is obviously text, right? But as soon as you go video editing and because I know there's there's a video editor that Emacs has potentially, right? Like there's there's all of these different things that you could potentially use it for, but is that the best use case for it? Probably not. And um I mean I'm maybe I'm just not a purist. Maybe I'm just not dogmatic enough or something, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm with you on that. Yeah. Because for me, ultimately, Emacs is a tool. >> Mhm. >> Like, and of course, it's an amazing tool and all that, but the litmos test is well, does it do the job well, >> right? >> And if I have to shoehorn it into workflows and then it's not a nice experience, I'm like, yeah, like it's not its place here. Like, it should be doing something else. No, most definitely. Uh, I'm gonna ask you one final question, I guess, like what what books, what sources, what would you ex what would you recommend somebody read to >> kind of align with your philosophy and and go in that direction? I'll leave it at that. >> Ah, okay. Okay. Um, I don't think that's actually helpful like aligning with my philosophy. And I will see why because >> um your experiences in life will condition you to certain things like you will be sensitive to some uh aspects of the world and not others. And I think what is actually better for you is to discover that which works for you >> and not so much um emulate somebody else. That granted always go to the sources. Um, for example, you want to read Aristotilian philosophy, read Aristotal. Don't actually read some scholar who has comments on Aristotle. Not because a scholar is bad, mind you, but because you will get exactly what Aristotal says. And even if you don't understand everything, that's okay. It shows that um you have different experiences. So read something uh else and see if that resonates with you and continue reading until something clicks and there is that but it's not just the books. Um apply it like live accordingly because of course you can read like a library and ultimately do nothing with it. But uh on the other hand you can read few books but apply those lessons and then of course you have a different life altogether. So whatever you are reading uh that has an application in real life test it out and be like okay can I actually do this uh or is this just a boutique view of the world like a pritified picture of the world that ultimately is inapplicable because if it's just that what's the point like it's a it's an interesting exercise it's it sounds a smart it fascinates you to think about but if it doesn't extend to a lifestyle to something that you can actually live with I think ultimately you can ignore it and move to the next thing. Uh so yeah there is that but in if you want now books I would say read platon read Aristotellis uh read also other more contemporary thinkers I think um Thomas Hobbes the Leviathan is excellent because you will understand a lot about human nature and yeah there are many others of course I always blank when it comes to books I will forget how to >> it's always putting people on the spot >> two books actually that are interesting also is um the analct of confucious and dao de jing so from laoi. So these are pillars of the Chinese philosophy and um what I like especially about those is um they are different like la da de jing will give you what we discussed here this idea that all is one right >> uh and then you start thinking in those terms what confucious does on the other hand is it gives you those little snippets that apply tie to everyday life. >> But and this is the final point. If you don't experience everyday life, confusious makes no sense >> because you cannot connect the dots. But if you are out there and observing the phenomena and observing what people are doing and what is happening to you and if you are introspective and then you read something like confusious then you're like ah okay I see now the depth. So touch grass is what prod is saying >> uh always >> I think I did a video I actually wrote a blog post recently where I was saying like yeah ultimately what the doctor should tell you is touch ground. >> Yeah >> it's >> go for walks >> get into nature >> put it uh to work put it to the test. It's like that and actually just to say on touch grass because we have this uh experience with the internet and the computers and all that it's easy to get a distorted view of the world because the internet has the tendency to amplify the extremes. So you get a a meme view of the world. >> And um what happens then is that will um intensify also your emotional response pro or against which means that you will not be calm, you will be agitated, you will be disturbed, you will be upset, you will be demoralized and depleted eventually. >> Whereas going out there you will see that things are not as extreme. they are not as sharp and ultimately that is more relaxed. >> I I'm 100% with you on reading primary sources too. I feel like you you could actually have a conversation with the person that wrote the primary source as opposed to having a conversation with somebody that's had a conversation with the person that wrote the primary source. You know what I'm saying? >> Yes. And I I feel like that's a bit of um I guess I don't want to say a shortcoming, but just something of the the modern world where everybody's writing books about the great books. Maybe we should just be reading the great the great books, right? >> Yes. Yes. And what will help complement that study is to also try to understand um the living conditions of those people. Like for example, I mentioned hobbs. Well, try to read about the history of England during that time >> to get a sense of uh what is this person in their historical context. And the reason I'm saying this because you mentioned stoicism earlier for example. >> Mh. It helps to understand what kind of life they had so that you can better appreciate the insights because if you decouple the thinker from their context, you are basically doing the thinker a disservice. It's like, well, if I was living in a different era, I would be saying different things maybe, >> right? >> Yeah. >> No, that's that's very interesting. Um, thank you so much for hopping on a call with me. like this was this was fantastic. I I I hope to do it again in the future if if you're available. So, >> yeah. Yeah, I would be happy to. Yeah, I had a good time. Thank you. >> No, this was this was fantastic. Anything else that you want to you want to say or >> No, no, I just want to say to encourage everybody and you as well to Yeah, give it a try like with packages and stuff that do it. And the Emacs uh way to life like the lifestyle of Emacs is be unapologetic about your choices and if it works for you that's all that matters like don't try to get validation like hey guys what should I be using we don't know just use what works for you >> right >> and take it from there >> so touch grass be unapologetic use Emacs thank you so much pro thank you so much for the Oh, this is fantastic. >> You're welcome. You're welcome. Take care. Take care, Joshua. Bye-bye. And good luck with everything. >> Thank you so much, Bro. Take care. Bye-bye.

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