What We Know About UFOs (It’s Stranger Than You Think) | Jesse Michels

For whatever reason, UFOs seem to show up consistently around nuclear installations [music] and they're all like, "We don't know how the hell this happened. There's some sort of phenomena at play." My extraordinary claim is like, "There's something worthy of investigation here." But ignoring the evidence, I think that's a tragedy. So, you hear of all these abduction cases, like let's admit that we're seeing stuff in the sky. You're sort of poking holes in the dam that is the existing paradigm. Just following the data takes you to extremely epistemically weird places no matter what. This is kind of a laundry exclusive here. We're probably not at the top of the food chain and there's like something else going on. Sheesh. [laughter] >> It's really unlikely that they look like not only us, but they look like what a conventional evolutionary biologist would say humans look like in the future. But until scale craft, I think they'll be skeptical and they have the right to be. In fact, there are good reasons to believe they're [music] not aliens from other planets and they're actually more connected to mankind. Looking to ancient stories can be really illustrative of what is possibly going on today. >> All right. Well, if there's any aliens listening right now, hit your boys up. We got some questions. Let's go. Yeah. What's up everyone? Welcome back to the podcast. Today we're joined with a journalist and researcher who has an incredible grounded energy about him exploring quite existential topics from UFOs to non-human intelligence to the limits of what we think about reality. Uh, and I'm just extremely excited to dive into this conversation with Jesse Michaels. Thank you for being here, man. >> Thank you, Andre. I'm very happy to be here. I've been a fan of your show for a while. So, this is very cool for me. >> One of my favorite things to do on the podcast is get to kind, you know, see people's work that I admire online that I see, you know, you've been producing some incredible documentaries like you're releasing what monthly or >> now it's weekly, which is kind of crazy. [laughter] >> Wow. Yeah. >> But yeah, >> that's a lot of output. >> It's a lot of output. And and thank you for calling them documentaries. Some of them do include like, you know, a little more B-roll and editing. And so, it's definitely intense. and we'll see if we can keep up that pace. But [laughter] thank you. >> Yeah, man. No, it's it's incredible work. And I have not done a topic or a podcast on on this topic um solely because I feel like there are a lot of people with interesting intentions or maybe just don't have uh the level-headedness that's required to to explore such such a topic. uh and for most people I think this topic feels a bit impractical in in a sense where it's not necessarily what is needed most for their life you know to dive into these deep rabbit holes um but it is also one of the most existential topics of if we are alone in this universe you know and I think Arthur Cclark is is quoted about you know both being equally terrifying either us being alone or not in this universe and >> so what what's your what's your perspective on that just to start as we you begin to peel back the layers here. Um, how this topic for most seems like uh, maladaptive. I think of you've been quoted. >> Yes. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I I always try to not be actually an evangelist of the topic in person when I see people because and sometimes they don't even know I'm like into UFOs for like a long period of time uh, until it organically comes up or they like see I have a YouTube channel or something. I do think it's maladaptive may be a strong word but like not uh immediately practical for a lot of people and I think like a lot of the stuff you cover on on your channel around spirituality and tools to you know help you know uh uh your spiritual practice daily. I think a lot of that stuff is actually kind of more concrete, more actionable. Uh, you know, if you have Maslo's hierarchy of needs, you'd put that like first, right? Uh, you'd put like the existential questions about like what is the nature of reality like up up at the very top. And like you alluded to at the beginning, uh, you know, of of your intro, it attracts all sorts of, you know, grandiosity complexes, people with these sort of autobiographical like, you know, I'm a a star seed who was sent here. I'm the only one, by the way. no one else is, [laughter] you know, the person and I'm here to enlighten humanity and um and so it's it's full it's it's full of of landmines the space to be honest. Um having said that you are a star seed. [laughter] >> Yeah having said >> having said that I am having said that I'm from Arcturus actually no um uh having said that I do think if you there are a few people or subset of people I think in society who care about like what is this soup that we're swimming in called reality? What is this? And they get into kind of esoteric phys. And you're in you're obviously in the subset clearly cuz I watch your show. >> Love the soup. >> Yeah. you love the [laughter] soup. You want to know what is what is the substrate in which we are kind of operating. And so you've had Donald Hoffman on and you explore why, you know, um seeing reality for what it is is actually maladaptive from like a, you know, survival standpoint. I I think there's this felt sense for a lot of those people and people generally that our understanding of reality is incomplete and off. And I think if you start kind of in that epistemically humble like with that sort of claim then I think beings between man and God uh are a part of that or beings you know if you don't believe in God above man and the kind of you know the chain of consciousness command or you know the hierarchy uh so to speak I think is is a part of that and I think there are all these empirical observable anomalies uh both in science and that the military have observed, you know, um that, you know, aerospace executives are talking about now that people at in the highest ranks of, you know, American intelligence are now discussing very openly, uh that point to our reality being just much trippier than meets the eye, specifically with respect to us not being alone in the universe and non-human intelligence uh being real. And so again, maybe not adaptive uh for somebody dayto-day, but if you want to understand what is going on on kind of a higher level, I think it's dogmatic if you're not incorporating that into your model. >> It does feel like a topic once you start seeing compelling evidence for that is like a rug pull to the materialist reductionist notion of reality. Uh which I think is actually needed now more than ever in the various different ways it can happen. Uh what are your thoughts on that? >> I love it. Yeah, that's a great a rugpull is a great way to put it. I think um it's funny the show is always like compressed into like you know uh this you're a UFO show, you know, but I think really it's a it's what is the nature of reality and what is this paradigm shift we're on the verge on of. And so I think that's you could kind of come up with like an iron triangle sort of framework where you have one one leg uh which is UFOs, the fact that we're not alone. Another leg which is maybe more exotic physics or anti-gravity. So okay, let's admit that we're seeing stuff in the sky. Is it our own stuff, you know, and maybe we've made some breakthroughs kind of, you know, in the classified world. So like one of those is probably true. And then the third leg which I think you explore a lot is consciousness and is this just like an interface and is reality actually much more malleable and kind of subjective and participatory as John Wheeler would say uh than than we realize and I think if you uh can stay at the front of those three things one's got to be right and you're sort of poking holes in the dam that is the existing paradigm uh you know Thomas Coons wrote a book called the structure of scientific revolutions and he's often cited as like the preeminent uh guy when it comes to figuring out you know how scientific revolutions occur. So like one example would be electromagnetism in the 19th century. One another example would be the quantum revolution or general relativity in the in the 20th century. Um, and in all of the cases, you see this law of declining marginal returns at the end of the paradigm where you have all these commentators being like, we're kind of at the end of history. Like, we've written all of the rules of reality, just like there are rules to the game of chess or something, and we're trying to figure out that last piece, and then the whole thing just kind of breaks. And the way it often breaks is the anomalies. So, the anomalies sort of build up. The anomalies don't work within the the model. So they're empirical observations that don't make sense within the given framework. And those sort of build up, they accumulate and then the dam just sort of breaks. And so I think if you kind of are systematically at the forefront of those three things, I think there's something to all of them. But you don't have to think there's something to all of them. You could think they're all 50% likely to be true or whatever. And then in aggregate, you know, you end up with a much higher probability that, you know, we're on the verge of some sort of paradigm shift. I think it really does help when you look back historically, connect the dots, looking back at all the various different uh paradigms that did get shattered because of a new innovation, a stack of these anomalies, um just the world view that was held culturally. And from the point of view of a 25th century human or whatever we are at that point, looking back, um surely we could contemplate what might be some limiting uh perspectives and paradigms that are so prevalent right now. And it feels like we are on the precipice of of many of those breaking. And I think you mentioned a few of those different avenues that could explain these different anomalies from the anti-gravity to the consciousness. And um I want to unpack all of those with you and actually see how many of them are interconnected in different aspects of this all. Uh but for people that are a bit new to this topic, how would you lay out the timeline sort of for the evidence of non-human intelligence, extraterrestrial, UFO, UAP, and um yeah, kind of the the uptick and why, you know, mid-century all these started to become more obvious. >> Yeah. So I'll give you the modern history of UFOs because you could go way back to you know Sanskrit epics talking about vimmanas or you know yeah various wonders in the sky that the you know >> Doan tribe >> Doon tribe exactly talking about Sirius and actually predicting the planet before it's amazing right um uh so uh rather the star system before before you know regular astronomy did um and so yeah you have all these kind of you know uh uh ancient ient civilizational kind of you know possible pieces of evidence. You have you know the wheels of Ezekiel and the Bible of course you know so there's a lot of example in antiquity around this stuff but I'd say the modern history you could kind of date back to Roswell and the start of like the American intelligence agencies and so that history would go something like uh basically the advent of the the nuclear age. So you had, you know, Oppenheimer, uh, you know, uh, uh, really Fermy kind of theoretically cracked the atom, but Oppenheimer did it in sort of a practical way, created created the bomb. And, uh, for whatever reason, UFOs seem to show up around consistently nuclear installations in the late 40s. And that started with Los Alamos, which of course was the original site of the Manhattan Project. It was distributed all over the country, but obviously Los Alamos was where most of the testing was occurring. Most of the personnel uh were. And so you have these crashes. You have a crash that a guy named Jacqu Valet, who's this French kind of godfather of UFO research um actually investigated in 1945 in Trinity uh in San Antonito, which is in New Mexico. You have 1947 which was the Roswell crash which you know you have I think tons of evidence around where you have you know a crash occur uh uh in the town of Roswell. A few beings seem to to to come out and this is now being talked about at the highest levels of intelligence. There's a new documentary out called The Age of Disclosure where uh you know the the uh former director of national intelligence which governs all of our you know intelligence agencies is in is in a movie that talks about Roswell which is pretty pretty crazy. And uh that was in July of 1947. And in September of 1947 you get the creation of you have the National Security Act under Truman. you have the creation of uh the CIA and of basically our kind of modern intelligence apparatus after the OSS and since then you've had basically UFOs showing up across nuclear sites all over the country. Uh so you know Hanford site in in Washington, Savannah River site in South Carolina, uh Malmstrom nuclear base in Montana. Uh you know I could literally talk about individual cases in in all of these places. FE Warren um in Nebraska. Uh so like all over the US UFOs are showing up around nukes. In 1947 uh the head of air material command who basically is responsible for all aircraft development for the air force guy named Nathan Twining writes this famous memo to this brigadier and it's he basically he says like UFOs are not visionary or fictitious. Um and he goes on to discuss the the fact that they're making these sort of crazy right angle turns. they're flying at, you know, at uh mocks and speeds that like, you know, human aircraft simply can't fly. Uh and then he goes on to say at the very end, which I think is really interesting, in the postcript, he says, you know, we actually have the means to start to build things like these, but if we ever did have such a program, um you know, if if if this were to happen, it would have to exist pretty much uh outside of the civilian bureaucracy of government. And and so then you have this idea that UFO crash retrieval programs or reverse engineering programs get kind of put under the secrecy of atomic energy secrecy. You have the atomic energy act of 1954 and in it you have a special definition of nuclear material and it's basically anything emitting alpha beta gamma radiation that's found a like by any contractor anybody is immediately born secret. It's this new clause called restricted data. So it's not like something's reviewed and then classified. it is just classified if it's at all radiological. Um so basically from 1947 to 1952 you have this kind of earnest interest Allah the twining memo which I just mentioned for the the the the American government where they're like we think there's something here we don't know what to make of it. There's a project sign project grudge. There's another project called project twinkle which is this um uh meteor expert from University of New Mexico. his name is Lincoln Leaz and um he basically comes to the conclusion that you have these green fireballs popping up after atomic detonations and actually uh chasing the plumes of the detonations and this is occurring all over. Um and he says I don't know what to make of this but they seem to be intelligently moving you know sort of intelligently propulsed and this is not like a dogmatic UFO guy. Then in 1952, uh July 19th and July 27th, so two weekends, you you have uh a huge wave of UFOs uh uh over DC, and it's called the DC flap or the DC flyover. And there's a famous newspaper uh uh clipping that you can literally see like the headline, it goes um uh uh DC's or white saucers on the White House lawn. And um you know this is like literally being reported on um and there's even an aviation journalist named Curtis Peebles who claims that uh uh Truman was so who was president was so freaked out about this that he ends up on a phone call with uh Captain Edward J. Rupelt um of the Air Force who's running Project Blue Book at the time. So uh that's somewhat apocryphal and I'd love some more verification on whether that phone call occurred but 100% there's like mass hysteria in DC. I've even met with one of the, you know, uh, surviving witnesses of the DC flyover discussing how there was sort of mass hysteria around this. Um, right after that, which is, I don't think this is coincidental, the CIA does a review of UFOs and it's called the Robertson panel and all these top uh, astronomers and scientists in the US under a Caltech physicist named HP Robertson. Uh, they do this thing called the Robertson panel. And this is now declassified, but it was classified at the time, so it was meant to be secret. And they basically come to the conclusion that um you know uh if the UFO knowledge were to be like you know unleashed or people were to basically know that like UFOs were flying with total impunity over our most hardcore defense assets and we admitted that the highest levels of government that would touch off mass hysteria. Especially think about like the Cold War, you know, mindset where like, you know, you're you're in elementary school and you're getting, you know, videotapes, you know, of like, you know, duck dive and roll or whatever because you're so worried that like, you know, an atomic war could start at at any time. Um, so the CIA makes that call. They create this thing called Project Blue Book, which is the official uh UFO investigations program on behalf of the Air Force. And that takes place from 1952 to 1969. And uh basically like in the mandate in the charter of Project Blue Book, you have this this uh uh uh uh basically let's downplay UFOs. Let's rationalize. Let's explain away UFOs. We were talking earlier, you said you're from Michigan. There's a famous case in 1966 where um Jaylen Heinik, who's this northwestern astronomer who's basically the chief astronomer for Blue Book, who later admits that he's part of the cover up and that he didn't take UFOs as seriously as he should have. He, you know, partakes in documentaries about UFOs. Um he's in in 1966 they say that there's this swamp gas uh in in Michigan and everybody in Michigan is like that's ridiculous. Like we saw UFOs, we saw lights in the sky. Um and so in 1966 there is a review by this guy named Edward Condan about uh you know uh uh uh basically what was Blue Book's efforts were they like actually worth it? Did we spend money on anything possibly productive? Um he does this um with the University of Colorado and um he comes out of the the thing saying like I think you know this was a total waste of time. Now, what people don't know is we now have letters between him and an Air Force Colonel, Robert Hipler, where Robert Hiper is telling him, "We want you, we don't want to pay for Blue Book anymore. We want you to say that this is a total waste of time." Uh, a lot of the the cases that they did review, I think 25% are still unresolved. So, like, you know, that's not inconsistent with there being actual UFOs. And then Condan was actually very close with Oppenheimer. uh they studied at Gotten in Germany together in the 20s and he's responsible for writing the McMahon secrecy act in 1946 which gets turned into the atomic energy act of 1954. So he's kind of he's like this total insider in the Manhattan project who is arguably responsible for creating modern-day UFO secrecy in some in some ways. Um, so you you you get that time and time again where a lot of these debunkers who end up stigmatizing the topic for a very long time to come were actually tied in with the early kind of atomic programs in the US. So he's a good example of that. >> And from then on you get this like crazy kind of stigma attached to the UFO topic. You have a couple you have in 1974 a documentary called UFOs uh past, present and future where the air force starts to change its tune and starts to become more open about the topic and Jaylen Heinik kind of admits that you know maybe there is something real here and um Jacqu Filet who I uh you know mentioned earlier this kind of French godfather of ufology is actually Jen Heinik's assistant and he takes part in that in that documentary which is really interesting. And then in the 80s you have the advent of stealth craft. Um so like aircrafts that you know are uh they have their radar cross-sections reduced and um you know they can evade uh ground systems you know if you're the Soviets or the Chinese. And so you have the F-17, the B2 stealth bomber. And I think a lot of games get played around calling those UFOs kind of you know the and the U2 spy plane the SR71 before that I think were mistaken for UFOs. So, there's this constant sort of cross, you know, wiring of like what's ours, what's theirs sort of thing. And it's important to stay kind of hard-headed about that. But you also have some stories that come out in the 80s around like this guy Bob Lazar who claims that he's at S4 Area 51 and he's working directly on Area on uh UFOs on reverse engineering UFOs. And he gets the job through Edward Teller who's father of the hydrogen bomb. And it's this crazy story that's like really hard to debunk. like the best debunkers probably have trouble, you know, uh, denying that he worked at Area 51. And, uh, a lot of the core details seem to check and actually get corroborated over time. And this is Joe Rogan's number one viewed episode of all time as Bob Lazar. Um, and it's still kind of, you know, UFOs are still kind of in the lore, not necessarily like as popular as they are today. Then in 2017, you have this New York Times article written by Leslie Kaine and um basically this outs that there were these UFO uh not necessarily reverse engineering programs but study groups going on um from 2007 to 2012. This program called OAP and uh this took place primarily at Skinwalker Ranch which is seems to be like a weird portal of sorts where like a lot of weird electromagnet magnetic anomalies occur. they see UFOs. It's a show on the History Channel now, which is kind of strange. Um, and then it also goes into detail on these three different uh uh videos. um the the Go Fast, the Gimbal video, and the Nimttz video of 2004, this Nimttz carrier strike group, Commander David Fraver, and a bunch of other witnesses seeing uh this UFO, this tic-tac object off the coast of San Diego, which is this really kind of famous case that a lot of people put weight in because you have a lot of eyewitnesses and then you have um forward-looking infrared video. You have thermal video essentially, >> which tracked at what speed and time? Cuz it was like moving at ridiculous >> ridiculous. I think it was like 7/8 of a second to go from uh 0 to 30 30,000 ft or something like that. So it's just like ridiculous sorts of speeds that are like well beyond you know prosaic and I believe commander David Fraver even worked went on to work at Lockheed and like he's like there's just no way that any and they would be like you know at the top of kind of like stealth craft stuff. >> Yeah. So, and a a lot of those guys are, you know, pretty pretty well-versed on like advanced aviation and they're all like, "We don't know how the hell this happened." >> [gasps] >> So what is it specifically about nuclear sites and particle accelerators that from the perspective of you know extraterrestrial life might be the timing in which they would want to come potentially intervene or observe or interfere with the stage of evolution that humanity finds itself entering. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question and we we'd have to speculate like I don't know but but having said that I think there are some really interesting theories. There's um a great uh Chinese science fiction novel called the threebody problem and it talks about these tricolarian it's called triceran because they live in you know the three body problems based on this like you know three star system um which is inherently an unstable orbit. It's literally like a mathematical problem and >> inherently chaotic. it's inherently chaotic and you have these kind of civilizational resets and cataclysms and so they actually basically have to invade Earth and um mess with the frontier uh uh physics that we're doing and you end up with all these physicists that that die in these sort of mysterious ways. you get particle accelerator um experiments that are giving different readouts on different occasions and so physics feels far more at the discretion of these alien beings than we actually realize. So this is the whole thing's so strange. Um all of that's to say I don't know if that book is a is a you know a real map of reality. I do know it was read at the highest levels of government in these sort of official working groups uh under national security adviser Steven Hadley uh in in uh I think 2006 or seven when the book came out which is interesting. I don't know if it's a map of reality though. And I will say uh if you were an alien civilization and you wanted to minimally interfere without, you know, uh uh necessarily altering timelines, you know, if you have kind of a point of most leverage, an Archimedia lever, so to speak, where would you interfere if you really didn't want to interfere, but you had to minimally interfere? It would be at nuclear sites. It would be at particle accelerators. it would be at the frontier of human ingenuity and science. Science in some ways uh creates the boundary for reality itself like the boundary that we can kind of play and operate in. You know, it really is the limits of our like of our technology that we use. And so why wouldn't you monitor that stuff? You you probably would. Another theory would be that like they're sort of monitoring uh or or mining us for something. So like we think of resources right as like you know you have this whole rare earths thing with China where they do all the rare earth you know refinement or like you know gold or silver or like you know the oil or you know whatever you see what's happening in Venezuela right now which is pretty crazy. Um maybe they think of resources as like emotions or something or like you know like you know they they just need earth is somehow something that they are mining but it's on a level that we don't understand. And there's actually a guy named Robert Monroe who had uh you know is this thing called the Monroe Institute in Virginia that which is still up and running which studies consciousness and he did a lot of contract work with the CIA and he thought that these alien beings were maybe mining us for luch and these were the bad alien beings. He thought that they were maybe factions but the bad ones were mining us for luch which is like literally mining us for bad vibes. And so the point would be, who the hell knows if that's real, but like if you just wanted to maintain some earth homeostasis because you were mining the bad vibes or the good vibes, you know, like you would want the human race to survive and you would monitor nuclear sites, right? Like it's a it's it's a true miracle that like uh the nuclear uh sequences haven't gone off till today. It's it's in it's we're really really lucky. Um, so that's I think and and in a lot of these cases, by the way, there's a great book called UFOs and nukes by Robert Hastings and it is a database of all of these, you know, UFO nuclear cases where you have guys who are on what's called the PRP program where they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen, you know, uh, so they have to be the picture of mental health to get their job as radar operators or missile security, you know, officers or, you know, whatever. They're they're on, you know, they often have secret or top secret clearance. they're on uh nuclear sites, they're next to missiles and um they often report the the missiles going down and uh uh sometimes in one or two cases sequences being activated, but they always get deactivated. Um but it seems like >> there were reports of like a saucer looking thing going around shooting like laser beams at >> Yes. Literally. Yes, literally. That's a great case. So this is um September of 1964 at Vandenberg Air Force Base which is in Santa Barbara and there's a guy named Bob Jacobs who's a photo instrumentation specialist and he goes up to Big Su which is like 80 miles up the coast to view this Atlas missile taking off and uh this dummy nuclear payload you know goes off it goes off the you know um the the the missile and um and you know it's supposed to be this test right Vandenberg is is actually um supposed to just be like a missile testing site. And uh he does the instrumentation. He's like, "Wow, this is, you know, this is cool." Whatever. Goes back uh to to the base. The next day, they're reviewing the footage and they see uh a saucer wrapping around the the dummy nuclear payload and or the re-entry vehicle and lasers being shot at it and it starts to get wobbly and then it it basically leaves orbit because of this UFO which which interferes with it. And um these two uh guys in in in uh tweed gray jackets are like sitting behind Bob Jacobs. They basically swear him to secrecy. They say you're never to speak about this again. They make him sign an NDA. Uh he is then uh he he eventually goes public with this. He's threatened. He's intimidated. Somebody calls him and says like uh mailbox light, what a beautiful site or something. And his mailbox blows up. they delete his records from uh they say he never served in the Air Force. Um and that was literally like as a researcher you couldn't really say he did necessarily serve as the Air Force until the guy who managed him, this guy uh Floren Mansman, this this major in the Air Force comes out in the '9s. I think he's affiliated with Stanford at the time and he's like, "No, Bob Jacobs not only worked for me, he managed 130 people." And he's alive today. you could talk to him like he's this very salt of the earth like not a liar you know um and so yeah that's just one example and it's it's crazy and this is even crazier this is kind of a Andre exclusive here I just interviewed this so that was September of 1964 I just interviewed another guy who's at Vandenberg September of 1964 this guy's in his 80s didn't even know Bob Jacobs and he had an alien encounter where he was guarding this shaft shack next to this uh like launch facility and uh he he gets like cornered by this hooded being and the being like takes off the hood. It doesn't look human. He passes out, freaks out, wakes up on a craft, is on a craft overlooking he he sees through a little hole in the in the UFO that he's overlooking Vandenberg Air Force Base. Uh, his name's Richard Bar, by the way. And he's on the craft with three or four alien beings that look like they seem to have babies heads. It's very sort of strange. Then he comes down and he's back with the original kind of humanoid hooded figure and that hooded figure is like sort of caressing him gently and basically telepathically telling him, uh, we are here to do recon on your nuclear assets. we need to uh basically understand how this stuff works so we can disarm it at every t at any time. You guys are on the verge of destroying yourself blah blah blah blah blah. So it's just great and like again this guy's like you know no me no you know bad mental health history like very lucid and the same month as Bob Jacobs and they didn't know each other. >> Wow. This is trip >> really trippy. Yeah. How so how do you because you've done whether it's like researching through Hastings work and the various others some of which you've mentioned who have quite a swath of UFO sightings and abduction stories and a lot of what are internal subjective experiences that all we can really have for the most part is their their word trusting that what they're saying is sincere is genuine. Um it could very well still be cuz we know how the mind and the brain works emerging like understanding. We are capable of vast levels of selfdeception and hallucination and uh but nonetheless you see pattern recognition over time from completely disperate parts on the planet and you know you can extrapolate things and so I'm just curious what you make of this like profound claims need profound amounts of evidence. Do you feel like that level of evidence is there to justify those claims? >> Yes. Yeah, it's a great question and that's a that's a great quote from the great Carl Sean and I think uh that is the case. So I but here's what I would say is I would walk back the claims of most people in UFO world. Most people in UFO world they're like there are definitely aliens visiting us and they're from these three star systems and you have reptilians and Nordics and great you know and so I would say you know my extraordinary claim is like there's something worthy of investigation here like clearly you know if uh you you go bolder in your claim I do think you need more evidence for which we we don't necessarily have that evidence I think you have to like have an extremely open kind of aperture as far as what conclusion you draw from the evidence but ignoring the evidence I think is a that's a tragedy that's like where then I think you fall into kind of the other side like dogmatic skepticism I think science is a constant process of the sila and kuribbdus the two failure modes are extreme belief in everything everything is everything and you know like a and b can't be true if they're mutually exclusive which like we engage in all the time in UFO world or whatever and then the other side is extreme dogmatic skepticism where the evidence could literally be staring you in the face and you just won't look at it. You won't look at the data set. And I've had arguments, you know, I like did this informal debate with Michael Shurmer. He's a great UF skeptic. Yeah. And like he's really smart. I really like him. But often it's one of those things where >> So I agree with you know your point that extraordinary uh uh claims require extraordinary evidence. I do think a lot of people who aren't in UFO world assume that it's not a repeatable pattern. They assume it's like random person in the middle of the woods or like you know farmer who like sees the thing and then you know they're trying to like they have some histrionic complex and they want to be famous in their local village or whatever. And I think the nuclear thing is a good kind of uh path to go down for the skeptic because science has to be repeatable. And you're talking about a repeatable phenomenon that we were talking earlier before the show. Not only is this happening at nuclear bases across the United States and you have literally declassified documents from the late 40s of the Air Force, the Army counter, you know, CIC, the CIA all discussing this, the FBI, like literally from all these disperate agencies talking about UFOs showing up at these different sites. You could say you could come up with some sort of like, you know, okay, the guys working there are being brainwashed. The documents are being forged. It's like a US deep state thing, right? >> Ops. Yeah. SCOP. Yeah. And then you realize that there's literally a a town in Japan called Leno or it's called Eno rather, spelled L I N O. And it is right next to the Fuka pre Fukushima prefrure where they have their civilian nuclear grid. Um, which is famous for this 2011 spill that they had. And uh, basically a large percentage of this town is obsessed with UFOs. And you have a this thing called Mount Sengon Mori there uh which is this mountain uh uh where where you have all these geomagnetic anomalies. You have all these sightings. You have all these people claiming to see UFOs in certain cases beings. And you have a museum dedicated to UFOs up there. You have a famous 1995 case in Baroce Argentina where a lot of UFOs seem to show up and that's around their civilian energy grid. You have similar claims around Chernobyl. And so when you get into the like, okay, is the like the monk at the Shinto temple in Japan coordinating with the guy at Vandenberg Air Force B like it's like all of a sudden you know in science you have a null hypothesis which is you know that like the baseline you know our baseline understanding of reality like our current model is real and you try to go in to any sort of hypothesis maintaining the null hypothesis for as long as possible. And I think you get into this territory where the null hypothesis becomes crazier than just admitting that there's some sort of phenomena at play. So like what are we saying? There's some sort of cabal that's like controlling the people in Japan that's also controlling the American military-industrial complex. you're you're all of a sudden getting into parasychological psychical levels of control that like itself would be extremely worthy of investigation and like maybe I'm open to but like that's a weird claim unto itself, right? So that I think that just following the data takes you to extremely epistemically weird places no matter what. And then I would definitely not snap it to grid and say aliens from other planets. >> In fact, they're good. They're good reasons to believe they're not aliens from other planets and they're actually more connected to mankind than we think. >> We're going to get into that. [laughter] We'll get into that. Uh just to let it breathe for a second, what would what do you think would happen if it became self-evident to mass consciousness that aliens are real? Like what do you think that would do to the average human mind? >> Yeah. >> Belief systems. I think it it could be extremely aspirational because if you think about a lot of these stories, the aliens seem to be sort of telepathic, have this sort of ability to manipulate reality that you could think of as being used nefariously, >> or you could think of as like really cool. like you could do a lot with the world if you had that sort of parasychological mind meld with you know we say that you know um you know our world is kind of non-dualist or whatever I I think I could say that safely on this show you know um you know and other people would you know wholeheartedly disagree with that and maybe you know kind of conventional dogmatic physics circles or whatever um but if you could go even farther than that and like the latency or bandwidth which with which you affected reality with your mental state was actually you know far greater in the case of the bandwidth and far lower in the case of the latency. I think that would be really cool. Um I do think uh a lot of people are into this topic because they want some sort of forbidden knowledge and there is this sort of left-hand path that you get into with you know anything that is sort of secret or a cult or whatever which is the wrong motivation and you never get the thing by like having that sort of motivation. So I think it's important to be cognizant of that. But if there is uh you know are there beings between man and God I think that's aspirational and you know is that the next evolution of mankind that is sort of atmporal that has sort of you know access to a time agnostic realm where you're not subject to Zeno's arrow of time where every time you get out of the stream you're in a different place and we're kind of you know speaking of soup we're stuck in this kind of epistemic soup of you know um of time essentially. Uh uh uh you know, I think all of that's like really exciting. I think it's humbling because it's like, okay, what is this reality we're in? Maybe it's actually more limited in scope than than than we realize, you know, and that obviously dovetales with, you know, Don Hoffman and some of the other people you've had had on where physics is more of an adaptive interface for us. It is not it's the map. It is not the territory. Um, so you end up with all of these like interesting kind of second order questions that come from it that I think are extremely healthy to ask as a human being. Hey guys, we'll get right back to the show, but first a quick share. I have been loving this company, Momentous, for their rigorous testing when it comes to the purity and efficacy of their products. For example, their big three stack, which includes the vegan protein, omega-3s, and creatine. They have great formulations and are all NSF sport certified. One product I love from them the most is the creatine. 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Back to the show. There's something incredibly humbling about the exploration of the real very real possibility that human beings are not at the top of the universal food chain so to speak that there that life is I think it's all day in JBS day that said reality is not only stranger than we suppose but stranger than we can suppose. >> Yes. And I think there is this inherent um misguided effort to think of non-human intelligence in the ways that we think of human life. Like we have this tendency to think of UFO crafts operating the way like an an advanced airplane would, you know, traversing across the universe in the way that we would through space and time. Um, and so yeah, what what what comes up for you when we stop thinking about extraterrestrial life from the human centric lens and uh that it that non-human intelligence may very well look or act or behave absolutely nothing like we do. Yeah. I mean I I think that's probably likely like we are pro we're probably seeing I mean Allah the Hoffman stuff not to quote him too much but it's like we're pro like >> we are probably not seeing reality itself we're probably seeing kind of an adaptive low-level version of reality and like you go back to Plato where like you're seeing shadow play you were seeing similacra of something sort of higher going on and so I think you know exploring this stuff changes you as well. And that's maybe the dirty dirty little secret because you always in science want to separate the observer from the observed. I think that might collapse as a paradigm. And and that's why I see this whole thing as a paradigm shift, kind of epistemologically, not just a scientific paradigm shift, because in science, you're supposed to be this like perfectly um this perfect measurement sensor like like you're almost supposed to rem remove the human and it's only supposed to be like these, you know, like an electron microscope that detected the thing or radar or whatever. And you can't trust your eyes as a human. And I think a lot of this stuff involves actually systematically exploring the human psyche and uh just human often oneofone phenomenological experience and not discarding that. And I think a new scientific model will have to incorporate that. Allah Rudolph Steiner who talks about spiritual science where inner phenomena are just as valid as outer phenomena. And I think the the interesting thing about studying a lot of the UFO stuff is you're you're really out of your depth no matter what. And I think if you're not admitting that, then you're kind of this like grandstanding, you know, often chill in the in the subject. And when you're when you're when you are so out of your depth and you're sort of you know really in the dark you're in sort of Plato's cave or whatever uh you really have to audit yourself and you have to audit your own biases and you have to become you can't make these bold claim like the second you make a bold claim like you know like somebody debunks a little thing and you have to be like okay cool like I'll follow the evidence there and so I I do think that's this extremely important part of the whole the whole topic is like your own growth process as you kind of look into and discover this stuff. And so going back to your your question cuz I want to answer it. You know, it's like watching the the, you know, the uh the the movie Arrival, which is ba based off of that Ted Chang, you know, sci-fi story where it's like time and and these sort of these like seephalopods or whatever that like and like time is a weapon and like, you know, the ability to communicate with that thing is going to be so primitive for us and they're going to be having to like understand our primitives and like adhere their language to us. So you hear of all these abduction cases like John Mack who was the head of Harvard the Harvard psychiatry uh department in the '90s started to systematically study alien abductions and you hear about all these abductions and I think you can't take them at face value. I think the only thing you could take seriously on you look for patterns of course, but you almost have to say like whatever's going on has this like 360 demonic control. Like it's like Daycart's demon where it's like they have control over your sort of senses and your whole sensory apparatus. And that's a very weird place to go, you know, [laughter] but I think it kind of it it leads you there. At least in that moment in time where a person's experience a thing like that or they experience an abduction. Who knows whether what they're seeing is the true architecture of of you know what's happening. And you you can say there are you know classic motifs people do see. These gray alien beings do seem to show up consistently. you know, these sort of perfectly chiseled Nordics seem to show up, which is really strange, right? The reptilian thing actually there there's some evidence out there that like people experience abductions with these sorts of beings, but I I mean I think you're in really uh weird territory if you start to claim that like we know that these beings come from this discrete race from the star system. I think you need a lot of evidence for that and I don't think we have it. So, like all I can say is like we're we're Yeah. We're probably not at the top of the food chain and there's like something else going on. >> Yeah. Or even the conception of a food chain would be hilarious, you know, from the perspective of an interdimensional being. [laughter] >> I think like >> they've transcended that. >> Yeah. Um and that the medium in which an non-human intelligence would traverse would be like we said through the way we perceive uh traversing the cosmos through Newtonian physics, you know. Um, I'm just curious because you you seem like you really have this balance of empathy and epistemic rigor when it comes to studying all these different abduction stories, for example, which sounds so out there, especially for somebody who's not never had a transpersonal subjective experience. Like, it just sounds like, you know, quacky stuff. >> Yeah. >> You know, and yet you see you hear reports from people that seem very level-headed, that seem very sincere. you know, it's tough to gauge someone's level of what they're trying to maybe garner from something, but uh yeah, what I know you've come across pretty compelling, you know, stories from from uh various different accounts and so uh maybe you could like lay out one or two or just like, you know, and in in doing so share how you kind of think of having that balance of empathy and and the rigor when it comes to that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a great framing because I think in isolation like most cases are probably you can probably corroborate them to the point of being like there's probably something that happened there and then I think they'll always be skeptics in any individual case. And I would point people to there's a uh Edgar Mitchell was an Apollo astronaut um in the Apollo 14 mission and he came back and he started basically systematically studying this stuff cuz he thought we were not alone in the universe. And so I'd point people to the free Edgar Mitchell database of abduction cases and they can go through a lot of these cases and they can talk to a lot of these people themselves. I think it's probably important if you are somebody who is earnestly interested in the subject to not just take my word for, you know, any of these sorts of stories and to try to meet, you know, experiencers themselves and be like, you know, what happened like and and go into like, you know, are you sure you're not making that up? And like be as skeptical as you sort of want. But I don't know, a couple of really famous cases are you have Travis Walton in the mid70s. He was in um uh a national park in Arizona and he was uh actually with a bunch of friends and they were they were loggers and they had uh finished uh uh their work at the end of the day and they see this weird bright light in the object. They're all in the car and he's still out and >> in the sky. Bright light in the sky. They they see a bright light in the sky, but then they see it on the forest floor and they see it near Travis and Travis then touches the craft and gets blown back and um you know it it almost seems to like zap or hurt him where there seems to be this kind of electromagnetic you know emission or field around this craft. And the five guys are freaked out. They go back into town. uh they uh basically are like, "We don't know what to tell you, but this is what happened to this guy." One of the guys had actually been in a fight with Travis that day. And so, you know, he didn't have any incentive to like say that like, you know, this guy is being truthful about like this UFO abduction experience or whatever. They're all like people are like skeptical also of this guy and a lot of the people cuz they're like, "Are like are you sure like you didn't get into a fight with him, you didn't kill him?" you know, they think like they were like murderers at one point. They all take lie detector tests and are like grilled by the local sheriff and stuff and people are like, "Okay, maybe something happened." Like this is actually weird. Like these guys are like, you know, passing the tests and they seem to be really consistent in their stories. Uh Travis is then found um I want to say 5 days later, but he has like a full grown beard, so it's like as if like more missing time had occurred. and he had been basically on this craft with an operating table with both grays and actually Nordics. So you have like two, you know, two different kind of uh uh alien archetypes involved in his abduction. And uh yeah, he comes back down and he basically says that they did like surgery on him and to this day it's one of the it's you know Fire in the Sky is this famous sort of um you know documentary that's been done about him. my friend Chris Ramsey who has a great uh he actually had the biggest magic channel on YouTube before uh going into to UFO stuff and he did >> a good crossover there. >> It's a great crossover because he actually like shows how a lot of the magic's done and he debunks a lot of magic. So a lot of magicians kind of hate on him because they're like don't show the special sauce or whatever. And so and he's extremely good when it comes to uh debunking stage craft. And in fact, he took me to a magician a magic conference with like some of his top magician friends. Like the guy that like has worked with David Blaine for 20 years. Like these guys are like to me they're like literal magicians. And he would consistently be like, "No, this is, you know, he wouldn't show me the method cuz that's like not how you're not supposed to do that in magic." But he'd basically be like, "There's a method here, there's a method there, there's a meth," you know, and like he would do that a little too much on his channel and so he'd get in trouble on that. and he was always kind of a UFO freak. And so that got him into um uh starting Area 52, which is this channel. And he he does this whole deep dive on Travis Walton, and um does a long interview with him. And he's just this one of these guys who's like consistent in his story since that time. He also went on Rogan and you know just continuously sort of tells the same story. And it's it's one of these archetypal stories where the person is sort of operated on you know he's on this sort of a you know operating table and uh it's it's really strange. It's almost as if often gameamtes are collected as well. So like there's like sperm taken or eggs taken. It's almost as if, you know, they're kind of anthropologists or they're zoologologists or whatever and they want like tissue samples or genetic samples and they want to see what's going on, you know, uh uh with us. Another case that I love is in 1977 at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota. So, this is another nuclear case. There's a guy named Mario Woods and he um is a missile security officer and uh he's at this launch station November 5 is what it's called and I think he's hanging out playing pingpong like at a lot of these nuclear bases like not a lot's going on for like most of the time like you know ideally right and uh so he's like having kind of like a lazy evening and he sees these lights in the sky and uh he thinks that it's you know some sort stealth bomber like waving the lights to like say hello. And so he goes out, he like waves and he's like, "What is that?" And he has a partner, you know, it's like some sort of buddy system. And his partner's a guy named Michael Johnson. And uh they go out and they try to like track what's go because the the alarm goes off. So it's like something's in their restricted airspace. So he's like starts to freak out and he's like maybe this is more serious. And so they they follow this thing with their truck. Uh they stop the truck, they see basically uh this like what he says he always says it's the size of a of a a Walmart is what he said. So this huge you know like like fireball this red fireball and he freaks out and he's like what is this thing? He sees four beings which look like little gray aliens walking towards his car and they're saying over and over again telepathically do not fear. Do not fear. Do not fear. He's completely paralyzed as is Michael Johnson. And this is, by the way, a common trope, the do not fear and the being paralyzed. And >> interesting combo. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Don't don't worry about it. You're you're just you're you're okay. You know, you're paraly. You can't move anything, but can't fend for yourself. Yeah. It is ironic, which is why it can't be taken face. You know, it's like who knows whether they're good or bad. I don't know. But they're saying that he blacks out. He wakes up 9 miles away from the base. Um, and he doesn't know what happened and it's and it's uh now all of a sudden the sun's coming up so it's dawn and he's freaked out and it's like uh 9 miles away from Lake Newell or something which is like you know yeah it's it's far from the base and so he's like what happened? I don't know what that this is so weird. He ends up getting checked in what seems to be kind of a routine protocol by the the base and they're checking his teeth and they're doing all sorts of tests on him which imply that they have some sort of familiarity that this thing happens a lot and then he retains his clearance and continues working for the DOE for another 20 years by the way. Has no idea what happened that night. Gets a hypnotic regression which we should get into as well because that's how a lot of these stories come out. which gets to your question of like you know is that a valid form of memory retrieval or are you like going to make stuff up. I would say it pattern matches to any extremely traumatic experience somebody you know if somebody experiences child abuse or something like that often those memories get extremely repressed. It's adaptive for you to repress those memories and they come out in techniques like hypnotic regression. So he ends up getting a hypnotic regression and again he's on this craft operating table. It's he calls it a beehive of all these little gray aliens, but they're working for this kind of taller gray alien, which is also a common architecture is you have like a taller gray and they seem to have some sort of superiority over these little gray worker bees. And according to a lot of people kind of in and around the UFO legacy program, whistleblowers like David Grush, who've testified before Congress now, they actually say that a lot of these beings are almost like biological androids. Like they're actually more robotic in nature. And so they might not even be conscious. Like we are now experimenting as a human civilization with programmable biology. Um, you know, there's a great uh professor at TUS named Michael Levan and he talks about the bioelect electricity of the body and voltage gated ion channels and you know is the human more of like a malleable computer than we than we think and maybe we are a container for a soul or something. I don't know how it works, but I do know we're like looking more into this now. And so if you have this cardv three or four, more advanced civilization than us, maybe they've figured that out in the case of these grays. But that's another crazy case where you meet Mario. I've had him on my show in like just earnest salt of the earth guy, zero mental health history before or after extreme level of detail in which he's able to recall the story. uh gets mad actually if people say the hypnotic regression part was real because he wants to stick to the facts. And again just part of this this nuclear architecture where just again and again and again you literally have 170 of these guys and if there are 170 of them who literally they were like subject to the most extreme secrecy protocols there's probably preference falsification you're probably talking about thousands. >> Yeah. So yeah, >> when it comes to actually working with retrieved proposed retrieved crafts and non-human biologics, what uh what what's like what's the most mind-blowing thing that that you learned and talked about in your conversations with him? Um because that's uh that to to most people is like what would really move the needle in terms of the scientific approach of like if you have an alien being that was apparently worked on and crafts that were retrieved you know um Nolan's you know uh small samples of >> uh what exactly were they again? like magnesium and bismouth and other pieces that seem to have isotope ratios that don't match asteroids or anything on Earth, >> right? So like that stuff points like for the very skeptical mind I think into into really verifying it. Um so just for people that don't know the context with Grush and the non-human biologics. >> Yeah, totally. So so David Grush is this kind of seinal UFO whistleblower uh because he compiled he was at the National GOC. He's a 14-year intelligence officer. He was an Afghanistan combat veteran. He handled the presidential daily brief. So what the president like reads as far as his you know vantage point for what's happening in the world. David Gush was the kind of you know courier slash you know like probably part-time editor of like what you know what's going on you know with with that which I think is you know should should add credibility. Um, everybody who has, you know, come out who was a former colleague of his says he's like beyond reproach and he has level one autism and and has like literally like an autistic level of of of detail uh when it comes to all of this stuff. In fact, he gave the uh intelligence community inspector general Thomas Mannheim uh hundreds of pages about these reverse engineering programs in front of Congress. You hear, you know, AOC literally asking him, grilling him, saying, "Do you have the addresses of these warehouses where these UFOs are being kept?" And he goes, "Yeah, get me into a skiff, which is a a secure compartmentalized information facility where you can, you know, basically give classified information. It's basically a Faraday cage." And uh he's like he's like just put me in there and I'll tell you, you know, and so this is this extremely frustrating thing for me too because I I don't want like you know he's a friend of mine and I like I I I want to take him at face value. I do think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So I think you have to rank the like, you know, hundreds of nuclear, you know, whistleblowers of like something phenomenologically in our airspace being real probably above the idea that we have literal reverse engineering programs because of the amount of data we have on one versus the other. But like what frustrates me so much is like if you're in the government like can you collapse this into a reality? like get the pages that were given to the IC inspector general and review them and you know I've met with some people in and around the current admin and like I'm like telling I'm like cuz and they talk about the UFO stuff casually like they kind of know that there's they're there and I'm like get your hands on those pages and figure it like I can't I don't have a security clearance so I'd be happy to know either way you know like I really like we really should just follow the truth wherever it leads us. Um, but I do think you have a guy who's it's kind of hard to argue with his credentials and he's providing tons and tons of pages of documents. So, like let's go to the documents and like figure out like what what's going on. And then you mention and then you have stories that comport with that. So, you have like Bob Lazar for example who I mentioned where we know he worked at Los Alamos which was you know that was a question initially when he came out. Um, I think it's clear he worked at Area 51. He, you know, uh, uh, talks about G& Airlines and Area 5. Area 51 wasn't a thing before Bob Lazar, so he knew details around its existence that, you know, other people didn't seem to know. Uh, I think he met with Edward Teller, who was the, you know, uh, creator of the Hbomb, who was probably implicated in a lot of these kind of spooky science programs. Um, and so his story is really fascinating. And again, it's one of these stories where you could change a detail. The final Jenga block would be, okay, we have our own anti anti-gravity crafts versus and you're doing tech protection by calling it alien. Like, okay, I'm open to that. And I'm I'm very deep on like anti-gravity stuff, too, which I view as a hedge because one of them's got to be right, you know? Um, and so again, it's one of those things where like I'm I'm I'm open to the the other thing being right, but he seems to continually be corroborated over time as people sort of, you know, question him. I have a friend um who's making a documentary on him called Project Gravitar, and I think he's uncovered some pretty good evidence that S4, which is the specific area on Area 51 that really nobody knew about before Lazar, um, exists, and that it's this underground facility there. Um, so yeah, I think you have a few stories and then you have David Grush who I think is pretty beyond reproach. And then the thing you mentioned, Gary Nolan, he's a Stanford microbiologist. Um, you know, he's a really, you know, well-aclaimed kind of professor, tenur there, and he works with Jacqu Valet, who I've mentioned earlier, who's this French godfather of ufology. He's actually depicted by France Rufo, or he's uh he's he's played by France Trufo in Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind. He's this very interesting kind of almost mystical figure in UFO research and he gets he publishes his address online. So when people you know see crashes they'll literally send the material to him. He'll send that material to uh Gary Nolan to do material analysis and mass spectrometry on them. And Gary Nolan does mass spectrometry on one of these crashes which uh I believe crashed over the beach in Ubatuba in Brazil and he goes, you know, I these contain isotope ratios that don't naturally exist on Earth. They don't naturally they're not man-made. Like I don't know what the hell or they could be man-made, but they you would require you would need centrifuge access and like a lot of money to do that. I think I think the crash occurred in like the 50s or 60s. So you need like a crazy scientific level of access. And then the question is why? Like what what do you you're like exploding a thing that you centrifuged the like isotope ratios on above the beach in Brazil. Like doesn't make sense. Um so yeah, but then it's always one of those things where it's like I you know until people see like a full scale craft I think they'll be skeptical and they have the right to be skeptical and I think the the thing they should be asking for is like let's collapse it. you have like, you know, like a wave function in quantum mechanics. Like, let's let's let's collapse the wave function. You know, we have this probability distribution of the UFO thing. Like, if you're the current administration, look into David Gush's documents. We'll get right back to the episode. A quick share. If you have been listening for a while, you probably know I love my health tools. And one that I have really enjoyed over the years is red light therapy. 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Back to the show. It opens up deeper into the rabbit hole of observing this time around the Manhattan project, how physics might have quietly forked one into nukes and computation and another one uh less potentially known into spaceime and gravity. And so uh what because I know you love this topic and it's and it's a I love how you refer to it as a hedge [laughter] >> but it's a it's a fairly promising one when you look into the electrovitics and towns brown and um so kind of just a high level overview for people that don't know what could have potentially been happening at that time that could have led to where we are now. >> Yes. So I I I think some of the most interesting and fruitful places to look for the next paradigm of science are going down the tree trunk of science and finding another branch. And so like look to see where we went wrong. And I think where we went wrong in my personal opinion is string theory and quantum gravity. And it's this idea that we can. So if you have two imperfect maps in the form of general relativity and quantum field theory, the idea that those are not abstractions and heruristics on reality and that their reality into onto themselves and we can force fit those maps which are probably jagged and not onetoone correlations with actual reality is to me the epitome of hub of human hubris. And there's a great actually science writer and physicist and she has a great YouTube channel and her name is Sabina Hosenfelder and she wrote a great book called Lost in Math and it's about how physics today is lost in these abstractions where we're talking about ridiculous numbers of dimensions and but then you can't you can't do anything with it. You can't do anything with string theory. And so I think the two again if you go down the tree trunk find different branches. I think the two branches which are fruitful and interesting would be one the creation of quantum mechanics and parasychology and the the idea that the mind might have something to do with wave function collapse which all of the godfathers of quantum mechanics flirted with. All of them did. And so you can talk to like the modern kind of priestly citadel of quantum mechanics people like Sean Carroll and they'll say that's ridiculous. But it's literally an unfalsifiable claim on both sides. It's a hypothesis that your mind doesn't you know collapse the wave function and it's a hypothesis that it does. Um and you know the idea that superp position of what you're measuring doesn't exist in the detector and then your mind is collapsing that is it's impossible to prove either way. So that's really interesting. thing and then what you're getting at is I think fascinating which is so if you look at what created string theory it's which is basically the uh need for us to quantize gravity so we can uh reconcile the strong force the weak force and electromagnetism on a quantum scale we cannot reconcile gravity so you have macroscopic reality which is like me you spaceime celestial bodies and that is general relativity which is essentially a theory of gravity And then you have quantum mechanics and the two just don't line up. And what we've been trying to do since 1957, you have University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, uh, Institute of Field Physics, basically convening all of the world's top physicists and it was, you know, uh, Richard Fineman, John Wheeler, Peter Bergman, uh, Freeman Dyson, like guys who in conventional physics you would say are like, you know, the godfathers of like what we are swimming in today academically and they're all meeting about you know how can you reconcile gravity in the quantum like how do we how do we sort of figure this out and uh at the time general relativity was actually seen as kind of a novel curiosity and then it became like much more of like a you know became much more of a like the dominant paradigm kind of after this and this need to quantize gravity was kind of popularized at this conference like that became kind of the mandate of of physics at the time. Now, here's where things get really trippy, really interesting. The guy who was convening that whole thing, who was the patron of the Institute of Field Physics at the University of North Carolina was a guy named Agnu Bonson. And the president of the University of North Carolina at the time was a guy named Gordon Gray. Gordon Gray oversaw the kangaroo courts, which stripped Oenheimer of his Q clearance. He was an extreme intel insider and very high up not only at the CIA but a part of uh at the time what was called the 5412 commission which was basically this inter agency coordination group which you could call kind of like I think they ended up being somewhat responsible for the death of JFK indirectly like this like breakaway like intel organization which initially was so the president could gain plausible deniability on doing things that might not be the best look for him probably domestically and I think it turned into this runaway kind of continuity of of of government group. But so Gordon Gay is literally president of UNCC at that time uh you know uh North Carolina. And then Agnu Bonson who literally wrote a science fiction book called The Stars Are Too High about man-made UFOs uh right before he died in a freak plane accident is overseeing all of these top physicists uh and they are looking into gravity. It's a conference on gravity and Lewis Whitten and a lot of you know Lewis Whitten who's the father of the greatest string theorist of our time Ed Whitten who worked at Martin Corporation's like secret anti-gravity outfit is there this you know and so and he if you email him to this day he goes I can't talk about anti-gravity or whatever like he'll freak out about that and then what's really crazy is in the back room while this is going on while we're trying to figure out theoretically what's happening with gravity and By the way, Wright Patterson Air Force Base, right airfield, which is center of all the UFO lore, they're also they have a theoretical physics group looking into anti-gravity. This whole era in the 50s is obsessed with anti-gravity. While they're theoretically looking at it, you have Agnu Bonson, the Institute of Field Physics, North Carolina, the same exact group funding this guy named Towns and Brown doing experiments around anti-gravity. And you have video of Towns and Brown in the lab popping champagne ostensibly because he got a positive result around these anti-gravity experiments. And a year before that, you have him doing similar experiments in a vacuum chamber at the in the called uh it was called the Montgier project in 1956. And you have a French technical representative named Jacqu Cornon. We have him on audio on his deathbed saying that the experiments worked and you have Agnu Bonson himself saying very weird things happen at high meggaolts across short distances. Um and what he's talking about is essentially Towns and Brown's work that that's was what he did these capacitor experiments high voltage low current short distances. And so you have this, you get into these and and then I mean you go you go on for for so long about this like the current electrostatics lead scientist at NASA or the guy that just left. He was the electrostatics lead at NASA for decades. His name is Charles Buer just left to start a propellantless propulsion program company called Exodus Space and he claims that it's based on Towns and Brown's work. So you have all this like smoke after that, you know, in the 50s that like Towns and Brown stuff probably worked. So then you get into this like really interesting philosophical, you know, kind of uh uh uh question of was physics was public physics sent into a culde-sac and sent down the wrong path either intentionally or emergently or unintentionally. I'm definitely not smart enough on the physics to say that like we were given a 2D container padded walls version of physics that or if that's even possible. Can you like sigh up the physics community in such a coordinated way? Like that might be beyond belief for me. So I don't know how this happened. >> Something that we could continue to make progress in that wouldn't bear fruits potentially. >> Yes. Did that happen intentionally or was it unintentional? Uh I I don't know. There's a guy named Eric Weinstein who talks about it a little more as if it happened intentionally and was seated and he can speak in these more highle theoretical physics terms and you know I'm friends with him and I love him but like I I don't want to make that claim. I do want to make the I think still pretty bold claim that like private vital physics went behind the iron curtain of secrecy and classification. And it's kind of crazy to say that I it didn't like of course in a world of, you know, the atomic era, cold war era stuff where you have Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, you know, getting tried for stealing, you know, you know, secret. You have the Red Scare, you know, stealing atomic secrets. You have Klaus Fuches. The whole reason the Soviets had their atomic program is because for 9 years he was giving them nuclear trade secrets. You have all these, you know, kangaroo courts around. Oppenheimer was stripped of his Q clearance because of this stuff. Of course, you're going to get secret science and you're going to get public science, especially in the world of, you know, where science is getting more and more dangerous as an art form. You know, like the you split an atom like you get into pretty destructive territory. get into weird modalities and you get I mean you can get into other the whole other conversation is how splitting an atom and doing you know nuclear controlled nuclear fusion might be actually threatening to the establishment in other ways and again there are plenty of I don't want to play that role because there are plenty of people in the UFO community who are like sure we're like hiding you know free energy machines that will like you know allow us to like live on clean energy and like get rid of you know you know petrol gas forever and like I don't I'm not saying that um but what I What I am saying is you have this really interesting experiment in the in in the ' 50s around which is essentially what would get us to interstellar travel. I don't think even conventional physicists, even conventional aerospace people would all admit that Elon Musk's SpaceX stuff is like it's a recruiting tactic. Like we are not going interstellar. Maybe we can colonize Mars. I do think it's an amazing company. like he resuscitated what NASA was doing single-handedly um by literally like traveling to Russia and like looking into their like liquid fueled rockets like amazing but you can't go interstellar like literally like do the math it doesn't work. So I think some of that tech got locked up and now is what we're seeing and is this modern UFO craze just anti-gravity stuff? I don't know. Is it the NHI stuff? I'm not sure. Is it consciousness? I don't know. But I think if you stay at the forefront of all three of those things, I think it's like it's hard to go wrong. >> It's wild, man. So the the potentially forking of physics into this behind the closed door exploration of electrogravitics and anti-gravity. Um where if that was the case, who is who do you think is like likely pioneering protecting the sort of physics science crafts and where would they be like located? Yeah. You know >> I think the department of energy if you look at our most frontier weapons testing it is the department of energy. This is something that's a constant source of frustration with me because I've had pretty high up people like in government say like you figured out this crazy thing like there's probably a there there or whatever. I'm like then what is going on? Because I like there's there's one line in the biography of Towns and Brown who's this it's this amazing book called The Man Who Master Gravity by a guy named Paul Shatskin and he's this just extremely enigmatic interesting guy. He literally parachutes in behind enemy lines to Nazi Germany to retrieve some tech at the end of the war. He's close friends with William Stevenson and confidants with William Stevenson who is uh Winston. He's Winston Churchill's super spy. He's the inspiration for Ian Fleming's James Bond. And he basically, you know, is in charge of the MI6 and helps form the CIA with Wild Bill Donovan in the US. So like spooky interesting figures. And you know, Towns and Brown is dealing with Curtis Lame who's chief of staff of the American Air Force. He's dealing with all he shows up at at uh Martin Corporation the year that skunk works starts. So Martin Corporation is pre-locked Martin what everybody knows today as our you know one of our biggest defense contractors responsible for all our stealth craft. And the year that skunk works their most secretive R&D division forms. He happens to start working there which is really interesting. He's like this like zelig or Forest Gump character in mid-century American politics and military and science where you're like what is your deal like and I think that you know if you look at again what we were talking about with the atomic energy commission and you know special definition of nuclear material where if there's anything radiological it gets sort of borne secret national labs are often placed around these nuclear sites kind of strategically Where would you be working on the most frontier weapons science? It would be next to nuclear assets. Makes sense, right? You just colllocate them. You have like a lot of secrecy around both. You create these sort of complexes where you have, you know, nuclear and you have that sort of stuff going on. And so my suspicion would be that it would be DOE related. And there's a there's a line in that um book about towns and brown which freaks me out. And it's like, "This makes an Hbomb look like a child's firecracker." And that's freaky. And so my question when I'm in rooms with, you know, often often it's gaslighting. Occasionally it's like, you know, with these sort of higher up people, it's like, yeah, you know, there's a there there on the the Towns and Brown stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, do we have a framework? Like if we're at par with China on this sort of stuff and Russia on this sort of stuff, it's a tragedy that this isn't being used on civil side infrastructure. We're in LA right now. If you look at LA and you were to flash back 40 years, it's the same LA. It's the same exact infrastructure. Like the world of the Jetsons did not come to fruition, right? So you're telling me that we have something where, you know, an experiment where electromagnetism is the input and some sort of gravitational perturbation or propulsion is the output and that's we're just sitting on that. Okay. Like maybe it makes sense if you have the extreme dual use implications of, you know, turning the H bomb to the child child's firecracker. Like I would stop talking about it tomorrow if I knew that were the case. And in a lot of cases, you know, that's what science is. Like you think about nuclear fusion, controlled nuclear fusion could lead to free energy, but it's also the Hbomb when it's uncontrolled. So often technology serves as this weird dual use forcing function for civilization to kind of, you know, up its game consciousness-wise or whatever. Um, so my my guess would be it's a long-winded way of saying my guess would be it would be, you know, DOE and National Labs. And then my big issue on the whole thing is like I don't know if I think part of me thinks the lights are on but nobody's home like and we don't have a framework where it's like if Russia and China are at par with the US on this stuff. We need to roll it out and we need to use it in in our cities and make the world a better place and just like admit that this stuff is real. And then if they're not, you know, maybe there's some, you know, extreme reason for for for secrecy. What's weird is I I it's I feel like I'm living in the Truman Show sometimes because like I truly truly like I don't think I'm an idiot and like I feel like I've like amassed a lot of like evidence on this stuff. >> I think that's evident conversation. >> Well, thank you, man. I mean, I don't know. I could just have a bunch of crazy useless facts, but but uh but it's just weird. I feel like that I feel like I get back like you know you like poke the bear with statements like this and I I don't know whether it's like maybe it's held in private hands and so the private hands don't have these sort of frameworks that they adhere to >> and because a lot of do the DOE is entangled and DoD was entangled with a lot of these contractors the contractors often are like act like these FFTdoms where they make these like experimental updates and then they become these I mean, if you think about like tech is kind of your your power and your leverage. And so they they then like turn into these like runaway like escape from civilian bureaucracy oversight groups. And so like does this exist in that sort of you know capacity? I I I don't know. I don't have a good answer. But it's it's very strange. And it's very strange when you get to a certain level of conviction on it because it's I'm like what's going on? like is some is somebody going to contact me? And then and then and then you do occasionally get hired like literally the guy this guy who ran a $2 billion P&L uh an executive at Northrup Grumman who's responsible for the B2 you know bomber where I make this argument that Towns and Brown's not anti-gravity work but his other work made it into the B2 stealth bomber. He went on my show and he's like I'm like basically was to a crowd full of like tech people. I'm like, you know, the UFO subject is frustratingly kind of hard. You know, it's not really actionable like per the beginning of our conversation. And I'm like, is there any place you would look at to like invest in technology? He goes, "Watch Jesse's video on Thomas Towns and Brown." And so, you have this guy who's like an exec at Northrup hinting that this stuff is real. And then I'm like, "Okay, if this is real, it like could take us to the stars in a way that like SpaceX can't." >> And yet, like I don't know. Nobody like maybe it's because like the thumbnails on my YouTube channel look kind of ridiculous because like that's how you like have to bootstrap your distribution online. I don't know. I seriously I don't know. But uh [laughter] I'd love for there to be more progress made on this. >> Yeah, man. And it's it's so fascinating and it definitely is a interesting rabbit hole to dive down. And it also still leaves a lot of room for explanation in terms of uh the the variance of ET species and um abduction stories and sigh phenomena and these crafts moving through intention and um and so I want to start diving a bit down that side of things now because I know your fascination with Diana Pulka's work kind of and in your also understanding of Thomas Aquinus's taxonomy of angels sort of reframes extraterrestrial life in a completely different way. Um like that they are not potentially beings from another star system that traveled here in the way we think they would. Um but that are potentially interdimensional and that interact with consciousness in a way that we like a monkey trying to understand quantum, you know, mechanics could potentially understand. It's it's it's way beyond our level of comprehension. Um and so uh let's start how would you set the framework for what you know that sort of theory of of consciousness. Yeah. So I I think looking to religion kind of apocryphal ancient stories can be really illustrative of what is possibly going on today. You mentioned Diana Pulka. She's a great religious studies professor at UNC Wilmington and she wasn't into this stuff at all. She was like a a a Catholic studies professor and she wrote a book on the Catholic concept of purgatory and then she started to look into uh basically experiences that brothers, nuns, saints, you know, people at monasteries across history had with what they would describe as angels or Jesus or the Virgin Mary, their Virgin Mary apparitions across, you know, Catholic history obviously and she looked into them and she would often look into the like original Greek translations like the archetypal example is actually um uh you have St. Francis of Aisi in 13th century Italy on Mount Leverne and he's this one of these really interesting figures kind of similar to like um St. Augustine where he starts out struggling with faith and kind of like a life of the party sort of guy and um he has this really interesting experience at the top of this this mountain and he's with brother Leo this confidant who's kind of documenting this whole experience and essentially sees and she does the original translation in Greek and or I think it's in Latin sorry and it's a flaming torch and he receives what he says you know this wound in the flesh and It's the stigmata. But then she looks at it and she's like, "Well, he died a year later from the stigmata and actually the stigmata looks a lot more like just electromagnetic burns." And so she gives this manuscript of stories like, you know, St. Francis of Aises to her friend. And her friend goes, "This reads like a Steven Spielberg script. Like this is not this looks exactly like what UFO stories are today." and she looks into the work of John Mack at Harvard and she's like, "Oh my god, like if you one to one replace angel with alien or demon with alien, you know, or you know, in certain cases Jesus or angels with with aliens, it seems very similar. The ecstasy of St. Teresa is another example like over and over and over again." And so, American Cosmic is her book, which is it's an amazing book because you see the first half of her book being like the UFO that she's writing about it in this kind of metaological like as a professor would way like this is kind of a a modern psychosocial phenomena and it's kind of crafted in like a Disney studio or whatever. And she even talks about Betty and Barney Hill being abducted in 1961. She talks about how the CBS show Outer Limits depicts aliens with eyes being wrapped around their head just like they are seeing. And so she's like basically saying maybe our perceptions are being shaded by media. And so I'm reading this book and I'm like this is very wellreasoned. You know, this is like this this woman she's going to debunk. She's going to explain this whole thing. And then you see her fall into this belief system where she's like, "Oh my god, what I've been looking at for the, you know, not only the Catholic stuff, but the Hebrew meaba tradition, you know, the Ezekiel Ezekiel's chariots and that sort of thing. A lot of this stuff just comports with modern UFO lore. And maybe religion is this ongoing process today." And I think for a lot of people that's somehow subversive of religion. like don't smear religion with your you know alien stories sort of thing. I would say it's reinforcing of religion and I wouldn't call the current thing alien. I would just call the current thing an empirical observable like you can actually remerge science and the spirit which bifurcated around the enlightenment where you had Newton who was like an alchemist and then you end up with like David Hume who's like this natural philosopher and now you have Richard Dawkins who's like it's like ardent shrill atheist. I think you could remerge those things if you have this empirical observable phenomena where you're like these are happening at nuclear sites and they comport with things happening in the Bible like oh my god that's crazy. So I I love her work on that and she's really an heir to Jacqu Valle who writes about this whole thing as like he he actually was writing originally around like kind of um new psychological thought was kind of this burgeoning field where you had people like Zimardo and you had these behavioral psychologists the guys like BF Skinner and intermittent reinforcement. And so you get this idea of like if you give, you know, a rat like an irregular drip of a thing, they're more likely to become like rapidly chasing the drip than they are if it's like this regular thing. And that's how Jacqualite discusses the phenomenas. You're like you're you're always chasing this thing that never you never quite grasp. And it's this it's it's almost like this control system which is using these intermittent reinforcement techniques and synchronicities which we now know synchronicities do create dopamine which leads you through life in this like specific way that you were you know maybe maybe um you were supposed to lead or whatever. Um, and so again, it brings this whole new cut on the UFO story, which I do think becomes a little more personable and actionable than like, you know, crafts that, you know, have anti-gravity or whatever. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. But before we dive deeper in there, could you lay out the different his like what is the history of the grays for example versus the Nordics versus the reptilians versus and and what is the correlation between what is perhaps because our brain is very much so a prediction machine and what is being entrained from media versus vice versa. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean that the outer limits thing is interesting and sometimes I wonder I mean if this is all shadow play if re you know if you take the Don Hoffman thing at face value which I'm not saying that's necessarily true but say it is and so you have some sort of higher platonic reality and like a lower reality >> in that kind of worldview you'd have like guardians which are you're seeing this sort of you know um the shadows on the wall you're seeing the similacra of the objects. You're not seeing the objects themselves. And then you get into this thing where you have these memes in your head. And who and like how do you gain a meme library? Like what is that? How does that occur? And is that are those meme libraries just based on organic things that you're seeing in reality through life or are they shaded by media, you know, itself? And clearly it's somewhat shaded by media. You know, again, I think if you if you get into, you know, like the extreme extrapolation of this would be that we are living in some low-level simulation and there is a guardian class that is literally managing the abduction cases themselves as far as our low-level perception or recollection of what occurs. And like you have to entertain that like I don't know, you know, [laughter] um that's really nutty territory. Um, as far as the history of the Grays, you know, the kind of uh uh really premier, you know, prime example of an abduction experience is the the Betty and Barney Hill. There is September of 1961. They were in Ports Portsouth, New Hampshire, and they were on their way, actually a road trip to um uh Niagara Falls, and uh they they were an interracial couple, you know, normal, cool people. And uh they were I think at a diner and uh they were they were driving away from the diner and um they uh they see these this light in the sky and they're like what the hell is that? And uh uh you know it see it seems like Betty is more afraid and Barney is more attracted to like whatever this thing is. And um they start they drive after it and um eventually uh they come to a certain stop and they see it. It lands. uh beings seem to come out. And I should say, by the way, again, it's one of those cases where they have missing t they have missing time and I believe uh uh Betty has like marks on her dress or whatever that she comes back with and doesn't know what happens. And then a lot of the actual recollection of, you know, the core experience comes out in a hypnotic regression. But I think that is really when grays were introduced into the zeitgeist, uh was was probably 1961. But again, it's this weird thing where outer limits is also playing around that time. So around that time, I think is when you know, gray grays were introduced. Nordics, it's tough. I mean, you could go back to like the Theosophical society of like, you know, late 19th century. Well, you know, I'll revise my gray thing. Like Alistair Crowley, who's like a very dark figure, talk about left-hand path, you know, part of the Otto in Pasadena and LA. Like he drew this figure he called Lamb, which looks kind of like a gray alien. And you know, he claims he like summoned this thing that came from like a portal. It's probably demonic knowing him or whatever. And um so like maybe he's kind of the the the original gray guy. You could say actually, you know, connected to Alistair Crowley. Um Jack Parsons has an experience. Jack Parsons is the is basically like the godfather of American rocketry. He founds JPL and um he and he he would do these tests, these rocketry tests in the Mojave Desert and he was they were known as the Suicide Squad and he ended up blowing himself up. The you know crazy interesting mad scientists in American history and there's a great uh book um uh called Strange Angel about him that I recommend everybody everybody read. he sees this like Nord Nordic looking being um in the desert and it's almost and he I think he says that she's from the planet Venus and so that's like one of the first kind of archetypal like Nordic experiences but you have going back to the theosophical and anthroposophical kind of you know root races and civilizations you have uh this idea of the hyperoreans or whatever these sort of like uh conscientious towards the earth beings that were you know part of some destroyed cycle Um, and they they're the first root race is the Hyperorean. So, it's hard to really trace like the kind of origin point of a lot of these things. I think they're archetypal in sort of a Yungian sense and exist across uh civilizations in in or across societies in in the human psyche. Um, you know, even like reptilians, you could really go back to like, you know, ancient Hinduism and, you know, battles in the sky or whatever. Uh, and then there are definitely modern instanti instantiations. So, it's really hard to kind of pinpoint, but yeah, what where they were seated and and are they being reinforced by culture? Clearly, they're being reinforce reinforced by culture, but is there some objective reality to them, too? Probably, you know. Um, it's it's I think it's like a lot of reality itself where it's it's the interplay between kind of preconceived notions and thoughts and then the thing itself. There's something like there's some middle path between extreme materialist reductionism and you know we are a happy accident. You Andre are you know just a bunch of atoms that bounced off of one another in a way that emerged into you. Like that's crazy to me. And then but then the other side is like everything is like drenched in meaning and there there's some middle path and I I don't quite know what the answer is but >> I was hoping you could enlighten [laughter] us. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no. I man, it's >> one of one of your other guests who is far superior than I as like a spiritual thinker will be able to do that. [laughter] >> You are in a weight class of your own, man. I feel like you're you're you're crushing it. Your recall of information is absolutely astounding, and I just love how passionate you are about all of this, too, man. Um, it makes it so lively and engaging to to talk about. Um, now there's a couple different avenues here. There's one which is like sort of the Hoffman understanding of the headset analogy. How we do not see our brains through the cameras of our eyes do not see reality in the way that we historically have thought neurologically. Rather our brains are prediction machines. Uh there are there's this great book the experience machine by Andy Clark who kind of elucidates this a bit. Um how our brains co-create reality. We literally predict and guess um in our brains and then kind of meet halfway from the sensory input. And it's fascinating because um there's this quote I think I saw in one of your videos about how the eyes only see what the mind is ready to comprehend. >> Yes. Something like that. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> And in many ways perception like we can only perceive certain things to a degree our nervous system will allow or make space for. And so from the from within the headset, the analogy of like our perception is very limited. Aldis Huxley's reducing valve analogy of our brain being able to kind of look through reality as if it's like a through a straw. So we're not overwhelmed by the amount of energy and stimulus that's possibly available to us. Um there are countless millions of bits of information floating around us, very few of which we actually have conscious perception of in any given moment. So reality is way more vast than we can perceive in any given moment. We know that and we also understand that there that this thirddimensional reality that we are very plugged into and enchanted by um is only one uh of many modes of reality. And so when you go into the subjective transpersonal experiences of people have these noetic experience of experiences of different alien beings contact with the galactic federations and these blue tall beings and the gray beings and all these things. It kind of opens up this just exploration of uh communication through consciousness and sigh phenomena that is uh not not explored previously through the Newtonian model. So I know I just opened up a lot there but but [laughter] when you've you know done your your research and conversations with uh Diana and you look at the sort of mapping of these uh angelic beings. What is your current understanding of potentially understanding extraterrestrial life through this sort of interdimensional lens? >> Yeah. Oh, it's such a great question. So, I think you you just did an amazing interview with Kai Dickens. We both did interviews with her the telepathy tapes. You have this phenomena of these non-verbal, often autistic children who are often disembodied. And so it's this interesting thing where because they're disembodied, if you think of the body as only adaptive, it's only going to give you more information by being in it, then they're at this crazy disadvantage. But if you think of the body as actually a prism or a compression function on a default state of greater omniscience, then you take your hands out of the, you know, the the the machine, you take your your your head out of the virtual reality headset and you know more. And with the leaving of one sense, you gain another. And Aldis Huxley who talks about transmission theory of consciousness. Allah William James himself actually went blind at the end of his life and talks about this uh in this really you know beautiful kind of articulate way. If you look at ancient mystery rituals like the Elusinian mystery rituals, you know, um so you have Socrates if he existed, Plato, you know, um Aristotle, even Marcus Aurelius going to Elus, this place northwest of Athens to essentially drink this Keon drink and experience this temporary death of the physical body. You would think that that wouldn't be valuable at all in the world where the body is only the only way to gain productive information. But what they would always say is they experience, you use the word noetic, they experience noises, which is the Greek, you know, primordial knowledge of the soul. And so there's this idea where if you kill the the physical like if the body is a um compression function on a default state of greater omniscience, if you temporarily suspend the senses and actually kill the body temporarily, are you given greater knowledge and greater access? And whether you're studying near-death experiences or you know um a lot of you know people in like the early like you know Stargate program psychic spy program and like you know um which is this the CIA studied psychic spies which is pretty crazy or just anecdotal information from Monroe or from you know the telepathy tapes the idea of being disembodied can actually be an advantage and that really is a platonic model of epistemology because uh the senses in Plato's dialogues are all they're misleading, you know, that like this this world is elusive, but it's or it's alluring rather. Um, but it's it's really leading you, you know, towards this this this false thing that you're seeing the shadow play and actually going towards the light, which is true knowledge is, you know, is is how you become sort of enlightened, which refers to reality as an illusion and a necessity like to be able to have the experience of oneness differentiating in self and other. to have the illusion of separation allows us to interact with each other in a sense. And then what you're you're referring to when one's hardware so to speak is damaged, you get more easily accessed into the um non-physical aspect of reality. >> Exactly. And it's you can a lot of I'm sure the people you have on your show are like like you know like like Roomie you know through the wound comes the light. Well, what is the wound? It's like a wound on a physical your physical body like and that often is the case with people where they'll experience some trauma and often it's literally embodied trauma. you could read like you know what is it the body keeps the score or whatever you know and you you end up with these like this embodied information and that ends up you know you fulfill your karmic cycle by like healing that thing and so um yeah I think our model of epistemology is probably backwards and uh uh the body and the brain are not productive they're reductive you know one of my favorite Marshall mccloon quotes is every media extension of is every media extension of man is an amputation and it's this idea that like we are actually when we you know extend ourselves with neural link or virtual reality we are porting ourselves into a low a lower level prism and there's this idea of the fall of man and our you know if you do have any sort of soul state maybe this itself is sort of technology you know to go through the game of life and learn karma or whatever it is like I don't know what the purpose of life is. But >> that's just a really important note there because you do see this sort of bifurcation of transhumanist agenda versus or the humanist understanding the ancient intelligence so to speak as opposed to the artificial intelligence that is on the rise. um that if that's true that every media is a is a extension of man is an amputation then we are clearly society moving down this route of AGI and what does that mean about losing and atrophying these inherent telepathic perhaps eye phenomena um just these the the technology of the human mind um once we're not using it you know so it's just an interesting thing to be able to be aware of >> yes and I think it's a huge fallacy of Silicon Valley to say, you know, oh, you can't beat him. Join him with the AI and not realizing we might. It's this weird thing, especially with like Elon Musk where it's a literal logic logical fallacy because he says we're in a simulation now. So why wouldn't you a think about who's simulating us? Like who are the simulators? Like you're dogmatically opposed to aliens apparently, but like you think we're in a simulation and b why would you try to port yourself into a lower level simulation? Like that shouldn't be the logical conclusion. And I think if you if you do this interesting thought experiment too where think about technology as a forcing function where take the fusion example where you know you have literally an Hbomb that could like destroy the world and techn technological costs are reducing exponentially over time. So like eventually you're going to get into a society where maybe a kid from his bedroom can blow up the world. Like that's crazy and scary. And then you also have you know controlled fusion and free energy or whatever you have like dramatic reduction in energy costs and like a lot of abundance. So you have this inherent bizarre forcing function where almost inherently like you have to either become perfectly altruistic in your intention, you know, and kind of, you know, purify yourself and like go through every karmic thing you need to go through or, you know, things could go very badly with the kind of multiplying like tech force. And then it's this question of like, have we already has that already been played out? Like has that already been played out? And if we're not in base reality, maybe gaining access to the higher level platonic realm or whatever is this like morality test or karmic test in what we're currently in, which you you end up in these like weird sort of thought loops. But going back to your like core, you know, the thing on, you know, transmission theory of consciousness, I think comports far more with everyday phenomena when it comes to the brain than, you know, I think modern neuroscientists would like to admit. Like how many people experience like these weird flash intuitions where they just have a premonition that something's going to happen. and they're going to get in touch with somebody who's been out of their life for a long time. Somebody's going to call them, you know, and that just seems to happen over and over again. And I do think my hope is we're able to approach a physicalist model of of consciousness that involves the transmission theory and non-local consciousness. And I think if you'll indulge me, this is probably, you know, some going to be somewhat wrong, but like you have Roger Penrose, who's a Nobel Prize winner, amazing physicist. He talks about you know um microtubules and orchestrated objective reduction. Well he's asking he's asking this really important question in physics which is how does microscopic quantum reality which is probabilistic in nature. Why don't we see that? Why do we see macroscopic discrete reality? I see one Andre. I don't see a probability function of Andre's. And uh it's a really important question and most physicists would never dare to to to try to even broach that topic, but he wrote a couple of books on it. And he says that microtubules which are part of the cytokele skeleton of a lot of cells and neurons specifically um uh basically in in invol like they they are involved in wave function collapse and um they can maintain some sort of coherence and then they decoher and boom you snap you see reality you see kind of an ien state like a specific state of reality you don't see the wave function anymore and I don't know if that is correct I find it fascinating that If you shut the microtubules down with anesthesia, a body could be fully functioning, but just consciousness seems to turn turn off, which is why Penrose partnered with Stuart Hamarov, this anesthesiologist, on his theory. Um, but let's just say that maybe something quantum is going in in the brain. That might sound kind of woowoo or newagy, but quantum biology is literally a burgeoning field. like you we know photosynthesis and um enzyme creation um we know that those things involve quantum effects. So we think of the body as warm, wet and noisy, you know, kind of sort more akin to kind of decoherence and not maintaining quantum coherence, but that is over and over again getting proven wrong, you know, and so okay, so let's just assume maybe something quantum is happening in the brain and that explains why we see kind of discrete macroscopic reality. If you talk to even certain scientists today who are working on quantum computers in one interpretation, you have spooky action at a distance, you know, so you have like obviously, you know, entanglement with two photons like across vast, you know, distances in a way that breaks the speed of light and freaked Einstein out. But you also have spooky action across time where it seems like the measurement of photon B in the future is affecting the measurement of photon A in the past. So weird, right? So people who are now working on quantum computations have figured out that you can and quantum computing just generally have figured out that you can reverse uh cubits in quantum computations. And so they're now saying maybe in a working quantum computer, which we're not at yet, you know, the the chips are the main bottleneck, but you know, maybe we get to at some point, you could send information back in time in one interpretation of quantum mechanics. And so if you think about like the premonitions that people have and experience in their day-to-day life, maybe it's they're they're accessing their future knowledge state. And so like you can come up with these like interesting physicalist models of consciousness and I think they're limited and wrong but like you [laughter] know >> it's fascinating and I mean it would it would hint at why maybe deja vu sort of happens in moments of diffused awareness where you're not really focused on anything in particular and then you have a a glimpse of premonition of this happening before or something. Um, it also brings up notions of aliens being future humans potentially. Yes. In in a sort of analogous but different different understanding uh which we can which we can get into. >> Um, that was fascinating though. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm very curious to see what what emerges in our understanding in the science and physics of this. Um, now was there anything just kind of going back on to the understanding of like the taxonomy of angels and like the saraphim and the sort of mapping of these angelic beings and how they could kind of, you know, track to the one of one. >> Yes. Well, so like you have a lot of biblical stories where angels are they're often more violent or you don't want to be in their presence because it's overwhelming. There's literally so you mentioned St. Thomas Aquinas. He had a whole taxonomy of uh you know angels and he based a lot of his stuff off of this Syrian neoplatonist named Emlicus and he would write on the mysteries but he also had this whole kind of you know angel hierarchy and you can literally read like you can create like a table out of like his angel hierarchy and it's you know you know stuff that looks like saraphim and cherubam and that sort of thing and then one of them like literally the attribute is like irradiated light and you're like that looks like electromagnetic radiation and it looks like some of the stuff that Gary Nolan again the Stanford professor says that the CIA came knocking at his door I think in like the mid2010s like 2015 and they were like we've we have all these UFO experiencers and they've experienced all these weird effects and it was bucketed in with some people experiencing Havana syn syndrome which we now know probably come from these like microwave weapons um But basically a lot, you know, if you take, you know, that at face value, he's looking at a lot of UFO experiencers and they're experiencing literal radiation burns. And then you see kind of analoges to that in ancient history, which is fascinating. You can literally watch um Close Encounters of the Third Kind and you see the main character's face. You see him sunburned. you see this literal like like uh uh um you know like like as if like the UFO like like uh emitted this like electromagnetic radiation and so it's like who is giving Steven Spielberg the information you know in the '8s about this sort of stuff and you see actually crates and uh Close Encounters one that says I think skunk works and another that says TRW and those are the two like most classified programs associated with Lockheed and Northrup. >> [laughter] >> pretty pretty fascinating. And now he's of course coming out next year with or this year rather with uh disclosure day uh which is you know very anticipated. Um so yeah anyways going back to your question I I I think the angels thing is it it it is instructive and it is interesting and you even have a guy named Chris Bledsoe who's this UFO super experiencer in North Carolina who's actually friends with one of your past guests uh rest in peace Robert Gilbert. um because they were going back and forth on a lot of the symbolism that uh Chris Bledsoe was receiving through his transmissions, through his alien interactions and some of them seem to maybe comport with Rosacruian symbols and stuff and like you know this gets into territory that like I don't know what to make of a lot of this stuff. Um but he said so this is crazy. when he started to experience a lot of these UFOs showing up, you know, around his house and stuff, a guy showed up at his uh front door. And we now know that guy to be this guy named Hal Pavin Meyer, who we know is this senior scientist at NASA who's worked at NASA for years. And he I guess like towards the end of his life on his deathbed, he told the family, you know, he was both CIA and NASA. And he would say things to Bledsoe which again like maybe don't take at face value some of these people are coming in from the intel world you know I don't know but they would say he would say like don't get close to the the angel beings you know they're emitting like megavolts of electric like it's really dangerous and so then you're like what the hell like is you have people at NASA who are like studying angels and demons like [laughter and gasps] it's really weird. like do they have a taxonomy? Do they have like megavolt ranges that they associate? I don't know. You know, >> it's fascinating what uh how memory and past prior experience colors perception and how 2,000 years ago the experience of these beings might might have been depicted in a way because we had a certain sort of typograph or like sort of a sort of framework for what they would be or look like um versus versus now. Oh, and I'm just curious how you think that maybe color is like if these are I find it always suspicious that alien extraterrestrial beings would essentially look like somewhat augmented human beings. It's like >> we can't get much more creative than that, right? But m perhaps that is the form they look like to us in this dimensional timescape you know because that's what we can perceive feel comfortable with and in reality an interdimensional being uh doesn't take form in any sort of shape that would be resembling like a a physical bi biology to us. >> Yeah. No to totally it's a great question and I think you're touching on like not not only is it unlikely it's it's it's literally statistically unlikely that they would be bipedal upright homitted looking beings. If you think about it you have in the Milky Way galaxy like estimated 20 billion earthlike planets. So that's what people always site. They're always like but there are 20 billion earthlike planets so they would look like us. And then you you you you take a step back and you go okay but there are like over a trillion likely non-earlike planets. So the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to this bipedal homminate upright you know creature which by the way is somewhat rare on earth uh is just extremely slim in an environment that you know earthlike we're saying generously like doesn't have the same you know gravity as us doesn't have the same weather doesn't have the same you know uh levels of you know nitrogen in the air whatever like it's just it's really unlikely that they look like not only us, but they look like what a conventional evolutionary biologist would say humans look like in the future. >> Um, and so this is where it gets really crazy. There are these uh concepts in evolutionary biology, neotony or pedomorphosis, and it's this idea that uh basically your current uh uh children will look like your future offspring as a species. So the like laral or childlike you know features in your species will get retained over long periods of time and that literally also occurs in with domesticated species. And if you think about like what a dog is to a wolf that is probably what a future human is to a current human just based on pure natural selection. I mean testosterone's falling off a cliff. You know I'm not trying to advertise for the manosphere here but like these are stats right? Like testosterone's falling off a cliff. burn counts falling off a cliff and like uh uh we just don't need to use our bodies like we used to. Like we're we're at this weird like high leveraged like software point in the world where like you know like you just like use AI to like get a lot done and um and so like you know we're not hunter gathering anymore and so like our noses are becoming vestigial, our ears are becoming vestigial. Gray aliens have small noses and they have small ears. Uh, our eyes are becoming more important in adaptive. Like, people need more macular and ocular support than they ever have because screen time is at an all-time high. Well, guess what? These gray aliens have like eyes that seem like they wrap around their heads and like are slit-like or whatever where they seem more important. Obviously, your prefrontal cortex and decision-m is going to be more important. Um if if there is anything to any of this ESP size stuff like telepathy or like just in call it intuition if you're more of a materialist reductionist that's going to be selected for and so you're going to develop these you know a larger prefrontal cortex and like more of those sorts of you know powers as well and not only that but if you look at a lot of abduction cases over 50% of them involve hominid like beings so again the likelihood of that being the case if they're not like probably related to humans like is really low and then often they're friendly. I think I think 85% of those of that 52% are friendly. So it's like you would you would show a care for your former self you know or or for you know your former you know it doesn't have to be you from the future. It can be like you know your species or whatever. And if you think about like North Sentinel Island or a super remote peg pygmy tribe. So like North Sentinel Island is this island off the coast of India and they've basically like they don't know the rest of the world exists. Like they exist like on literally on a complete island. They're protected. They have protected status under the Indian government. A couple of missionaries tried to go there in the early 20th century and they got like shot with arrows. And for all we know, North this North Sentinel have like a myth of aliens encountering them, right? Where they're like they're like talking about like these missionaries like you know they were pale and they were they looked like us but not fully like us, you know, [laughter] and they might think that they're from some other star system, but AAM's razor, you know, the the the easiest shortest path explanation is definitely that they're related to you. if they look like you and they're showing up in proximity to you, they show a care about your survival. Um, you know, in certain cases when the game collection occurs with these abduction cases. So, you know, Barney Hill, which we talked about, um, he reluctantly, you know, is very emar embarrassing to admit because this was the '60s and this is a very repressed version of America. He admitted that, you know, semen samples were taken from him. And so then you get into these weird speculation about like are we in this like intergenerational breeding program because sometimes the communications between the beings and the humans are like you know we experienced a nuclear holocaust and we need to renew our biodiversity or you know yeah things aren't looking great on our planet and so which tracks the ancient civilization theories about Nibiru and extraterrestrial intervention to the human species and all that. Totally. Totally. >> Which is there's so many fascinating rabbit holes to go [laughter] down, you know, it's like >> Yeah. >> But yeah, it's interesting. >> It is. And who, you know, who knows what is going on? It's It's hard to say, but it it seems like these beings have more access to a time agnostic version of reality cuz there's always missing time >> in these cases. uh the crafts seem more like almost time machines than they do like vehicles that take you off Earth. And if you think about it, you would need some sort of space-time met if you do take the you know um speed of light as like the uh uh the ultimate like speed limit for the universe. You would need some sort of basically space-time engineering going on. So you would need time travel in order to get like interstellar space travel. So I think it is sort of this false dichotomy. But yeah, you do you seem to have these ascended versions of humans with like total 360 control over reality, but there's almost like in like in Star Trek, you have pre-warp drive civilizations and you have warp drive civilizations. They're like technologically advanced, but they can't interfere. There's something called the prime directive where you can't interfere with pre-warp drive civilizations. So it's like they only can do minimal interference with people and they often people experience taking chemical rinses after they uh like leave the craft or like as they're leaving the craft so that they don't contaminate you know society with the like alien pathogens or whatever. It's very strange. I don't know what is going on, but it's it's it's kind of like what you would think of like like if you again if it's like you take this zoological or anthropological model, you know, or you watch a show like Chimp Nation or whatever where you know, which like Rogan loves to site where you're like you're peering in and you're kind of trying to blend in and you're not really trying to interfere, but you also don't really care that much if you get seen and then maybe you want to like tag the animals with a certain thing and like study a thing that seems like what's happening with us and they don't seem to care about human uh hierarchies and status like if they we did like I did just interview the president of a Russian republic who was taken aboard a UFO while he was sitting president but that's you know an outlier and then he says he has some other presidents who like won't go public with of nations you know which is crazy but that's that's the exception to the rule usually it's like average people and usually you're left asking well why Betty in Barney Hill or why, you know, they're just normal people. Um, so it's very confusing, but it's very interesting, too. >> So, what do you make of the sort of, uh, recurring themes that you see when people take DMT through holotropic breath work, um, out of body experiences, there seems to be a doorway where the valve, so to speak, opens up and you have access to more of these contact with these beings. a lot of people have experiences of why would that if it would in your understanding open up to more of these experiences. >> It's a great question. So, so I I think if we are living in an adaptive low-level version of reality, simulation or the Don Hoffman thing, something like that and I hate the word simulation because it has this post-modern nihilistic context and I think in the Platonic context it's very empowering and it makes your life extremely important. It doesn't make it like Grand Theft Auto. It makes it like this like sacred thing. So with that, I do think there's something participatory about whatever's going on here. So if you are in this, call it a matrix, how would you break out of the matrix? Well, there'd be two ways. One would be high energy physics. So it would be the reckless way particle accelerators uh nuclear blasts and high voltage experimentation of Tesla Towns and Brown. Both of whom literally said they spoke to aliens. Maronei also said they spoke to aliens. So like the people you know who are doing these high voltage experiments like literally saying that you know they experienced these you know kind of otherworldly communications. Um, so you're literally breaking reality in in those cases in in the case of higher energy physics like you know when you get to plank scale energy which we're not at with like you know nuclear blasts necessarily but are you are you bending the fabric of spaceime itself? Are you creating little black holes like you know I think they say it's like 10 to the 9th megat tons of TNT and you can create little black holes. I you know I think the Zarbomb is like not there yet but it's like we might be messing with the literal root fab fabric of reality with these sorts of experiments in ways that are extremely reckless where if you're like managing this whole system you're going to be like stop like what are you doing and you're going to monitor that stuff all UFOs showing up around nuclear sites now you talked about DMT and consciousness what would be the other way out of the simulation it would be like the way that you were meant to ascend through the simulation >> and that would be more of like you're you know running in these karmic whirlpools and you're like following this sort of life path and you know maybe within those you experience you know these sort of transcendent experiences and that would involve like you know DMT gets released you know at death and at these kind of like primordial occasions and so there are probably moments in life where it's adaptive even in your life to like take the headset off and to see reality for what it is. And even in the Platonic sense, you always glimpse the light, but you can never stay there. Like it'll literally eviscerate you. And so I think a lot of religions like the esoteric versions of religions actually normalize into this kind of cobalistic meaba. And I'd definitely be considered some sort of heretic in saying this. And there are all sorts of people who know like way more about religion than me. But I would say a lot of religion kind of describes I think this this ascendance path. Uh >> you look back through the gnostic origins of almost every religion. There is a lot more convergence um across the board until like a lot of the dogmatic additions on top of it came. >> I agree. I agree. And I think a lot of whether it's Ezekiel or I think Jesus experienced this in the book of acts or Enoch which you know maybe is apocryphal like I'll let the historians debate about that. You in Enoch's case he literally transforms into an angel. Speaking of you know NHI being this aspirational thing if they are real but you know in all those cases they seem to walk with or commune with God and go up on some sort of vessel or chariot. I guess you know the Jesus translation is a cloud, it's a chariot in the case of Ezekiel, but yeah, we were talking earlier about the varieties of religious experience and if you have like people who want a gnostic like a knowing of God like they need the experience, you know, like uh Thomas the dou the doubter in many cases, you know, would be the the archetypal like you actually need to to to experience God firsthand. um th those sorts of you know people would and and and in that interpretation Jesus might not be um you know some sort of exceptional you know extremely you know like like a oneofone case that happened to live 2,000 years ago but like an estate a state that that someone can sort of ascend to and um yeah then you get into like a lot of these stories and uh you have you know and and Hebrew, you know, me kaba you have the seven hecelot or seven palaces. You know, in Egypt, you have the arit. You know, in Sumeriia, you have the ziggurat. In rescriptionism, you have seven levels where you have to discard, you know, uh part of what you're wearing or whatever at at every level. there's always like a gift and um you have you know Thomas Merton you know the seventory mountain and you have you have this this weird recurrence of like seven and you know Islam you have seven levels of heaven and and and and I think seven levels of earth or something and so maybe you could normalize the religions into um there's a really great book book by a guy named uh Peter Levvena and it's about um these these kind proto protottypical kind of um or archetypal kind of cobalistic experiences underpinning a lot of these more esoteric forms of religion and um so that would be how you would connect like the DMT experiences I think with the um you know the high energy physics because this is like a reckless way where you're like you're like a you know you're like a child and you're like playing with something you're not supposed to and they're like taking the matches out of your hand or whatever and then this thing is like you know maybe it's not for anybody not for everybody in fact there's uh the in the parable of the parties which is you know the cobalistic tradition uh there's something like you know four rabbis are trying to ascend you know up and walk with God and like I want to say like two go crazy one die and one makes it or something and it's this straight and narrow path and actually at the end of um St. Francis of Aisi's life he writes one letter in the Greek uh alphabet in his diary and it's the letter Tao and Diana Pulka says that Tao signified um conversion to Christianity but it wasn't it was like a forced conversion it was like he was forced to walk the straight and narrow and if you think about uh Jesus you know in in the garden like you know he his fate was his fate and he did but he didn't want to accept accept his fate. You know, he was he was really uh uh uh uh afraid and and and and reluctant in many ways. And so I think, you know, there is a way in which all of this stuff if you do like widen your aperture that you expose yourself to stuff that can burn you and can set you down the wrong path uh and uh if you can walk that straight and narrow, I think you can you can ascend into like a a really cool state of of consciousness. And you know what that is? I don't know. It's like impossible to like talk about a lot of this stuff, but >> man, it's fascinating. And I know you've had a couple interesting experiences yourself, right? >> Yeah, I have. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Do you want to talk? I can tell you about them. >> Yeah. I'd be curious. and also like how you what the aftermath of processing that is because I know you're somebody who I mean clearly has a love for exploring all these alternative theories um but then also stays very grounded and uh just open-minded and in and in regards to it all. So yeah, what happened? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of also why I'm here today talking to you cuz like I would probably still be like investing in startups and this would be this like >> compartmentalized. These were like the origins for you to kind of take this line of work way more seriously. >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. because it w it became like a Gnostic and I think if you speak to a lot of UFO researchers a lot of them try to stay really impartial and be like >> oh yeah I did see that one thing and then you like you you know you have a drink with them or something and they're like okay like it's I just want to know what I saw you know and like and then you realize that like their work is like this autobiographical which again I think it's just impossible to parse and it's better to be honest about that. Um, so, so definitely was a reinforcer as far as trying to figure out what was going on here in >> uh right when the pandemic hit actually in I think it was 20 2020. Um, I had two uh uh pretty crazy experiences. >> You were doing what at the time? >> I was investing at in startups at a family office just like in a prosaic like tech venture job or whatever. And part of the job was looping in we had a speaker series and I would like loop in interesting thinkers and so I was exploring some topics around you know this sort of stuff back then but I don't know I always thought it would be like a funny sort of joke or something like it was I don't know it was not a funny joke but like this compartmentalized part of my life that like you know I grew up and my my dad was interested in Rudolph Steiner and like he was always interested in like kind of alternative philosophy and so like I always had that growing up but like >> and his godfather is Rob Sterling, right? >> Yeah. So this is a really trippy synchronicity is his godfather exactly literally made the seminal UFO documentary in 1974 and I didn't even know that until getting into the UFO stuff. It's just such a bizarre synchronicity. Um and now now I'm like what did he tell you about UFOs? And like my dad's not super into UFOs, so he's like he was really into them, you know. [laughter] Um so that's wild, right? But um yeah, I was it was always this kind of like uh curiosity, this novel curiosity. And then in I think it was in 2020. It was like right when the pandemic hit, I had a couple of experiences. One was I was walking in Laurel Canyon and I was uh with this woman who I just met and it was kind of I don't know we were mostly friends but it was kind of romantic as well and uh and uh she was super cool and like interested in like out there subjects and so we were on a long walk in Laurel Canyon and um she was like uh you know I'm really into aliens like you know and then I was joking she was like are you an alien like Actually, I'm super into aliens. And then I was like, I want to meet an alien. Is what I said. And then she goes, it'll happen when you stop looking for them. And I'm like, what? This is crazy. And then as we're walking, as we're having this conversation, we walk by a guy with a metal detector. And he's so and he's looking for something. It's like it's like sunset. And we're like, I've never seen a guy with a metal detector and Laurel Kane. It doesn't make sense. You know, we're in Tanganger right now. It's like, why why is somebody on the street with a metal? It doesn't make sense. You know, those are two very similar neighborhoods in LA. just residential. And so there's something symbolic about him looking for a thing and then like you know and while [clears throat] she says that >> and I don't even think I would have remembered that obviously if what was about to happen next didn't happen but um you know some amount of time goes by you know I want to say it's like a minute or two or something and then we are like basically in under this like clearing where you know there's a lot of trees overhead and there's this like clearing and I see a UFO that looks like this kind of like a school bus shaped thing doesn't look at all like a saucer, a tic tac, any of the stuff you're used to hearing about. And no visible propulsion. It's like this gray metallic thing. Maybe it's somewhat cigar- shaped or tic tac shaped, but I really thought of it as more kind of rectang like, you know, kind of hard angles. And I remember just looking up and being like, "What the [ __ ] is that?" And it like just went overhead and then she saw she said she saw it like descend into the treetops, but I I didn't see that. Um and I don't know. I mean, she's like still like, you know, I think she lives in like Bali now and like we talk about it occasionally and she's like, "Yeah, that was the weirdest experience ever." And uh and it's just so strange and that so that experience and that I was doing holotropic real quick on that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Can can I just fly past the [laughter] >> um I wonder if Miss Frizzle was driving it by the way. >> What? Um [clears throat] how how how many feet away from you? Like how? >> Not not high. So like 50ish 60ish feet like right above the treetops. >> Okay. And it was you felt it was physical or was it like made of light or what was it? >> It felt like physical to me. It felt really physical to me. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Flying. No noise coming from it. >> No noise coming from it. Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. And I don't I don't know what to make of it. I literally have [laughter] And um it was definitely at a time I feel during the pandemic where the world was opening up to like I do feel like the world has has gotten weirder since then. I think that's the safe thing to say. >> I think people are realizing how weird it how weird the world is. Yes. Yeah. The epistemics are catching up to the reality, >> right? >> Um, but that for me was like this big awakening time and I think for a lot of people it was a forcing function of it's kind of this like grow or die moment of like >> get your [ __ ] together and like do what you're supposed to do in life or like waste away and you know kind of repress it forever. >> And that experience felt it felt like deeply meaningful along those lines. But and especially as far as like me moving from a more kind of like hard charging finance trying to make money trying to like you know being in this like sharp elbowed world of like I need to invest in the next billion dollar thing and you know into like what's going on in reality and like you know going on this kind of gnostic quest and it it definitely felt like it redirected me somehow and yeah I'd be like lying if I were to say it didn't >> and then it's it it also feels feels like this it's such a you know especially if you don't have and I didn't like it wasn't really long enough for me to record it. I also remember at the time I didn't have a show and like I remember thinking in my head like this is sacred and like and I know it sounds ridiculous for somebody that now has a show you know and it's fair to you know sort of critique you know in retrospect I wish I had [laughter] um but yeah it felt like deep deeply kind of meaningful um >> but then the meaning also feels like hard to unpack where you know meaningful in that like you know I'm I know I I think I know there's a there there because I've experienced something firsthand or at least as part of my path, but as to what it is, like you know, it's not like I was given this download of semantic information alongside it. >> Yeah, I think that's a consistent theme with people who have transpersonal experiences. It's almost in a way like I've heard you refer to the monolith in the space odyssey. Um, Robert Gilbert refers to like and I've heard also heard Joe Rogan, you know, refer to like these in these transpersonal experiences having experience of sacred geometric figures that are imbued with meaning and love, you know, um, and that there is something inherently uh interwoven with a level of beauty and intelligence that is beyond the level of comprehension we have the capacity for in in a given moment, but you can like intuitively feel there's something really beautiful there. Um, and I mean connecting the dots, looking backwards, whatever it was, it definitely set you down this route. >> Um, so and then you had another one with breath work. >> Yeah, exactly. And it also Silver Lake. So like, you know, people don't know LA like East LA where like you know typical like bohemian screenwriters, you know, working in like Hollywood live or whatever. like not necessarily like your Sedona or even Tanga or like what you would think of as like some portal or whatever for this sort of stuff. >> And but it is interesting that you know I'd gone surfing with my buddy that day and this friend of mine is like one of the most materialist reductionists like he subscribes to David Hume and like natural philosophy. He's a Nam Chosky fan who, you know, Nam Chosky I think wrote a lot about angels and so I think he's like sort of compartmentalized from aspects of himself as a lot of people might be you know but uh he's basically a materialist reductionist like the guy is like doesn't believe you know in magic in the world >> and so this is my you know he also invests with me and like you know kind of a high functioning guy and like not at all interested in like woo woo stuff and we went surfing thing. Uh we were at his his mom's house uh in uh uh Orange County near like Trestles, so like great surf spot and he's a really good surfer. And we went back to his place in Silver Lake and I was I had just gotten into holotropic breath work and it was this like amazing modality for me. I I love it. I I find it to be like this beautiful like kind of healing thing. It was invented by this Hungarian psychiatrist named um Stannislov Grath and it means growing towards wholeness just like helotropy like a plant would grow towards the sun. And uh you're supposed to actually indogenously release DMT in your brain if you like do it long enough. Um and so it's interesting we're doing this holotropic breath work I'm teaching him not long into the breath work like five minutes in. And for people who've done this I imagine a decent subset of your audience has done this. Um, you develop a tolerance for it. And he hadn't had the tolerance. So like 5 minutes in >> you get these like T-Rex hands, you know, like your hands. Yeah. Tenny. Exactly. And you're And you um Yeah. Like Yeah. Or tetany. Yeah. Exactly. Like tetanus. And you your your hands are clam up. And um so he got that and uh so it was almost as if he was having like a an even greater experience than what you would expect in like a 5minute period. And you could see like it was kind of profound for him. And uh 5 minutes in, we just we look up and we see these two metallic orbs and they're just one's seems to be floating above him, one seems to be floating above me, but really high up. I'm talking tens of tens and thousands of feet in the air. Um and uh you know, beyond that, it's hard to gauge distance. and they seem like they're bobbing and they're not they're not flying like normal vehicles. And I look at him and my immediate reaction is like UFO cuz you know I was already somewhat into this stuff. I had already had the other experience. And um he looks at me and I go, "What do you think those are?" or whatever. And he goes, "I think there's that, you know, deep black locked tech or whatever." And you know, a few seconds go by and he goes, "That's not that. Yeah, that's not from here, dude." [laughter] And uh and we just look at each other and we're like, "Yeah, that's that's the weirdest thing ever." And it's just bobbing. These things are bobbing. And then they sort of, you know, a minute or two goes by and then they they they seem to like disappear like it's like as if they, you know, they didn't like they didn't fly off. >> Um, and also just I don't know. So strange. And again, didn't take a photo. I think if we had taken a photo, it would have looked like what a lot of these orb they're t if you go online now. >> Yeah. We are swimming in orb photos and it far surpasses people's motivations to fake this stuff and CGI capabilities uh or animation capabilities um or even the AI deep fakes because they don't look super they look like they're being blue shifted or redshifted. They look kind of like there's some gravitational lensing which in this age of disclosure documentary it talks about how UFOs fly and like why that sort of happens. Um, so that was more of kind of an archetypal UFO experience and that you you see these kind of metallic sort of orbs and then again it's like I don't know what it what it meant but for sure some sort of Allah the Jacques Valet intermittent reinforcement you know maybe I'm just like a hamster on a wheel and it's like you know it's feeding me a little bit when I need it. [laughter] It's fascinating and I totally hear the argument of like if this is such a widespread experience that so many people are are having, >> why does everything look like it's filmed on a potato and we don't [laughter] >> why do we not have extremely compelling footage if you know given the wide widespread amount of phones and cameras? >> I think the decent answer uh to that is is talked about in this age of disclosure documentary. It's talked about by, you know, specifically by this physicist Hal Putoff where you get these sort of gravitational lensing effects and because these UFOs are flying at such high speeds, they seem to be either compressing or like stretching light or compressing light. So you get these red shift or blue shift effects which are causing the sort of sunburn style stuff if you get into too close proximity to them. And so you end up with, you know, lensing effects on cameras where they look they end up looking pretty blurry. And so, you know, we only see between 400 and 700 nanometers of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. On either end, you have infrared, you know, you have ultraviolet. Seems like we have some interesting infrared, you know, data. And I just think, you know, it's a sort of like sensor bias of like, you know, it has to be this thing that we're like seeing in our reality, which there are plenty of things that are real that we don't have, you know, images of. What would be the strongest non-conspiratorial explanation for all these orb sightings and everything? >> So, yeah, great question. It would be something like a combination of holographic holographic projections plus um you know and sort of spoofing technology plus you know uh propulsion that like you know exists in the classified world that is you know deep black that you know is beyond our current you know prosaic capabilities. And I would say both of those are interesting answers. And then I would also say, okay, think about it. And like a lot of this stuff deals with consciousness and like, you know, these people in these like deep meditative states seem to see see this stuff. How would the spoofing technology somehow know how to correlate with like you being in a peak state consciousness- wise? Doesn't really make sense. And then the gravity stuff, it's like, okay, cool. we so we have new physics and the physics that you know physics we're using is fake or something like it's funny actually Elon Musk made this really interesting statement so he's always dogmatically opposed to the UFO topic which I find very curious and interesting >> he says that what if if somebody were to know about them I would >> he would yeah yeah and then and then I had Joe Rogan on my show and I was like okay if you got him and David Grush on you know your show together he goes a Elon wouldn't do it and you know David Grush would win and he goes, "Elon's a sly dog. I know he knows more than he's saying about this stuff." So, [laughter] and like look, say what you will about Joe, I absolutely love him. Um, you know, you can say he's like biased, pro- UFO or whatever, but the guy has like a super interesting vantage point. Like, you know, he knows a lot of people in and around government. Like everybody's probably trying to like, you know, sickopantically cozy up to the guy like and giving him information like he like his worldview is way better than I think people who are so skeptical about all this stuff and like to like kind of trash him like you know than they than they realize in my in my opinion. Um so yeah, I found that to be very interesting. But Elon so he's so like dogmatically opposed to this stuff generally. He'll joke and he'll say I'm an alien or something. Or he'll be like I would know cuz I have all the clearances. Uh which I, you know, consistently hear from people on the inside like is is absolutely ridiculous. Like you, you know, he doesn't have, you know, blanket clearances to everything. like the that world is so stovepiped and compartmentalized um that if you had some legacy pockets or whatever in these companies that are kind of in incumbent and you know uh uh trying to compete against SpaceX, I don't think he would like you know be privy to to to everything uh just because he runs a chemical combustion rocket company. But what I found interesting is uh he went on I think Tucker Carlson and he walked back his dogmatic skepticism and he goes what these pilots are seeing uh is probably just you know American classified programs. So that's really interesting because unless you are saying that it's all like radar spoofing and visual spoofing technology, like something's mastered the ability to like do both, then what you're admitting is there are advanced vehicles that are flying in ways that transcend the chemical combustion you're using at SpaceX. And to me, that is like fascinating. Like I'm I would not feel bad having spent all my time studying UFOs if like that's the way the wave function collapses. I happen to think it's more complicated than that. But like cool, like if that's the answer, >> that's fascinating. But again, it just doesn't explain how these things show up, you know, during certain states and in these sort of synchronistic ways. And then the the the meta thing is like, are we constantly are we conflating what is probably a zoo of phenomena? And that's probably the answer. Like the answer is likely not oh once you open your your sensors your epistemic aperture like what you can see you see like one thing that explains all these phenomena or whatever. There's one epiphenomena that explains the low-level phenomen like probably not right like you could be seeing survivors of an ancient cataclysm that are hiding underneath our oceans. You could see like this like you know orb like you know they're engaging in like nuclear game theory like you know holding back like the nukes or whatever and doing recon on us. You could see space alien like you could see like all these different things and like you know I don't know you know you'd have to somehow probability weight these things. You have to create some sort of infographic and map and think about these in like Beijian sort of probabilistic ways. Uh, and I think the people there's no one doing that. Like everybody's stuck on this like first space like alien not alien. And like the deeper thinkers are like we don't even like that's the wrong framework. Like we don't even know. We just know that there's like all these empirical anomalies that we have to study. >> What is your like what is your best guess as to what's actually happening? you said is a conflation of all these probably different things, >> but what what what is your most compelling not to say you're fully convicted of explanation of what's going on? >> So, I I I'm really high conviction on the Towns and Brown anti-gravity stuff. I think there's like so much evidence there all the like lead electrostatics guy at NASA leaving to start a company around you know his sort of work and then all the historical stuff I've dug up >> around him achieving real results with his experiments but also trying to stigmatize himself and cover up what he did. So I'd say high conviction on that extremely high conviction that something is showing up in the aerial space of nuclear facilities all over the world. Uh so again, Fukushima, Japan, you know, uh uh Barloce Argentina, all these nuclear bases across the United States, Rendlessham in England, the famous case in 1980, something is happening there beyond the coordination abilities of some master scipper. So like those two things extremely high conviction in. A third thing that I'm really high conviction in, which is probably my most controversial belief, would be that reality is just way more malleable and weird than we think. And that this gets into like is the mind involved in wave function collapse. You know, this idea of parasychology, which is really historically since the kind of advent of that term in the late 19th century, is like this poor amalgamation of like everything weird that empirically seems to happen that doesn't comport well into like other science. Like it's just a word for it's a euphemistic term for like fringe science that involves mediumship and you know, law of attraction style synchronicity like all these sorts of things. And so it's like such a and it's of course they used like the it's the worst branded version of science you know in the world because they use two words parah which you could say is just short for paranormal and psychology which is the least replicable version of science. So it's like it's almost like self-stigmatizing for like a a modern scientific person or whatever. But I will say, you know, short of, you know, taking every ghost story seriously, which I don't think you should, um, if you look at the advent of quantum mechanics and you had these debates, you had all these guys like figuring out, you know, how does the wave function collapse and you had, um, you know, Heisenberg saying it was this like kind of complex matrix mechanics and then you have Schroinger building on him saying we have this, you know, wave mechanical, you um Schroinger equation what turns into the Schroinger equation and then you have Einstein saying wait like reality can't be probabilistic God doesn't play dice um actually maybe we need to go to a pilot wave model which is like a wave that like you know holds these discrete states like de brogley was this physicist that like you know thought about that sort of thing so you go back to those debates and you look at like how this stuff was discovered and you look at all of these guys and they're all flirting with the idea that the mind has something to do with wave function collapse at one point in their career. Not all of them ended their careers thinking like that. You know, Schroinger sort of famously, you know, disregarded that as like, you know, an explanation. But like he also had a dog whose name was Atman and would finish all his lectures atman equals Brahma. Like these guys were like eastern thinkers. And then you get into David Bow and his sort of implicate order. David Bone by the way is used by kind of newagy people but like he was Einstein's smartest student like you know in a very conventional sense if you read Heisenberg's life in physics he's musing philosophically about like the relationship between consciousness and you know the material world and seems pretty non-dualist to me at least in his speculations and then maybe most famously uh John vonman who was like known to be the highest IQ of all of them created the mathematical underpinnings of quantum mechanics, a lot of modern computational principles. He and his colleague Jonathan Vner like at one point fully had a theory that the mind engaged in wave function collapse. Then you can go later into people like John Wheeler and these are all guys that any conventional physicist would like not really argue with contributed to the bedrock of what we're standing on today. uh you go later into John Wheeler's participatory universe and his like delayed you know choice you know stuff and like he goes right up until parasychology but doesn't you know doesn't say that you know the mind engages in wave function collapse. The point is is like a modern, you know, quantum physicist would like be way more dogmatic about the mind not engaging in quantum and in in in a quantum wave function collapse than the original godfathers of this topic. Meanwhile, speaking of going down the tree trunk of physics and taking another branch, you have elite parasychology programs at every university in the United States. Not every university, but a lot of them. So like you have like WashU had something in the 60s. You had Stanford Research Institute which literally like housed the CIA psychic spy program. You had uh the Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab which was started by Bob John who was dean of their general engineering school and was like a plasma propulsion guy who was well respected in his scientific accomplishments outside of parasychology. Um so you had you had UCLA had one right here. So you had like a lot of these like elite universities looking into parasychology and basically looking at whether the mind interacted with what are conventionally thought of as random quantum mechanical you know uh uh things phenomena. So things like radioactive isotope decay, a photon bouncing around a little box or whatever, or you know, you could do like a double slit experiment where you have a 50/50 expectation of one slit or the other slit, you know, if an observer is present or whatever. And basically, so you have like a known statistical distribution, you hook that up to these random uh or sorry, to these to to these um uh basic computers, binary computers that produce ones and zeros. Um, so say slit, you know, A or or left slit is like, you know, that's a one. Slit B is like, you know, a zero or whatever. And you have an observer present. And you see if there's some sort of observational effect on, again, you're seeing it on a graphical interface, but it's tied to something that's conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics. So, it's essentially a perfect digital coin flip. And within an expected standard deviation, you expect a 50/50 split between ones and zeros over a long enough time scale. And you talk to anybody that was actually in these programs. And again, they're at elite universities. These guys are academics and and and women are academics. They're not like quacky. And all of them, all of them without fail. Like I I really haven't met one who like was like, "Yeah, we looked into it and like nothing was there." They all come out being like your mind does have cohortwide like you know or you know or ac across various cohorts rather um you know uh you know across you know lots and lots of experiments a weak but statistically significant you know effect and so then you get into is the mind engaging in some sort of wave function collapse? Are you rendering reality itself? Is is what you're seeing actually a render of something in the objective material world? Either that or you're shooting some unobtanium particle, you know, fake, you know, photon we haven't discovered out at the thing and collapsing it. And I don't think that's happening. Um, so I think it's something that points more towards like the Penrose like, you know, orchestrated objective reduction where you're like you're collapsing reality with your mind or whatever and you're you're rendering what seems to be a sort of computation. And this would dovetail with you know information theory based physics which again like people like John Wheeler flirted with with you know it from bit and the idea that you know wave function collapse basically is like a bunch of yes no questions from like what seems to be like you know binary code like you know almost like transistor-l like you know activity is creating reality and so that so this is a really long-winded answer to your question but it's like that would explain like everybody's reality being like weird and subjectively extremely idiosyncratic and would explain air pockets of consensus reality um and it would explain Mandela effects and you know there's there's a Schroinger quote about you know measuring a particle in its present that in that affecting its past and all of those guys you know Max Plunk has a weird quote about like the mind creating or being responsible for causality you know so this is these are the types of questions all of these guys were flirting with because the quantum world was So weird. And so if you point to the quantum thing as like uh pointing towards some sort of onlogical truth and not what the Copenhagen interpretation ended up being, which is this formical formal mathematical heruristic where it's, you know, really the line was shut up and calculate. If you actually treat it as like an inroad into onlogical truth in reality, reality is like way weirder than we think. And then then you take the parasychology experiments like seriously and you're like, "Okay, this is data. we're not going to like throw this out. Then all of a sudden you get you start to you can have a science of like explaining a lot of these synchronicities, a lot of these sort of you know mass experiences that seem otherworldly. Allah what happened in Portugal and you know the Fatima sighting of you know the Virgin Mary or whatever and you know 1917 like all all of these things become become more realistic in that sort of world model. Um, so I I I find that to be an extremely intriguing inroad into whatever is happening in reality and UFOs would be a byproduct of that and then a lot of other weirdness in reality would be byproducts of that. But it it it ends up in a plasticity to reality that I don't think a lot of people really want to face. It's like sort of a very jarring thought and I I understand that. And I also don't think there's a great so it's like it's like you know we were talking about anom a buildup of anomalies break the the paradigm. So like uh black body radiation in the 1870s you know didn't it broke you know electromagnetism you know classical electromagnetism in a way that you needed quantum mechanics to explain. Same with like the orbit of mercury. So I would say like the parasychology stuff is data that breaks you know general relativity quantum mechanics you know basic materialist reductionism but in a way that will be explained by future theory but the reason we don't accept it is because we don't have a theory that neatly explains it. And until you have a theory that neatly explains anything it's just oh it's an anomaly you know and so you can explain it away but I would say we systematically discard those. they're just going to build up and they're going to explode the current paradigm and we're gonna get we're gonna get some new thing. [laughter] >> I think the sign of any intelligent human or system is a sort of appreciation of nuance and complexity when it comes to any subject, you know, and um there's obviously just so many factors in a top like topic like this that is so widespread. Who is one person alive and dead today that you think has a novel amount of insight into this topic that you would love to be able to get honest answers from if you were to interview? >> Oh, that's so interesting. [sighs] Hm. I mean alive I you know there are things that like David Grush for example or this guy named Hal put off who I mentioned earlier who's this physicist longtime CIA NSA guy and he shows up he runs the psychic spy program in the US called Stargate out of Stanford and starts it and then he's like becomes you know just shoulder deep in the UFO stuff popping up in all these sort of UFO research groups but like official government research groups and is so implicated in both subjects. I mean, he literally went on Joe Rogan's show and said like he contemplated disclosure with George W. Bush and his whole administration and his national security adviser Steven Hadley and they came to the conclusion it was like too jarring or whatever shocking to like you know let out the truth and maybe the hermeneutic reading on that is that they themselves the you know CIA doesn't have like as strong of a handle on this stuff as they'd like and so that's why they can't admit that this stuff is real but he's one of these figures who pops up in like all the like okay you look into this new interesting exotic framework of you know um electronamics called extended electronamics. I was like okay how put offs there and then you look into this crazy UFO story and like how put offs researched it and uh it's funny he's a friend of mine but he's very cheeky and I know he like you know knows a lot more. He's sitting on a lot more than he can uh than he can say. So >> it's interesting that two people you mentioned are friends of yours >> I know. I know. Well, that's the crazy thing is like I wish there was an ability for them to just go kind of full open kimono and just like say everything they know because >> it would it would accelerate progress on this stuff so much. I also I have a friend who also um runs a multi-billion dollar hedge fund and he ran or helped run the Princeton Parasychology Lab for like 10 years and uh he actually coded up this app called Synctext which is so he's like probably like the world authority on random event generators this experiment that I mentioned and this app basically creates random messages just in the way that you have like the random one and zero >> and they seem to appear kind of synchronistically in your life and it's you can download it says s yncttxt.com and um he is really trippy and interesting cuz he like he has like he's one of the few people that can like I speak to and I'm like oh you don't only have like like you speak to like I don't know there's Dean Raiden at like you know a lot of these guys who have like a lot of the data around random event generators but then they have no idea what to make of it as far as like a world view and like a theory. And with him, you get into some of the more like onlogical like truths behind the experiments. Like it seems like he knows more than he he lets on. And so he's he's fascinating as well. >> Okay. What about dad? >> Yeah, Dad. Yeah. >> Townsen. >> Towns and Brown for sure. I'd love to speak to him and know, >> you know, what's what's I just want to know his whole life experience and like, >> you know, I I I I already feel confident enough, I feel like, to know that the experiments worked somewhat, but like where did he get thwarted? Where did they go? Like your question, like where is it sitting now? Uh that would be so illuminating. And then I don't know like a mystical like a you know Jesus or the Buddha or something like I feel like somebody reaching that state would be just amazing to be be in the presence of. What about if an alien like a non-human intelligence [laughter] were like allowed you to ask them one question that they would be transparent about? What would you ask that would, I guess, confirm the validity of them or >> you think would [clears throat] most radically deepen your understanding of the reality of of this all? >> Oh, it's so interesting. And it's is it only one question? Yes. I would like interrogate them. Like [laughter] >> it's tough as far as like verifying them, right? Because I think our cosmological, you know, worldview is very limited. And so it's like if you say when did the big bang happen? like I you know I don't know if our understanding of like like that's that's been revised a few times you know so I don't know you know I would probably ask something about like I would probably assume that like they're legit and I wouldn't want to like ver you know I would just say like if I have one question are you are you one of the bad guys >> yeah yeah because like if you if you wasted on that then you're like okay that's just like another data point that they're real to begin with yeah you're one of the bad guys I'd say like you know what what is like uh what is a human being and what is the role of humanity like in the world? I mean it's really those are two questions >> run on question a little bit. No, the what what is a what is a human? Like what are what are we? >> Because I don't I you know science for the longest time is like treated the human as this like mechanical non-exception to the rest of the world. And like my strong instinct is that there's something about our consciousness that is actually exceptional. And uh you know if they had any insight into that that would be great. >> Let me know if if it ever happens you can come back [laughter] on me and report. I'm sure you'll go to your platform for um >> I'll let you know. You you'll get the exclusive. [laughter] >> I thought of randomly this like Have you seen this series called Pantheon? I think it's on Netflix now. It's like two series. >> I highly recommend it. The last two episodes, >> episodes seven and eight give us sort of the show is about like uploaded intelligence and sort of understanding this question of who we are. But really beautiful writing and um it's uh it's fascinating the sort of example these higher beings at the end give to this nested reality we find ourselves in. And um >> for some reason your your the question >> that you would ask made me think of that moment when they essentially ask the same question to these alien beings which are essentially them. I don't want to spoil too much but >> what do they say? I'm so curious. >> I I do honestly I don't want to ruin it. you you would love it. You can look up the ending on YouTube. It's basic, but um >> it's cool. >> Okay, I'll check it out. Yeah, I feel like it would just be so counterintuitive, you know? Or maybe not. Maybe it's like I don't know. It'd be disappointing almost if it was just like something expected. Yeah. >> What would you ask them? Hm. Probably to give me a coherent framework that collapses neuroscience, consciousness, and physics into a cohesive model that explains reality >> or something like that. >> I love that. That's ambitious. [laughter] >> Yeah. I feel like maybe the more simple approach would actually be better. Like cuz I feel like the more detail you would add in the question, it uh it also kind of reveals the boundaries of your epistemics and might actually limit the depth of the answer because you're um you're you're speaking in a language that is inherently like limiting to you. a question that's maybe more open-ended like what is a human being allows potentially more depth but maybe steelmanning your approach like they might end up answering in a way that's so unintelligible without guidance and guard rails on the epistemics >> that you end up trying to translate it forever. >> Yeah. Just ruins [laughter] Yeah. Just lose your mind. >> Yeah. >> Like a monkey. like a dumb monkey trying to run around and >> they give you some riddle just, [laughter] you know, chasing your tail forever. >> All right. Well, if there's any aliens listening right now, [laughter] hit your boys up. I got some questions. >> Let's go. Yeah. Come hang out. >> Oh, man. This is I could talk to you for another 3 hours. I think we've been going for about 3 hours. Um >> I love this, man. I'm down to hop on whenever. >> Um yeah, we'll have to run it back at at another point, man. It's been really cool to see the arc of your creative journey, your journalism. I call them documentaries earlier cuz I really feel like that man. You put so much love and your team probably like just you guys put so much effort into >> producing something that is uh extremely depth uh extremely deep has like accounting across the board is very um thoughtprovoking and um I'm just very fascinated to see where your journey goes. I'm sure you are as well, but like what you continue to create the information that gets uh revealed in the coming years and uh yeah, I think voices like yours are are super needed, man. So, thank you so much for for coming on and and jamming and I'm just looking forward to to chatting more offline. >> Same, man. And everything you said back at you. I was telling you earlier, but I feel like I should tell you on air, too, that I think what you're doing is super unique and needed. And I I really I can't think of anybody in our generation who's like you called me grounded and reasonable. I feel like you're the same. But you're also delving into kind of esoteric spiritual truths and sometimes sifting through snake oil as I am. Um but in a in a way that like is is bridging like really like the knowledge is going to get lost if you don't do it. And I brought up Robert Gilbert as an example. So, um, I appreciate what you said about me, but I feel the same way about you. >> Thanks, man. >> Yeah, >> let's go on a date now. [laughter] >> We're going to make out. >> Yeah. Yeah. This episode ends. Um, but no, dude, it's such I mean, just like I'm sure you feel it's like such a gift to be able to do what we do. Like, it's to be able to go down the path that just makes us most come alive and that it gets to be like a gift for others also is uh is so sick. So so grateful for >> it's we're so lucky and uh yeah it's a it's a true blessing. Yeah. We get to talk to trippy interesting people about the nature of the universe all day. It's [laughter] great. >> Yeah. And navigate the discernment with it all. And it's cool, man. I'm I'm excited to keep keep chopping it up. Um everybody who's listening, I'm so curious what you think about this episode, this conversation. Um there are so many alternative theories, some of which we didn't even get into, which is kind of hard to believe in a three-hour podcast, you know, but um it's a topic that I think a lot of people have uh opinions on. >> Yeah. >> For better or worse, and it's fun to explore those. And so, uh regardless, nonetheless, let us know what you thought of this episode. And thank you for being a part of this community. And until next time, be well. Thank you, Jesse. Oh, and last, very last thing, people can stay connected with you and your work. We'll leave links down in the description to your YouTube channel and and anything else you want to point people. >> No, that's perfect, man. And thank you. >> All right. Cool. >> Found it. >> All right. >> All right, bro. >> Love it. [music] >> [music]

In this conversation, Jesse Michels joins me to explore a question that’s becoming harder to dismiss: what if the phenomenon we call UFOs points to something real—and we don’t yet know what it is? Rather than arguing for belief or disbelief, this episode is an invitation to curiosity, careful inquiry, and intellectual honesty about the limits of our current understanding. We examine historical UFO encounters near nuclear sites, government secrecy, and the growing body of anomalies that don’t sit comfortably within a purely materialist worldview. This is a conversation about staying grounded while remaining open. About asking better questions. And about whether phenomena like UFOs, non-human intelligence, or something we haven’t yet named might be nudging us to expand how we think about reality, consciousness, and our place in the universe. Momentous: Best Creatine in the game https://livemomentous.com [Use code KNOWTHYSELF for up to 35% off] BONCHARGE - 15% off red light therapy products I personally use https://www.boncharge.com/knowthyself [Code: KNOWTHYSELF] Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 00:00 Intro 06:36 Questioning the Nature of Reality 09:18 A Timeline of Non-Human Intelligence Evidence 23:37 Why Nuclear Sites Attract Attention 31:55 Extraordinary Claims, Extraordinary Evidence 40:29 Ad: Momentous 41:51 Letting Go of Human-Centric Thinking 47:49 Studying Claims Without Dismissing People 58:58 Non-Human Biologics and Physical Evidence 1:06:10 Ad: Boncharge 1:07:25 What May Have Been Quietly Explored 1:18:55 The Hidden Branch of Physics 1:26:38 Reframing Aliens Through Consciousness 1:33:33 Grays, Nordics, and Reptilians Explained 1:40:10 Why We Don’t See Reality Directly 1:53:58 Glimpses Outside Linear Time 1:58:44 Why Aliens Look Strangely Human 2:07:32 Shared Phenomena in Altered States 2:15:32 Jesse’s Personal UFO Experiences 2:23:35 The Monolith as a Metaphor 2:29:07 The Problem With Visual Proof 2:35:24 What Is Actually Happening? 2:46:47 Voices Worth Listening To 2:51:22 What Would You Ask an Alien? 2:53:19 Closing Thoughts ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.youtube.com/Jessemichels https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial/ https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com Listen to the show: Spotify: https://spoti.fi/4bZMq9l Apple: https://apple.co/4iATICX