The Hidden Cause of Fatigue, Brain Fog, & Inflammation (And How to Reverse It) | Dr. Will Bulsiewicz

Three out of five people ultimately will die from inflammatory health conditions. So that means like we're playing a silly game when we're addressing symptoms without actually getting to the source of our problems. >> Mhm. >> And it turns out that we're all a bit silly when we make it sound like nutrition is the only thing that matters because there is so much more. I've discovered that our mood is clearly impacted [music] by our gut in several powerful ways. Where do you think is the most effective place to start to guard what's coming in? That way we don't have to try to heal what could be prevented. Like it's actually quite simple. Here's an example and I did not know this. 80% of the chemicals and there's 10,000 of them now and climbing have never had a feeding study on a human or an animal. So we're speculating that they're safe. Like that's the extent of what we're doing here. So here's the interesting thing. We're going to play a little game. I will list the ingredients in a commonly used product and you will guess what it is. Here we go. Need I say more? It's insane. It's disturbing. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Know Thyself podcast. Our guest today is a leading gastroenterenterologist, a gut health expert, a New York Times best-selling author, somebody that I loved having a conversation with last time. His work has been mentioned over 5,000 times by other researchers. And it's by no wonder cuz he's an incredible articulator of um very important messaging around gut health, around the immune system, and how to increase vitality as a human being in general. Dr. Will Bolitz, thank you for coming back. >> Thank you, Andre. It's great to be here. >> If somebody who's listening to this episode right now is asking themselves, as they often may do, what is the most meaningful shift I could have by the end of this conversation? What can I look forward to? the promise of this conversation, why people should be tuning in. >> Honestly, I'm going to say to you the exact same thing that I wrote in the very beginning of my brand new book is an author's note. And I said that within these pages, there's this book that like I've written one book that's for everyone, right? But there's going to be something specific to you. So healing is very personal. What is the thing that we individually need? We can't define that ahead of time, right? because that that depends on the individual person. But when you hear it, when you discover that, you have that aha moment. You go, "Oh my gosh, that's the thing that I've been missing and it can be the thing that changes your life." So healing is possible, but I think it's important for us all to understand it comes in many forms and we have to find that thing for us. >> Let's start diving in then, shall we? There's a couple unique angles I want to pull from that builds on our last conversation that are amazing themes in your new book by the way, Plantp Powered Plus. Congratulations on that. >> Thank you. >> Um I believe in you and your message and and how you share a lot and so I'm excited to help get that out there. Um first thing I want to start with is how much of our mood is controlled by our gut? That's a good question. I think actually more than we realize. So, and that's not that's not to say that we're um like basically zombies who are just being controlled by our bacterial overlords. Like that being said, our mood is clearly impacted by our gut in several powerful ways. If you take a look at people who have complex mood disorders like major depression for example, if you were to look under the hood, you would discover that their gut microbiome is unwell. It's struggling. And there's a specific pattern. And if I were to characterize it, it's an inflammatory pattern. And it's interesting to describe it that way because there's been a shift within the space of both neurology and psychiatry of understanding that there are mood disorders, there are cognitive disorders that are driven by neuroinflammation. So major depression being one of them, generalized anxiety disorder, but you don't need to qualify for these, you know, major health conditions in order to have uh the impact of like your mood being affected. So I I think that like that really just demonstrates the way in which these gut microbes are connected to our brain. And you know, we all I don't really drink anymore. Um we can talk more about that if you want to. There was a period in my life where I drank like it was not never out of control but it was definitely there and on the weekends sometimes too much. And one of the things that I'm so glad I don't have to deal with anymore is just the mood fluctuations that happened. And you know, the day after you just were so down and and kind of like in some ways, at least for me, kind of paranoid a little bit, like thinking things about friends. Did like are they thinking this about me? Right? Just like way overthinking it. And I am now convinced that our gut microbes like are the reason why we end up with hangovers and also why a person would be feeling that way within the context of like having drink too much alcohol. >> Mhm. If our emotional states, preferences, and cravings are all shaped by our microbes, what does that say about free will? I know you sort of jokingly mentioned these bacterial overlords that control us, but you just look at a few parameters in our gut that we shift and that our experience of self and the world radically changes. So, I'm just curious as as a as a bit of an inquiry. Yeah. What do you what are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah. So um this the gut microbiome is an ecosystem that lives inside of us and our superpower as humans is our ability to shape ecosystems. We can change our environment and we also have the ability to change the environment inside of us. And so, and it's it's ultimately our choices. And that doesn't mean that there aren't compulsions or addictions or challenges that exist to that. But to um frame it as if we we don't have choice, right? That there is no free will. that basically the microbes are defining everything was hard for me to really understand that because ultimately they're the ones who are forced to adapt to whatever it is that we do, >> right? So I would actually argue that they're the ones that have the absence of free will. We're the ones that have choice and the choices that we make ultimately are reflected and imprinted >> within our microbiome. >> It's fascinating just to observe the interplay between both, right? how we shape our environment, how our environment shapes us and our microbes, how that influences our decisions, how our decisions influence them, right? So, I just love the holistic approach you bring to the ecosystem that we are a part of. Um, because it's not as simple as of course just we have absolute free will or not. There's of course a cascade of different influences at any given moment. Andre, we at least I'll I'll speak for myself that I felt for most of my life like, hey, we're human. We're the dominant creatures on this planet. We get to make all choices without repercussions. We can do whatever we want. I can I can go out in my yard and rechange change the whole thing. Chop down a tree if I want to. Right? you start to feel like you're untouchable. Um, and where I'm at today and what's changed is that actually we are completely intertwined with the world that surrounds us and we can't actually separate ourselves from that. And the ways in which we impact that environment intentionally or unintentionally ultimately will reverberate back to us at some point. It's just a sort of a question of when and I think we you can look on this look at this on so many levels but actually they end up sort of converging in parallel because it could be a micro level right where we talk about how our choices impact our gut microbes and then as you just mentioned it's sort of like uh circular in nature where you impact your gut microbes and then that impacts you and how you feel and your mood and your cravings and you know and your motivations and round and round we go in that circle. Um, but I also think that there's like this broader conversation of like, okay, so we dumped plastic into the ocean and now we have to deal with the fact that like are we able to consume products from the ocean safely anymore or are they all sort of laden with microplastics, nanoplastics in a way that we should actually be avoiding them? Um, or and that's just like one example, you know. I I I think that the entire point is that we ultimately are a product of our environment and yes, we can shape that environment, but sometimes we as humans, we think we're so smart and capable of like making everything perfect the way we want it, and then there's unintentional consequences that come back. H when you speak to how we are completely intertwined with our surroundings and through diving more into your work, I really appreciate all the different threads you pull of all the different influences we have from the environmental toxins from the diet and lifestyle interventions and the changes and how that affects so many things within our our body and mind. uh to something that I feel inspired to bring up because you mentioned sort of this these two diseases of modern society which are individualism and materialism. >> So in chapter 8 of your book you sort of dive into the mind body connection the emotional and and uh aspects of trauma that affect our entic nervous system. Mhm. >> And so for people that don't know what that is, I would love to start to unpack the different influences of the psychological psychossematic components and how that affects our gut. >> Okay. Definitely. I think we have to build towards this if that's okay. Yeah. >> Um and I I think where that conversation starts so ultimately just for the listeners where we're going to land is a conversation about culture and how we have normalized things that I actually don't think are working for us. In fact, they're working against us. But before we get there, we have to sort of start with um the way in which our body works. So, there are these things, Andre, that I think sometimes people think they're woo woo and they dismiss them, right? And yet, I'm here to tell you that I can explain the physiology of what's actually happening in the body. So, let's not pretend that it's not real. What's an example of what would be perceived as woowoo that you like to break down? Well, I just think anytime we talk about mind, body, gut, feelings, like things that are like uh a bit more ethereal, >> 100% >> grounding it into the real physiology. >> Go go go and take uh so in my book in chapter 8, there's a list of interventions that activate your parasympathetic nervous system. And if you go and you review that list, I'm here to tell you that I have research to back every single thing up. Um, but if you were to take that exact same list and go back to like the year 2005, you'd be like, "That's a bunch of woo woo crap, right? That's not real." I specifically remember, by the way, before we dive into this, when I was at the school of public health at the University of North Carolina, which is like either Harvard, Hopkins, Johns Hopkins, or University of North Carolina, those are the number one schools of public health. So, we're they're training the best and the brightest. And I remember sitting there 15 years ago and they're just like, "Accupuncture is BS." Like, flat out acupuncture is BS. And you know, you could put those needles wherever and it doesn't matter. And actually, I don't think it is. And I've seen things that indicate to me that actually what was BS is being close-minded. >> Mhm. >> So anyway, but where we have to start is understanding the physiology of how our body reacts and responds to the environment in non-concious ways. And so what I mean by that is that you don't necessarily have the opportunity to have a thought and have your hands at the wheel controlling everything that your body is doing. There's times at which your body is reacting and responding to whatever is happening and because it thinks it knows what it needs and we call this the autonomic nervous system. Uh so and in a way the autonomic nervous system is intended to like rise to the occasion when it's really necessary or on the flip side to slow it down and make it like nice and chill. And when it's rising to the occasion, which I make it sound so wonderful, I'll unpack that. That's our sympathetic nervous system. So that is like basically you get focused, your heart rate picks up, your blood pressure picks up, and like if in theory you were under attack, right? If we were living during cave cave people times and some other tribe was attacking us, you absolutely need that, right? Because you have to be prepared to defend yourself. So, you need those enhancements. But the problem is that you don't get to do that without a trade-off. There's always a trade-off. And the trade-off is you just compromised your gut. So, your body will release a hormone called corticotropen releasing hormone, CR. This is your stress response. This is adrenaline getting basically activated. Um, the adrenaline comes from your adrenal glands, but it's the CR that sets off this cascade that affects your adrenal glands, your muscle, all these different tissues. And in the process, it disrupts your gut barrier. And when you disrupt the gut barrier, then you are going to allow things that are inside of your gut to leak across that aren't supposed to be there. And I may call that increased intestinal permeability, but like common language for that would be leaky gut. And that's totally fair game. And if those things leak across your immune system, 70% of your immune system is a line in your gut because that's where we interact with the outside world and your immune system is there for a specific reason which is that when there's a threat, the immune system responds. So the point is that in this moment where we activate the sympathetic nervous system, we actually are creating dispiosis, leaky gut and inflammation. And we in the modern world go through our days sympathetic overdrive. And it's just like non-stop. This is how we live. we move from one sympathetic thing to another sympathetic thing. Now the counterpoint sort of like the yin and yang the counterpoint to sympathetic overdrive is activation of your parasympathetic nervous system and this is this is mediated through the vagus nerves. So we have these paranerves that I find to be quite fascinating because they actually are connected directly to your brain and we have special holes in our skull that allow these nerves to pass through from your brain through your neck all the way down to involve your chest, your heart and your gut and and within your gut directly connected to millions of nerves. So, and when we activate the parasympathetic nervous system, we enter into a state of relaxation and we feel comfortable and within that context, we feel safe and the body is able to heal and restore itself. The gut microbes, they get healthier. The gut barrier becomes secure. And when the gut barrier is secure, the immune system is safe and protected too. And so inflammation cools off and the immune cells are able to basically get reorganized and get more precise, more capable of doing their job, which is really to defend against the real threats, not not just leaky gut. So but in order to activate parasympathetic, we have to make choices that actually get us there. And that those things are the woowoo things. And it's kind of interesting because when you start to um take a look at them, I mean, some of them are things that we all know like sauna um or yoga or massage, but there's also things that are really more about human connection and how much we need each other. So, examples would be holding hands or a hug um or just feeling bonded to another person. And there's things also that are about spiritual connection and our need to understand our place in the universe and what our purpose is, why we're here. And so prayer uh or um uh meditation or uh or singing or dancing like these are all different aspects opportunities that we have. So, okay, now that we've established that there's physiology that sort of explains the human experience and that we are on sympathetic overdrive, we turn to culture and we have to understand where we came from and now where we are today and is it a fit for our biology? That's the question that we're going to keep coming back to. So where we came from was we lived in tribes and like if we were in a tribe you and I together I have my family you have yours and though that is actually like the measure of wealth right because there is no money there is no house there is no showing off for others there is do you have enough people around you who love you support you that that keep you alive regardless of what your needs are. Um so the measure of wealth was always about human connection and this is the reason why we feel safest when we are connected but enter in 21st century culture. I mean it's not really just the 21st century there's been a multi-gener multi-entury build to this. I mean clearly there were kings and castles back in the day. people became like interested in uh owning stuff, right? But we redefined our priorities and one of the things that's happened is we became obsessed with material wealth and that so that materialism it drives us and in many ways we define ourselves. We all are guilty of this. I'm guilty of this. We define ourselves. Did like you know how big is your house? What car do you drive? Right? What are the other things that you own that that make you important and must mean that you matter? Um and that has unfortunately that is not aligned with our need for human connection. So if your goal is wealth and that's what you target, it can very very quickly and easily result in you sacrificing your need for human connection. But if that human connection that is so deeply ingrained in the human experience and who we are and the way that we're wired is what you actually need in order to be happy, then that's a mistake, right? And the other that you mentioned that's in chapter eight of my book is indiv is individualism. And this is the idea that Will is going to turn 18, leave the home, go out into the world, and I'm going to prove that I can do it because if I can't then like I'm a loser, right? So, so the way that I do that is I basically go off, do my own thing, separate from my family, and at some point like, yeah, I, you know, here I am, I'm 45, I'm married, I have four children, right? But at the same time, like, my parents don't live with me, right? I have completely separated from them. Do I call them? Yeah. Is that the same as is the same as being in the home together as a unit? No, it's not. And so this concept of individualism that's led us to a place where we like separate out and we have our own house and our own space and it's separate from our parents and we're not allowed to be together with them, right? As opposed to the multi-generation home. That's where we came from. >> Mhm. >> And so so here we are and Andre there's an epidemic of loneliness out there. So, and the the statistics are from before the pandemic, and I'm quite sure they're way worse now. And before the pandemic, there was 50% of people in America who felt that they were lonely. So, it's a scary thing because that's not that's not just like a trivial feeling. Um, it's it's actually not discussed often enough. We focus on like you know food and alcohol and tobacco and these other things and but we don't talk about this yet through the sympathetic nervous system when you are separated from those people when you don't feel emotionally bonded to others and fully connected then you have sacrificed your parasympathetic nervous system and you have activated your sympathetic nervous system and you feel you feel threatened and you feel unsafe. And the result of this is that it affects your health through those through those physiologic mechanisms that I described. And and so what they've shown is that loneliness is like on par with being a regular smoker in terms of the impact on your longevity and your risk of disease. Most most people are familiar with the central nervous system, the brain, the spinal cord. uh you're referring to in all these different influences um that aren't just purely like uh biological or diet based uh that we will get into more the the physiology and biology of it all. But for those those that don't know the vastness of how our vagus nerve connects through our entic nervous system and um the uh the vast web of what over 500 million neurons or something like that. So there's about 500 million nerves that carpet our gut >> constantly feeling and sensing. Now to contextualize this, that's five times what you will find in your spinal cord. So it's the number two location in terms of nerves um other than your brain. Your brain clearly has more. So in every moment of every day as we sit here right now, those nerves are feeling and sensing and collecting information. 500 million of them. 500 million inputs or signals and it gets consolidated into this pair of nerves that have run from your brain straight down to your gut. Think of it like the roots of a tree, right? That have spread out, fanned out, and all that information gets sent upstairs. So actually 80% of the fibers within the vagus nerves are designed to receive information from the gut and send it up to the brain. And this is the the idea of like for example gut feelings. >> Mhm. >> This is where we think it comes from is like that gut feelings is not an exclusively gut thing. Although it it's kind of interesting how we appropriately describe it. >> Mhm. >> Right. It's not exclusively a gut thing. What it is is we think it's the it's the consolidation of information where your brain is listening to what is in your gut, thinking on some level consciously, but also tapping into your non-concious mind and basically real quick coming up with an answer when you need an answer. And um it actually turns out that many times you're better off going with your gut feelings than you are thinking it through. It's fascinating because as you spoke to in the most individualistic and materialistic culture, our center of gravity has really kind of become in our head like the intellect and logic and reason all incredible faculties have largely become the most predominant form of interacting and knowing and deducing reality. Like I said, I like many of us at various times fall into the overuse and overidentifying of that mode of knowing. But there are all these other forms of knowing and where the ancient wisdom traditions talk about a level of knowing and wisdom that is born from more of the heart and more of the gut. And so I find it really fascinating to speak to the intelligence of these centers because they are underutilized in the culture we live in as you've been speaking to. You know, this word intelligence I I find to be like fascinating because I feel like we even with the word intelligence, we um use it in a modern sense to think about like the ability for the brain to process information, right? Logic or like now we're shifting this to computers and the ability of computers, artificial intelligence, etc. Um but one of the things that I wrote about in the book is actually the intelligence of nature which comes from a different place but in some ways I actually think it's superior because intelligence which is your ability to deduce and reason. Um, you could be wrong, but nature provides through the intelligence of millions, billions of years of information basically being consolidated and being passed down through these lineages that exist that bring us all the way forward to today. And you and I received the benefit of everything that came before us to build us into who we are today. And there's so much intelligence that goes into that. And and on the topic, by the way, of of uh uh traditions outside of like alipathic medicine, I think there's the it's so clear to me that there's ton of intelligence there. And what they were doing was not running randomized control trials and using complex computer algorithms, but instead they were basically consolidating their observations over thousands of years. So it's the same general concept of like information over time is intelligence and it allows us to land in a better place. And there are aspects to those traditions that have proven to be more right than our ability to be right using clinical trials and >> complex algorithms. >> To just dive a bit deeper into this notion of like unlocking more of our full mind body intelligence capacity, right? We're spoken we're speaking to this difference between the intellect and a deeper sense of knowing that comes online. The Buddhists have this term non-conceptual valid cognition, meaning cognition that is true, but it's non-conceptual. And so, it's utilizing the vastness of our body, our gut feelings, our intuitions. And I'm curious for you to unpack a bit more about how the vast majority of serotonin and dopamine produced in the gut and how disbiosis can directly affect or distort intuition potentially. >> Yeah, that's interesting. Well, so it turns out that, and we may have discussed this on our first episode together, that [gasps] I didn't realize in medical school that there were so many neurotransmitters produced in the gut. So, there's over 30 neurotransmitters. I can't name 30. I I'm not even close to naming 30. I can probably name like six. So, there's 30 neurotransmitters produced in the gut. 95% of serotonin, which is the happy hormone produced in the gut, and um and 50% of dopamine. The brain produces its own stores of serotonin and dopamine. They're not necessarily crossing over, but it's important to understand that you cannot under any circumstances separate the gut from the brain. They're completely interconnected. So whether the serotonin from the gut affects the mood directly or whether actually the pathway is through short- chain fatty acids produced by the gut microbes and also the vagus nerve and the activity of the vagus nerve. It kind of doesn't matter because at the end of the day the message ends up being the same thing which is that the gut has influence over what we experience in our brain. And um so now these uh these hormones they also uh uh these neurotransmitters they do turn out to be more interesting and sophisticated than you might realize. So here's an example and I did not know this until I was preparing this book. It took me three years to write this book. I spent a lot of time in research. So I knew like 95% of serotonin is produced in the gut. Here's what I didn't know. I didn't know that serotonin is actually the precursor to melatonin. So the serotonin that we produce by day turns into melatonin at night. Melatonin is the sleepy time hormone. So many people in America have heard of melatonin the supplement and you think, "Oh, that's something that I take to sleep better." Your body produces melatonin on a daily basis and that level of melatonin rises in darkness. And so in the evening you were designed where your melatonin levels would rise and if not for electricity, which is a very new thing, you would have no issue because that melatonin would rise and you would fall asleep. But here's so here's the interesting thing. Uh, first of all, I've discovered that morning light exposure is one of the most powerful ways to address insomnia and to improve the quality of our sleep. And it it seems like it's paradoxical, but it's not at all because in part, morning sunlight allows us to set the circadian rhythm so that your body will know when it's time to sleep. And part of what morning sunlight does is it produces serotonin. And it produces serotonin in the brain. This by the way is the reasons of light produces serotonin in the brain. This is the reason why people get seasonal effective disorder where in the winter time they get sad. And the treatment which is very simple, highly effective and has no downside is light exposure. So light creates serotonin in the brain. Light also has an effect on our gut and leads to the enhanced production of serotonin in our gut. >> And between the serotonin in our gut in the morning and cortisol which is part of our circadian rhythm and within that synchronized context is actually perfect. It's what we need in the morning. That is what restores gut motility in the morning. turns on our gut and allows us to have a good healthy morning bowel movement. But I mentioned a moment ago that serotonin is the precursor to melatonin. And it turns out that if you get your morning light exposure, you can literally mark mark the clock and add 14 hours and that's the time that you're going to notice you start feeling sleepy. >> So you wake up at 7, 9, 14 hours, 9:00 p.m. 14 hours later. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And you start to feel sleepy right now. You could you could screw that up if you were like going to look at devices and bright lights and things like this. Artificial artificial lights will suppress melatonin by 30%. Um, but that that morning light exposure turns into melatonin in the evening. So, here's the interesting thing, Andre. The serotonin that we just talked about producing both in the brain and in the gut is going to turn into melatonin. It turns out that melatonin is 400 times higher in our gut than it is in our brain. So when I read that, I was like, what is that melatonin doing? I thought that was just for sleep. And it turns out that melatonin impacts our immune system. Uh our actually our immune system is nocturnal. Now most people probably don't realize that that we get more active in terms of our immune system at night. This is the reason why you get congested at night or like you get that cough >> and allergies allergies flare up before bedtime or something. >> Allergies flare up. A lot of people that have like rheumatoid arthritis, it might get worse at night. Um people that have Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, they can notice it and it's worse at night. So your immune system activates at night and then in the morning we were talking about cortisol. Cortisol is a steroid suppresses your immune system. This is the reason why you wake up, your nose was congested, and then an hour later it's clear because that morning cortisol response has basically cleared it out. >> Mhm. >> So anyway, the melatonin at night that's in your gut is actually helping to restore your gut barrier. It plays a really important role in healing the gut barrier overnight so that whatever is happening in terms of inflammation because your immune system becomes more active. Whatever is happening at night from inflammation, the melatonin is ensuring that we have a enhanced gut barrier during that period of time, which is good for the gut microbes. >> Hey fam, I get asked all the time about what kind of tea I am drinking on the show. 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I would imagine most people do, right? Anytime you get sick, it's your immune system that steps up and takes care of it. And within that context, that's exactly what you want. If you if you get exposed to some sort of pathogen, you want your immune system to take it out. If you hurt yourself, you cut yourself, you need to heal that wound, you need your immune system in order to heal that wound. Um but uh actually what I've discovered is the immune system is actually your third layer of defense. So actually your gut microbes are the first layer and then the gut microbes are the stewards of the gut barrier. So our entire intestinal system is carpeted with a single layer of cells held together by these proteins called tight junctions. And the tight junctions and that entire layer of cells are powered by butyrate. Butyrate is what we get from consuming fiber produced by our gut microbes. And every 3 to 5 days we actually completely replace our gut lining. So there's no other part of our body that turns over like that. But it's actually very interesting to think about because to me this is an organ. In fact, I would argue that the the gut lining is like our most important immune organ. So when I say immune, I don't just mean the cells like neutrfils and lymphosytes and I'll talk about those in a second, but like to me immune is referring to like our our layers of protection and the gut lining is the biggest most vast most important one from my perspective. And so um so it's a beautiful opportunity that we have that like choices that we make over the next 3 to 5 days could lead to us having a healthier gut lining, a stronger gut barrier. And the reason why that becomes so important is and we we touched on this briefly a little bit earlier is that when it's intact, you are protecting the actual immune system. And the immune system is broken into two major parts. There is the innate immune system and the innate immune system is actually uh what has developed through evolution. So when I mentioned a moment ago the intelligence of nature is so perfectly defined in this the innate immune system because you and I have both received this and it was present at birth. It was preloaded ready to defend us. And it's not just the product of our lives, our parents' lives. No, no, it's not even just the product of human existence. I would like I would make the argument that our innate immune system started evolving a billion years ago and it was the things that were occurring when this world was dominated by single cellular organisms and the things that started to occur when single cellular organisms started forming meatballs. Mhm. >> And I guess in a literal sense, it was a meatball, >> plants and yeah, fungi and animal life that were emergent from multisellular. >> Yeah. Right. And those multisellular things continued to exist in a single cellular dominated world. We still live in a single cellular dominated world by the way. >> Everything around us unless humans have done something is involving microbes. So and it's through that evolution that uh our innate immune system started to understand what is a threat what is dangerous to us as humans and it identified a main thing which is something called lipopolysaccharide. Lipop polysolyaccharide is the armor that coats specific types of bacteria that are pathogenic. They cause infections like E.coli, Salmonella, Sheigela. If you've heard of these and you've heard of nasty infections, those are the lipopolysaccharide type bacteria. And so if that gut barrier is not intact, the ones that you naturally have that we all have and they're part of the ecosystem and they're fine when they're in balance with those microbes. But if the barrier breaks down, they can get through and now your innate immune system was taught that's the threat. So the minute you sense that you got to attack, you got to kill it. That's inflammation. Mhm. >> Inflammation is the activation of the immune system. Now, these little boogers, they are crafty. These little microbes, they're crafty. Our superpower, Andre, is that we can shape our environment. But we have a fatal flaw, which is that we're not adaptable like at all. And the microbes, they are like fast, right? So they can adapt to their environment super quick because like they're you know us it takes us 30 years to create a new generation them 20 minutes. >> Yeah. >> Right. So the the scale of evolution for them what happens during the course of a 24-hour day for them is like thousands of years for microbes right in terms of the evolutional evolutionary potential for them. >> Mh. And so they have the ability to work around the immune system to have like basically uh mutations that would allow them to sneak through the innate immune system. So we developed a second part to our immune system, the most powerful part which is the adaptive immune system. And these are like antibodies and the adaptive immune system comes from specifically a group of cells called lymphosytes. So, um, it takes you a couple days to start to manufacture those antibodies, like 3 to 5 days. When there's a new threat, a new problem, you got to create the antibodies, but once you do, they're going to destroy that thing. Like, they are powerful. So, would you then track the vast majority nearly all of chronic disease to origins of some sort of inflammation in the body? >> Yes. So, and this is the this is the central thesis of my new book because number one, we have an inflammation problem and it's massive and I and I don't think I can be hyperbolic because of how big this is. So, breaking a couple things down, I'm going to start with the small numbers and build towards the big numbers. All right, number one, 10% of Americans have an autoimmune disease. That's tens of millions of people. One in three people in the United States have been diagnosed with an allergic health condition. An allergic health condition is when your immune system is is confused and is attacking things outside your body. So like asthma, seasonal allergies, uh food allergies, eczema, those are allergies. One in three people, that's 100 million people. Um, we now have it where about 60% of people have been formally diagnosed with a chronic health condition that has with clarity inflammation as it at its core. That could be heart disease, that can be cancer, diabetes, and you could go down the line and there's an entire laundry list. I actually think the 60% number is far too low because when I was researching this book, I asked the question, if I go on a podcast, how many health conditions can I identify where inflammation is clearly shown in a research study with that health condition? And I can back I can back it up with with studies to prove it. And I found over 130. So there's over 130 health conditions that I know with absolute clarity inflammation is there. Um so and three out of five people ultimately will die from inflammatory health conditions. So that means like chances are this is what's going to get us >> 60%. >> Two of us likely one of us. [laughter] And then like let's think about let's talk about the symptoms of inflammation because it starts to sound like oh everyone's inflamed then >> yeah maybe they are actually >> right so if if we think about this um starting moving top to bottom it could be your mood it could be your ability to focus right ADHD it it could be uh headaches migraine headaches it could be um brain fog All right, those are all symptoms. Uh congestion in your nose, uh skin issues, breakouts, um uh joint issues, so joint discomfort, muscularkeeletal discomfort, like just general soreness. Um in the gut, bloating, uh hormonal issues. So in women, fertility, pmenopause, menopause. Okay, like clearly we've been talking about these things quite a bit recently in men erectile dysfunction. But if I were to characterize the number one symptom of inflammation and the one that I see is psych, I'm not arguing that every single time that you feel this way, it must be inflammation. But what I am arguing is that when you have inflammation, you will feel this way. And it is fatigue. So, feeling super tired, feeling like the wind just got taken out of your sales. And I know we've all experienced this when you have an infection, but what about like like would Red Bull and Monster Energy be such a thing if we didn't have an energy problem in the United States? Right? And so, I'm I'm of the belief, Andre, that like you think about all those symptoms. I think there's like two takeaways that I want people to hear. Number one, that's a lot of people. Number two, you go to your doctor and you you sort of have this package of symptoms and you could go to many different doctors for many different symptoms, but they're not necessarily going to turn to you and be like, you know, there's this one thing that's sort of tying it all together and it's a single word and it's inflammation. And that's the story that like ultimately we have to get to because if that's the root, we need to address the root. And we're we're playing uh we're playing a silly game when we're addressing symptoms and doing whack-a-ole on that without actually getting to the source of our problems. >> Mhm. >> It seems though, and you effectively make the case for how what has become normalized today is not is very biologically abnormal for how we evolved. And there are a cascade of environmental toxins surrounding us in our homes uh that are becoming increasingly more difficult to avoid. Um and I always try to strike this balance of acknowledging how resilient we are as human beings, but this toxic overload is not something we want to ignore because of all the effects it's going to have on us psychologically, physiologically. And so I would love to actually just quickly run through some of the most detrimental environmental toxins to keep in mind because we need to detox more than ever in today's culture. Um but first line of defense would be preventative measures, you know. So uh yeah, we can start with whichever is your favorite. [laughter] >> Well, so I guess you know the way I would frame it is to say this like I think that in order to have an effective book where you're going to have a real conversation with people, you have to go there. Yeah, >> you [snorts] have to talk about these things. Um, but at the same time, I don't see my book as being about what you're taking away. I see my book as being about what you're going to add that's going to lift you up above these things, right? So, but I also want to have a real conversation. Like I I I I think there's a serious thing to talk about with glyphosate. So, and there and this is a multiffactorial conversation. Glyphosate, of course, is the active chemical found in Roundup. Roundup is not just glyphosate, but glyphosate is the dominant chemical. Um, and you find it everywhere. And you don't just find it everywhere. You find it in us. If you measure our urine, if you measure our stool, if you check our blood, we have it. It's already there. And it has been accepted because the argument would be, well, people don't die when they're getting exposed to this. It's like if they did then we would have to take it off the market. Okay. What if it's like a slow poisoning that does ultimately put us in this position of compromised health? And so and the thing about glyphosate is that it it blocks what's called the shikimat pathway. And so it if you give that to a weed or a plant, it kills the plant. If you give that to a human, well, we have a workaround on the shikimat pathway. Here's the issue. We have these little microscopic 38 trillion microorganisms, bacteria and yeast living inside of us. They don't have a workaround. And like what is the toxic amount to destroy a microbe? I don't think it takes much. And the data have become increasingly clear that glyphosate has negative consequences within the microbiome, that it destroys the healthy bacteria, and actually the ones that are the most tolerant or resistant to glyphosate are actually the pathogens. So you're it's effectively a formula for an inflammatory gut. And it's interesting to think about this just I just want to put this out there that um I hear these people all the time. I'm sure you have too that they say I can't eat bread in the United States but if I go to Italy I'm totally fine. >> I'm one of those people. >> Are you? >> Yeah. I would say that when I go to Europe I like have no process no problem processing wheat or bread but here I just don't do any gluten. >> Andre, have you ever made your own bread? I have not and I would love to. Well, I'm not I'm not saying that [laughter] you need to. Okay. My argument is not like I'm not so pro bread that I would take a person who doesn't want bread and force this on them, right? >> But if you make your own bread, the bread goes bad within 3 days. >> Sourdough actually lasts a little bit longer because the microbes give us some beneficial things. But like regular bread with baker's yeast is is like gonna turn moldy within just a couple days. So how is it possible for it to sit there on our shelves? Who knows how long? Is it there for 3 weeks? So and I think what's happening with the whole Europe thing, I can't argue that it's g that it's that it's gluten. I can't because they have gluten, too. And you know I acknowledge that like you you could you could um you know sort of select certain crops. >> Yeah. The wheat is crops are very different. >> Very different. Yes. Yes. And I accept that. But but the problem is if this was your immune system reacting to the protein, that's what gluten is. It's a protein. If this was your immune system reacted to the protein, the the the amount doesn't matter. Yeah. Right. Any exposure like an allergy it would trigger. So, I'm not convinced it's the gluten. I think I that's not to put gluten totally off the hook, but I think that we need to look at what is really going on here. And I think it's the glyphosate, which is being sprayed 280 million pounds per year across the states here. And in terms of the precursors for tryptophan and serotonin, um why is that an important thing to reflect on? >> Uh in terms of the glyphosate or what? Uh yeah, and how glyphosate affects the pathways that are precursor to tryptophan. >> Well, tryptophan, tryptophan is the precursor to serotonin. Right. Right. So that's that's the issue that ultimately we can get ourselves into. >> And um and so there then you sort of wonder if you're disrupting the system. We were just talking about the benefits of serotonin. Right. >> Right. and how they help us during the day and they help us with our mood and they help us with our focus and they also help us to have a morning bowel movement and then they also become melatonin which heals our gut barrier at night and and helps us to get a good restorative sleep at night and you know yeah and you're just sort of throwing that all all out of whack. So, there was a study that just came out, by the way, where they looked at a thousand different um chemicals that already exist in a combination of food or consumer goods. This just came out as like in the news and they studied them in terms of what's happening with the microbiome. And basically what they found is that out of a little over a thousand, like it was like 1,60 or something like this, 168 clearly impacted the microbiome in a negative way. And so the argument that the authors made was why are our regulatory bodies not requiring microbiome testing? >> I mean, this is what we've been saying for a long time. Talk to me about the generally recognized as safe and all the various loopholes where the chemical industrial complex is allowed to infuse our foods and food products with chemicals. We're not sure what the long-term effects are and we don't have studies that show what's happening to humans when they ingest them. Yeah, I mean I I am not going to go so far people may feel differently than me. I'm not going to go so far as to say that this is nefarious and intentional harm, but uh what it is is these are businesses. They're trying to make money and they're looking for shortcuts and opportunities to do that as much as possible. >> Follow the money. And yeah, and so uh when we came back from World War II, the world really as we know it today was so much defined by World War II and the fallout of World War II. So we came back from World War II and the US government basically said uh like within you know 10 or 15 years they said we need a way to like regulate food and and you know in theory protect our citizens. And so they said, "But the problem is like you got things like vinegar and salt and like we we don't need studies to prove that those are safe. We know those are generally recognized as safe." So they created this special law that allowed a loophole where things that are generally recognized as safe could pass through the process with very very little effort. No requirement for human study, not even a requirement to feed animals. 80% of the chemicals, and there's 10,000 of them now and climbing, 80% of them have never had a feeding study on a human or an animal. So, we're speculating that they're safe. Like, that's the extent of what we're doing here, right? Let alone, Andre, this is one of my big contentions is what about microbiome testing? And even more so than microbiome testing, we're [clears throat] going to raise our kids on these foods and expect that they can continue to eat this way for 80 years and think that that's okay. So, and the problem is that disentangling the complexity of 10,000 things where it doesn't matter what you're eating today because we would have to take into account what you ate yesterday and last year and the year before that and all the way back to your childhood and the complexity of trying to understand all that, right? So, disentangling when you're kind of exposed to all of them in varying proportions, it's impossible. This is a snippet from your book. I would love for you to read some of the ingredients into what this product is and then share what the product is cuz you mentioned how from a very young age we're fed so many things we don't know what the effects are. >> Yeah. Okay. Let's pretend for let's imagine for a moment that you're listening to the audio book. I actually read the audio book this time around. So, and I for what it's worth, I highly recommend the audio book because chapter 8 >> was Yeah, >> it was a thing. >> All right, so a horror novel in one paragraph. Eat your heart out, Stephen King. We're going to play a little game. I will list the ingredients in a commonly used product, and you will guess what it is as I read this to you line by line. Here we go. Non-fat milk, lactose, vegetable oil, including palm oline, coconut, soy, and high oleic sunflower oils, whey protein concentrate, galactosaccharides, polyextrose, mortarella, alpina oil, cryptocadinium, coni oil, calcium carbonate, potassium citrate, ferrraulfate, potassium chloride, magnesium oxide, sodium chloride, Zinc sulfate, Cupric sulfrate, maganese sulfate, potassium iodide, sodium selonite, soy lecithin, choline chloride, asorbic acid, nioinamide, calcium panto, panthotoninate, vitamin A palmitate, vitamin B12, vitamin D3 ribboflavin, thamine hydrochloride, vitamin B6 hydrochloride, folic acid, vitamin K, biotin, and acettool, vitamin E acetate, nucleotides including cytoine 5 monof phosphate, dodium urodine 5 monof phosphate, adenazine 5 monof phosphate, doodium guanazine 5 mono phosphate as well as torine lcarnitine. What is it? This is the number one selling infant formula in the United States. Need I say more? Nope. It's disturbing. It's insane. What do you make of how that has become so normalized and subsidized and a lot of these foods that since from a young age like can't effectively pronounce half of the list? Um, yeah. I'm just curious what you make of what do you make of all that? I mean, I think it's super disturbing. I I was born in 1980 and I grew up on this kind of stuff and I don't blame my parents because they just didn't know, right? And like picture a world where you have a kid who is rejecting a lot of what you offer them in terms of food and they're difficult and challenging and you have the ability to give them something that they will love. They will love you for it. They'll be so grateful that you provided it to them. It's not expensive. It can store for a very long time. Um, and even for yourself, it tastes great and you enjoy it, right? It sounds like a winning formula. I mean, it really does until you get into the trade-offs. And so, the problem is like we didn't know those trade-offs in the very beginning. But here we are and we're looking back and there is a pattern where these ultrarocessed foods which I discussed this in the book that when I wrote fiberfueled in 2020 there were almost no books I'm sorry almost no studies about the harm of ultrarocessed foods. That's wild. How can you be an academic and not ask this question? There's entire nutrition science departments and none of them none of them across the globe were taking on the question of are ultrarocessed foods healthy or unhealthy. And so I wrote about what was available back then in 2020 and now fast forward here we are and it's you know uh like six years later and um there's actually dozens of studies and in fact there was a sort of a scoping review with a meta analysis where they took a look at all the available data on I believe it was 45 different health conditions and what they discovered was if I recall correctly and I I may be slightly off on this but it's going to be real darn close. I believe there were 36 different studies, 36 different health conditions out of 45 where consuming ultrarocessed foods increased the risk and that was statistically significant. But if you actually looked at the signal, meaning there are some things that don't yet reach statistical significance because you just don't have enough people in a study yet, but there's a trend. And if you looked at the trend, 42 out of 45 indicated that ultrarocessed foods increase the risk of the disease. Going to read a short snippet also from your book. Our modern choices have led us down a road of convenient labal altered mass-produced foods and a chronically stressful lifestyle. The result is a toxic disconnect between our biology and our environment. One that weakens our gut microbes 100%. >> And we could spend 3 hours going through the list, right? Um there's from the microplastics and nanoplastics to what's been normalized in regards to alcohol and sugar to the food dyes and and the food ingredients that we can't even pronounce because it can become overwhelming. Where do you think is the most effective place to start to start to guard what's coming in? That way we don't have to try to heal what could be prevented. >> So I would argue that if we got back to eating off like it's actually quite simple. >> Great. Um, yeah. Well, in the in the sense that if you if you ate real food, you're in a good spot. And, you know, there's uh there is an a strong argument for organic for sure. But if you buy organic, you still absolutely should wash all of your fruits, vegetables, etc. Um, but I would also argue that even if you can't buy organic, you're still better off eating those whole plant-based foods because all these studies that we have, Andre, that show us the benefits of eating those particular foods ultimately show us that people are healthier and those aren't just organic plant-based foods. So, so generally speaking, I think, and this is not I'm not trying actually to argue all or nothing. I'm not arguing for a 100% plant-based diet. What I'm arguing is that we have things that are missing. Fiber, polyphenols, healthy fats, fermented foods, we're missing those things. And if you take the things that you're missing, if your body needs them, I think there's such an overwhelming argument that our body does, our microbes do for sure, and you restore those things. That's how you get healthy. >> So, so to me it's really about eating real food. There's many variants on what constitutes a healthful diet. Um, but if you take those four things, which in the book I characterize, I describe them as the four workh horses of of nutrition because they go to work for your health to make you healthier. Fiber, polyphenols, healthy fats, and fermented food. If you if you if you build any diet and it's made up of those things, you're going to be in the right place. So, two quick notes before we go to the four workh horses. And we can, you know, I love the simplicity of eating real food. Um, and also the reality is there are there's a list of other guard rails that from the filtration of water to being mindful of. Uh, one thing I'm curious your perspective on is the compounded negative effects on specifically factory- farmed animal products because of the various chemicals that are in the crops they're eating, not alone. Not not to mention the pharmaceutical um cacophony that they're fed, you know. So, what uh is there anything you want to mention there? >> Yeah, I do. I mean, I So, uh, first of all, like I am a medical doctor. my my goal and I I think that if you follow my work, you will find that I'm 100% real about what my uh intentions are. My goal is to make people healthy. And I think there's many different paths to get there. So, I don't come to make ethical arguments, but I also think that there is clearly an ethical argument when it comes to these concentrated feeding lots with these animals and what they're doing to them in there. And this does impact your health because if you if you take highly unhealthy animals, you talk about being disconnected from our from our nature and the way that we're intended to be, taking a cow off the pasture and putting it into a tight little space with like hundreds or thousands of other livestock, right? and then feeding it an unnatural diet that it would never actually eat that way if it were allowed to freely roam in nature. >> Just heard a hawk screech twice when you I don't know if you heard that in the background. That was pretty cool. >> No, [laughter] it agrees. The hawk is agree with me. Right. That's a that's a that's a side right there. >> Um so, but like you that's a setup for unhealthy animals. Yeah. >> Right. And if you are if all you care about is pounds of meat and there's nothing in between that if the quality doesn't matter at all and you just want to produce pounds of meat. Actually unhealthy animals much like unhealthy humans they gain weight faster. So you could give that animal antibiotics and by destroying the gut microbiome you could you could feed that animal the same number of calories and actually have a more obese, fattier animal that you're then going to serve to someone. And guess what? The antibiotics residues are found in the meat and and is contributing to antibiotic resistance. So, you know, one of the things that I mentioned several times and I've said it here and I'll say it one more time that if if what we're eating is unhealthy, how can we ever be healthy? And I really think that that sort of that system uh exemplifies that. So, I personally don't eat meat. All right? And there's ethical reasons for why I choose in our family, we choose not to do that. I'm not trying to convince people of that specifically. I think I overtly say you can eat meat and be healthy, but that's a bunch of trash for sure. >> The factory farm stuff. Yeah, >> the factory farm stuff. >> For sure. >> Yeah. Um, I uh I appreciate the openness to like the diversity that works for various different people and not being so dogmatic about labels and whatnot. Um, and just recommending more of what really works for people. Um, I'm I eat in a similar way to you, like whole plant-based foods. It just feels great in my system and haven't been taking animal products for about a decade now. Um and you know it I feel like I I feel healthy. I feel sharp. I feel great. Um and I know that people are at different points in their life in different points in their journey with different amounts of access. And some people for different parts of their life like feel say they feel really good on on animal products or they feel you know um for various reasons they don't feel great on a plant-based diet. And of course there's so many different factors to one could try to track to different causes. But um yeah, I I like how you keep coming back to something that's additive and making this feel like you're moving towards a more abundant life with the choices you're making instead of more restrictive. Yeah, 100%. Well, first of all, the data on restrictive diets, every single one of them, even even ones that I might say are pretty healthy, they always impact your microbiome. Anytime you restrict, you are taking away nutrients from specific families of microbes that are that are looking for that. And when they don't get it, they're going to die off. So, um, but yeah, I think like to me the word that you said that's the most important word from my perspective is journey. And we're on a journey and there's diff there's different aspects of our life that mature at different paces. So, for example, I happened to like really change my diet roughly around 2012, 2013. It completely transformed my life. Um, prior to that, I had the most junk food diet out there, like the worst, right? Um, that being said, like I have different aspects of my life that the maturation process has been slower. So like for example, coming into my own spirituality and having a stronger relationship with God is something that's happened a lot more recently for me. And so so is there a cause of that? >> Um if I had to summarize number one having kids and uh there's so a few things there I think that like um sorry if I derailed you where you were going but I just had to ask. No, it's a great question. So, there's so much that we can explain with science. There's so much more that we don't know. And the things that we don't know, you're going to have to believe in something. And I'm not saying you have to believe there's a higher power, but when your when your first child is born, right? All right. So, my oldest is 11 and you hold this child. There's some really dramatic things that happen in that moment. Number one, there's a love that you feel that I can't explain cuz I don't think that's just evolution. How could holding a child for the first time give you that sense of love when that child will not be big enough to protect you or help you for many years? Um, it's pure. It's like the most powerful beautiful thing. And your entire intent and purpose why you're here changes instantly. And you didn't you may not have known it was coming and then it hits you. you're there for them. And you know, science can explain, as I said, a lot. But when you hold that child, you know that from some place that I don't know where it is, there was a breath of life that came into this person. And they they have a soul in the same way that you and I do. And that's that's that's not just neurotransmitters, right? like there's a bigger story there and and it's like to me perhaps the most powerful proof of something bigger and greater. And I think like you could expand that conversation, go a lot of different directions with the book. I I stayed very um I don't want to say like agnostic. It's not agnostic. I'm I'm I'm recommending and encouraging people to open their heart to something bigger as I sit here. There's many different ways to express that. Uh you know, you think about every culture in human history and they like could have easily just been like, well, look at the world. This is this is this is who we are. This is how we live. But they all ended up in the same conclusion. there. They looked to the sky. They pointed up and they said, "There's something there." And you know, in within Buddhism tradition, it's not the same as it might be within a Judeo-Christian tradition, but I actually think they kind of are in some ways. And uh that to me is like quite interesting and powerful. M >> so so anyway I guess the point from my perspective is that the uh the birth of my daughter has helped me on this journey and as I've as as time has passed it's something that I've actually really wanted for myself and I don't just do it for my kids I'm doing this for myself which by the way is actually what I think like you're allowed to selfishly want a relationship with a higher power >> and That's that's that's just for you. That's private. And it can be really special. And for me it has helped me uh for example in dealing with the death of my father to to not see his death as the end but instead to see his death as he's actually in a wonderful place and there will be a day where I will be with him and we'll continue and the things that I didn't get to say to him while while we're here on this planet. I know that I'll be able to say to him one day when we pick back up. It's very clear to me that there are two fundamental forces driving the vast majority of humans on the planet. One is they are being driven by something they feel absolutely called to. And the other is they're being dragged by previous conditioning, societal familial norms. And to me, it feels very clear with the work that you do um that you're answering what you feel called to in life. You're driven by love as opposed to fear. I I can sense your your passion and love for how the information and the the work that you share is going to create a better world for your kids to live in one day. that is genuinely helping people that feel sick or all the various mental, you know, issues that are stemmed in the mental health pandemic um that are rooted in physiological causes and um the yeah, I'm just I really appreciate the way that you speak to all of these things so holistically. Um so yeah, man, I I just really appreciate the the passion and love I feel that you that you carry with your work. >> Well, first of all, I'm deeply honored that you said that. Um, you know, if if my orientation is to trying to help people get healthy, then there can't be any boundaries or restrictions on that. I have to be happy and willing to go wherever I think it takes. And I also think that we're all a bit silly when we make it sound like nutrition is the only thing that matters because there is so much more that matters. So I'm I'm quite proud of the fact that in this book um through my maturation as a as an author I can actually turn to these uh you know more complex topics and open up a conversation because as we said in the very beginning healing comes in many forms and for that individual person you just need to find what is the thing that you should be focusing on in your life and for me part of it was changing my diet. What I didn't really talk about until this book is actually there was a lot more going on there and that's what I needed. >> And you've referred to how humans are the microbes of the earth, you know, like to zoom out a bit and you see how we have our own microbial journey and environment that we get to protect and kind of steward. uh you zoom out and see humans as sort of the microbes of this growing planet, you know, and uh it's cool to see what happens when people truly discover their own purpose and dharma and how they contribute and take that responsibility as sort of a privilege to be able to show up in the way that you can uniquely support the planet in. And uh you know right now we see staggering statistics around mental health and suicide and chronic disease and you could say that the microbial condition of the earth so to speak is in a pretty sad place. Um, but uh but I'm curious to hear into your your optimism for what happens when we start to collectively when we start to individually sort of wake up to our own calling in the way that you feel like you have and the way that I feel like I'm I'm I'm doing it about in the show and my work. Um, any thoughts you have there on how humans are the microbes of the earth and the responsibility we carry? >> Yeah. Well, I first of all, I think that there's a lot that that's there in terms of the parallelisms between humans and microbes. And it's like a micro macro conversation. And if you were, as you said, zoom out. If you're up on that airplane, you look down, you can't see people there. You trust that they're down there functioning, doing their job, doing the things that happen on a day-to-day basis. That's exactly the way it is with our microbiome. You don't you can't see them unless you had a microscope, but you can trust that they're down there doing their job. And I think that when you live a So there are questions that I think all of us at some point in our lives we come to. I don't think this is like when you're a kid and I also don't think it's probably when you're in your 20s. But as you move along, you start to ask like who am I? Why? Why am I here? What is my purpose? What does it all mean? When I'm gone, what will that mean? And and these are sort of existential questions that need to be resolved. And I do think that like ways in which we um answer those questions and feel satisfied. Part of it is actually satisfying our need for human connection. Part of it is that as we've been alluding to, there is I I believe a you know um there's a spot in our heart that is yearning for spiritual connection and I think part of this is living life with intention and purpose and that it involves knowing who you are and when you spend your time on those things then you are in alignment. And a crisis occurs whether it's conscious or non-concious. A crisis occurs when your effort is being given to something that's misaligned. And we see this because um like in medicine right now, Andre, burnout rates are off the charts. And I want people to hear and understand when I talk about burnout, I view this as this is a serious life-changing health condition in a bad way. >> Mhm. >> And it is not, hey, go take a break. It is not go sleep it off, right? it. There's no amount of vacation time that will address that because what's happening is that doctors are having an existential crisis where they signed up to be a caregiver to have relationships with patients to provide to them and they're getting sucked and pulled and stretched in directions that are actually forcing them to compromise on that and that's why they're having a crisis cuz you can hate our healthare system. You can hate it. I totally get it. You know what? I've had to deal with the healthare system and I hate it, too. But I'm of the belief that the vast majority of people who made the choice of all the things that they could have done, right? Like you're if you're premed and you're getting into an US medical school, you could have been a banker for sure >> or an attorney or whatever the heck you want. And of all of those choices, they made a choice to basically go and enter into a hospital for like 12 years straight, sacrifice that period of time in their life so that they could come out on the other side and provide care to others because they care, because they want to, because there's compassion in their heart. And so, and I, you know, doctors become cynical, things can change. But we all started with that intention. And I think when you undermine that intention, you put people into a crisis. >> There is this yeah, there's a bit of this paradox where like people that have this genuine intention, for example, within the health care system to do well are born into a system that many ways limits them in being able to do so effectively. And [snorts] I think that a lot of us can relate in our own careers and the way that we show up in the world that for various parts of our life and and largely like we're in sort of a culture and a system that we're here to reinvent because it's not working to optimal capacity. It's not working in a way that allows us to really show up in the way that we want to. And so sometimes I think it's like, yeah, I feel like we're we're born into a world that we sometimes don't feel like we fit in with, but also that's like the reminder we're here to help create a new one. Yeah, that's so true. And I I you know, part of the message in the book from my perspective is like look uh do do I pray for like systemic change? Absolutely. I I desperately want that. But unfortunately, like we're we're basically staring at the clock right now. Like it's not happening, right? Um at least it's not happening the way that I was hoping that it would at the speed and scale it needs to. Yeah. Yeah. There's things there's stories that exist, you know, that why is the US government interested in protecting a chemical company, right? like that makes no sense other than unfortunately there's financial interests that have strong influence more so than our votes. And so so the point from my perspective is that of course I want these things to change. Of course I want the environment to change, the food system to change. I want all these things, the health the health care system to be better and more accessible. But at the same time, I also know that there's only certain things that I have control over directly. I control my own body. I have control over many different facets of my home and how we organize those things. And I have at least on some level control over time, right? Perhaps not as much as I would like, but on some level. And within those things that I have control over, it's important that we create an environment that is a healing environment because that's what propels your health for years to come. And I think that's like sort of part of the central message is that if you look at sort of the way that the book plays out and the arc of the story, you know, we're going to move through, yes, we're going to talk about like environmental toxicity and these things and yes, we're going to talk about what the solutions are and there's like an complete breakdown uh an explanation for all that, right? But ultimately what you come to is the is the protocol that says here are the tools. They're all evidence-based. We're putting them on the table and you get to choose. And if you take one of those tools, or more than one, and you apply it to your life and you feel the difference. Number one, you've proven that it works. Number two, you should keep doing that. And then you can look to other things that you can add. And that to me is the opportunity that we have is that if if you do something that's going to have a meaningful impact on your health, I fully expect you it's not going to be a secret. You're you're not going to be sitting there wondering what's going on. You're going to know. You're going to feel the difference. It's uh it's an empowering perspective. One that I think I try to as much I as I can with the show and and you with yours is we have all these desires for people that are listening probably for the changes we want to see in the world. And then like the realization is okay by tending to our own garden and taking responsibility for our own life. We become vessels. We become conscious agents of change more powerfully. Um and it's just that that quote of like when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change then you'll change. Unfortunately, there is a lot of pain and suffering that many of us have to face to realize that we need to change our lifestyle. We need to change our environment. Um, and I have so much compassion and empathy as I know you do for how difficult that can feel at different times for people. Um, but that's the way out. That's the way through. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. And some of those and some of those things are completely free. >> Yep. >> Totally accessible. And it's just quite simply a matter of like brainstorming, problem solving through within your own life. How do you apply the tool to make it work and make it possible? >> Mhm. Yeah. And it can I I agree it can feel very overwhelming with the amount of information and things we feel like we should do. We end up all over our ourselves. Um, and the reality is like one small thing every single day, whe whether it's listening to a podcast, reading a book, um, making one small habit or lifestyle change compounds over time in a drastic way. Um, so yeah, I'd just love to wrap up by congratulating you on your new book. Thank you for coming back on the show and having an awesome conversation. I thoroughly really loved it and I love that it was very alive. And you know, there is a lot of information that we still could have covered that's both in your book and through your work from the four workh horses um and helping people tighten up their diet and lifestyle and things that they can add like fermented foods and uh the polyphenols and a lot of those things that you mentioned earlier. Uh and we covered a bit of that in our last conversation and I love the avenues that we did explore in this conversation. And so if people want to have a bit just to leave people on a bit of a kind of practical notion, you have some protocols, you have some very like grounded advice to build the foundation for a healthy system that people can dive more into your book which we'll link down in the description below. But is there anything else you want to like hint at in in terms of those uh simple protocols and changes that can be really effective? >> Building morning routine in 1 hour. in one hour if you build it properly you could completely change your life. So and to me the uh most powerful lever this is this is tapping into your circadian rhythm. There's an entire chapter like describing and breaking down circadian rhythm, which includes timerestricted eating and meal timings and sleep and all these things are important, but if I could just do one thing, it's to build that powerful morning routine where you get outside, you get exposure to morning sunlight, you get a a touch of light exercise, not CrossFit style. You could do that if you want to. That's not a bad thing, but you also don't have to make it CrossFit style. It could be just a touch of light exercise. Morning light exposure increases cortisol by 50%. That is reinforcing your circadian rhythm. You will feel the difference on day one. More energy, better mental clarity, better focus and stamina, and you will sleep like a baby as we've discussed during the show 14 hours later. So, get that morning sunlight, build that morning routine. And I also uh want to advocate for like within that morning routine putting in some quiet time cuz like we talked during our uh conversation today about sympathetic versus parasympathetic. And so that quiet time is how we create some time to rest and digest. >> I love that man. Those I've personally found that those things that you mentioned have been like some of the most effective in my own personal journey. like protecting my mornings and protecting my nights like setting a bedtime so that I can actually wake up and get morning light and like the the the morning starts the night before which starts the morning and the night before and so it's like building building that healthy cascade or domino effect right 100%. And like to me, I uh have found this to be so helpful myself that like it's become a non-negotiable. >> Yeah. >> So if it's if it's if it if it proves to be I would I wouldn't have known to make it a non-negotiable 5 years ago when I wasn't doing this. >> The fact that I am doing this and it has helped me so much. You reach a point you're like I just got to rearrange and figure out how to make it possible. Yeah. Amazing man. Thank you so much. I like I said, this conversation was super nourishing and I feel like our community is going to really resonate with it. Is there any last words you have where people can stay connected with you? Anything with the context of this conversation you want to uh end off on? >> I mean, there's there's so much that we could dig into. I actually really love the the things that we covered and those were great questions that you asked. So, I want to thank you for having me back on the show. Um, for people who have enjoyed this conversation, number one, check out the first episode that we did together. I think that you'll enjoy that. Number two, my brand new book, Plantpowered Plus, is out. And if you enjoyed the conversation, I'm sure you would love the book. And last but not least, my home base is the gutalthmd.com. So if you come to that place, you're going to find out all the different stuff that I'm involved with, the different opportunities that you have that are like, for example, completely free, such as my email newsletter. So I would encourage people go there, check it out, sign up for the newsletter, and uh and I hope to continue this uh relationship. >> Yeah. Likewise, man. Thank you so much. And everybody, I appreciate you for coming in and tuning in and taking time out of your day to immerse yourself in information and conversations that are supporting you and therefore the world that you live in. I appreciate you and until next time, [music] be well. >> [music]

In this episode, Will Bulsiewicz walks us through unseen forces shaping our health, energy, and emotional lives. From the chemicals in our food system to the hidden drivers of inflammation and burnout, we dive into why so many people today feel exhausted, misaligned, and disconnected from their true well-being. We examine how modern culture normalizes habits and environments that work against our biology, and why healing requires more than symptom management — it demands addressing the root causes, rebuilding alignment, and taking ownership of what we allow into our bodies and minds. 20% off Pique Life Tea (FREE glass beaker and frother!): https://www.piquelife.com/knowthyself Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 00:00 Intro: Will Bulsiewicz 02:34 How much of our mood is controlled by our gut? 09:40 Two diseases: individualism and materialism 23:30 The intelligence that lives in our gut 35:31 Ad: Pique Life 36:46 What is immune intelligence? 48:01 Detoxing from environmental toxins 54:54 Why are chemical companies allowed to poison us? 57:39 A short horror story 1:02:45 Looking out for what to avoid 1:05:27 The effects of factory farming on our bodies 1:17:36 Humans are the microbes of the Earth 1:26:23 Conclusion: Changing the world ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.amazon.com/Plant-Powered-Plus-Activate-Inflammation/dp/0593418794 https://www.instagram.com/theguthealthmd/ https://theguthealthmd.com/ https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com Listen to the show: Spotify: https://spoti.fi/4bZMq9l Apple: https://apple.co/4iATICX