“He KNEW!” - Epstein Survivor: Hollywood Trafficking, NYC Mansion & Les Wexner | Lisa Phillips • 398

Yeah. >> So you four months later after all this, this was the one where you it got put on the schedule that you were going to meet with him. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And you were already at Ford at this point. >> Yeah. No, it was a Ford model. >> Now you're at Ford, so he had made that call. >> Mhm. >> So you you see his name on the schedule, you know, you're like, well, I guess I got to go. What's your what's your initial reaction though? like oh or like >> well I just remember calling my agent to say like I didn't want to go >> and I think well I think she made a call to make to probably Katie forward just to see but I remember her saying oh I have to go you know he has connections with secret and things like that so I think you need to go and remember at the time I didn't know how close the agency owner was to Epstein I had no idea they were sending each other girls um I just thought well that's funny why would I have to go see that guy Right. >> Um, but I went and I I went to that upper east side mansion, knocked on that big door and walked right in and and >> there wasn't like a moment where you're like, I'm really about to do this or were you just kind of like, they told me I have to do this, I'm going to do this? Um, of course, there was that thought, you know, and I know what happened on the island, so I was nervous about it, but I just thought, "Oh, well, he helped me to get into the agency. They said he was great, you know, and she said, "Oh, I love Jeffrey, you know, he's a good guy." And all that stuff. So, I thought, "Okay, he's a good guy now." So, now in my head, he did something for me. He's a good guy. >> And so, I went and met with him and I had a really, really great conversation with him for about an hour. I talked to him about all sorts of things. and you know laughed and like you know talked about my real goals and ambitions again and um gave me >> Did he answer the door? >> No. No. No. >> Someone else answers, right? >> No. Like the the butler. The butler answered the door. >> Juan Allessie. >> Probably was Juan. >> Okay. >> It probably was Juan. If not, I can't remember who answered the door the first time. It wasn't. It was probably one of the maids. >> Okay. >> But they let you in and they seat you in the room until you're ready to go up the stairs into his office. >> Okay. So, so they take you up, escort you to the office, and that's where you have this hourlong conversation. What the second you walked in there before you have this good conversation that I do want to hear more about, like >> you see him for the first time, what's what's the feeling like deep breath. Um, he made me feel really comfortable right off the bat. So um I felt comfortable with him I think again like the initial meeting um just had like a really good conversation with him just about life again goals you know um thanked him for in introducing me to Katie and becoming a Ford model and he asked a lot of questions about that and you know what kind of events and things I was going did I know a lot of models and he definitely wanted to know like you you know, um, how much Iworked and how many people I knew and just how like deep I was in the mingling business and knew people, which I knew a lot of people then. Um, and so I think that was kind of exciting for him that I knew a lot of other young girls. Um, and we just had like a really good I just remember a really good conversation and he was on the phone with um, a really important person and so he made it a point to let me know like who he was on the phone with. I could hear him talking and >> and you're not going to say who that was. >> Well, he was like a billionaire at the time and I knew who he was. >> It recently came out in the files. >> You know, so I heard him talking to him. >> Hey guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe. It's a huge, huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link in my description or in the pin comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below. >> Um, and then he told me like a little secret about him. And so he was trying to make me feel like really comfortable, you know? Um, it's kind of like I was in like one of him, one of his people or, you know, he was really good. So it was just a really good conversation. So, >> I thought I thought at the time that that was going to be it. I thought that was it. So, I kind of like got >> You thought you'd never see him again after that? >> Well, I don't know. I just thought that was it. I thought, "Well, that was great. Thank you, you know, for everything you did for me. Wonderful." Like just wanted to get out of there. Um, and then I just kind of like got my bag and stuff all ready and I tried to like get out of there and he just was like, "No, where are you going?" And then does it clock back like, "Oh [ __ ] this is now going to be >> he was like, "Let's do a massage." >> Just like that. >> Mhm. >> What goes through your head when he says that? >> I didn't really have time to think cuz he was right out the door to the massage room. So there goes the next massage. So that's when I had the next massage, which was exactly like the first one without the girl. I I can't really. This is one of those situations where you want to try to like put yourself in the shoes of someone like that. And I guess I'm happy to say I can't. But like I wonder if just the fact that you walk through the door considering it was 4 months later, he had already abused you. Now he had you had a job because of him. He was put on the schedule and you walked on your own valition to his place. He was like gotcha. Like I I can't think of another way to is that how you describe it? >> The only thing that I know is the fact that I saw someone really important. He was not allowed to let me out of that orbit. I was not allowed to be free without me thinking he was a good a good guy that I would never turn on him or talk about him, >> you know? So, I just feel like there was a reason why it keeps you in that orbit. And so, the massage, whether he was getting off on me or not, I think has to be done because that's the way of keeping you silent again. Cuz I don't understand why he wouldn't just let me leave. Like why would he have to? I mean, we know now that he abused that exact way I'm explaining to you. Six to eight times a day with with different girls. Six to eight times a day. >> Yeah. >> He was jacking off two girls six to eight times a day. >> And that's what he that's what he liked. So, um I don't really know why he he wanted to do those things to me. And I really don't know why he didn't always do it, but that time he definitely did. So same thing when it was over. Just kind of like we're done. >> Yeah. Grab your stuff and leave. When you walk out of there, is it the same kind of I don't know, frozen type feeling you had the first time? Like just literally right over again, or is there anything different this time? >> Well, it's just confusing because it's an actual real massage, right? It's not like, let me just pull this girl in here and just rape her, you know? It's like an actual massage. Like, he's really teaching you how to do a darn massage. Like, he really needs a massage six, eight times a day. And then he has to like it's his thing, you know? Yeah, but I mean it's that's just like it's something entirely different though. Like it may start that way, okay, but then he's turning that into something that's not a massage. It's it's pure rape, but you're not there's something in your head where you're kind of like normalizing the fact, well, it is a massage. >> No, I would definitely know it was a violation of my body. Um, but it just I can't even answer to you why. Um, didn't I couldn't feel like I could leave or scream or do anything, you know? I just was just hoping I'd never have to see him again. That's always what I was hoping I would leave and never have to see him again. And it's crazy too because you know as a as a podcaster too like yourself I've interviewed a lot of Larry Nassar survivors >> and my god their abuse is is the exact same thing. >> Jewish guy who treats them like oh you know this is like our little secret you know you know I'm helping you out you know here's little snacks you know like trying to get on their good side while he lays them on a table and abuses them the same way he's a digital abuser. He never had sex with them. He uses fingers and tools in their body, you know, and they were they were just as confused as too. And the Epstein survivors say, "Oh, is he doing these creepy massages to you?" And the Larry Nassar gymnasts are like, "Is he is he is he is he doing the same medical procedure to you, too." You know, that they can tell is creepy and not right, too. But everyone knows it's creepy. Everyone knows it's not right. Everyone knows he's violating you, but nobody says like, "This is an assault. This is abuse." Nobody can even say those words. I never did. They never did. You know, and it's like it's the exact same type of abuse they get away with because they get off on that. They have control over you. Um but nobody knows how to identify it. And it's it comes with massive confusion. >> Yeah. >> So when I leave, I'm like confused. The guy talked to me for an hour. He's like a mentor. He shared little secrets to me about soand so. Like >> he got me with an agency. Like I I like all these things. And then I'm like, well, maybe maybe it's not so bad, you know, and and I would just justify it like, well, [ __ ] maybe that's just what we have to go through as women, you know, you know that we don't have autonomy. We don't have we don't have like anything over our body to say like, "No, leave me alone. Get off me." It's like almost really really difficult to say something like that when you're in those situations. But you're pretty quickly like I don't want to say not rationalizing, but when you're trying to like understand what's going on, you that's a thought that's coming in where you're like, well, I guess I just don't have control. >> Exactly. Yeah. I think most of the time you feel like when you're groomed, you don't have control. I feel like if he just dragged me off the street Yeah. I think that would fight back and things, but I think after you're groomed for an hour and then it's a massage and then it's the assault, then it's like this whole thing of like, wait a second, what just happened? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And that's his MMO. That's how he abused, you know, the majority of these girls. You know, one of the things we don't know a ton about to this point, and maybe some people out there, if if you've unearthed it, you can share evidence in in the comments. I'd love to review it. But we don't know a hell of a lot about Jeffrey Epstein's childhood. We know he grew up in Coney Island. He had two parents. He had a brother, but we don't know of any like life experiences he had and stuff like that. So if I assumed for a second that he was not someone who himself was abused a bunch because there are prolific abusers out there who weren't abused. They just get off on this kind of thing and do it. Where do you think that ability to psychologically manipulate people like that comes from? >> It's a really good question. I would I would think he would have had to have learned it from someone. I don't know if it's a family member, you know, or something you watch on TV. I don't I just don't know. I mean, it takes years to get to that stage. I don't think it just happens overnight, >> you know, but probably, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there, seeing how you can get over people, how easy it is to manipulate, and then, you know, just working your way up the ladder. You can manipulate someone at, you know, the high school, then you can manipulate someone in finance, then you can manipulate someone in government, you can manipulate, you know, young girls are pretty easy. So, um, he used to always say like 25, 26, you know, that's when the brains developed. So, he never went over 20, 25, 26, >> you know. >> Oh, he would say it like that. >> Young Yeah. Yeah. girls brain develops at 25 26. They would never ever even >> because you can't have any it's very very difficult to manipulate a woman when she's hit 26 years old. They're just, you know, have a different way of thinking and a worldly view and it's harder, you know, >> unless you had pre-existing manipulation with them. >> I mean, you can manipulate anyone at any age. You can be 50, 60 and manipulate. We see that happen all the time. >> I understand. But but it's just easier when you're younger obviously because it's you know you look up to adults you want to believe >> you want to believe them and you trust them and >> and if you're making an assault on you look like it's nothing >> you know uh then sometimes it just becomes like oh it's nothing >> and in that one-hour conversation he really did make you feel like oh he's like kind of a mentor >> and I was special >> flipped you and you were special. What what about not even necessarily something specific with what he said, but what about how he was talking with you made you feel special? >> Well, the fact that I was even able to become a Ford model made me feel very special. That was very it was super not easy to become a Ford model. >> Um, you know, I had worked so hard many, many years to even get to that stage. >> And he's no idiot. He's not sending off some girl at random girls to Ford Modeling agency. you have to actually be able to get signed to that agency. It's special enough to sit in front of him for that hour, you know, and get the best advice in the world. Basically, he advises, you know, billionaires and the tops of government, and I'm getting the best advice, you know, really, really good advice. I still use to this day. >> Like what? just business, you know, I was able to form and build businesses and um be successful in everything that I wanted to do probably from a lot of things that he taught me. I mean, he sat there and taught me things. It wasn't just like surface conversation. >> Do you have a not to put you on the spot, but do you have like a specific example maybe with as it relates to running a business or something like that that taught you? Um, well, I guess I could, but I'll tell you something that he used to say to me with men. He used to cuz he used to send me on auditions and when I would come back from the audition, I would disappoint him like if I didn't do anything with the director or I didn't get the part and he would say, "Oh, that's just the way Hollywood works. You have to just um, you know, let the guy think you're going to sleep with him. You don't have to actually sleep with him, but just you know, you know, you know, flirt with him a little bit, put your hand on your on his knee, you know, be a little bit like aggressive, but don't have to go there because they can't sleep with everybody, you know what I mean? So, he would say, "Oh, you [ __ ] up." Cuz uh like a lot of times he would send me on these auditions and he'd want to know every little thing, every little thing that happened or was said, you know, cuz he wanted to have these things on people and how they operated and how they were. Were they straight up like invite you to dinner and then slowly assault you or do they straight off assault you? like he wanted to know everything. So he would try to tell you how to be with a man, but also to get ahead like in your career and in business and things. So um also he would tell me about businesses that were coming up that women could um whatever you were interested in, he would tell you, you know, how to manipulate those situations to get uh your career. Like I had friends that were in the art world and friends that were wanting to be like TV hosts and things like that and he definitely showed them how to like manipulate it so they could become successful. That's why there's many women today who are extremely successful who were uh knew Epstein when they were younger. Does it feel weird that a guy so evil I don't even really know how to say this, but like so evil just as like an aside to all the evil [ __ ] he did would give people like you something that you might actually still use to this day. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, he was evil. >> The people around him were very evil. >> Yeah. as you can see in the files. You know, there was a lot of evil uh going on. >> Um I'm not sure if he was giving me evil advice. I think it was just like business business advice, you know? I I don't know. I see it as just business advice. I don't think there was anything like that was nefarious for me to like swindle my way through. But >> that's what I was saying. I should have said that more clearly. What I'm saying is he's an evil guy. He does all this evil stuff and that's who he is. And then just as a part of his manipulation tactics on the periphery, he might happen to throw you a bone of a good piece of business advice. >> He told me if you go for any job, the fact that you're a Ford model, you will get called in every time. So you make your resume, put at the top that you were a Ford model, he said every single um job that you go for with your resume, you'll get called in. >> Right. >> And it's so funny that it's so funny now because I'll look at resumes from people that I know knew him. I'll look at their resumes that have come up in the files and it says they were a Ford model >> right at the top. >> So he was given this advice out, you know, so just little things like that, you know, that I picked up on, you know, that you would listen to from any mentor, >> right? >> You know, it doesn't have to be a mentor that's abusing you. A mentor of mentor, you know, is giving you life advice because he's not going to speak on anything but >> real things, you know. Um, yeah. I don't know if I'm like proud of any of that, but I mean, I'm no stupid girl. If I'm going to sit there for an hour with somebody, I'm going to get like the best information, you know, because that was the part of making me feel comfortable enough for an hour later to do what he wants to do. >> And also the point you make about putting the billionaire on speaker, someone you would know, >> and like showing you, hey, I can even tell you about this guy. You can listen in on him. What do you think I can tell? It's like psychologically, what do you think I can tell about you to other people? >> And you know what's so crazy too? In the files, some of the sneak secrets that he told me, I I could see it's like validation. >> Yes. >> In the files, it's like, okay, wow, that was true and that was true. I don't believe there was anything that man said to me that wasn't true. >> Anything? >> No. I I really don't believe he was bullshitting on anything. I think almost everything I think everything he said was true. Yeah. I don't really see why he had a lie. I mean, the manipulation, but the manipulation wasn't in the lies. And the manipulation was just like he always came through on what he said he would do for you. >> I have girlfriends that went through four years of university through him, >> you know, got their jobs through him, things like that. >> So, he would keep his promises and stuff like that. >> Cuz he can. >> Cuz he can. >> Yeah. He's not like, let's take let's take like the the mediocre pedophiles and predators out there. They they give you pro false promises, right? and they get you in and then they can't keep you much longer because they're always false promises because they have no leverage and no power. This man had all the power in the world, you know, to get what he wanted. That's why he could get these beautiful young women and, >> you know, and make all these things happen for them. And then, you know, the leverage of the underage girls in Florida, I mean, what was their leverage? They're in high school, so it's just money, you know, for their family. $200 or $300 for their family goes a really long way. >> And he would go after poor girls around there, too. Yeah. Who had parents that were in jail or drug addicted parents. I know a lot of them, >> you know, and they have like major trauma from all this >> horrific trauma. >> No, I mean, I can't even >> I think the trauma comes worse for most girls when it had to do with Gain because it was a woman. >> Oh, cuz it was just cuz it was a woman. >> Well, because kind of you can expect, you know, someone like Jeffrey Epstein to abuse you. You're he's older man. What else does he want you around for? But the older woman, like, what is she doing? Why is she pulling in young girls? Why are you doing that to young girls? >> Not many women do that. >> You kind of have to be a monster >> to go. >> She's a monster. >> Yeah. To go looking for hundreds of girls and then, you know, giving it to him, giving giving you over to him and then also participating, >> you know. >> Yes. There's a big difference, as I said, than a Sarah Cullen, in my opinion. Someone who's probably in her 20s, who was abused, you know, who turns and maybe made wrong choices. Of course, she made wrong choices, but Galin is on a whole different level. >> Yes. >> You know. >> Yeah. And it's, you know, it's also all the people around though cuz it's a similar type of psychological question to ask like what I asked with Sarah, but did you ever hear the two podcast series that Tara Pel Mary did back in 2020? >> One was like the Maxwells, the other one was Epstein. >> So Virginia went around with her. >> Yeah. And in one of the podcast series, it's literally like a documentary just recorded, but they go to usually the gated communities of different people who were associated with Jeffrey Epstein and say, "Hey, it's Virginia Robert Shuay with you remember me and I'm with this reporter tower pulary. Can we come in?" And a lot of people wouldn't let them in. >> Yeah. >> Like the chef Adam Perry Lang was like, "Oh, I remember you Virginia through an emissary, but I can't meet with you." M >> the guy Wana Allessie let them in. >> Mhm. The driver >> the I guess he was like the housekeeper. >> I I it's been a while. People go I I actually do need to go listen to that podcast again because I cited a lot. So I I will do that after this. But >> he not only let them in, he agreed to let Tara record it. >> Mhm. And I always say it's one of the most difficult things to listen to from like a human perspective because you feel a million emotions for this guy. >> You feel anger that he didn't say anything. >> You feel >> empathy for the fact that he was >> an immigrant who signed this crazy NDA with these powerful people and then felt pressured to not say anything. You feel weird that he's sitting with Virginia, who he clearly not only remembered and knew, but liked a lot >> and viewed her as a real person, >> and yet you're angry at him because he turned a blind eye >> to this stuff. I mean, there's so much going on. >> Yeah, but what power did he have to say anything back then? >> That's my question. It's like >> wound up dead or like nobody would have believed him. >> That's what I wanted to ask. >> And nobody nobody listened to to anyone back then. Yeah. So when you look at people like that, the gardeners, the housekeepers, the people that were around him working on like the staff, you kind of look at it like, and correct me if I'm wrong here. What were they going to do? >> What could they do? >> I feel bad for them because I'm sure they have a lot of guilt and shame about it. I'm sure they do. >> Yes. >> I'm sure they are seeing, you know, eight girls a day at a house, young girls coming in and out the doors. I think they're they're not stupid to know what's going on. They have to clean up like dildos and things out of his room. They know what's going on. >> Yeah. >> But they have no power to say anything, >> you know. I mean, obviously, we wish they would have. I wish there was some FBI files that says they made um a report or something, but it wouldn't have done anything. They had reports from hundreds of girls, >> you know. >> You see this latest video of the other butler that they interviewed >> in '09? I still have to look at this all the way, >> but like they it's on tape >> and he was telling him like what was going on. I think they arrested him >> recently. >> Yeah. No, it's from the files. Steve, can we pull it up on Twitter? Epstein Butler. >> I want to make sure I get it right. This was like just coming out. >> Oh, that was coming out in the files. Oh, okay. Good. >> Yes. In the FBI. >> It's on It's in like a gray tape. If we can find Yep, that's it. >> Can we pull this up on the screen and see what what's what? So this is this is a a formerly secret video of Jeffrey Epstein's butler trying to sell a copy of Epstein's little black book. So I guess it was like >> Yeah. And then he got in trouble for it. Why is he doing time, you know? >> Oh, I'm not laughing cuz it's funny. I'm laughing. >> Yeah. No, I saw I saw this one and then he gets in trouble for it. >> That's insane. Is this I haven't had the words for it that he goes to jail for that and not the actual people that were doing things. >> Yeah. >> Well, you know the famous line from the '08 case, Alex Aosta, who later became labor secretary, he I was told he belongs to intelligence. >> He was told that Jeffrey belongs to intelligence. Yeah. Yeah. That's what he was told. >> So, and that means hands off. Yeah, >> that would explain the 80 cameras in every room. >> But just because you belong to intelligence doesn't mean you have the right to like abuse all these girls. >> It's insane. >> It's like it's like this godlike thing. I can do whatever I want to do. And because >> you know I have immunity and nothing's ever going to happen to me, you know? >> Yeah. Like that's the thing that guy Alex Aosta has daughters. I believe we can check that. >> So many of them have daughters. >> I know. Exactly. But like >> but I think so many of their their hands are tied. They can't even do anything. That's the problem. >> He's running that whole case though. It's like I don't know. >> I don't know either. Um I think there's just some crazy amount of evidence out there. So >> Mhm. Lisa, real quick, I just have to go to the bathroom and then we'll come right back. Okay. >> All right. We'll be right back. >> All right. We're back. So, God, I have so many questions here, but I we did get off from the second half of like after you left the second time from from his place and you were going back like where did you go back to that day? You said you had a full day scheduled out for you. Did you go back to the agency right away or do you not remember? >> I don't know. similar kind of like have to compartmentalize it though again. >> I don't have no idea. I mean I've not even thought about where I went after that. >> When was the next time you saw him? >> So during those years like I would travel a lot for work. So um I always had the excuse of like not being um available as much and I tried to avoid him as much as I could. So there was there was a few times that I saw him over the next couple years. Um, and it was pretty much the exact same thing I I described in the second scenario, the second time I went there. >> So he'd talk to you for a while, somehow make you feel good again. >> Yeah. And then then the massage, it didn't happen every time, but it happened most of the time. Um, and then from there it was mostly just uh I don't think his thing was to have me do these massages. I think it was more so I have an audition and he would send me on a plane to go to Los Angeles for an audition and that person uh a big director was in the vials. So, and then I found out many years later that other girls were sent to that same director. So, it was things like that. And then there was an episode where he told me to go to uh it was after a movie premiere and I went to a like a Hollywood afterparty um after premiere party and the owner of the Ford Mauling agency was also there with some girls and then uh there was this like celebrity that was like all over me and I you know kept saying like get away from me. He was way way way older than me um and like gross or cod or whatever and I was just like leave me alone. Um, and I was complaining to um my bookers and stuff from the Ford agency, you know, that this guy was bothering me. Um, and then I just we we left, you know, that restaurant and we went to a couple other parties and then I found myself with, you know, Katie Ford and some other models back at this actor's house at his suite at his hotel in the Upper East Side. Um, and I was in there for a few minutes and then they left. I was in the bathroom and I was there left alone and then from there um I was assaulted by that big that celebrity very well-known celebrity in that room. So I at that time I had just thought well like dumb luck you know on my part that it ended up that way. But I ended up finding out years later through like now we're 2020 and I'm deposed for cases and I'm telling stories of what happened to me and my attorneys are like, "Oh, you've been trafficked." And then they're like, "Who did what?" You know, and then all this stuff started coming out. Um, and um, I found out during that time that um, that Katie Ford had been in on things with Epstein and that she Epstein had sent me to her, but she was sending girls to him. And so I just started getting really upset about it because, you know, here I am thinking I worked my way, you know, and becoming a Ford model. And now to find out, you know, there was some ne nefarious, you know, ways of me becoming a model had to do with this these agency owners. And then they were like in cahoots with like bringing these young girls to parties around these older men and kind of like pushing you off to these men while you just think that you're special and just hanging out with these people, you know. Um, and there was a much darker reason why they were bringing you around to these places. And so that was that was really hard for me to to like comprehend and know that that's what what was really going on in those early years when you're a Ford model and this stuff is intermittently happening. You know, you had said you'd always wanted to be a model and everything like that. Were you able to ever have fun doing your job too or was the joy taken away? >> No, I did of course like I loved I mean we would travel on shoots to exotic locations, different countries, you know. I really enjoyed the actual job of modeling. Um I mean it was pretty strenuous. I wake up really early. You have to take really good care of your skin and your body. I mean it was around really creative people, you know. Um, I love the artistic expression of it, but you know, there was all sorts of things going on where you were constantly around these creepy men who, you know, predatory men. And, um, also finding out that a lot of the women were involved never really sat right with me. It never does when these older women are putting you, you know, around these older men. Um, >> basically, it's basically trafficking you to these men without without you even knowing it. Absolutely. >> And I feel bad for a lot of these girls who are just trying to live out their dreams, you know, like I was and uh put in these situations where they never really should have been in. So that episode was really weird. Um didn't find out what was really going on with that until just two years ago. >> Um there was also agents who, you know, weird things were going on. So these model agencies not only were sending girls to Epstein, they were also bringing you to these parties around other older men and they were also um in with a lot of politicians and like senators and things like that. >> So you would see those people there. >> So I'll tell you about this this I don't think I've ever brought this up had time to really tell this story, but so now I'm a Ford model, you know, feeling good, you know, living the life, having a a great career. I would go out often with Katie Ford and her husband Andre Balos. Now, Andre was very handsome and charming. Um, and the girls didn't really mind him being around um because he just, you know, he was very good-looking. Uh, but it was always this thing of like it's kind of weird like she's with this guy, you know, and then we would start seeing him around a lot with whenever she wasn't around. There would be Uma was around, you know, with Herman, the actress. I think he later married. Um, so there was these things that were just right in your face. >> Um, that didn't really make sense why these adults who were married were >> right >> having their mistress or or whoever right in front of you. There was just weird things like that. So, one day I'm at the agency and one of my bookers and Katie was there and some of the old the other agents were there and we're like, you know, we had a guy in the other day who was like checking out comp cards and was like, "Oo, who's Lisa Phillips?" like she's really cute and they were like um he's a really important person and you know we think you should go on a blind date with him and so I was just like are you serious like I've never gone on a blind date and they were like yeah you know you should go out with this guy and I was just like okay whatever and so you know they organized this blind date for me and so I remember being with my girlfriends by this time I lived in the Upper East Side and um I had got ready uh for this date and they had told me to wear like a really nice dressed cuz we were going to a really nice dinner party. And so they had their hand in all of this for the date. And so I didn't think anything of it because I just thought, "Oh, it's going to be some young hot guy. It'd be fun, you know, so like stupid back then, you know, like who who thinks about this kind of stuff." And so, um, you just trust your agency. And so I get all ready. I'm in this like pretty dress. And then I I go running out. I remember it was a Range Rover. And I go to open the door and I'm like, "Are we picking up your grandson?" And he's like, "No." I'm like, "Your son?" And he's like, "No." And I'm like, "I'm going out with you." And he was like, "Yeah, like get in. It'll be fine. Just get in. You know, I know." And he names the Bookers and stuff like that. I'm like, "Are you serious?" Like, I just couldn't believe it because the guy looks so old. >> Yeah. >> Like like a gr my grandfather white hair. He was old and I was like I didn't understand it. So I get in the car, you know, and he ends up being actually really nice. He's a state senator. >> Oh, they always are, right? >> He's a senator. So I'm just like, okay, this man takes me around the corner, Upper East Side near Madison and 70s something around the corner from Epstein's house. We go into this house up into an elevator into this this beautiful dining area and where he seats me down for dinner and I'm sitting next to Al Gore and Tippy and I'm just like this is year this is the year 2000 2001 and I'm just like huh and I remember like you know I'm I'm pretty c cultured and whatever and you know talking about art and politics I have no idea what these people are talking about. And I remember after the dinner, you know, so I just hold my own. After the dinner, I was like, "Why did you bring me to this dinner?" I was like, "Aren't you embarrassed to be there with me? You know, you're so much older than me." He was like, "No, this no big deal." And I'm like, "Are you serious?" And I remember asking him like, I had no idea what they were saying the whole time. And he was like, "Oh, if you just read the New York Times every day, you'll understand everything, you know?" And I was just like, "This is just the weirdest world." Um, and then he dropped me off at the at my house and I remember running upstairs and telling my girlfriends like, "You won't believe what just happened." I was like, "The >> So, we just did dinner." >> Yeah, it was just dinner. It was really nothing. Um, dropped me off. Granted, I never went back out with him again because now that I know how it works, probably would have been abused at some point, but I didn't. I never went back out with that guy cuz I just thought, "How weird is that?" And I remember going back to my agency like the next day or whenever I went in there and being like, "You know, you hooked me up with a like a 70-year-old man >> who was sitting next to the dude who I'm guessing by the timeline had just lost the most contentious presidential election ever, just casually." >> And why would you bring someone like me, you know, someone so young with you to such an important dinner with all like political people there? you know, the the climate, everyone that was around. Why would you be so like candid not to think like that's kind of I even said to him, "Aren't you embarrassed of me to be there with you?" You know, there's probably like a 50y old I mean a 50 age gap here. It was just nothing. Now I understand that why it's nothing, you know, but uh back then I just was like, "You guys are weird." And that was my model agency that put me on a blind date with this guy knowing full well and didn't even say to me, "Look, he's going to be a little older than you, you know, didn't even like say anything to me." That's how much like they just like use and abuse you, you know, just you're like a little pawn in their whole little game, you know? They just don't really give a [ __ ] They probably wouldn't have cared if I was assaulted by that guy that night. >> No, I don't think they would have. Yeah, >> I think that's probably part of the expectation that you were having enough fun doing the job of modeling and as you said having these other experiences around the world and whatever that you were able to kind of separate those two. But as someone who spent yours as a model and then spent a lot of years working in the industry as a modeling scout, like looking back on it now and knowing what you know, are you kind of like this is such a gross industry? Yeah, I mean this was Yeah, I mean that's the reason why I tapped out about two years ago. I was like done. >> What was the breaking point? >> Well, I mean all this stuff was coming up and I had been through these depositions uh with Virginia G. Frey. I was deposed for her case and with JP Morgan I found out lots of information. >> Um >> bookmark that. We'll come back. >> Yeah. just so many things and I was just like also sitting in the offices at one of the most prestigious agencies in the world and still having girls and boys come in saying, you know, this person touched me and this person like tried to hit on me and this person assaulted me. I'm like still like this is still going on. Um where where's the protection, you know? And I just was getting fed up of it. So, I really decided right in that moment like I'm getting out of this business and I'm going to go right into podcasting because that's the thing to go into right now. I'm going to start a podcast and I'm going to talk to survivors. I'm a survivor. I'm going to start telling my story and I'm going to listen to survivor stories. Um, and I just ended up just doing it very quickly about about two years ago. I just went right into it and started doing it. >> Good for you. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I also have to hook you up with Sarah Edmonson as well. And I had her in here. She was really her story was really amazing too. You guys would do a great podcast together. >> Yeah. >> But do you know I think unfortunately when you now see something so blatantly made in the open and people not going to prison. You know, you ask yourself, "Wow, this stuff's still happening. Why?" Well, here's why. >> Because other people look at it and they go, "Well, look, even those guys don't go to prison. They were doing cannibal shit." Exactly. That's why someone like Pam Bondi had the responsibility to at least acknowledge people who have been assaulted. Acknowledge them. The fact that you don't even acknowledge him just spreads like wild fire throughout all survivors everywhere. >> Don't speak up. >> Yeah. And she's a woman. >> You're not going to get anywhere. >> She's a woman, too. That's really like double. You don't have you have no idea how many people in the modeling business have been abused. I mean most models will be like me two times, six times, 10 times. It happens so much, you know, with young ambitious women, not just modeling, entertainment world, >> music world is even worse. Um, you know, but anyone who's working their way up the ladder to, you know, have a successful career, >> you know, >> yes, >> stuff happens. >> Goes right back to the manipulation he did in the first conversation where he said he asked you about your dreams, your family, and >> all the all the good stuff. >> You're talking about the most preeminent industry examples of places where that is what they sell. When you talk modeling, when you talk entertainment, when you talk Hollywood, it's like only a select few make it. You really want it, right? How bad do you want it? >> Mhm. >> And they pray on that. >> Yeah. And unfortunately, that's how a lot of the sex trafficking rings today. That's the foundation of them. >> Yeah. >> You know, they they pray on those dreams and that's how they say, "Oh, well, come to Vegas. Come to Vegas." And then we're going to introduce you to the right people, whether it's a music business or whatever. and they come to Vegas and then they're right into the trafficking ring. >> How How did you You said you got married in ' 06. >> Yes. Mhm. >> How did you meet your husband? >> Do we really have to go into that? >> You don't have to. No. No. Sorry if that's not something >> We're divorced. >> Your ex-husband. Sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I mean I mean I was in Malibu. >> It's a nice place. We don't have to talk about that. I had a beautiful, you know, I just it wasn't >> I didn't I hadn't I hadn't um confronted >> um my trauma. I hadn't gone through therapy and stuff. So, I brought a lot of that into the relationship, chose someone who >> um didn't end up being a very good relationship for me. And so, um I ended up raising my children all by myself. >> Wow. >> Yeah. I ended up leaving Yeah. I ended up leaving him and moving to New York again in in 2011 with two two young boys and um just realizing I have to do it all myself. Ended up going kind of back into the modeling world and many of the people that I knew helped me out and I started a scouting agency um and protecting models uh finding models and managing them and placing them with big agencies. So I was pretty successful working in that business and I had two little babies at the time and >> and then found out a few months later that I was pregnant. Um and um that was really difficult for me because I already had two young babies by myself and and realized now I was pregnant same father but >> didn't even know I hadn't even shown or anything you know and I was three and a half months pregnant. >> So I ended up raising three boys three young boys on my own. >> That's amazing though that you did that. >> Yeah. I can tell you through my 30s, entirely through my 30s, never was in any relationship. I raised my boys early from my 30s to to till I was 40 years old. Raised my kids all on my own. It was the best years of my life, but the hardest years of my life, you know, here in in New York City. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't until 2017 I moved with my kids. I I always promised my kids like, "Mommy is going to make it. she's going to take care of you and we're going to move to Los Angeles and we're going to have a view of the ocean and we're going to have like the best life. And in 2017, I made that dream come true for them and moved them to Laguna Beach. >> Oh, it's awesome. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> A little different than New York City. >> Yeah. I just wanted to be near the ocean and, you know, have little surfer babies and have that beautiful California life. And so, you know, I was able to give that to them, you know. Um, yeah. But it wasn't until I was 40 when I started dating again. my kids were a little older. >> So when you're when you're raising them on your own for all these years though, like you said, you weren't confronting what had happened to you and everything. Did it change obviously like you're you were you revolved your whole life around your kids and and made unbelievable sacrifices for that and are clearly a great mom. Did it change at all how you look at your kids from like a protective mother standpoint once you went back and thought about the things that had happened to you and then kind of looked at them like oh my god >> oh yeah I'm very protective mom but I mean I want have I want to have independent children you know and I want them to think for themselves and do whatever they want to do in their lives and I will always support them 100% but I'm very protective of them um I mean as any parent should Um but though through those years it was just them and and me you know it was really really beautiful. So um I didn't have any relationships and I didn't want to you know I had a failed marriage. I just chose really the wrong person for myself. We had nothing in common. >> He was Norwegian descent and you know didn't really bond with them and basically kind of gave them up in a way. And so, you know, I was in survival mode, I think, through my 30s. Yeah. >> Building a business and basically in survival mode, just all by myself, >> living in New York City, which is not cheap. >> Um, you know, and really did it all on my own. And it took me about two or three years. And I, you know, had a successful business and I managed tons of models and and um really enjoyed it. and then was offered a position, you know, at women management and the industry industry models to be the head scout. And then I started traveling around the world again um as a a scout for a Japanese agency and that's when I started going to all these countries and >> and you know doing the big scouting work. >> You get to take your kids with you >> uh for some but but not really. They were young. >> Yeah. >> Um thank God for my mother-in-law. She she would come and stay with the kids and stuff. Thank God for her. I would never have been able to have, you know, the career that I had without my in-laws, you know, taking care of the kids. >> Oh, so they're great. They stayed in in your life. >> Yeah. I was Yeah. I mean, um, wasn't so great in the beginning, you know, when I left their son, but, you know, after a while, they they love their grandkids and they were there for them. And >> anytime I would leave for, you know, a week at a time to take care of business and travel the world, you know, for my job, they would take care of the kids and I was so grateful for them. Yeah. That's cool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I didn't mean to step into something personal there with with your husband. The the only reason I was asking >> I just never ever talk about him. So >> yeah, that absolutely fine with me. The the the only reason I was asking about that in general was because I was trying to figure out what you know mentally got you to a place to be able to trust someone enough to date them seriously and then marry them in the short years after you know you're being abused by Jeffrey. Like you said, the last time you saw Jeffrey was 04. Is that right? >> Yeah. And I and I left straight to Los Angeles. I was an actress. I had, you know, one of the best managers and talent agencies. I was auditioning, you know, um, you know, I I I loved I loved being actress and a model. I really really loved it. I just never really liked, you know, what I was really up against, >> right? >> Which was, you know, it's a nefarious business. It's it's not a very upfront and honest business. um there's a lot of people that just want to take advantage of you and I could clearly see that. Um because of the level where I was what I was working at and the friends that I knew um I could clearly see what was going on and I didn't like it and so you know my husband you know he was Norwegian descent um and it was a sweet man and he was in commercial real estate and I really believed in him and I really thought I was you know going to marry him. I mean, let's face it, I was pregnant, but I I was trying to make things work with him. You know, I really wanted things to work and and be with him, but um you know, found out very quickly that, you know, wasn't going to be a really good relationship. So, it wasn't really my choice, you know, not to be with the father of my kids, but it just um was just, you know, the way it happened. >> Yeah. Now, you had talked about like over these years you see Jeffrey very intermittently and sometimes there's abuse, other times there weren't. Would would there be something like in a time where you went and talked with him and had a conversation where it didn't end in abuse? Would it be because it's in a public place or something like that? Is that the only reason it wouldn't happen or >> I think the only reason why it didn't happen was because there was someone else there that he could abuse. Oh. Like for instance, I was brought to his house for a couple parties. He would call me like, "Oh, I'm out with my friends. I'll bring your friends." You know, that kind of thing. And just naively just being, "Okay." Like thinking it's another like party to go to. >> Um but then you'd walk in and you go up until like the the I guess it was the the li the library with a big table and there was just all these old men sitting around like these nerdy old men. It's like, "Okay, why are we here?" >> You know, stuff like that. You know, Gain would be there sometimes, you know, but they would be much older men. >> Did you ever talk with her at length? >> I I mean, I met her. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Um, well, I mean, she was from or went to school in Oxford and I lived in Oxford growing up, you know, when I was young and so, >> you know, had some conversation with her. I mean, >> what did you think of her? >> I mean, she was very charming and eloquent and, you know, beautiful and stylish and definitely was charming and, you know, just that's all I thought about her. I didn't really think anything else. >> Um I didn't really know anything back then about her like like we do now. So >> um but she was very much interested in getting to know the other girls, you know, and or she was definitely an organizer of >> the only woman there with a bunch of men. Um so definitely like the organizer of of the girls being introduced to the men or I saw a couple friends like sitting on their laps and things like that and it was definitely a flirty environment. I mean, I found out years later I one of my friends was brought into the room a room with one of the other men and assaulted and things. So, um, >> how did that make you feel when you found that out? >> Well, it wasn't didn't make me feel good, you know, since I had brought them there. Um, it made me feel really bad about that, but I I didn't know then really what happened. This was years later I found out about it. So it wasn't really told like we weren't really like I said nobody really >> said anything about it back then. >> What when when you would be invited to a party like this and then they'd say bring friends and then you do and you've had bad things happen to you but then you also said you had that other side of the relationship where he's like oh he's kind of a mentor and helping my career. Is that like kind of looking back on you as as as a young very young woman when this was happening? Is that kind of what made you be like, "Yeah, it'll be fine. If they're there with me, it'll be fine." Like, is there that thought in your head that like nothing will happen if it's all of us there? >> No. Well, not really. I just I just knew that anyone who knew him benefited from it. I would say that they got kind of what they wanted. So, a lot of times they wanted to meet him. So, like a lot of times I didn't want to introduce my friend, but it's like, "Oh, your friend helped you get that. Can I meet him?" It was like that kind of thing, you know, and so these are my really close friends. It wasn't like I went and >> picked somebody off in in the street and they're like, "Okay, meet coming in." These my really good friends like, "What? you know, you got to go to NYU, you know, or you got to, and it's like, oh, well, okay, if you want to meet him, like knowing, well, well, he does like these creepy massages and just so you know, you know, like it was kind of like that. >> You did say that >> sometimes, you know, um, but I don't think I ever thought or knew that they would be assaulted. Sometimes you, and a lot of survivors say this, like a lot of times you think it's only you >> because they're not saying that it happened to them, you know? So, um, I didn't really know the extent of these assaults until, you know, modern day. I didn't really know then what was what was really going on with them. I mean, sometimes you would ask them and they would say no. So, I didn't You have to understand the way we think about Epstein today is nothing like we thought back then. A lot of people just didn't really talk about him so much. >> That's right. You didn't even have the top of the iceberg scraped back then. Yeah, until it became a conversation. That was that wasn't until late 2003, early 2004 when it became a conversation. >> I think it was even after that, right? >> Well, well, he was still involved with a lot of my friends and other people 05 06. But for me, I was out early 2004. >> Okay. And it was only because a girlfriend of mine came to came to me and said that she was abused through Jeffrey, you know, and she said she said she went to go see him on the Upper East Side apartment. I guess mansion. Um I guess >> it had never been that bad, but there was a situation where he had told her with that that demon look in his eyes like, "You need to go in that room right now and you need to have sex with with him." and she was scared and she did it. She went into the room and somebody came in, had sex with her, just dismissed her and left. It was a kind of this quick thing which [ __ ] her up, you know, cuz that wasn't what she was wanting or expecting. And then from there, that's when that's when everything opened up because then she was the first one to say, "This man made me do something." It's like, "What? Like he made you?" And then we started questioning like well I wonder if like when he would call us to go maybe that's what he wanted us to do you know but this is this was like a force thing with her like Virginia Frey explains in her book go do that you know um and so when she said that she was just like you have no idea who Jeffrey is and like what are you talking about like what do you mean and so we called the friends over we're all talking like what do you mean what did he make you do what what's going on here so it was more of like this oh my gosh Gosh, are you serious? This this type of conversation that we never had before. So, this is three or four years in. Um, >> so now you hear it from other people. >> Yeah. And things are unraveling. Yeah. >> So, it's a completely different um way of thinking about this man. Did you guys at any point in that conversation when this is coming out, did someone suggest to call the police or something like that or was it assumed that it's like, yo, this guy's powerful. We got to stay away. >> Well, we talked about it um about contacting the FBI. There were there was definitely talk about it, but nobody wanted to do it. >> We just wanted to to what we talked about was just the best way to get away from him so we didn't have to see him again. That was just what we spoke about. I'm not I'm not quite sure if she ever saw him again after that. I'm thinking no because she moved away after I moved away. We all just try to get away from New York where he knew that he spent most of his time. >> And he would before this though he would like call you you were saying too. So that would be a lot of the contact where he's like go meet with this person in Hollywood or go do this audition then ask you about it afterwards. That was a lot of your communication with him, right? >> Well, in person, yes. Or maybe a phone call. That's when he was pretty serious cuz he's right to the point. >> Yeah. >> Um, but sometimes it would be the secretaries calling for things and you would you would have the chance to say no or I'm out of town or tell them I'm out of town, >> you know, and maybe they would just try to hound somebody else to do something, you know. Um, I never really thought that those horrible things were happening. I just kind of thought, okay, if he sent me for an audition and I was assaulted or somebody tried to have sex with me that it was just that separate situation between the two of us. I had no idea that it was because of he was sending me for that reason. I just knew when I got back, I always thought it was strange. And even at Capito Hill, when I talked to all the girls and we sat down, I would say, "Did he groom did I would say, "Did he ask you whenever you got back from meeting with anyone exactly what happened?" And they were like, "Oh my gosh." He wanted to know exactly every single detail of everything that happened from the moment you sat down with him and talked to him, how he how he approached you, if he tried to assault you, if he tried to, you know, what he said. Every single one of them said the same thing. And we're just like, "Wow, that's what I always thought because I always thought it was weird. He would ask me so many questions about one little inc incident about one stupid audition, you know, but then there were girls sent to the same audition. So you So let's take a director, right? He's getting auditions from innovative artists and Abram's artists and all the different agencies they're sending, you know, their talent to spec specifically for this role. But then Epste is sending 10 girls. Yeah, >> there's a difference that he's sending these 10 girls, you know, for an audition. He's not a movie agent, you know what I mean? So, that should have been the first red flag right there, but people are introduced to directors. Doesn't matter who you are. Um, I think back then I was just excited to go on audition with a really big director, right? >> Yeah. I had asked you earlier where people maybe if they aren't abused learn to groom like that and you said someone has to teach them and there is a lot of evidence that one of the people who taught Jeffrey Epstein about this stuff was admin Kosigible that's a separate issue but what you're saying right here and I'm not saying this to make light of it at all I'm just drawing a parallel is a sadistic version of like an NFL coach watching a lot of tape and learning every single thing about the other team when he would call you and ask in my opinion just hearing you describe it and ask you about every single thing that happened. He's studying >> to see what the other person does or if they were cuz you said he would say to you like, "Oh, he didn't do anything or something like that." And then he'd be like disappointed or something. So >> the disappointment might have been so sick that he's like, "Oh my god, they weren't good enough to get her to do like >> Yeah. Could be on that. Oh, that's a level of depravity that's uh a little beyond beyond the bill. Wow. >> Have you have you f Did you follow the Diddy case at all? >> Yeah. Mhm. >> Did any of that surprise you? >> Did he? >> Yeah. >> Well, I mean, in the early 2000s, Diddy was around a lot and everybody knew about his parties you didn't want to go to. I mean, there were the white Well, there were the white parties, you know. >> I mean, I went to a white party. I mean, everybody wanted to go to the white parties, but like >> um you know, the after parties I never went to or um most people I know didn't go to those and and they had a reputation of you didn't want to go to those parties. So, that was very well known back then. I also knew like a club club owner that used to say that you know he's gone to those parties and and you know about the bisexuality and things of Diddy and stuff. It was pretty well known back then. Very open. >> Yeah, it's pretty well in the music industry back then um that a lot of those men were doing those types of parties and stuff. So the different the difference with with Shan Combmes is that he drugged. There was a lot of drugs around. >> And with Epstein, he liked you to be very present and there was never any alcohol or drugs around. >> So you never saw him drink or anything like that >> or he would never give you drugs or alcohol. >> He wanted you to be present and he hated drugs and alcohol. >> Yeah. >> Like he looked down on you if you did them. >> You know, that's the difference with Pittdy. I think there was lots of drugs and alcohol involved. I mean, I think there was even drugs in the baby oil, >> right? So I think there was it was very different. um environments, but still, you know, sadist abuse, you know. >> Yeah. Now, when you met Virginia Robert years later, right? >> Mhm. >> Well, actually, before I get to that, cuz you've mentioned it a few times that I think we should talk about that. when when he first did you know that he got arrested in ' 07 08 and that case happened. Were you aware of any of that? >> Yes, of course. >> At the time. >> Mhm. I just didn't follow it closely. >> Okay. >> And I didn't pay like a lot of attention to it. I definitely didn't pay a lot of attention to it. >> So, you didn't know the details of like there were 43 12 and 13 and 14 year olds coming. >> Did anybody know that then? >> I don't I don't think so. >> So, no. I just knew that they were underage girls. And then I would speak to some of my friends about it. Gosh, did you know that Jeffree was with underage girls? And then and then um I had to remember there was this one time that my girlfriends and I we flew on a on the airplane down to like West Palm Beach and we were supposed to be going to Miami. We ended up in West Palm Beach and um I remember one of the girls Reena Oh, she's been pretty outspoken. >> I remember. And yeah, Reena called Jeffrey and was like, "Oh, we're stranded in West Palm. You know, we need a we need a ride." And he had he organized a car to pick us up to take us to Miami. And when we got into the car to take us to Miami, there was a really young girl in the car. And I remember we were just like, "Why is she here?" Like, that's so weird. Um, and I remember we'd always spoken about it. Why was that young girl in the car? And then now we know why there was a young girl in the car. But um that was the only thing that I ever saw that would I would never have thought that he was into anyone underage. He was very very adamant if any of the girls that were around were over 18. And that's what I always saw >> and that was that's what I always thought anyway. They could have been underage but I never knew. Um the girls on the island I found out were underage but I never knew then that they were >> the ones you were there with. M >> I never knew they were. I mean, I'm sure maybe they were told to lie and say they were overage or we probably didn't even talk about it. >> That's the thing. That's the thing about like the blackmail and stuff like >> Mhm. >> All you got to do if you want to blackmail someone like that is let me think of a really blatant example because I don't know how this would work, but you have rooms came up. some guy goes in to have what, you know, even on camera might appear to be consensual sex, but let's actually assume it's not, but it might appear that way in a court of law. You might be able to make the argument. >> But if someone comes in afterwards and pulls out the driver's license >> or the passport or whatever identification of that person and just holds it up to the camera, >> you're [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> It's done. Mhm. >> And so there are people because it's so hard to skim through all this and be like, could this person be innocent? Could everyone just looks guilty and you and you just want to go off with all your heads. >> But there are people who have said like people who are viewed as as perpetrators of this stuff who have said exactly what you just said, which is >> I always saw them with young women, >> but I never saw them with a 12 or 13year-old or 14year-old or something like that. They were always of age. And so I was like, all right, whatever. And it's like when I hear people say that, I'm like I could see how the fog >> sets in. But to me, it's like looking at it from their perspectives. >> All right. You going to an island with the guy >> and it's you and him and like a few housekeepers and like [ __ ] 10 women. That's not a little weird. >> Yeah, exactly. Even even just even just the 16 to 22 year olds that are on the island, >> you know, is a little weird to have a whole bunch of young girls on the island, you know. Do do these men even know that their passports are taken away and they can't leave until he says they can leave? >> That's crazy. >> You know, stuff like that. >> Who took your passport again when >> Well, um Well, Epstein would take the passports of the girls when you go to the island >> personally. >> Yeah. So you So you can't get away. Yeah. >> Oh man. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, people don't know all this stuff is going on and and you don't really know which men knew of young girls or they're really young girls. You just don't know until you read the files and you do an investigation, you know? I mean, you have Bill Gates saying, you know, I had sex with a Russian girl. Was it a 16-year-old Russian girl or was it a 22-year-old? You know, I mean, she's not coming forward, but like what do you know? You know, you got a STED from her. you know that was >> that you're trying to hide from your wife. I mean I love Melinda Gates. >> Oh, she's gone. >> Oh, I love her. She's just going off. And that's what we need. Women who say, you know, enough is enough. >> She's an Epstein survivor, you know. >> Well, yeah. >> She survived him. >> Yeah. >> You know, because her husband was locked in there and saying all these years, "Oh, I just don't know that guy that well." >> The best line ever. He's like, "Well, he's dead." So, >> yeah, he's dead. Yeah. You think you think all your skeletons in your closet go away just cuz he's dead? >> That's not an answer, my man. Oh my god. Oh, it's so bad. >> When did you Did you not meet Virginia Roberts until 2019 when >> Yeah. Well, I never actually met her in person. I've only spoken to her on the phone a few times. Yeah. I reached out to her because she spoke out in 2019 about Prince Andrew, >> right? And I reached out to her because I knew of two things about Prince Andrew and I wanted just to corroborate her story or support her. The first one was seeing him on the island and the second one was my girlfriend. She was made to have sex >> and she told me it was a prince. >> Was that the one who went into the room? Yeah. >> And came back and blew the whole whistle. >> Yes, that was the one. >> And that was with in the in the mansion. >> Well, she had told me it was a prince and I said, "I met a prince on the island." >> Yeah. I wonder. So, we put two and two together. >> Um, and then Virginia spoke out and said she was abused by a prince. And I, you know, during during those years, I started speaking out. I didn't really have a support system. So, I reached out to the survivors, Virginia and the other Mara and the other girls that were >> um there and um started talking, you know, with them about our stories and how it lined up. >> It was the same years. So >> what cuz you were you said you were at least aware a case was happening in '08 when it was happening 0708 in 2019 when he got arrested obviously the story went crazy mainstream and that is a big difference here they kind of like shove the other one under the rug when it was happening what made you go whoa and have it all like have your moment and when was that moment where it all came back and you're like holy [ __ ] I was trafficked assaulted all this stuff and I've never talked about this like what was that moment? >> Well, the traffing, the assault, all that stuff took years to come out. Um, so there wasn't that moment, but there was a moment when he died when everything came like off my shoulders >> with him dying was when I was finally able to say, "Okay, wait a second. I had I had a just a reaction to it that just was it was really profound." So, I wanted to to know answers and I wanted I just wanted to know like like what was going on. There was so many things back then and I just wanted to reach out to people and and try to you know understand the story and that took took several years because when I spoke out in 2020 21 you know it was really to support other survivors in their stories. It wasn't even like I had even really gotten to my story yet. Um that came a little bit later with being deposed for things and talking about it. the Epstein fund. I started talking a little bit more about it. Um the more I started >> Wait, the Epstein fund. >> Yeah, there was this, you know, Virgin Island Epstein fund. I didn't get a payout or settlement of it, but a lot of the survivor 200 something survivors did. Um but I but I was um I did go and tell my story. That was almost like, you know, like almost being reabused again because those women were not empathetic at all. And so I kind of shunned away from telling my story. So it took me some time to get there. Um, >> when did you start therapy? >> Two years ago, so it took some time. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> So, not at all. Right. >> Well, actually, no, I did start therapy right after that, but it didn't really work for me. It was just talk therapy and it didn't really do anything for me. Just talking about stuff. >> What was different about the therapy? >> The therapy that I got two years ago was EMDR therapy. And so EMDR is when they use like a a flashlight and they go back and forth like this and your eyes go back and forth like this and you go into that kind of like memories that are stored and you bring those up and you talk about them and then you kind of restore them. And so it's like this this kind of like hypnotherapy. It's very popular with uh trauma victims and um it works. It works and um it's very traumatic to bring bring these new actually old thoughts and memories back but then you kind of car compartmentalize them and um take them delicately you know sensitively to talk about them and then kind of put them back and then there's pulse pulsating things in your hands that so the memories are going back and forth in your head the flashing lights the music and so it's going back into that part of your memory that's suppressed and trust me mine was deeply suppressed in there. Oh, >> so it took a little bit of time, but you would definitely have outbursts and, you know, moments of like breaking down and crying fits and things like that trying to get through it because you don't really want to go there as you're starting to re-remember things. And unfortunately, it goes into your childhood and um the abuse maybe that you had in your childhood that you don't really want to talk about because I tend to be like, I had the best childhood. I traveled all around the world and I had everything I wanted. You >> said earlier >> I've always said that, you know, but EMDR taught me, you know, girl, you did not have the best childhood. You did not have a support system. >> You didn't feel safe. You didn't have the emotional capacity to, you know, be loved in the way that you needed. Like my parents bought me everything I needed, you know, and they will say today, well, you know, and when you lived in New York those eight years, you know, I came there, gave you 15 grand for your for your divorce. You know, I was there for you. But I'm like, you lived there for eight years. You never came. You never helped me out for eight years. You came one time in eight years. >> You know, that's not the love and attention and what I needed then. you know, you know, the type of people who say, you know, all these things that you did wrong but never gave you that support to make it better, you know, to leave your child in in survival mode and which is I I was in for so long, you know, and so EMDR taught me, you know, you didn't have a safe place. You didn't have that love that you needed. And granted, now I have it with my children. So I had to bore people to get the love and support that I needed. And trust me, it's the best love and support I'll ever have. Unconditional love. >> So, I do have it now, but um EMDR therapy, it's it'll take you by the balls and like it makes you really look deep and hard into things. But because I had that was the reason why I'm able to be this person in front of you that's powerful and brave today. If I didn't have EMDR therapy, I would never been able to be this person in front of you. >> I needed some type of hard therapy. Um, and to be able to hold space for people in my podcast of their, you know, traumatic stories. I I go to EMDR um, on Wednesdays for two hours for myself >> actively doing it >> for myself and on Thursdays I go for the survivors, you know, I go for their stories because it's traumatic. >> So they do you guys do it in a group setting? No, I go for myself just to work on what Lisa needs to work on personal stuff and then after I work with survivors and do this, you know, this work is not easy >> to talk. You know, you're doing it with me talking to survivors and hearing their stories, especially domestic violence and stalking and all the things child abuse that we go into on my podcast. I have to go to EMDR therapy to deal with the trauma from others. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> of taking on their trauma because I'm the one sitting there crying where they're the bold and brave ones talking. So, you know, it's a lot of work. I'm surprised you're not in therapy for it. >> I think, you know, I I get to talk with so many different types of people. I do all different types of content. And thank God because if I had to do I mean this is amazing today but if I had to do one like this every day I I probably would be in therapy because you do really >> first of all there's like a great delicacy to one like this because I don't want you talking about things you don't want to talk about. There's also cameras rolling and everything too. And I want you to feel comfortable and all that, but I'm also trying to understand something that's not possible for me to fully understand, but do it enough that I can get it to a place to where you can at least share an experience that other people out there can be like, "Oh my god, wow, >> I never thought of it that way." Or something like that. And when you do that, I mean, these aren't happy stories. You know what I mean? >> No. But they're so important to tell. Like you just said it, like >> so people can understand and think, "Oh, I never thought of it that way." That's the whole point of doing it is for you to get a better understanding of how things work, how how these master manipulators operate, how people groom, >> how they how they can sexually assault you over and over. Why do you keep going back? all these questions, you know, and so people can really understand, you know, the complexity of of abuse, especially when it comes to a serial predator like an Epstein, you know, >> even just like a Cosby, >> you know, even understanding how these actresses went to go meet with this guy and how they were drugged and raped and don't even know what happened to them, right? >> You know, how how everyone has their like MO and >> and how they can get away with it for so long. I I speak out for those reasons. And also the other half of it is because I want to be there for survivors. And I I'm always representing hundreds if not thousands of survivors every time I step up on Capitol Hill, every time I'm on the podcast, every time people send me hundreds of messages all the time. >> Right. >> I was just in Ireland, you know, all the messages that come in from people in Ireland who are like, "I have something I want to tell you." You know, and just like getting it off their chest. >> Yeah. Like this is something that is a huge massive movement that's happening right now where people are actually being aware for the first time speaking it out loud of their abuse that they had because we all one in three one in four have had some type of of abuse whether it's just like your narcissistic girlfriend you know you know all different forms there's all different forms you know and two really the worst forms of it >> when you were doing what's it EMDR it's called? When you were doing EMDR for the first time in 23 or 24 years ago when you were doing it >> and it made you look back on your childhood and everything. This is also, if I'm not mistaken from what you explained earlier, this is also since you kind of ceased having a relationship with your parents, right? And your parents, at least the way I understood it, please correct me if I'm wrong, it kind of stemmed from them not being comfortable with you talking about this or sharing your experiences and they kind of abandon you from that. Did that make it I don't know if the words easier but give you a clearer path to maybe look at your childhood differently through the lens of this therapy because you were now past the point where you're like God at a moment I needed them the most. My parents literally said you're gone. >> Yeah. The moments I needed them the most, they were they weren't there for me. That was the years when I lived in New York City when I had three young children. They weren't there for me. M >> um and not to say they don't have their reasons, but I mean I'm their child. There's never any reason in my book. There's no reason that I'm going to turn my back on my child there. They they couldn't there's never anything they could do. So I don't understand that. Um I did ask my mother uh I did ask her and I think it was 2023 in January. Um, there were some text messages that went from my mother to an ex-boyfriend who had seen me on a documentary and had had reached out to me, you know, and had formed a relationship with me and he pretended like he was a friend and um my parents had met him and, you know, he was a really good Christian guy and um and after getting to know him um he was very clear that he wanted to to abuse me. You know, he wanted to have a threesome with me. He wanted to choke and spit on me. He wanted to do all these sexual things with me. And I didn't want to have a relationship with him. And I don't know, my mother, for some reason, took his side cuz he was like this good Christian man. And on paper, he was like this good guy. And she didn't understand why I didn't want to have a relationship with this guy, even though I was trying to tell him he was abusive. So, we had this big falling out over this this particular man. >> Did you tell her what he wanted to do? Yeah, I did tell her. But for some reason, a lot of parents, I don't know. I' I've come to realize a lot of mothers want their daughters to be in a relationship. No matter if it's abusive or not, they want to have that relationship where, you know, this wealthy man is taking care of you and your family. Oh, he said he was going to take care of your kids and put them through college. Yeah, mom, but he told me he wanted to choke me and spit on me, too. you know, so there was just all this crazy stuff going on with this person who had definitely groomed and manipulated my mother. So, long story short, um I'm just trying to explain why I don't speak to them anymore. >> Yeah, it's clocking for me. >> So, things were things weren't weren't good with my parents after this relationship with this particular man. Then six months went by and so January comes about and I'm looking at my phone and text messages are coming in from my mom, but they're not to me. They're to the other guy that had broken up with 6 months earlier. And I'm like, "Oh, that's funny. Why is she texting him?" But I read the text messages and she's telling him how I should have never left him and he was the best thing that ever happened to me and shame on Lisa. And so I finally had the guts because normally I'm just like, "Oh, my mom, you know, she just must be a bad moment or something." I was always sticking up for her. But in this moment, I hadn't spoken to her in a while. And so I said, "Oh, mom, you know, why are you talking to this person like that, you know, and I can clearly see that you're saying, you know, oh, I don't even talk to Lisa anymore." And I'm like, "Well, I didn't know you weren't talking to me anymore, and you know, that's news to me." And I said, "Well, what's the problem?" And she goes, "Well, I'm ashamed of you." And so she wrote it and I can read the text message. I'm ashamed of you. And I was like, "Oh, that's funny. You're ashamed of me, but you're not ashamed of this guy who's like sleeping with 70-year-old, you know, ratchet call girls, you know?" Um, which I had like eight pictures I sent to her of him with these ratchet call girls. Like this came out about him, but she was ashamed of me, you know, who's this mother of of kids who was just trying to be in a a real relationship. So is this all this stuff came out where my mom clearly said, you know, like I'm ashamed of you. And that was the last text message I ever got from her. It was the last message. And that was January of 2023. And so for me personally, that was the hardest relationship I had ever had to let go of. Um it it took me a year to deal with the fact that she didn't want to be in my life. um she wanted to be in my life to everyone else around, you know, to pretend like she was in my life, but that's how she really felt about me >> on her terms. That's >> Yeah. And it was hard for me. Um, so I needed that EMDR therapy really bad be to be able to me that was the biggest heartbreak of my life because not only did that did I had to let go of her because of her and her flying monkeys and all the other people had to let go of my aunts and my cousins and my my my um my sisters and brothers because you know that she you know infiltrated to them you know how she thought about me and I didn't have a chance to like save myself And so now I'm had to deal with this um through this therapy. Took me a long time. It probably took me a good year and a half to finally get to the point where my therapist started to drill in my head, you know, your mother's never been there for you. She's never supported you. She's never probably really loved you the way that you needed. You need to move on from this. And so I finally got to the point, probably was more recently, where I'm just at the point where I'm like, you know what? if you're not good for me, if you're taking other people's sides than your own daughter, like I have to step away. So, I got to the point where I was creating these boundaries finally for the first time in my life, >> I'm there now. I'm I'm literally locked in now. Like, nobody's coming in unless you are really fully supportive of me. And that means anyone who's even trying to get in a relationship with me, any man, nothing. So, you know, of course, because of that reason, I've been single for a few years. Um, um, leading up to a year ago and um, you know, just had to create these boundaries. But that gave me actually for the first time that power to take my power back and be like, you know what, I'm only going to have people that love and support me around me, which meant there wasn't that many of them. Uh, and then I had to go find the people that love and support me like you and other podcasters and other survivors and other people that we've formed now this real family, you know, of support system. Um, that's beautiful and I never really had before. >> I'm I'm sorry that happened. That's uh whenever I hear that and I know like Dee can speak the same way like it just makes me feel really lucky. Like I >> you were so lucky parents, you know what I mean? like >> you're very lucky. It just doesn't I had another guy in here talked about his mom on her the fourth husband or third husband I can't remember was like the main one from his childhood some abusive stepfather and there was a day where she told him I love you but I love him more >> which means she she didn't love her kid that just like doesn't even process to me and hearing what your mom says like literally taking the side of abusers I might add, you know, I think I kind of was like getting at this earlier, but now that you've gone back in therapy and like looked at this, do you feel like your mom maybe never loved you or she just doesn't know how to show or feel love? >> Well, I think that I was always aware of it. You know, I was always aware of it, but I never wanted to admit it. >> You know, I never really wanted to be fully abandoned by her. So, I didn't um that was actually the third time I had seen messages like that that accidentally went to me or that I'd seen. It was the third time. And so, the first couple times I just, oh, it just can't be true. It was just a mistake or, you know, she can't really feel that way. But by the third time, I was like, Lisa, wake up. You know, this this person's not on your side. And I had to realize that, you know, but when when they make it look like to everyone else that you're the problem and not them, that I feel this way and she's the one who doesn't want to be in my life. No, it's not really that way. I'm the one who I feel like has always desperately wanted my family to be in my life and be supportive like I feel like I am of them. Um, but we don't always choose our family. You have a wonderful family and you're so blessed for that. Yeah, you don't. >> To me, that's the most beautiful thing in the world. But it's the reason why I dedicated my life to my children to be the best thing for them. And my my kids know that that mommy's like 100% 100% for them. And they feel safe, you know, they feel really safe. And that's I think what all kids really really need is to feel safe. >> Well, that that that's 100% true. And also like that's the best case scenario. Like what you don't want to do is continue the cycle. >> Yeah. >> The the brave thing is to be able to and the right thing is to be able to break the cycle and >> be the opposite of all the things that you were missing. And it sounds like obviously you're doing that. So that I mean that's the silver lining on the other side doesn't change that these things happen to you. I'm sorry about that. >> Well, people love in different ways. I mean my parents were very functional, you know. They gave me everything they wanted. We traveled around the world. I mean, I had, trust me, everything I ever wanted, you know, and they were great parents. So, I always had that like narrative all the time, like I had the best upbringing, the best childhood. I lived on a boat and I did all these things, you know, but then it's like my therapist is like, "Look, lady, wake up. You didn't have emotional support. Give me a reason. Give me a time when you had emotional support." I never had to realize I never had it. I spent months away, you know? I never knew how to miss people. Like I would I didn't know how to I didn't have that emotion of missing someone. Like I would go away for three or four months at a time away from my family and I never miss them. I would have friends or roomies, you know, who would be like, I just miss my mom so much. I miss my dad. My dad's everything. They would get little notes from him or I miss my boyfriend. And I never really had someone to miss. Like I never had that feeling of missing, you know? I only had it like in the last year. I finally met someone a year ago, >> you know, who we have this wonderful friendship, you know, that this this foundation of, you know, just safety. >> Like finally, for the first time in my life, the first time in my life, and I'm in my 40s now, a safe relationship that isn't based on knowing that guy just wants to sleep with me or just wants my body, you know, which is, you know, a lot of uh women have this type of relationship with men. That is the ultimate compliment from a guy's perspective. The number one compliment that you can ever get from a woman is when they say, "I feel safe with you." >> Yeah. Right. >> It's true. It >> is. Is it true? Yeah. >> And I, you know, I'm sure that sometimes there's people who take advantage of that, which is awful, but it sounds like you've you finally found something where you genuinely feel that way and have seen that exhibited over a long period of time, and that's great. I'm happy for you with that. >> Thank you. >> Have you talked to your dad at all? Is your dad in the same boat as your mom or >> Well, my dad was just the type that never reached out. He never called or texts. My mom my mom always did it. So, she was always the one that I spoke to. So when she um wrote that text message to me in January 2023 and I stopped reaching out I stopped trying um no I didn't really hear from my dad that much after that. Um he came out recently for you know something um with my family and you know he saw a plaque on the wall that said like you know like top entrepreneur or or was it like top um like one of the 10 top people to look out for in 2024. One of the well sorry one of the one of the top influential influential people to look out for in 2024. It was like a headline like that with my picture and he pointed at it and said, you know, I'm really proud of you, >> you know. So, that meant a lot to me. That's all I ever wanted, you know, words of affirmation or my love language. And so, all I ever wanted was to feel like my parents were proud of me, >> you know. I >> never really felt that through my life. So, that that felt good. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> And you still don't have a relationship with your siblings. You said your mom would like kind of pit you guys against each other as kids. >> Yeah. up until Yeah. present day. >> How what's the age gap between each of you? Older brother, younger sister? >> No, my brother's a year younger. My sister is three years younger. >> Okay. I said, "Wow, you guys are pretty close in age, too. You're not tight. That makes sense." >> Well, come to find out, a lot of siblings aren't tight. >> It sounds like though there's a lot of siblings because I was an only child, so I can't speak to this from experience. But I know I see what you're saying there, but I'll see a lot of relationships where siblings aren't tight, but there's >> it's more like um >> mutual respect or >> no, what's the word? Like there's underlying tension, but there's very clear shared lived experiences that they >> can go to. And it sounds like you didn't really have that part. >> Yeah. Yeah, I didn't I never understood that because I had girlfriends that did not have a close relationship with their sisters, but they were sisters. They were still get together, the family, and they're still sisters. Even though they weren't close >> and I know guys that hate each other, you know, their brother, they hate each other, but like whenever they're together and holidays and stuff, they're still brothers. >> You know what I mean? It's just like I never really had that close family dynamic. And we were a very small family, so I didn't I just didn't have that. That's why why I took marriage seriously, why I wanted to have a big family. I, you know, I always wanted to have kids and have that my own family to have, you know, a really close, you know, knit relationship. But, uh, you know, I do have that now. >> You've done that. Yeah. It's awesome. >> Are you are you religious at all or have you ever been religious? >> Well, I mean, I wasn't raised under any religion. My mom was a Roman Roman Catholic, but we weren't raised My father just let us believe, you know, figure it out on our own. I mean, I've I feel like I'm very very spiritual, you know. I do a lot of >> um you know, meditation and I have like this retreats and things I go on. I feel very >> um spiritual, but I'm not like a religious person. No, >> no. >> But do you believe in like a higher power? >> Oh, for sure. Yes. A definite uh higher power. I believe in God. Yeah. >> I'm not a religious person either, but I certainly believe in God and certainly believe in a higher power. And >> I try to live my life assuming I'm humble and not knowing what comes next and I'm going have to answer for things I do here. So do as much good as possible, right? And I think everyone has to kind of have their own relationship with that. So >> however people get to that is great with me. >> Yeah. But I gotta tell you, reading through these files and seeing the things that they're talking about and the things they did and hearing about personal experiences that you've shared today and other victims have have shared and again all the stuff we don't even know about yet. >> It is impossible to not look at this and say there is Satanism going on, whatever that is. I don't even I'm not the guy that can define that. There's way better people in the comments sections that could actually like really define that. But do you have a similar experience when when you read about this and see these things like the like [ __ ] this is like ritualistic in a way? >> Well, Satanism is real. It really is a I mean the Epstein world is a cult. >> It's a cult. is if you look up anything about cults, this is has the exact same the leaders, you know, and the followers and the the major grooming that's going on and and if you look at the rituals and stuff that they do, the pretty disgusting rituals that they do. Um uh it is a form of devil wor worshiping and yeah I mean I think with one extreme you have to have the other and the beautiful light and the god and the peace and you know the the beautiful universe and things that we know are real as well you know >> um I don't really get into all the other religious stuff and people can believe whatever they want to but I do believe there's there's a very dark evil with with also the beautiful light. Um, and I feel like we're all trying to get to that beautiful light right now and try to take some of that evil away now that we're aware of what's going on. We're hoping somehow to move away from it or or shift something that we can't those people aren't able to do those >> hor horrendous things anymore. >> There's there's got to be something. We can't just now know what's going on and not do something about it. what that is and how we're going to get there. I have no clue. You know, that's we're all have to figure out right now. But we have to keep trying because now that we've seen how dark that goes, how could you sit around and just let that happen? >> I agree 100%, Lisa. It's, you know, and I hope something does. But you you've described that look in Jeffrey Epstein's eyes a few times. I believe the word you used was like demonic, like the demon look. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. That shift. Yeah. >> Do you think there's something more to that? Meaning like if demons are real then he was possessed by one or was one? >> Yeah. I mean there's a lot of conspiracy theories about how far that goes with like the lizards and the vampires and all this crazy stuff. Anything is possible. >> Like I don't I don't like to say nope that can't be possible. I don't know. I do know there's some demonic stuff going on there um within him with with G Galen with um with many of them. I mean, it was clear as day if you read it on the files. So, >> and I'm not like, you know, making making anything up. It's it's clear as day. So, >> I don't know. For me, it's very scary and there's a reason why a lot of people have a lot of fear around it. Yes. You know, >> and Les Wexner's even he even talked about it openly in the past. Now >> I guess you could say it's a figure of speech poss meaning possibly but I don't think it is. I think I think it was an honest >> 40 and slip if you will but he talked about in De Can we pull this up? It was in the 80s or 90s there was a big article spread on him maybe in GQ. I could be misremembering it but we'll we'll I'm sure De will find it. It was in GQ. >> Okay. But he he talked about he's possessed by I believe it's called a dick, which is a Yiddish word for demon. >> Boy, >> and literally says it and and it's like it drives him and it and it makes him do the things he does. >> Now, in a court of law, you could say, "Oh, he's just saying he's trying to drive towards wealth or whatever." But I >> He just said that, >> right? When I see the evil >> bachelor billionaire, >> right? When I see an evil of a guy like this, Yeah. Th got it right here. And he's actually saying something like this. It's like DIBB YK or something like that. >> Yeah, they protect him for whatever reason in the files and everything. They protect him. That was one of the things at the Pam Bondi hearing when they I think it was Massie who brought it up, right? >> And he had to demand they release that name on it was his. >> Yes. That there were six names that Roana said after he and Massie went and visited the DOJ to review it and then walked out and and said them. And I still have to do I recognized a bunch of the names. I still have to do more homework on the other ones. The one that I gave a [ __ ] about immediately was that he was one. And it's like >> five meions of >> Yeah. Five mentions. There it is. Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. So, in the Can you just zoom in a little bit, DeF? >> Thank you, brother. So, in the morning, Lesie Wexner became a billionaire. He woke up worried, but this was not unusual. He always wakes up worried because of his dibbe which pokes and prods and gives him the itchiness of soul that he calls shikus. Some sometimes he runs away from it on the roads of Columbus or drives away from it in his Porsche or flies away from it. Can we get the next >> instance? >> Yeah, the next instance. >> That's already creepy. >> He met his dick again when he climbed Veil Mountain and changed his life. All right, let's go to the next one. I want to see where they defined it. All right, here it is. Perhaps it's time to reintroduce Lesie Wexner's Dick, the demon that always wakes up in the morning with Wexner and tweaks and pulls at him. When he was a boy, his father called it tumel, a churning, so he feels quote molten and unformed, pricricked by the spiritual pins and needles. He met this demon again when he was 40 and already worth half a billion when he climbed the mountain. >> Wow. I mean, >> what the heck? >> Yeah, I feel like if I I feel like a lawyer could work with that. >> Why did they even Why did they even print that? >> They did saying >> Okay, so he says that the DICE saying more. What next? He went too fast and got into trouble in 1979. He turned operations over to some other [ __ ] dude and did the buying himself. He was always competitive. So the dick drives him Yeah. >> for more more and more money. Wow. >> That's the other thing with these people, Lisa. It's clear they like when people talk about Satanism in this stuff. It's it manifests not just quite literally through like maybe doing some weird ritual and bowing before a ball or you know the devil, but it manifests in worshiping things and worshiping materialism and worshiping things that you put above the value of humans. >> Yeah. Now, I do have to say this to be fair, just like journalistically. Nancy Mace, >> who I appreciate, has been really pushing some things recently to try to get this out. >> She did say when they released the files, >> obviously they're awful, but she said that she was told to be careful with information you see related to, you know, government reports and stuff like that, like from 2020 and on. And the reason she said this is valid. >> Basically, once this case went mainstream, you know how it goes. Just like just like Harvey Weinstein probably abused [ __ ] 2,000 women, >> but like 40,000 women accused him of it because they could get in on it. Your schizophrenic neighbor could say that that happened. >> So, I will say I have read like some cuz the FBI obviously they [ __ ] up their job a ton here. Their job is to just review any lead that comes in. So you will see dead serious straight emails of just FBI person one to FBI person two saying like all right uh witness claims that blank blank blank and there's no like opinion on it. They're just reporting to their colleague what they said. >> But there's quite a few emails I mean hundreds of them that are way before 2020. >> That's correct. That's correct. I'm just saying for this one right here where it's stated this is a December 2020 one. So I have to say that >> I'm aware of that. I mean I I you know I'm the person well a lot of the survivors are that came forward um you know other victims come forward and they speak to us about the you know uh their assaults and things like that and many many girls or women um I don't know if there's this thing of you know Epstein survivors being like the rock stars these days you know people looking up to them but quite a few have come forward saying they're Epstein survivors and then you get into their stories and then you realize I've never even met right? >> You know, so I'm aware of that. Uh >> remember the 911 lady >> who who like ran the victim's fund and claimed she was there and she literally lived in Spain at the time and was caught years later. >> Yeah. It's ridiculous. >> It's unfortunate because it hurts the real victims. >> No, exactly. I I agree. you know, >> but that's, you know, as you said, there's many emails prior to 2020 between these people where they were talking in code about stuff and you can't even like >> rule out the stuff that it's it's just like it's nuts to me. >> Yeah, >> it's nuts. Now, when when when he died, obviously you said this all kind of came forward. What was your first thought when he died? You're like, did you think there's no way this guy unal aliveded himself or do you think it's possible that he did? >> Um, I mean, the day that I found out was pretty traumatic. I just focused on the fact that he was dead. >> Um, it wasn't until a few months later I started speaking to other survivors and started like thinking about the story and started doing some documentaries and things like that. So, it unfolded over time. Um, I'm trying to think of your question. Um, I think when I really thought about it, there was no doubt in my mind that he was probably murdered and not >> taking his own life. I never thought he took his own life. Um, I just don't think just knowing the type of person that he was that that was something that he would do. I feel like he had so much on so many people that he wouldn't have a reason to and he would have gotten off on it in some way somehow, >> right? >> Technicality or something. They would have made something up for him to get a because I think that he was necessary and needed by for whatever reason he was there. So, um I don't think they would have uh I don't know. So many people say nowadays that he's alive. Like I so many people say that. I mean I I don't even think it's true because only because I hope it's not true. Um and the reason why I spoke out was because he had died. Um I think a lot of survivors are in fear if he really is alive. Not that he can really do anything now, but you never know. Um, I think there's just a lot of fear that comes with this man and just, you know, being in the public eye and speaking out about it just because there's just so many layers of it. >> So, I don't know, but I definitely don't think that he committed suicide. >> Yeah, I I've always I agree. >> And I've always thought he is in fact dead. And as of right now, I still think that. >> Yeah. But once again, it's like after all the crazy [ __ ] we're seeing, I have to say it's on the table that maybe >> he's not. I I had a guy Candace Gib Gibson in here who became friends with a couple chefs that worked on the cooking team >> afterwards. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> And they think he's alive. >> Why? >> They said they said there's no similar to the logic you said. There's like they said a there's no way he would have he would have offed himself because he was too narcissistic. >> And he always thought he could get out of it. But why do we think he's alive? >> Because they believed I Kendis was like unclear on some of it. But essentially like they believed he had too much power and too much influence over too many very important people to not have some sort of outswitch. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's what I would have thought that he always thought that he was going to get away with it. So and be protected. that's the reason why he was able to do all that he was doing. Um, but then again, if he was dead, they already have everything. I mean, someone has those videos from all of his homes that saw everyone who went in and and went out and who went into what door and out of what door. So, almost like what do they need him for when they have everything that he could possibly tell them, I would think is there, >> right? >> So, I don't know. That's a hard one. What if you look at all these people who are like a part of the cover up now and trying to not release this? They're still, as of the time you and I are talking, there's still two and a half million documents that they say they're never going to release. Forget redacted. They're just never going to release them. You know, >> if they're never going to release three more million documents, what the heck is on them? >> That's that's what I'm saying. >> How can it be any darker, more disturbing than what we've already seen? Because that's what it means when they say we're not going to release it. There's a reason there. There's like nothing on it. We're not going to release them because there's nothing on it. Obviously, there is the worst stuff on it. It's so hard to think about because like look at the JFK thing, right? Just with this example, you'll see where I'm going with this. If you could point to and I think again like the government killed the guy. There were high level people at the Pentagon and CIA >> who did it. >> I don't know let's say there's 100,000 people working at those two places at the time. >> Mhm. >> Realistically 99,900 and some of them had no idea that was going to happen that day. >> Mhm. but they work at the Pentagon or CIA or these places that have a name on the door where very highlevel people made the decision under the jurisdiction of those organizations to do it. >> If the American people ever got full proof of that >> and found out those places are shuttered the next day. >> And the reality is for all the horrible [ __ ] that we know organizations like that do. I mean it's been well documented on this podcast the horrible [ __ ] CIA does. There's there are objectively also people there who are actually doing their job and you know stopping a terrorist attack. >> Yes, of course. Exactly. That's the same thing I think. >> So what I'm saying is the weird thing is with something now bringing back to the Epstein case. If it were powerful enough people that like the whole house of cards came down, if all the information came out at once and then like the the [ __ ] country ceased to exist, if I'm sitting on the other side and I know that that's what's going to happen if the information comes out, I I can't even imagine having that decision because you are covering up the most vile crimes known to man. >> Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I don't know with when it comes to cases like this, I just try to look at the facts. So, let's let's say let's say he did commit suicide, why then everything would have just been fine the way everything that the the guard would have been awake, that there wouldn't be missing tape, that everything would just would just be in place, right? But then why are there so many things out of place that didn't function right or why are there so many discrepancies around just a suicide if he really did take his life? >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> It's very strange. >> I mean this all you have to really look at. If it was just so cut and dry, everything would be in place like it was a normal day. But why on that day >> perfectly? >> Everything just didn't go right. Why >> do you see the document in the files where they had the date the day before? >> Yeah. Why is there so many weird They make so many stupid mistakes. >> You know, >> the other thing that's so strange about this case is it reveals how small the elite circles really are. Everyone knows everyone. You can trace a guy in 1974 to someone in power now who's who was his that guy's friend's golf buddy. >> Oh, yeah. Well, because when you make a certain amount of money, when you're in that bracket, you only hang around those people. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And it's a much smaller amount of people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Did you when you would be in in the rooms like where you go in there and it's all these old weird dudes? >> Was there a feeling of like there's them and they look at us as like, oh yeah, they're here, but they're not they're not with us. They're just here at our pleasure. >> Yeah. I mean, of course, they don't really want to get to know you, >> right? >> Yeah. It's almost just kind of weird that you're even there, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Now, what do you think of the whole Gilen thing going on? Because now she just pled the fifth or whatever, which I guess is her constitutional right to do, but she's been sent to a minimum security prison. >> If that was even her, >> if that was even her, >> didn't even look anything like her. >> The nose was definitely >> his whole face. It was so weird. Like that really freaked me out. That was the first time I saw like where is Galen? Where did she go? That is not her. They put like a fake Galin in there >> to answer the questions, you know. This whole thing gets like weirder and weirder. >> It gets weirder and weirder. >> Where do they take her? I mean, I really do hope that's her, but if they took her out of there, like this is just the weirdest. We live We live like in the Twilight Zone, right? It's like you can't make this [ __ ] up. all all the things that like I said used to be like come on now it's like that's on the table and I'm trying like in my >> but these things were were were told years and years ago >> you know people just died once they talked about it y >> you know >> now it was like you can't kill everybody now it's all out there you know >> yeah it's hard like to do it journalistically too cuz you're like you want to stick to all the facts and then you see a lot of code words and stuff and you're Like we don't have full facts, but man, if that were a mob case, that looks You look guilty. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> And how about the fact that all these people >> Yeah. >> feel so comfortable >> in their position in society that they openly send all this stuff on email, open source email to each other. >> Well, they never thought anyone was going to look at those emails. They never thought anyone was ever going to see those emails. They never thought they were ever going to release it, those files. >> All right, let me go one step further with you, though. I don't know if this changes your opinion, but we're talking about billionaires and stuff. What happens with billionaires a lot? >> Mhm. >> They get sued. >> Yeah. >> What happens in civil courts when you get sued? You have discovery, which means your emails are discoverable. I don't think they ever thought epines were going to be. >> There's no freaking way they're writing that type of stuff. Yeah. >> Thinking it's ever going to be out there. I mean, Bill Gates never thought any of that stuff Bill Gates never thought any of that stuff was ever going to be out there. There's no way. I'm sure they fought like tooth and nail to make sure those wouldn't come out. But >> yeah, some of it's out now. >> Well, it's just the only thing that's happening to these men is they're being embarrassed in society. That's all. People get to laugh about it for a little while and they get to go on with their lives. >> I hope not. I hope I hope some of them really do see justice with this. >> Well, that's up to our justice department, isn't it? >> Yes, it is. >> Whether they want to do something about it or not. >> It is. >> I mean, they have they have total capability of doing so. They have everything in front of them to make the right decision and to, you know, go after them civily or criminally. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Let's see what happens. Let's see what unfolds. Well, I really appreciate you not only going through everything, but also being brave enough to speak out about this for so many years now and represent not just as you said the voices for this case who can't speak out or might even be dead and really can't speak out, but also the voices for people around the world and other cases who feel >> pressured to not be able to say anything. It's it's a really important example you're setting every day and and I >> thank you. I hope you can see the uh can't change what happened to you, but you know the positive force you're now using on the other side of it to make some change. I think it's really really amazing. >> Oh, that's awesome. Thank you for saying that. I do see the difference now. And being there and doing this and I I never thought if you told me a year ago that I was going to be at Capitol Hill and at the State of the Union, like all these things, I would never have believed you. But it's it's so important and I you know I can't stop now and I look forward to season two of my podcast where I can have more survivors on and you know and have them tell those stories and have them have their moments as well. >> Yeah. We got to get we got to get Sarah on there. >> That's what we all need. We need we need those moments, you know, that make us feel like we have some justice. >> Absolutely. >> All right. All right. Well, Lisa, thank you so much and I I wish you and all the victims all the best and hopefully you actually see some justice for all the things that happened here. >> Yeah, thank you. >> All right. Appreciate that. >> Everybody else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave, as well as leaving a like on the video. It's a huge, huge help. You can join my Patreon via the link in the description. And you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below. See you for the next episode.

WATCH PREVIOUS EPSTEIN FILES EPISODES: https://youtu.be/MGkQG78NTNI JOIN PATREON FOR EARLY UNCENSORED EPISODE RELEASES: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey CLIPPERS DISCORD: https://discord.gg/8QmWEKJ3BT (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Lisa Phillips is a former Ford model and Epstein Survivor. LISA's LINKS: IG: https://www.instagram.com/iamlisaphillips/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@UCHKwmUQXbKa2bs7qYmlfkNQ FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY IG: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://x.com/juliandorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP LISTEN to Julian Dorey Podcast Spotify ▶ https://open.spotify.com/show/5skaSpDzq94Kh16so3c0uz Apple ▶ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trendifier-with-julian-dorey/id1531416289 ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Lisa visits Epstein at his NYC Mansion, Attacked again 8:57 - Larry Nassar, Where do psychological abuse tactics come from?, Massage keeps silence 19:35 - Epstein’s odd promise keeping, Ghislaine, Epstein House Manager, Epstein Butler arrested 27:51 - Lisa sees Epstein again, Tr*fficked to other men by Epstein, Katie Ford 33:58 - Strange Blind Date w/ Senator & Surprise guest 39:37 - Why Lisa left modeling business, Lisa gets divorced, Raising her children 49:07 - Last time Lisa saw Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, Lisa’s friends & Epstein 56:50 - Call Police?, Diddy, Epstein “presence,” Epstein Blackmail, Underage Women 1:05:04 - Epstein takes passports, Virginia Giuffre, Epstein dies and Lisa’s realization, Therapy 1:16:14 - Why Epstein story important to tell, Parents abandoned Lisa 1:27:43 - Lisa as a great mother, Siblings not close, Epstein Cult, Epstein Demonic 1:39:50 - Les Wexner’s Dybbuk Demon, Epstein still alive? 1:47:36 - 2.5 Million unreleased Epstein Files, House of Cards, the Journey 1:56:11 - Lisa’s Work OTHER JDP EPISODES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: - Episode 351 - Mike Yeagley: https://youtu.be/4nRKuPBFPDY - Episode 388 - John Kiriakou: https://youtu.be/vmDn8YzxVeQ CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 398 - Lisa Phillips Music by Artlist.io