“Human TERMINATOR!” - Harvard Neuroscientist on Psychopaths, Love, Telepathy & The Halo Effect | 400

And there were so many things you were talking about in the last episode where I'm like I could ask him like 40 things there. All right, we just got to pick one and roll with it. So, there's some stuff I want to dig into deeper that we just kind of touched the surface of and then other things I want to get to entirely >> new topics. But yeah, I I also know like you know Jordan Peterson, you've been on his show before, have a little bit of a relationship with him. He obviously is like they publicly announced he's he's not doing too well right now. Have you heard any >> any updates on that on his health? >> I haven't. So what I know is from what's known publicly about his health, unfortunately. You know, he he went through some some health battles as as is known. Um, but yeah, I I uh send him my greetings. Um, you know, well wishes through his wife Tammy and and uh but yeah, I'm not sure exactly what's what's happening there, you know. Hope >> Yeah. Never like to see that. I hope >> Yeah. Hope he recovers soon. Yeah, definitely. For sure. >> So, this course you did on love. Yeah, >> we talked about it at the very end last time for the last 13 14 minutes of that podcast, which I'm not sure when this one's coming out yet. >> We'll figure that out. But, >> you know, we got into some of the >> pop culture with, you know, breaking down the Titanic and Jack played by Leo and how he kind of like courted Rose. So, there some of that I think we could probably rehash just cuz a lot of people >> want to know >> didn't hear the last episode and that was also at the very end. So, they may not have gotten there. But you mentioned the different things you were teaching across the lectures for love and you mentioned like sexual energy, transcendent love, parents love. So maybe we could just go one by one here >> and break down how Bangal put together each idea to explain it scientifically how love works. Well, it's uh I have to go back and retrieve some of those files because it's been it's been a week, you know, and and I've done so much in that week after in terms of of of just lecturing and and talking about different things. So, but I so I definitely have to think. So, what did I talk about? So, romantic love, there are different stages of romantic love. There's obviously what's called infatuation >> and and and you might call the initial. So when you see a woman for the first time you see a woman she walks by you she's very attractive she comes towards you and you just find her attractive right that's testosterone driven it's it's very much in dopamine vententral stray of the brain the vententral straight is this portion of the brain important for dopamine creating dopamine as we know dopamine is this reward chemical in the brain makes you agitated makes you sort of your heart is beating boom boom boom all that so that's initial state okay very testosterone and dopamine driven second what might happen then is romantic love kicks in. You might, you know, you build a relationship with that girl. There's something going on that's a little bit deeper. Now you you start to get to know her and all that. And that is a different different circuits in the brain. Now you're dealing with circuits like if it kind of expands a little bit and get and it gets a bit deeper, you have things like serotonin dropping in the brain. This is this is actually counterintuitive because serotonin is this feel-good hormone. Now when you have serotonin in the in the system, you kind of feel relaxed. You feel kind of, you know, calm. You feel good. You're very sort of inner driven. So you you feel inner driven. You kind of you kind of have calmness in you. Now when it goes down, you become more obsessive. In fact, in fact, in monkeys, if you if you if you that circuit in the brain going from the medial prefrontal cortex, the mid prefrontal cortex to the basil ganglia and other regions of the brain involved in sort of obsessive thinking. If you if you if you cut serotonin in that circuit, you become highly obsessive. >> So serotonin is is very very important for reducing obsessions. But obviously when you fall in love, you have a lot of obsessions. So serotonin goes out the window. In fact, the prefrontal cortex, the very front of your brain, the logical reasoning, you know, um, planning part of the brain shuts down. >> So, you have that. >> Second. Second, you have a part of the brain called the TPJ, the temporal parietal junction. We talked about that last time. That is a region up here in this part of the brain. It's involved, it's involved in creating a sense of a body image. So, me baland, I feel like I occupy this body. I don't feel like I occupy, you know, Julian's body or Brad Pitt's body, unfortunately. Okay. I occupy occupied this body, right? Glad you like my jokes. I these jokes sometimes a misfire during lectures. >> No, you're good. You're good. You got a bad audience if they're misfiring. Brad Pit was looking good in F1. I got to say that [ __ ] is like 65 or something. He was He was doing all right. He's pretty cool. He's pretty cool. >> Hey guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe. It's a huge huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link in my description or in the pin comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below. So, the TPJ creates a sense of a body image, it's up here. And it works by pulling sensory information from various senses, seeing, touch, taste, tactile sensations and then draws that information and builds a sense of a self. >> So this is very a very key structure to know. It's important in just creating you by pulling information from the world. So you have the TPJ. Now the TPJ when you are in a romantic situation, it actually shuts down. >> Yeah. >> And so there's a sense of unison with the lover. you feel like you're becoming one with her. You know, it's very important. It's actually very critical and and and key piece of it. >> And that doesn't happen at all during the infatuation phase. That's when it gets to the romantic phase. >> This isn't the romantic phase. In the initial in the initial stages in in the pure obs in the pure passionate infatuation stage, it's much more it's much more it's much more passionate driven. It's much more sexual. You know what I mean? It doesn't have that >> the these neural circuits are not active in the same manner as we see now. It's clearly different when you actually have that romantic stage. >> Is there something specific like a line in the sand if you will that happens or that needs to happen to cross officially from the infatuation stage to the romantic stage? >> It's a good question. I think what it is is reciprocity. So once you get okay so you see the girl she's she's she's good-looking she's pretty and you have the initial drive okay then there's some reciprocity maybe you get to know her a little bit there's some continuity in time so you get to see her a few times that can lead to the more sort of romantic stage now the preffrontal kicks in now the prefrontal is is important because the preffrontal I said it shuts down but there's also a prefrontal element in romantic love. Let me explain. So when you first see the girl in the infatuation stage, there's also another structure called the insula. It's up uh it's in behind the ears. It's very important actually. This is the region of the brain that maps all your sensory states. So so your your breathing, your heart rate, your all that is is mapped onto the insula. Okay? So it maps all that. And so any given moment I'm sort of looking at Joey. I'm I'm looking around in the studio. My insula is kind of mapping all that and saying how is my stomach right now? How's my heart? How does how does the external world map onto my internal world? That's the insula doing that. And then based on that, it sends signals back to my prefrontal conceptual part of the brain. And then it helps me build a narrative around the world if that makes sense. Now when I see a girl for the first time, obviously there's a lot of insula going on. My heart is beating. Boom boom boom. My my I'm sweating a little bit. I could measure that if I wanted to using sort of galvanic skin response, skin conductance. >> Galbanic. >> Yeah, it's called galvanic skin response. So you can measure sweating on on the on the on the body when you're it's it's a micro sweating, you know, you can't really So you have that. So there's a clearly a physiological reaction. So you have the insula, very active. You have a part of the brain I didn't mention before. It's called the hypothalamus. >> Hypothalamus. Did I talk did we talk about the hypothalamus? >> I think we touched it, but it was in another context. >> It's another context. It's a one of the most fascinating part of the brains in the brain. It it's fascinating because the hypothalamus is this this marble-l like structure and it's kind of deeper in the brain but what it does is it has tons of functions and it is very small but it had tons of functions. For example, for example, when I have when I feel aggressive, okay, when I have aggression in me, okay, and I feel aggressive, guess what happens? the hypothalamus is all active and it sends commands to something called the pituitary and it and it then releases hormones. So cortisol, adrenaline is then released eventually from the adrenal glands behind you here, your behind your kidneys, above your kidneys. That's the hypothalamus. But it's also involved in sex drive. Curiously, the same part of the brain is involved in sexual motivation and aggression. Which begs the question like why are some men motivated sexually by aggressive scenarios? Like why do you have male dominance in prison, you know, in prison scenarios and and and males wanting to dominate others and the sexual component of that or even rape scenarios or men just being turned on by highly violent scenarios. Well, it turns out the same part of the brain that mediates that processes aggression and processes sexuality is the same. It's the same literally the same structure. >> That makes a lot of sense. And it, like you said, it can that can be very dark if you do the wrong way. >> It can be very Yeah, absolutely. >> In other ways though, creates odd social situations. That's why it's just as tail as old as time. Like whenever there's a woman involved, [ __ ] gets weird right in the middle. And I I kind of liken it sometimes to >> like when you see dogs with a with with a with a fire hydrant. Yep. >> You know what I mean? Yeah. Like when two tough looking dogs could be walking up towards the hydrant and one of them pisses on at first and the other like can never come back to that hydrant. You know what I mean? It's a very strange thing like this competitive thing that happens like ah you lose out once you get your balls cut off in a way is the other dog got it right. >> Sorry to talk about it this way but this is how it is. And then doesn't matter like you go away you come back you strike doesn't matter. you're kind of like, ah, >> can't ever go on that street again. You know, it's a strange strange thing. I think it kind of comes from that same >> same thing. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's it's interesting with the with the insula and how it works and how aggression and sexuality, but but it definitely can explain a lot of things. In fact, the insula is also the disgust part of the brain. So, when I feel disgusted, you know, let's say you're touching some vomit over there and I watch you, I feel disgusted, for example. So, there's a disgust component and that's the insula. It lights up like Time Square when whenever I'm disgusted. But it turns out it turns out that the insula is also activated when I experience social disgust. So for example, if you tell me that these people over there are barbarians, these people are evil, they want to occupy our land, they are just bad, the insula part of the brain also lights up. >> So it turns out the same part of the brain lights up when I'm socially disgusted and when I'm actually disgusted. And that brings us to a key point of sort of how we dehumanize other people and how >> yes >> wars are generated in the world. Well, it turns out if the same part of the brain turns up, you know, is activated with social like with actual disgust and social disgust, you can see how you become disgusted, literally disgusted by by another group of people, by somebody you think is is evil and and and has bad intentions. So the brain is kind of sloppy in in ways. It kind of reuses circuits all the time and and the more brain brain part like regions in the brain the more prox closer the proximity the more the cross activation and sort of and and misfiring so to speak. So basic that is a principle in the brain that's a principle so the there's often the sloppy wiring and yeah as I said the closer the the better and and or sorry the more c potential for cross activation. One of the most famous mushrooms in history isn't psychedelic, but it does something really interesting to the brain. The mushroom I'm referring to is called ammonita muscaria. The red one with the white spots that you've seen in Alice in Wonderland and other folklore forever. It's not psilocybin. It's not a traditional psychedelic. Although at higher doses, it can be extremely psychoactive and dissociative in its own way. For me though, it's way more grounding. I like lower doses. It puts me in a calm headsp space and personally certainly helps me with sleep. Some people even refer to it as nature's wine. This might not be a perfect analogy, but it's pretty close at the same time. For me, if I take a blue lotus extract capsule, I find that I get deeper relaxation, reduced anxiety, and even more vivid dreams when I fall asleep. It's almost like your body taking like a deep breath and exhaling right out. And the reason I even felt comfortable trying this is because of Amitara, the company that supplies the best Amanid Muscaria around. Obviously, this space is filled with a lot of sketchy companies that are making knockoff products that aren't real. And Amara is the solution to that problem because they are the total opposite. They've served over 50,000 customers and their sourcing is clean, lab tested, and transparent. No synthetic analoges, no mystery blends, no weird research chemicals. They also have the largest selection of Amanita products I've seen. Gummies, capsules, extracts, chocolate bars, Amanita body oil, and their website is loaded with educational guides so that you're not just guessing. If you want to join me and check out Amitara today, you can go to www.antara.com. amara.com/go/julian. That link is in my description below. Once again, that's www.antara.com/go/julen using code JD22 for 22% off your order today. Check it out. Link in description below. Are there ways to, I don't know, control these types of things and try to stop them from happening? Like if you if I know, for example, I'm going to [ __ ] up some of the names of the different regions of the brain. you just gave like 10 of them. But if I know that one reason region of the brain is is literally evolutionary wired to make me do X and I know that ahead of time, is there a way for me to like I don't know like try to like program my brain to avoid that and actually be able to avoid the release of the hormones associated with whatever X feeling is. It's hard. But but I think the knowledge of the fact that your brain repurposes itself all the time can be helpful. >> So just knowing that for example you you have a wife and then you call her by your ex by the ex-wife's name. >> Oh that's a no no. >> That is that is a no no right. But that is an example of how the brain sort of can reuse the same circuitry. Literally the the circuitry that I have for my mother as a child and we could go into that is the same circuitry I will use for romantic partner 20 years later. Sigman Freudian stuff going on. >> No, no, this is attachment theory. It's pretty well known. So this is a this is a very robust finding. So we know that our attachments with our mothers and with our with our you know our our caregivers that will translate into how we bond with with with future romantic partners. So this is well known. But on the repurposing and and the cross activation part, there's another really curious observation. So on the in the brain, right? So in the by the way if I'm going too heavy with the technical terms >> great bro relax relax you're good keep going good so here there's a strip called the sensory map this is a post central gyus for the nerds out there post central gyus it's a sensory map of the entire body >> so just like we have a map for our neurological sense of being anchored in this body we also have an actual sensory map for our body so if I was to hit my leg like this and slap it. Literally, there's a leg portion and there's a thigh portion in my brain on my map here, there's like actually a there's a drawing almost or literally there is a drawing of an actual human body on my sensory map. >> So if I on the on vice versa, if I go up here and I stimulate that part of the brain, I would literally feel sensations in my leg. So I can go that way too. >> So I touch it, it lights up, I stimulate it, I feel it in the leg. Okay. Now, so it's kind of drawn like a human being, but it's kind of disproportional to the actual human size. In other words, you'll find a big tongue and the tongue is huge, humongous, gigantic. You'll find lips are huge. Okay? Feet are huge. >> Hands, especially the fingers are huge. Then Julian might ask, how come? Why do you have certain parts of the sensory map being larger than others? What do you think? Take a guess. >> My only guess is that it's tied to like the things >> you look for in evolution. And here's what I mean by that. >> Yeah. >> Like if you look at monkeys when they have to attack. >> Yeah. >> They go for the face and the hands. So the hands can't fight back and the face, you know, gets blinded and whatever. And it's because like that's at the >> top of their thought process of what can disable the enemy. Yes. And so I think my guess very uneducated but my guess would be that it has something to do with there are things that we subconsciously pay attention to more on people than other things and we make that maybe larger than life. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's very close. These are the parts that are more sensory rich. >> That doesn't sound like I was that close. >> No, no. You're saying these these parts are most important. That's what you're saying, right? We use them. They're most important because they're rich in sensory receptors. Think about it. Your lips, right? extremely sensitive your tongue, you know, if you if I take a needle and prick Julian's tongue, lots of pain, right? Very sensitive. Versus, you know, if I if I if I prick your stomach, not very sensitive. So, because there's so many so many neurons devoted for your tongue, that part of the of the brain is is the map is just the tongue is just huge. >> In fact, even your genital genitalia is huge up there. >> It's very sensory. >> It's huge in all of our minds. Now, now here's the punch line of all all this. Okay, the punch line is the following. You will find in that map, even though it's kind of drawn as a human being, the feet are extremely close to the genitalia in that map. And then you might ask, why this? Why this disfigurement? What's going on here? Why would you have the feet being close to the genitalia? Right? big foot, big you know and the answer seems to be that have you ever somebody ever told you like my one of my Ramachandran we talked about Ramachandra last time he told me yes my mentor who he told me >> you never want to have >> another man give your wife a foot massage >> specifically a foot massage is is is is really bad now I obviously wouldn't I wouldn't go for any massage okay But but I'm saying you you foot massage you would definitely not go for. >> It seems like because of the potential cross activation between feet and genitalia because they are so linked in the brain in that map that explains why you can actually elicit sensual and erotic emotions by massaging the feet if that makes sense. >> Is that why like people are so into that? That's like one of the biggest online. >> I think so. I think so. I said definitely cross activation is in the brain is is a major principle and these these two regions of the brain aren't just neighbors they are literally like next door to each other and so you would expect some cross activation when you touch the other you might feel it in the other part >> you're talk you're talking when you say we're looking at the most sensory areas in my head I'm getting a little biased towards like touch and feel >> yes >> but obviously the senses are far beyond that And >> the most important sense maybe that we have, I don't know if that's correct, but >> is vision and seeing other people because >> my head immediately goes to the first thing I notice and someone is the thing I'm most drawn to is their eyes. Particularly with women, if I don't like you be the hottest girl of all time. If if if I don't have that connection with your eyes, it's never going to happen. >> There's something with the eyes. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. The v vision is is important and it is the most important sensory u you know organ that we have this you know sensory region I mean there's 30 regions in the brain for vision alone I think in the cortex you have about >> so the brain is 100 billion neurons and 30 bill 30 billion in is in the cortex >> that's the outer layer had six part as we talked about last last time and in that sensory region I think about onethird of that whole region is devoted to vision alone it's the it's the sense most important for for survival. So yes, absolutely it is definitely crucial. But yeah, man, like so as you were talking about, you have the hypothalamus, the aggression and the sex part of the brain activate when you have that initial um view of that woman. There is the insula is active. So you have that whole body thing. Testosterone is active. Then you ask me the the key question, how does it flip over? And I think as I said, it's reciprocity. is is some kind of some kind of I won't say bonding because that's actually the next step. So if you have step step one is romantic is is infatuation then you have the romance and then you have as the third the the bonding attachment so that comes later. So once >> that comes later >> that comes later. So the initial stages is kind of it's very dopamine driven as well. So there's a lot of dopamine there too. In other words, it's excitement. It's intoxicating. You see her, then she goes away. It's this dance between knowing and unknowing. It's very tentalizing, very titillating all the time. But then you hit the attachment stage and that's when you have something. You have oxytocin and vasopressin. These bonding hormones kick in and then they create safety around that person. You feel you feel safe around them. You kind of feel like they will stay. They will not leave you. There's security. As we talked about last time, cortisol also goes through the roof during the that romantic infatuation stage. That's why you cannot say >> infatuation in particularly, right? >> Infatuation and the romance stage. In fact, that that six to eight weeks for some it's more maybe three months. >> So you Oh, so you time you put a timer on it too. >> Yeah. Like you can't go forever. So I might say eight weeks that part of So it's interesting that that infatuation stage. No, sorry. that romantic stage, right? Um, so let's call the first one attraction, >> attraction stage, attraction versus romantic obsession versus bonding. These are the three stages. Okay. Now, in the romance, the heightened romance state that is about 8 weeks, maybe max 6 months, you would run out. your brain. Literally, if I was to scan Julian in this in this romantic state and look at your brain, your dopamineergic neurons would look like somebody on crack cocaine. >> Literally, you would you would have a >> sense of you would have a you know, your brain would be hyper sensitized to to dopamine and you would and that also causes what's called globalization. So you go about in in life and you and you see a dog and you find oh it's so cute and you look at a flower and it's wow it's so beautiful and the sunset and everything the whole world is is in fact beautiful and and that's because when we fall in love we don't only fall in love with that person we fall in love with the world in fact and and the whole and the whole world becomes poetic >> when we do fall in love >> and it's that is what it is and And >> I the timeline is what's interesting to me. >> Well, let me let me start with this question. How would you how would you define love if you had to define it and you can take as much time as you want to think about that. >> So I would define love as it would depend on the kind of attachment there is right. So or the kind of experience you have. So the the the love between my mother and father, the love that I have for them, the maternal and paternal love is different. >> Interestingly, you have many of the same structures being activated. So you do have when I for example have bonding with my mother, you do have some of the same regions like the prefrontal might short shut down a little bit. It's more kind of in the oxytocin bonding. So oxytocin gives you bonding and feeling of of good if that makes sense. >> But the key difference between romantic love and between love of a mother and paternal love, maternal love is that is that hypothalamus region of the brain, that sexuality part that turns on. It dials up when it's when you have you have romance. But you do, to go into this for a second, you do form patterns in how you were nurtured with your mom and what you look for in a woman in many cases. >> 100%. Yeah. So this goes back to what's called attachment theory. And this is the idea that >> this goes back to some experiments that were done a very long time ago. And what they showed were so you had like a kid you put a kid in a in a room in a laboratory and the kid is there with the mom. There's a stranger in the laboratory too. Then you observe how that kid first interacts with the stranger when the mom is there. That's the first step. Will the will the kid feel be clingy to the mom and just hold on to mom mom you know or would it literally go over to the to the stranger and play around? there's some toys in that room as well. That's the first observation. Next, the the mom will leave. So mom leaves as the next step. And then you observe the kid. Does it cry? Does it feel So let's say in in in in some cases it may feel safe. It may just maybe maybe be a little bit sad, but then after a few minutes it kind of feels okay. It goes and plays with the stranger. It might it explores a territory even though it's kind of feels a little bit abandoned, but it's it's okay. It feels okay overall. Then what happens is the mom comes back. How does the child react? Does it hug mom? Does it reject mom? What's the reaction? Now depending on your re on the child's reaction in all of these scenarios that will show what kind of attachment you have and what kind of attachment you will have later on in life. So a securely attached person when mom leaves first of all they're not very clingy with mom when mom is there and then when mom leaves they will play around have fun with the stranger a little bit you know be very broadly explo explore the space then when mom comes back they may feel a little bit sad but then they feel okay and forgives her and and continues and move on. >> This is the securely attached but then you have people that are insecurely attached for example. So when mom first of all when mom is there they're very clingy they cling to mom all the time they want to hold her and no no no one want to go to that stranger and then when mom leaves they cry they ignore the stranger they just stay in their place and then when mom comes back they feel resentment towards mom they don't want to forgive mom and they just feel like you know mom abandoned them >> how did both of those people translate later into romance romantic how they form their romantic relationships. >> I'll get there. There's a third one is which which really interesting. This is this okay this is the distant this is the kind of the ambiguously attack like this is this is not ambiguous. This is the one you'd call um so the these are the avoidant people. These are the avoidant. Look these these are very interesting. When mom is there kind of cold detached from mom they're not really hugging mom much. When she leaves, they're kind of they don't show any reaction. They don't show any kind of, you know, sadness about her leaving. When she comes back, they're kind of uh duh. By the way, they don't play with the stranger when mom is away. They kind of >> just just sit there. This is very interesting type, avoidant. Now, now to your question, how does it translate into actual relationships later on? Literally that pattern will play out in how you bond with others. So if I have a romantic partner and I'm this securely attached, I will feel okay with her once in a while leaving, right? I don't need to like when she go on vacation, I don't panic. I don't become like my heart won't like, you know, become all agitated. My physiology won't just go all over the, you know, place. I can feel calm. I can soo my nervous system. In fact, these experiments have been shown even with physiological measures. So you measure the bar bo the the body the heart rate sweating and and you literally see how the brain activates physiologically and for the insecure pe insecure children you have all these these physiological reactions heartbeat no adrenaline adrenaline it's it's just all over the roof everything goes through the roof. Now in romantic scenarios, a securely attached people will be fine with with the lover going on vacation. They can soo themsel, tell themsel, "Oh, it's okay. She's merely just left for a little, you know, um vacation. They can soo themselves when she comes back." They may feel a little bit annoyed if they if she didn't tell, you know, warned them or something that she was leaving, but they could they can forgive easily, >> right? And then you can see the insecure how that how that kid would react. that kid would be when when you know very very clingy and then when she leaves they they become all agitated and just all all sort of they can't control themselves and and then when she comes back they feel angry at the lover. Does the pattern clear? I hope I'm not. >> It does. No, it's perfectly clear. I'm I'm curious cuz those are polar opposites, right? >> Polar opposite. >> So on the first one who's not clingy >> and is secure. Yeah. There was a loving I I'm trying to figure out where the mom's responsibility of just how they handle love comes in here. Like there was a loving relationship with the mom, but there was an ability for >> in the environment early on from being an infant on the mom was able to set some boundaries with like >> how much they were completely attached at the hip, if you will. >> Yes. In scenario two, the mom maybe was literally attached at the hip to the kid to the point that the kid developed in a way that when that's not the case, they don't even know what to do with themselves. >> It's true. And and I and I have a family member. I don't want to mention them because, you know, in the case it's it's for example, right? So, but I do know somebody from my family, you know, the way she interacts with her kids, she's making them clingy, you know, she's just giving them so much love, but it doesn't allow them to sort of explore the world. It's the love is just too much. It's too much. It's like, you know, you have to be with me all the time. I have to take care of you. And it's it comes from a good place, right? It's love. But I feel like those those kids whenever they got go out to the world, they just can't be without mom. You you have to let children go. >> Can't helicopter. >> Yeah. You have to let children go out and and and explore the world and and be independent. You can't give them too much love. Even though you love them, right? You you do want to >> put brakes on that a little bit. So So your your children become independent. >> Absolutely. It's just interesting how the nurturing aspect is how you later form the romantic aspect, but with the romantic aspect, you're adding the next layer of the hypothalamus gets involved. Yes. And there's a sexual element to it, obviously, which is perfectly how it's supposed to be. It's just evolution right there. >> But it's it's >> the part that keeps sticking out to me is the way that you put >> a timelength on on where you go from phase to phase. And I don't know, it's >> it's definitely more anecdotal how I'm thinking about it, cuz I'm thinking about like the three times in my life that I've been in love and they didn't follow a time phase at all. One time was like, you know, a 3-w week kind of shotgun somewhere else in the world. Total headover heels kind of thing. That probably happened in like 3 days. >> Yes. >> Falling in love. Another one took probably about 3 weeks or so >> to get there. Another one took more like months, >> you know. So, they they followed different patterns. But I I'd love to get your thoughts on this. When it comes to romantic love, I've always had two definitions. >> Yes. for how love works. And there's actually a different form on the way that I phrase each one. >> Yeah. >> One is strictly the word love. >> Yeah. >> And love is like a feeling that kind of gets under your skin and gets into your nervous system. You cannot explain it, but it's when you see in in my case seeing a woman where out of nowhere there's that little thing where time stops. You connect with her in a way that you cannot possibly explain. And you don't really know this person well. Maybe you've talked to them a few times, but you don't know them that well. But you have this moment in this context, in this place, in this time, wherever it may be, where when you are looking at them, you're seeing a piece of your soul in them, and you realize that you would get in front of a train and lay down your your life for this woman, no questions asked, but you cannot explain why. >> Yes. The second layer that happens is being in love. >> Yes. >> And there you have to, in my opinion, there's really two things that have to happen. The first one definitely has to happen. The second thing usually has to happen. The first one is you have to have gotten to know that person. Now, this could happen over a day or two where you're just sitting there talking like there's no clock on the wall and understanding every single person's about the every single thing about this person's life and them understanding every part about your life and just that magnetic chemistry is there. I've been there. That's that's a great feeling. >> Yeah. >> It could also take weeks and you know going on multiple dates or seeing seeing them in different contexts and you know slowly having building yourself to these conversations. >> Yeah. The second part is there usually has to be something physical >> of course >> exchanged in in a way I don't mean to say exchanged like a trade but you know what I mean like there's a sexual element to it like once you cross that Rubicon and like >> you have sex with a woman there there's a connection there and there is a >> at least from what I've seen there's usually a stronger connection from the woman to the male at the get-go but there is definitely still a connection in most cases unless you're like having late [ __ ] drunk sex or something from the male to the female as well. If it's someone that you do care about and you have that infatuation stage, >> do you think that there's anything scientific to back up my anecdotal experience there and how I define those two words, two phrases? Words. One of them is a word, the other one's a phrase. >> Julian is it's it's a beautiful definition and I think I like your definition. And what I think is that as scientists we often we often try to pinpoint various brain regions. We say this part of the brain lights up this shuts down this becomes titillated this becomes tantalized. You know truth is as Richard Fineman said the physicist it doesn't hurt the mystery to know a little about it. So knowing about love and knowing about the brain parts that light up and shut down and all that is is great and the chemistry of the hormones and and all that. But you mentioned something that really struck me in in in meet Joe Black when have you seen that coffee shop scene is a very famous scene when he says you know u lightning might strike you know he's talking about meeting meeting the one and then he says Brad Pitt's character the he says lightning might might strike and I think we can spend centuries decades exploring the neuroscience of love but when Shakespeare said, "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate, rough winds to shake the darling butts of May, and some as le has all too short a date. Sometimes too hot the eye of heaven shines, and often is his gold complexion dimmed." I think that captures much more than we can capture in brain scans. What Shakespeare is saying here, he's saying in short, your love is much more beautiful than a summer's day. It's much more temperate. A summer's day has a short lease. Its complexion might be too the sun might be too shiny. Okay? And and he's using all these vivid metaphors to capture what love is all about. that I think we could never capture using neuroscience and brain. So I think >> Billy Shakes was the truth. >> He was the truth. And I think there's something there. I think there's something there about about about love about when lightning strikes that we cannot capture in words. >> There's a line that always stuck with me. It was a Sicilian saying that they put in the Godfather when Michael sees Appalonia for the first time. >> Yes. and one of his guards says to him, >> "He's been struck by the thunderbolt." >> Yeah. >> And you see, I mean, it's perfectly shown on screen, just like the two staring at each other, and she's not really sure what to think yet, but you know what he's thinking. And I I you know, the irony is obviously there's no such thing as a thunderbolt, but it's like this unexplained phenomenon where you hear it and you know what it means even if it doesn't exist and it's just a thing. And I've definitely experienced that before where where you are in a situation where you don't >> That's the thing. I' I've experienced that at least four times before. >> And you never expect it to happen. That's the magic of it. You're never like, "Oh, this is this is how it's going to go or like this is going to unfold right now." You're like, "What?" And >> yeah, >> what the [ __ ] just happened to me? >> Absolutely. It it is like lightning striking you and and and as a poetic person myself, somebody who loves poetry, you know, and and and having a poetic view and and a spiritual view of the world, I I literally cannot say other than it seems like a divinely >> divine thing when you you do meet somebody and and there's that connection and then when you get to know them and it kind of just there's a harmony there and there's a sense of like, you know, souls connecting that definitely that's that's something something special that that that science can cannot capture. But I but I do think poetry can sometimes tap into and and give you >> give you a feel for what what it feels like that experiential that personal sense of of of of having that connection. >> Oh, I agree completely. >> Yeah. >> Is there science to back the idea that some such thing as a soulmate exists? like people actually do have some I always like the the wedding crashers definition of this a counterpoint of their soul and another person that exists on the planet. >> Yeah, it's a good question. I do I I kind of believe in in in that there are people out there that are divinely ordained to be ours and that just >> you know their souls is sort of souls connecting but obviously that's outside parameters of science. From a scientific perspective, we had what's we have what is called a positive delusion. So when you do fall in love, you have to you you will need to be you need to have that feeling that she's the only one in the whole world that can >> Yeah. >> that can she's the only one in other words like that. Appalonia and and and like Michael Corleion, right, in Sicilia, >> that feeling must be there of of that she's the only one. And that is the prefrontal shutting down and the TPJ shutting down. And so you kind of feel one with her and and and and the dopamine centers are because they're so hyperactive, they can create delusions. >> We know that when serotonin goes down, when this chemical of of calmness and all that goes down and and eventually the and dopamine goes up, especially with dopamine going up to the prefrontal cortex, that's when delusions can occur. Like in OCD, for example, you have the exact same pattern. OCD kind of looks like romantic love, like that obsessional component, right? Obsess obsession about the girl, you know, has she texted me? You go check the messages. Has she texted and you keep checking and you know, so that's that's that's kind of like the OCD scenario. And OCD, you have tons of delusions, too. >> The whole world is contaminated. Everything is is is is dangerous. You know, >> it's fascinating. That's on like the same wavelength. >> Same wavelength, right? So, but definitely dopamine and and delusions are is are a key component of that positive delusion of of of that she's the only one. But it has to be there. You have to have that positive delusion. That's important. You need it for for romantic for romantic bonding, you know, and for for romantic love. >> All right, real fast. I just got to use the bathroom, but I want to stay on this. This is really good. We'll be right back. >> All right. All right. We're back. So, how do you attraction's obviously a key part of forming love or getting to that point and whatever, but you also see >> the fact that male and female brains >> work entirely differently. They they have different phases as well. And so attraction isn't like just this vacuum all the time where you have it and then it's just there and that's what it is. You can go through hot and cold periods where it's like you like someone and then out of nowhere you can't explain why, but you hate them and then eventually you like them again. Then maybe you love them, but then you really hate them. I'm not even talking about like when you're in a relationship, just in general with friendships as well that could later become something like that. How do we scientifically maybe start with females? How does >> how does it happen to where females can go so hot and cold on liking you one minute and not being about you the next minute? Hot and cold is interesting. Did we talk about emotional contrast last time? >> No. >> Emotional contrast is a is an interesting one. So I I wasn't aware of this >> previously, but I kind of became I had to study this and and and learn about this. It's fascinating. So we as men are taught that we have to be kind of cool and laidback and and not really give ourselves to a woman, not show our emotions perhaps and and just kind of be laidback and all that. And it turns out there's a powerful concept with emotional contrast where if you can be extremely hot, like very hot by hot, I mean extremely warm at one person at one point in time. So, you kind of reveal your emotions and you kind of let the person know that you're really into her, but then you call the next >> Yeah. push >> push pull >> that titillates the dopamineergic centers like you know drives them crazy. Obviously, you don't want to do this. You don't want to do this in a where you play games. But it teaches us that if you are vulnerable and let somebody know how you feel and they don't reciprocate that by going away, that can be one of the most attractive things ever to drive attraction because >> attraction grows in space. >> It grows in space, but it grows specifically when the dopamineergic neurons have something to anchor onto, to tether onto. So if you give them literally some you know some warmth some some some some kind of clear signals of interest and then go away and allow for the space that's when I when really something happens versus like being playing it cool all the time. >> So I think that is an interesting you know part of how dopamine works. I think that how does attraction work? I think attraction works on a lot of things. There's a lot of there's a lot of when it comes to attraction there are various components. There's the innate attraction females for example have for males and how males look. This is something innate they can't help. So broad shoulders, you know, big bre, you know, breast for some extent, you know, extended muscle musculature, upper breast, you know, and upper chest I should say and little bit of of of of um masculine traits could help. So they have we have women have this they have this this innate inclination toward masculine traits, traits that signal testosterone, right? >> Yeah, we have it too in the other direction. >> We have it in the other direction. >> Hourglass, you know, >> estrogen. Yeah. our glass. We have a specific interest in a figure that's called zero um 0.70. That's the playboy figure. That's males will consistently rate that figure as most attractive. In fact, they will rate that 0.70. Female figure as you know women who have this figure as more intelligent, as more healthy, as more as better, more moral in every category is just better. >> So, we'll put that up on the screen so people can see. It turns out good and beauty is mediated in the same part of the brain called the orbital frontal cortex. So that's why you see a Disney character like Belle, >> she's beautiful and she's good, >> right? >> There's tons of these example. Jasmine is beautiful and good >> and and and you know Scar in Lion King, he's he's evil and and he has a big scar and he's got kind of skinny compared to to um >> to uh Mufasa and and Simba and all those. So there's that component and they they and and and good cartoonists will you know exploit that. >> Absolutely. >> But yeah that's the orbital frontal cortex and so for female for males obviously big breast clear skin >> clear skin is a signal of good good health for females. So if a female has clear skin that is a indicator of good health parasite infection is probably less in such women. Think about old in savannah days right? So if she has clear skins, she was probably not infected by parasites in when in in the womb. She had a better better immune system probably, >> right? So these are all indicators of health and fertility. >> In fact, my my mentor Ramachand has a paper is called why gentlemen prefer blondes. Okay? Now this now this paper he he meant it as a satire, but he said to me and he said that publicly that there's about 10% chance of it being true. But the argument is that male will prefer females that have very fair skin and and are blondes because you can detect parasites and health easily on a skin that's fair like a more fair skin, a more white skin and also things signs of blushing. For example, if she was to be if she was to engage in infertil, you know, in cheat on you, you would know easily. She would blush and it would be more visible on the skin. >> Now, since Rama has has Ramachandran has said since that it's probably not all true, but there could be some truth to that. I mean, I don't personally know if it's always true. In my case, I actually have probably more attracted to more brown skin. That's kind of um how I um but >> yeah, I'm thinking of bias in my head right now. They >> I like Mediterranean women. >> Yeah. Italian >> out there. But like >> Yeah. >> Their skin is very often like incredible and you can tell it's incredible. Like maybe I'm biased, but they have like the best skin in the world. >> Yes. But what Ramachandran's talking about is that you can tell I think what basically what he's saying is in that theory you can see contrast more. >> You can see contrast more absolutely >> to be able to identify a weakness but also I don't know maybe I'm like trying to picture that in my head right now. It's hard for me to >> Yeah. >> I I guess it would depend on the tint or something but like >> I agree. I think I think basically what I agree with in that theory is that men prefer clear skin. clear skin that's what we prefer and that's a sign you know an indicator of health and fertility and so I think >> that is I think that is correct and and yeah man I think overall why do you so you might ask how how come how come Julian how come Julian then prefers a woman with Mediterranean how come I prefer a brown >> I don't know I never that's like the last six seven years I I didn't used to like have a type Yeah, >> I can tell you I damn well didn't have a type in college where you could get it. But like, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah, I know. Something happened there. >> Something happened there. So, there's a theory to explain all this. So, there's one theory where >> So, me personally, Baland, when I grew up in Copenhagen and in the ghetto in Copenhagen, you know, exposed to a lot of white women. >> He was a gangster, by the way. People didn't hear the last episode. Balain was Balain was wielding that knife around. >> He kept that thing on him. >> Definitely. You know, I so what what I was what I was what I was exposed to were was was white women >> and I think I had a little bit of that remnants of of of of liking more and this is talking about like a seven-year-old kid, right? But finding girls with more brown hair attractive, but but obviously more of a Danish European, right? The blondes didn't turn me on in that way. Blue eyes is just probably genetically was a little bit too far from my for my um for my taste. But then I find over the years it kind of shifted more towards from Danish to more brown to more and then brown more brown with each gradient like with each with time and we can talk about how that occurs in the brain. What's going on? >> Let's do that. >> Let's do that. So first of all, did we talk about the triangle and the square last time? No. This is So I sometimes mix these things up, Julian. I don't know where I talk about what. I don't want to repeat myself obviously, but so >> you haven't we really haven't done anything in this episode that we talked about last time. You're doing great. So, keep going. >> I appreciate it, brother. So, you show a rat a triangle. Okay. Uh, actually, you show a rat a rectangular rectangular figure versus a square. This is the rat, okay? Rectangular square. Okay? And each time you show the rat the rectangular square, you give it a cheese, piece of cheese. Now, guess what happens when you just show the rectangular versus the square? Which will it prefer? The rectangular or the square? >> The one that you get the cheese on. >> Rectangular. Now, here's the kicker. >> Now, you show a more rectangular shape than the original rectangular shape that that the rat was exposed to. So you have the original rectangular shape that the rat saw that was paired with the cheese >> and then a different even more rectangular >> longer one >> a elongated one. >> Which one will the >> rat prefer? >> Elongated one. >> Correct. The question is why that make it makes no comment. It doesn't make sense. Why would it prefer a longer one? Why would it go for a mutated version? >> Because it's a bigger and better version of the thing that was already given them. >> Absolutely. It's it's it has learned a rule rectangularity because the square and the rectangular what differentiated between the two was the more rectangularity the better. So it it has learned a rule that is the essence of the difference between rectangular and square. It has learned a rule. >> Now that gets to things like why caricature are so caricatures are so damn you know we like them so much. Okay, you look at a picture of Nixon or let's say let's say Donald Trump. He's still president, right? I should be careful. Let's say let's say let's say you you show them a picture of Baland, >> but you take the eyebrows and you amplify them. You take the nose even more pointy. Okay, the face even more like you create something that's even more bal than Baland himself. This is what a character character is about. Just like that rectangular shape, right? when the guys draw the cartoons. Yeah. Yeah. >> This is called a supernormal stimulus. It's more the essence of me than actually me. And the brains become titillated by this. >> Okay. Now, let's take this to attraction. When we initially find somebody attractive, there's a learning going on. So, I see that girl, she's very pretty. You know, I'm seven, eighty old bland. I see that girl. Well, I go my my god, my heart is pumping. No adrenaline in the system. Testosterone maybe a little bit even though I'm a kid. But I have dopamine. I have all those things. Now, now when I see her, my brain creates a template for her. I go, "My god, she is beautiful. She's gorgeous. She is just the perfect, you know, girl I want to play with in the in the in the in in school, right? I want to play with her in school. It's it's wonderful." Now, my brain creates a circuitry around that girl. All the features, the hair color, the skin, all gets burned into the circuitry. Then then I play with her for maybe a year. Time goes by. I see another girl. Now I'm 13, 14. And lo and behold, I'm attracted to her even more than the one four or five years ago. >> And now you're 13, 14. So Lil Balon's attracted to her, too. >> As you're saying, there's a sexual component. Obviously, definitely this testosterone goes through the roof at this point. But but my pointed point is in this next why do you become attracted to the next girl? And here the point is that your brain says or or one theory suggests that we take the initial features of that girl. Let's say she had a certain shape of a nose, certain lips and they tend to be amplified in the next person. >> She have she she is even more that girl than the girl itself. She has those amplified features and you go for that. So there's a development of the attraction. It takes a development where you take those features and they're amplified in the next person becoming a supernormal stimulus just like that rectangular shape. It's just more it's more rectangular than the original one. Does it make sense? >> Yeah. So like when Kanye married Bianca, she had a bigger rack than Kim K, but she looked just like Kim K. >> There you go. Yeah. >> Yeah. So you have you have the original features, but they're amplified. So this is one idea for why how attraction then evolves and definitely there is strong learning and plasticity component. So when you fall in love there's two neurotransmitters that are crucial for plasticity. By plasticity I mean the brain's ability to change its shape. >> So your brain h is made up of different modules and structures and these structures can change their shape. So they can reorganize and the way they do that is by having two neurochemicals. One is dopamine, sense of reward. So I see that girl, I find her attractive, I find her interesting. You have tons of dopamine. That's the first principle for plasticity. And then I have acetylcholine, which is my attention system. This is based on a structure called the nucleus basalis in the midbrain of 20,000 cells. They release, they have neurons that release this attention chemical. So I pay attention to her as well. So I have dopamine. I have attention and I have the attention as well. Attentive focus on that woman. When I have this, I have tons of plasticity. By the way, when we are kids, we we find ourselves in something called the critical period. >> The critical period is >> the fact that the brain is hyper plastic until like age 12 or 13. That's why when you learn a new language after 13, like me, Baland learning English, it'll be kind of like English English. But Joe, you can tell it's not really like there's something off with his English, right? It's not completely full. >> There's nothing off with your English, >> but it's not totally like you could hear it, right? Especially when like >> I mean, you have a small accent about it, >> right? But for example, I don't know what the [ __ ] you just said. >> Okay. When I speak Danish, it's completely I don't have any issues. Even if I'm sleepd deprived, tired, I speak it like with no issues. But English, I have to put a bit of an extra effort because it's not my first language. It's not my mother tongue. In fact, did you know that it's that first mother tongue is is structured and processed in a different part of the brain versus languages we learn after 13. And >> that doesn't surprise me at all. >> But that makes sense, right? That this is harder like when you are sleepd deprived, you are tired and and so forth. You literally, you know, have a harder time with with in my case English. It just becomes a little bit more clumsy. It just becomes a little bit more. >> Do you dream in English? Now, >> that's an interesting question. I've thought about this. I I don't pay attention to it. That's why I can't, you know, because because >> you got to get some subtitles on your dreams. Yeah. See what's happening. >> You know what's going on, Julian? I think is that because because dreams are all about the right hemisphere and and the right hemisphere is mute. So, the so the right hemisphere has no processing, has no idea of language. the left hemisphere you have a structure called the vernicus that's involved in understanding language and brokus area involved in produ production of language and this this is there's a there's a there's a fiber called acuid faciciculus for for the nerds out there that want to know that combi that binds combines the two >> now these are in the left hemisphere and the left hemisphere has all the language potential all the language abilities right is mute let me give you an example so if I was to communicate solely with your right hemisphere and show the right hemisphere the word run. Right? I'll show you run. >> Mhm. >> You know what it will do? It would literally start running. Okay. You'll start running when you see that word. >> And imagine now this is a split brain patient. So they can the left and the right brain are completely separated. They cannot they the left and the brain cannot communicate. So there's that caveat. So you can actually sever the the bridge between the two hemispheres the two sides of the brain. So the left and the right operate separately. Now just want to add that caveat. So you have that and then you flash the word run to the left to the to the right hemisphere over here. The person start running then you stop them and say Julian why are you running and they will say oh doctor I felt like I'm I'm I'm too out of shape. I need to get in shape. I need to build some muscle. I need to you know do some more exercise and work out. They will not say that they saw the word run in the screen because they don't have access to language. They have no ideas about the left hemisphere when it speaks it's just it's just completely has no access to to to that. Does it make sense? >> Yes. >> Yes. So, so that's an example of that. Is this also where maybe I'm relating a wrong idea here, but you in our last conversation you had been saying we can't totally understand the relationship between time and space in the brain because things aren't >> like you can't say that every synapse is measured by a certain amount of time. Some you can, some you can't. So when you're trying to relate the left and right brain as well and what one distinguishes and then the action another one then takes is it the kind of situation where it's different braintorain but the patterns are similar. So time and space is a little weird but we understand like the direction it goes >> if that makes sense. >> It makes sense. So so definitely the right and left hemisphere are process the world differently. You decode social expressions faces for example. I'm I'm decoding what is Julian thinking right now. How is his how is his facial features? By the way, there's a structure in the decoding facial features is much faster than visual recognition. Meaning there's a part of the brain involved in visual recognition. Face processing. We talked about that last time. It's called the fusifiform face area. Literally understanding faces and and processing them and knowing this is Julian. This is Joey. Okay. This is Melissa. Melissa for example. >> Now there's a separate pathway going from the visual cortex. So when I see Julian's face, it goes from the optic nerve and then it jumps over the face recognition area to the emotional part initially. So in a split second, I know Julian is angry right now. Julian is happy right now. Julian is is a threat right now. He might kill me. He's That's right. >> Right. He has, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> My point is, >> you better watch your step. >> My point is even before visually recognizing somebody, you will know their you will know their emotional expression. >> And women are particularly good at this. I can tell you. So, you know, they're very good at this. >> Yeah, they got us sized up on that. >> So, so, so this is very interesting that you have the separate pathway and it's just it just shows us that we are wired for survival and and knowing whether this person over here on the savannah is a friend or a foe is much more important than knowing who it is. In fact, >> going back to your original question, what was your original question? I think we kind of went on a off a tangent here. >> Which one? >> I think we were on attraction. You're talking about attraction, right? >> Right. So, I was talking about Oh, so you're going way back. >> I was What I had asked you was, "Why does attraction get hot and cold? Why does it flip between like being so into someone and then being completely disgusted by that person?" It works in in directions of both genders. I started by asking you about why females may be like that, but us males are like that, too. It just might be a different >> and then we pivoted to language and then we pivoted to plasticity and then all that. Yeah. I think to going back to the original attraction question and the rat and and yes, this is how attraction work in the brain. I think there's that that component to it of of definitely there's a huge prefrontal component to attraction as well. >> Just like pull the chair in a little bit. I want you comfortable. Just like pull the chair in and sit like that. That's cool. Sorry, I'm just lining you up on your mark here. There we go. >> Is that good? >> I cut you off, but we got to get the we got to get the mics. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. That's good. >> There's a huge prefrontal component to it. Have you seen Coming to America? >> Of course. Eddie Murphy. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> It's here in New Jersey, wasn't it? It was like there's a new >> They filmed it in New York and then they had a Wasn't >> Queens. I think it's like Queens. That's where >> a little bit that might have gone over Jersey. >> There's something going on there. >> Yeah. >> Now, there's a scene in that movie where the prince the prince's um servant Semi Okay. when they arrived in that and they work in that Mcdow, that fake McDonald restaurant, and they're obviously into the girls that work there, the two boys, the Eddie Murphy's character, the prince, and his servant Semi. >> Now, Semi is interested in Lisa's sister, Patricia. >> Yeah, >> he's he wants her. He He wants to pursue her, but but she is not into him at all. At all. Okay. She's not attracted to him whatsoever. But eventually as things progress, Semi tells, you know, Patricia that that he's actually a prince. He's lying. He's the prince servant, but he tells her that he's the prince. And there's a complete shift in her in her attraction to him. She's suddenly find him attract attractive. He's, you know, now he's he's the man and all that. And and my point is in attraction even though you have the initial you know parameters of attraction you find you have it has the right features he looks good he looks like the boy on the playground when you you know you're a kid and all that but then there's a cognitive social hierarchy component oh this is a prince oh this is a you know you know multi-billionaire oh this is a this is a that and so there is that >> there is that cognitive component in in in prefrontal >> processing in the prefrontal cortex saying, "Oh my god, this is an attractive person." >> I think what you're also getting at with a bigger pattern is when people fall in love with the idea of somebody. Yes. >> And this is something both genders fall into the trap of this. It's like, >> you know, a guy may may tell himself he's in love with a girl because she's good-look, she's from a good family, >> nice enough, you know, offers to help out when you take her to other places, which makes you look great, >> has a great smile, you know, has a pretty good job, >> smart, >> and you're kind of like going down the checklist like, "Oh, this is all awesome." And you tell yourself, you know, sex might be great, but you tell yourself, oh, I I love this girl. >> Yes. >> Because you're also thinking about, >> well, what is my family going to think of them? What are my friends going to think of them? Or is this the kind of person that like they're going to brag to their friends and family about? >> And then you get to a point where you can't explain it, but you realize, wow, why do I not feel like that spark? And it's because you've been checking these boxes. And like again, you also see the same thing happen with women towards men. They're like, "Oh, he's goodlook. He has a good job. He's funny. >> My dad likes him." Whatever. And then, >> you know, they wonder why it's not there. So >> the hierarchy thing is more I guess the question I'm looking for here is when you're looking at like hierarchies or checking a box with people is that more of like >> a trap in the brain to where you you believe that the different functions of the brain that require love are firing only to later learn that they never were at all? or do you actually get your brain to fire in those ways to later then kind of come back to earth and be like, "Wait a minute, I never really felt that way." >> It's it's an interesting question. So, there's something what you're talking about is known as the halo effect. Exact thing that you find like whatever you see as as as beautiful. You give them positive traits. Oh, she's dependable. Oh, she's nurturing. Oh, she's a potential good wife potential. Oh, she's a good mother as well potentially. So, you have all this trick trickles down. Now the question is then how does it work? I think there's a gender there's a gender spec specificity to it. So it's gender specific and it's also person specific. So let's start with gender specificity first. Females are more context dependent in their in their love and attraction. So men it's more much more visual. Oh, she fits the category of she's beautiful, she is attractive, she she has all these features. She's probably nurturing and she may show signs of also being nurturing and and being highly um you know she's be the short thing is we are very visually driven much more than than the conceptual parts of her being nurturing and a good mother although we take that into account as well. Okay. >> Now on that note female on the other on the other hand are are much more driven by context. So there's the initial attraction, but then the context comes in. Is this guy good potential? Can he make money? Is he does he have is he driven? Is he ambitious? Does he have social status? How does he fit in the social hierarchy and attention structure? So females have something called the attention structure. So you, for example, would be high in the attention structure with all your, you know, videos and all that people pay attention to. But it it's actually one of the things that females find very attractive is because in nature we only pay attention to important stuff. So being high in the attention structure is attractive. Does that make sense? >> It makes total sense. And it's also funny that like I'm way more attracted to the women that don't give a [ __ ] about any of that. >> You are. But for for them it's different though. Yes. For them it's different. And the point here is that female have these wired in because for them childbearing nine months and then having to raise this child is a very heavy process and it's a very it's a very heavy duty. >> It is a very cost >> Oh the Sorry, you said raise a child. >> Yeah, raise a child. >> I thought you said erase a child. I was like wait a minute. >> No, no, raise No, no. >> Okay. >> Raising a child and and and and and all that is a very costly process. Is a very costly thing. And so you need a male a man that can provide and take care and be strong as well. Male males, females like uh strong men. We talked about the bodyguard effect last time. They like men who can calm, composed, strong, can protect her. All these will help her with her with her pregnancy and then help raise the child in in secure environment. So there is that difference between males and females. And then there's the the p personal aspect. So I for example have heard many have told me like mentors Ramachandran for example he would often say oh this girl over here she's perfect for you Jalal. She he used to call me Jalal. For some reason he just kind of >> last name >> he grabbed onto that. In his culture you always call people by their last name. His name is not even Ramachandran is Villanur but he call it Ramachandran. So they use the last last name. >> Now >> Jalal is a fun fun name to say. Balan's fun too, but like Jalal is like it's got a little ring to it. >> It got a little ring to it. >> Little music in the >> little bit musical. Yep. >> So my point was he would find some lady in his lab in his laboratory that was maybe she fit the boxes of somebody a scientist kind of same area, you know, very driven and motivated and and then attractive at the same time. And he' say, "Jalal, this is for you. Let's let's do something here. That's and I was like, "No, even though if she even if she was pretty and she was just me personally, I I may find an I may go to some country. I may go to Turkey. I may go to I may go to Iraq, my home country, the Kurdish region of Iraq, and I may see a girl just walking about like Appalonia. And I would rather have her much more >> like the girl that you see in lightning strikes versus the the one who fits all the boxes. I don't I don't give any I don't give a damn about educ how educated she is, how much money she has, her heritage. In fact, I don't even In fact, I don't even like women who use their body too much to display their beauty. This is something I do not like. >> I agree. >> There is a study research shows clearly that there's two kind of mating strategy strategies for men. So, and for females too, by the way, it goes vice versa. If we look at faces initially when we see somebody and we kind of zoom in on that that's a sign of a long-term mate that we're interesting in long-term mating. If we look at the body >> Yeah. >> that's a sign of lust and short-term mating. And so for the women out there and the women that I find that in in later years I find that especially as as you know you become as you do more and you do lectures and you go around females sometimes will come at you. This is, you know, this is something that happens to to men and and they throw at themselves at you with their bodies. >> Yeah. >> Thinking that they can use their bodies, use their, you know, showing their breasts, showing their bodies, and that will make you like them. If I'm just I'm saying if you're a female and you do that, you are titillating these short-term mating circuits in the brain of a male, you know, it's not the right thing to do. It's not the right thing if you want a man to fall in love with you and really be into you the person. Personally, I like women with some like some sense of graceful modesty, a sense of like >> elegance, >> elegance, carrying her self with self-dignity, not taking her body is is is sacred like a it's you know what I mean? Like it's not something that should just be thrown at men left and right. But I see that in fact, I don't know if it's just me, but when I was younger and like in high school and things like that, women were different. Maybe it's the times, they were more elegant. They were more sort of you fell in love with their, you know, you would potentially fall in love with their personality, their beauty. Palonia, you see her face, and you can make sense of her body. Like, it's not like her body is invisible, but it's just not like all over. I just don't feel that. >> I think it's what social media has done to people. And and I I've seen it happen in both directions, too. like I don't think >> in any way men are innocent either. It's just >> it's a competitive nature. It's getting on trends and you know, oh, >> she's dressing like that. Okay, I'll dress something like that, too. Even if you don't realize you're doing it, >> right? >> It certainly happens. It does, you know. So, I see what you're saying and I also completely agree. I never whenever I'm thinking of like a girl I'm attracted to, the first thing I'm thinking about is her face. It's the first thing that pops in. I don't I don't go like oh what's the size of her ass? >> You know that may come second but you know it's like you are thinking about the most important part which is how I connect with with you on a personal level. the soul, right? The eyes as as the poets and and the mystics with the windows to the soul, right? It's it's where it all happens. And so that is my and I think women just get it wrong just like we men get it wrong and think we have to be bad boys. We have to be macho. We have to ma women like males that are hard and strong and and and and cold and >> but they can smell when you're not in your own skin trying to do that. >> They can smell that and it's simply not true. They do not like this. In fact, studies show that females and males for long-term mating prefer men that are kind and vice versa. This is for both genders. Kindness, sincerity, generosity, >> charitable. >> So, a couple things there though. >> Yeah. >> First of all, you just said for long term >> for longterm meeting. Yeah. >> And secondly, when you say they're preferring, is this based on what they're being pulled at? Like when you ask them what they >> survey? Yeah. What they prefer in male? What kind of traits? And this is >> so All right. I'm going to push back on this a little bit. I think that there's first of all, I think there's a balance in in two worlds. You have on one end of the spectrum all of the characteristics that you just name. On the other end of the spectrum, you would have like what Andrew Tate says like you got to [ __ ] everything, [ __ ] them, you know, which is just like I I think that's crazy, too. >> But there's a balance here that I think women want even if they don't say it. If if you are absolutely all those things at all time, caring, nurturing, whatever, you can eventually kind of become >> safe >> Yeah. but in the wrong ways. I think I think part of being safe is also being something that >> in some small ways they always have to chase with you a little bit. What that doesn't mean is that you should try to set up systems or become something different to try to match that box of what that is. I think you have to absolutely be yourself. And if there are some weaknesses in attraction that exists with you being yourself, you have to live with that and make up for that in other ways. >> But when you're saying like women want all those things in a long-term partner, yes, they want aspects of that. But if you were all those kind of like almost more caring female characteristics 100% of the time, it'll get old for them. It for most women it does. >> 100% agree. So, when I say they prefer generosity and kindness and all that as as long-term traits, that doesn't mean that you buy her like cars and roses and you're kind of totally into her in the in the in that sense. It means that you have those traits overall in you that you have kindness, you have empathy, you have these that you have these traits. A an a great example would be in two characters. In fact, have you seen Beauty and the Beast? >> Of course, >> you have Gaston on the one hand. Okay. big neck, very masculine muscles. He he eats a dozen eggs a day. You've seen that. It's a very it's a >> and he's just uh complete narcissist. So he's he's he has the dark tribe traits that you some people in social media might have. So he's marvelian, psychopathic, and and narcissistic. So he has >> that's what Naen was talking about when she was here. So we we can go into those traits, but these are traits that women find attractive when they are teenagers and one and and more for short-term mating. These are the Gastong. These are the ultramasculine red pill psychos. Okay. Now the beast, what is the beast all about? When Belle goes to the castle and meets the beast, initially the beast is is a beast. He's he's terrifies her. He's scary. She doesn't like her. But over time, Belle likes learns to like him. He's kind of clumsy like the way he eats. And you know, when they get to know each other, he's kind of messy. But he's he's human. You know, there's something there's something there that female like about clumsy men, too. In the coffee she coffee scene, meet Joe Black. Joe Black is also kind of clumsy. Kind of the coffee kind of spills over a little bit and he's kind of a little bit, you know, there's there's something endearing about that too, by the way. Now, so he has that, but the beast has capacity even though he likes Belle. First of all, he's not completely clingy. He lets her go. In fact, he says, "Go to your dad." The dad is being harassed by Gastlong and his men. So, he says, "Go, go to her. Go to your dad. You are no longer a prisoner." She was held as a prisoner, by the way, Belle, in in the castle of of of the beast. He says, "Go to your dad. You are no longer my prisoner. You're free. What trait does he signify there? What you know that's an example of not being clingy. >> Learning that love is sacrifice. That love is all about loving somebody but understanding that you love them for you love them for who they are, but you want them to be happy. That's what love is all about. Not you being possessive. It's not a possessive narcissistic love. For Gaston, it's all about a trophy. Bell is the trophy. I have another trophy on the wall. Well, I have all my pictures of Gastong, but then I have Belle, the most beautiful girl in the village, as the next trophy. The beast, on the other hand, is is it's all about I love her and I want her to be happy. Let her go. That's the first trait. Second, the now she Belle goes out in the forest and the wolves attack. The wolves attack Belle. There's that that attack of wolves and the beast can now he has this magic mirror so he can see what she's doing. and he sees that she's being attacked by this by these wolves and he comes and protect her and and sacrifices himself. In fact, he's almost dead. He's he's being eaten by these wolves, but he's protects her and saves her. That's the bodyguard effect, strength, masculinity. All right? Then they go back to the castle and Belle is able to take care of him. That's a another feature of romantic love. When the women take cares of a man and and and he's sick, he's a bit that's the mother, the maternal instinct. You see, attachment comes in now. It's that's not a very that's not a sexual thing. That's more attachment that is oxytocin, these bonding hormones that we have the mother with her child has, for example, that kicks in now and she starts bonding with the beast. So there's all these features of the beast having strength, sacrificing love, and then at the very end, Belle learns to love this beast that was so rude and held her as a prisoner. >> And why did she do that? >> She does that because he gradually reveals his character. He's a character that is strong, but he let he lets her go. He lets her go because he knows that that is the right things right thing for the happiness. Love is all about sacrifice. Have you seen that scene in Titanic where Jack says to Rose, "There's only these there's only so many boats. Only so many boats on the Titanic." And then he says to Rose, "Rose, you go. I I will take another boat." Even though he knows there is no other boat. You take this boat. You go. And she kind of goes on that boat. And the Bose boat goes down and and and and Jack is kind of looking at her and she looks at Jack and the boat goes down. And Jack knows for for that that moment he knows he will never see Rose again. And this kind there's a sadness in his eyes. He's trying to hold back his tears, but there's a sadness in his eyes. And then Rose looks at him and looks at him and looks at him, >> jumps back on >> jumps back on the on the bloody ship. That's what love is all about. That moment >> there was until that cold-hearted [ __ ] wouldn't let him on the [ __ ] plank. There was a lot of room on that thing. There was a lot of room on that boat. >> There was enough room. >> There was enough room for two people there. She let him die. >> 100%. No, I can uh >> I'll never get over that. I >> I'll take that. I'll take that. >> But you see how you see what I mean, right? You see that that in that that insanity of that action of that woman is what love is. It's insanity in that moment that she's ready to die with the man that she just had that that poetic encounter with. How do you explain that scientifically? You tell me, Julian, because I have no idea. The fact is >> you're looking at me. >> It's crazy. >> From New Jersey, >> right? >> It's like, right. explain it scientifically. Yeah, I there there's a lot going on there. I the beauty and the beast example is an amazing example though it >> because >> you talk about love is sacrifice 100%. >> And then and this is this is where I love when philosophy and science kind of get like a little intertwined and you can't tell which is which at some point. But like love is sacrifice. Great, 100%. Then Belle gets into danger. >> Yes. and a biologically, you know, in this case, superior male is able to physically come in and protect and save her. Key word being >> save there because I think people misinterpret this a lot. They do >> with the >> with the with the gender dynamics. It is a common trap for a man to think a woman wants to be saved. And they don't just mean physically like go protect her if like she got in trouble or something like that, but they think like you gotta pull her in and, you know, kind of show her the way and save her in this world. It's so scary. The reality is that's actually usually the opposite of what they want. What they want is physical protection. And to know that's there, that's evolutionary. But in many ways, women like to see men as some sort of like, you know, from a mental perspective, some sort of like problem that they can help fix a little bit. like they actually want to come in and save you. So, it's like you exchange the physical saving protection for the mental and like kind of spiritual saving and protection that they want. But men will often think that they need to do both. for women and one is something that repels them completely because it's like they're they're very often not in every case this is across the the masses and percentages here very often they're more like no I can take care of my own mind like I'm I'm good you don't need to come in and tell me how to think or or that everything's going to be okay all the time you know what I mean >> yeah I do I definitely know what you mean and and there is that that component to it I think um that's very true can we say we get a little break >> on the side middle of the conversation I feel my bladder is just expanding. >> It's perfect. We'll be right back. >> Great. >> All right, we're back. We had we had started this whole loop talking about the phases of love. So, infatuation, romantic, and then bonding. Is that the third one? >> Yeah. Yeah. And by the Exactly. And by the way, don't they don't have to come in in right that order. So, you can have, you know, >> Oh, >> you can have bonding first, romantic, and then and then the, you know, infatuation. So, it doesn't have to be it depends. It's very, it can be cultural, culturally dependent, but it often is that like literally it often is you first seeing her and then having that romantic infatuation and then having the bonding, but it doesn't have to be that way. >> All right. So, maybe a good way to go through this example would be one we started to talk about last time you and I were talking, which is the Titanic. >> Yes. >> Example with Jack and Rose, which you were just mentioning a few minutes ago. But like can you walk me through how like in the movie how each phase worked and like when it crossed from one to the other? That might be helpful for people to be able to understand. >> 100%. So I haven't watched a movie in a long time, but I've watched a lot of clips for my for my course. Right. So Jack is is on the a ship and he sees Rose. The first time he sees her, she's up there and he and he's and she's on the other deck on the top deck and he's down there and he she he sees her and she and he's struck by lightning. That's the lightning striking. >> Yeah. >> So, that's the first aspect. Then >> that's infatuation. >> That's infatuation. That's the That's the infatuation state. That That's attraction. >> Then you have afterwards she's trying to kill herself in fact. So she's fed up with all the highass stuff, you know, the the her her rich husband, you know, and and and that life, that high class life. She feels it's it's it's constraining her, making her feel, you know, she doesn't feel good about that. >> And so she wants to now kill herself. Goes out on the on the ship on the on the edge of the ship and wants to jump down out. Jack comes out and says, you know, you you can't jump and you know, the water's too cold. It's going to kill you. It's like freezing. And he's able to what he does actually is an interesting trick Julian. What he does is she is all she's all limbic driven. So the emotional core of the brain the fear part of the brain the amygdala is hyperactive in her wanting to jump out of the ship and kill herself. >> What he does is actually a very clever trick. So the I think I'm not sure if the James Cameron thought of this but what he does but what Jack does says he starts saying well do you know I'm from like I'm from Milwaukee or something you know this and that and he starts talking about like cognitive stuff. >> Yes. >> Activating her prefrontal cortex. So now her prefrontal cortex comes online and then he goes oh by the way the water water is freezing cold as well. And starts to talk about like prefrontal stuff. And we know that when the prefrontal cortex is highly active, it will often dampen the activity of the amydala and the fear centers. These two centers tone tend to not be active at the same time. They act they're very antagonistic. That's why in depression, for example, you see people with depression, you will have a literal activation of the emotional core of the brain, the amygdala, the ACC and fear departments being activated in a temporal way that it precedes the prefrontal. Mhm. >> So there is that and he and and Jack really very clever he taps into that and he's able to get her off uh put it in a prefrontal state of of of being >> emotional override of the logical >> of the logical part of the brain. So we have that and then that is a source for bonding. He becomes the beast that saves Belle out of the from the wolves. This is literally the same scenario just her jumping down. He he's much more of a verbal guy. He's not the muscle guy, Elonardo DiCaprio in in that movie. And so this is his his way of saving her. Next, what he does, he takes this lady and takes her on a journey, Rose basically. And what he what way does he do that? He basically the way he does that is by saying, "Look, this is your life. Your life is trapped. You feel you are trapped. You're been being told 24 hours what to do. You have to eat this food. You have to dress this way. you have to obey this man. You know, this is your life. And she's she's feels feels imprisoned. And so what Jack does is that he provides an alternative reality for her that's intoxicating. It's an escape from her world. It's very dopamineergic driven and we know love obviously you have a lot of dopamine and so he's able to give her that. And women actually I feel like I don't even feel that but but there's women do like that when men can tell take a woman and take her on a ride in life. It's like you when you take when a when a father takes her child when I when I take my child and I play play with my child lift my child and throw her around and lift her and put her here and you know and and you know do all these crazy games with her that are kind of a little bit aggressive but she but the child loves it. The little girl loves it. I think women unconsciously want that from a man as well. A man that can take her for a ride on a magic carpet just like Aladdin and Jasmine. Take her out of the palace. Take her out of the her world and show her a whole new world. >> Adventure. >> Adventure. And I think >> so women love that. And that's what Jack is doing. That's what Aladdin is doing with Jasmine as well. And so he does that and she falls in love with that that she goes back to being a teenager again to to having that that ride and then they bond obviously and there's some bonding going on and attachment as well although it's over a course of a few days but there's some bonding going on and then eventually now at some point in the in the movie not going to going into too many details roes leaves him she says no I cannot go into your Well, I cannot continue to be with you. And he goes out on the deck that we talked about that last time. And then she later regrets. >> But he also, and you laid this out last time, he >> felt the emotion. He sat in it, but he was able to detach and not let it own him. >> Again, he was the beast, like the beast scenario. He let her go knowing that I want what is best for her. >> Yes. >> And when she leaves, I will stay in a masculine calm composure. I will not let the emotional part of the brain overwhelm my prefrontal cortex. So I become destabilized. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's key for for for what a woman wanted in a man. The emotion ha the emotions have to be there like he looks devastated on that out on the front deck and all that. He he looks devastated. You can see he's kind of looking out with his eyes squirted and he looks out and he's not happy. You can tell he's his heart is broken. But then when Rose comes out and says, "I've changed. I've changed my mind. And then he says, "Shh." And then they do that that that that classical scene when when you know they look out and I'm a king of the world and all that, you know, that kind of I'm flying Jack and all that. >> Point is that that's that's part of it. eventually then then then obviously sink you know the the the ship sinks and and all that happens and and um oh there's another scene I have to say in that movie before we conclude this movie on that on that little thing on the what do you call that the when they're drowning at the very end >> oh on the board >> on the board there you know did do you notice at some like he's down there he's dying right he's he's actually dead at this point he has given He has told well actually before he dies he says to Rose he says to Rose promise me that you will go on that you will live and you will have children and be happy and all that right he says >> I will go on >> all that stuff right >> when when then the when the ship when the boats come back for her >> Jack there's a boat >> exactly >> but you notice that she he's he she's ready to to give up but the only thing keeping her from giving up is the fraction That's the promise she gave >> to Jack. And she then continues. It's a it's a intense love story, but I think >> it captures what >> what love is all about. What's happening in the brain, the positive delusion, >> positive delusion. >> Yeah. This is the only person in the world that can can be the one. And this is really the the these regions of the brain turning on and off in this um this pattern. >> Yeah, it is kind of a perfect story the way they did that and craft that. That's why it's >> beautifully cinematically as well on the ship and everything. Yeah. >> Now, what about the attraction though physically that happens with sex? The reason I asked this is cuz obviously >> when you have sex, well, at least from the male perspective, this isn't always the case for females. It's harder for them with with full orgasm and everything. But with men, like sex is great. >> That said, even with us, like it can eventually get stale. And then that is tied sometimes scientifically to us losing attraction for a woman. Like, okay, this is kind of the same thing over and over again where we allow it to then override all the other things that might be great in the attraction that's happening with the woman outside of the bedroom, but what is it in the brain that can kind of cause that to wear away to where maybe it just gets stale and then you're unwilling to think that that will change at some point? Do you mean the habituation where you become like if it's repetitive? Is that what you're saying? >> Yeah. >> So the dopamineergic system and this is known as the coolage effect. If you have like you have you have a hamster or a rat or something. You know it will engage in sexual intercourse with other hamsters until a certain point but then at some point it will just stop. >> It will become desensitized. the dopamineergic neurons will stop firing and this is you you have you're did you know that dopamine in the brain is a set we have a set amount at any given time so I can only be happy at so much happy in a given week and then eventually I have to go down to baseline and beneath baseline in order to have dopamine recharge so I can't be >> be having intercourse 24 hours I mean the hamster would would not be able to but but then if you introduce a new hamster into that cage, it will start doing this the sexual act again. This is the coolage effect. Eventually the the the same dopamineergic stimulus or stimuli if there are multiple hamsters will will desensitize the dopamineergic system and if you provide a novelty then you will have potential attraction again. But let me tell you here there's actually in that in that hamster or in a rat right when it's engaging in these acts there's a circuit going from the in the amygdala right that core fierce end of the brain >> it actually has many subcomponents. So if you go into the nitty-gritty of neuroscience and really look at it, there's subcomponents and there's a there's a part of it called the bed nucleus of the strriat terminalis >> nucleus of the strriataterminalis. >> Bet nucleus of the strat terminalis nucleus. >> Yeah. That part of the brain there's a circuit. There's a circuitry going to the hypothalamus. And you know the hypothalamus too well now, right? >> That circuit if you sever it in these rats, get guess what happens? It will it will stop mating altogether. Regardless like you provided tons of new hamsters, it will just stop mating. It >> takes away the impulse for >> it takes away the you have severed you have cut the sexual sexual circuit in the brain. have removed sexuality by >> by by by by severing the the the bet um the circuit in the amygdala to the hypothalamus the bet nucleus of strataminal analysis to the nucle to the hypothalamus that is a sex circuit and if you stimulate that part of the brain while it's even though the dopamineergic system is dying off it will keep engaging in the in the act so literally we have a sex circuit in rat that could perhaps also exist in humans it's very interesting it's very interesting we have this >> absolutely >> but the coolage effects really is is what explains it that if if males have have you know are sexually engaged with a woman um they will eventually desensitized um >> that's why you also got to mix it up too you know like it it if you start to make you know the way that you physically show love to be just kind of like a routine >> yes >> or sure I don't know how it will get to that point but it does for people Yes. >> Then you it's like a cascading effect to the rest of the attraction. It just kills it. >> Uh 100%. So yeah, that when I when I'm saying that when I'm saying a dopamineergic neurons will die off by that I mean not that you know that you will start being not being attracted to your wife. It just means novelty. It means that you have to detach some you know sometimes and and and so forth. uh meaning you don't you know have some abstinence might help for for certain amounts of time could could recharge the doeric circuits but yeah I think novelty is really is is the key for for that um >> but yeah man that the the whole attraction love >> stuff is interesting I also covered transcendent love I'm not sure if you're interested in that >> transcendent love >> yeah love of God and spirituality >> I think that was that was a key key part of of it and so of what I was talking about and So it's a completely different type of love. Now it it's interesting with the romantic love though there's also a they there's also a transcendent quality to it almost. It's has a spiritual soul component. >> But then when you're dealing with love of God and love of of of spirituality that's completely different realm. And so so yeah that's very interesting. >> Yeah. And what what makes it I mean it's obvious that it's it's a different thing, but >> I guess like scientifically what's so different about the way we express that love spiritually? >> Spiritual love. >> Going to put up my jacket. I kind of feel a little bit chilly now. >> Yeah, we keep it we keep it icy in here. >> Keep it. >> Yeah, it's a little bit cold. >> It's a little trick of the trade. You don't want people hot in the chair cuz they get sleepy and they're not as good. So, I like it cold rather than hot. Got a high air conditioning bill around here. >> You're doing hot cold on me, huh? Emotional contrast. >> That's right. That's actually You're on to me. >> All right. >> It's it it was it was actually in inspired by some people smarter than me who understand the way the human brain works when they're talking. >> Awesome. So, no, I think transcendent love is is interesting. It taps into consciousness and what consciousness is all about and where it all comes about. If you look at the brain, there's a part we talked about before called the limbic structure of the brain. Now in the limbic in the limbic brain, if you use a helmet called the god helmet and you stimulate that helmet, you literally feel divine beings. You will have angels. You will see angels. You will feel there's you know have all kinds of spiritual experiences. This is Michael Persingers's helmet 1990s. Very interesting work. >> H see angels. >> People see report seeing angels. >> What about like demons? >> They might as well. So it depends on your state and and how you feel. If you have in the temporal loes if you have epileptic seizures, meaning the neurons in the limbic structure go ballistic, they fire in a high rate and you have a seizure in that part of the brain. You can develop what's called temporal lobe ep epilepsy or temporal lobe personality. This is interesting. So imagine this just a part of the brain. This is a regular part of meat tissue in the brain. It becomes hyperactivated and suddenly what happens is that you will become a spiritual person. You will see I am in you will say I'm in communication with God. You become spiritual. You will start writing poetry. you focus on solely on religious stuff and you have all these spiritual qualities emerging from you mainly merely from from from these these brain circuits going arai so I think that's fascinating that that can happen and it shows us where spiritual tendencies might arise in the brain it seems to be in that limbic circuit in that limbic structure >> is there something I don't want to get like way too meta here But when it comes to like the spiritual realm >> Yeah. >> with things and how we may experience love or seeing things like you just described whether it be angels or demons. I had started to talk with you last time about this, but we we kind of got off it. Like is there something connected to >> our our consciousness with that? Meaning >> we are filling in the gaps of why we are even who we are by trying to create something larger than life or outside the known realm to explain it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of having something outside our our our skulls, this is really difficult to answer. Is this true? Is there something outside our skulls? Is there spiritual connection? You know, something out there, you know, communi communicating with us. I think that is true as a spiritual religious person. Yes, I do think it's true. And it could very well be the true truth. We talked about the radio analogy last time. If you have a radio, you you know, you play with it and the voice, you know, goes away. But really you don't know that there's radio waves coming right similar to consciousness. So I think that is all true. But I think really in terms of consciousness about and and self self can get let's talk about self a little bit and what self is because then we can get to deeper into consciousness and spirituality but but let's start there because what is self and how can self get deranged now in the SPL region of the brain up here if I have a stroke to that part of the brain SPL I might say that my left hand that is now paralyzed belongs to you. >> So I lose ownership of that hand. That's very common. So mind you this per this person is perfectly lucid eloquent. You sit down with him, play chess with him. Everything is normal. But you tell him who is this who does this hand belong to and he'll say it belongs to you. >> So he develops this delusion. or or in some cases the doctor might say lift your hand raise it and they will try to raise it you know they can't obviously but then they will say oh doctor it is an inch from your nose doctor so they will lie they will confabulate >> are you waving it yes doctor it's waving right now it's waving at you it's fine it's not paralyzed >> okay so they have these bizarre delusions of selfhood. There's a case of Oliver Saxs, one of the we we looked up Oliver Sachs last time. He has a great case study of him. He's at a hospital and he's and there's a patient of his and the patient is lying in bed and he keeps throwing down this this this his own leg. He keeps throwing it down and he keeps pushing it and said and calls the nurse and says this there's this hairy thing, you know, to the nurse, this is this this hairy thing on my my my my body. It won't it it just it's it's attached to me. It won't go away. What's happening? You know, and and the nurse is saying, "What are you talking about? It's your leg." And he's completely adamant that there's something attached to him that is not his. And this is this always happens on the left side of the body. So, it's the left leg or left arm. Why? because we build a sense of a body image in the these right parietal structures up here. That's where we build a sense of a self. So you see that this can lead to these strange delusions of self. Let me give you yet another example that's even more bizarre. There are people out there that have healthy limbs. They have healthy limbs. Nothing is wrong with them, but for some reason they want to amputate their healthy limb. Mind you, it's perfectly healthy in all respects. There's nothing wrong with the limp. They scan it. But the person says, "Keep saying, "This arm doesn't belongs to me. It's not my arm." >> And this could be any person. It could be the the director of your bank. It could be your school principal. It could be your father. It could be Uncle Joe, cashier, anybody. But they have this strange delusion that their arm does not belong to them. Then you might say, Julian might say, "What's going on in the brain? What's happening?" When you look at the brain and you want to you scan their brains and this has been done. You look at the smatro sensory region first of all to see if the sensory information is coming to the arm. We talked about the sensory map. When you touch it, that part of the brain should light up. And lo and behold, it does. You touch it, it it dances with activity. Fine. >> Next, you go back in the brain to the SPL regions where you construct a sense of a body image, but in a more abstract sense of a self. When you look there, the the arm is missing. There's a lack of representation of that arm in your body image. So that explains why they want to cut it off. Each of us, you, me, Joey, all of us have a body image, a neurologically scaffolded body image, a sense of a self with certain boundaries drawn into our brains, burned into the circuitry, and that will dictate what you feel like is your body. And if an arm is missing in that template, you would literally go and say, "Oh, my arm does not belong to me. It belongs to somebody else." Or in this case, they will say, "I want to amputate that arm. It's not a part of me." Does this make sense, by the way? >> Yeah, it does. I'm kind of want I'm thinking of like extreme examples in my head, but like I don't know if this is like a similar idea, but remember that lady Rachel Doazol? >> No. She was like 100% white, but then she started dressing like she was black and convinced herself that she was black and then told everyone she was black and then was in charge of like an NAACP chapter and then it all came out. Is that cuz like in her head she was like, "No, I am black." >> There's something similar going on with that. But in this case, it's it's definitely definitely body image specific. It's it's specific to the sense of body image. And what's really interesting then many of these folks go out and have the arm amputated. What do you think happened? Do they feel happy after the amputation or they they do they regret? >> Not happy. I'm going to guess >> they actually feel thrilled. >> They do. >> They do. It's totally >> even afterward like they don't like come too like oh [ __ ] that was >> that would be that would be the normal reaction right and that's what you see in many cases like of similar situations but in this case absolutely thrilled they are excited. They're happy. The arm is no longer a part of me. I feel good. Now, there's an even more bizarre twist to this whole whole saga here. These guys, coming back to our initial discussion about attraction, they tend to be attracted to people who have who are missing that limp that they want to have amputated. Okay? So, imagine Baland over here sitting here. He wants to amputate his life left arm. You with me? >> I'm I'm with you. >> Okay. I want to amputate my left arm and that is because the left arm is missing in the SPL in that body image. Now, if you have a girl over there and her left arm is actually amputated corresponding to the arm that you want to amputate, you will find her extremely attractive. In fact, if you have her duplicate a copy of her with the full body, you'll say, "Nah, I'll go for the one with the amputation." >> It's like you complete me by missing some parts. >> Exactly. And the question is why? What's going on? We think and this is a a theory that is proposed that the SPL the body image part of the brain is hooked up to the visual part of the brain and the emotional core and the dopabineric centers explaining and dictating the human attraction to the human form. Why does Baland find the human form attractive overall? Why do I why am I not attractive to like attracted Why are humans not generally attracted to a chair, a table? >> I can find you a few, but yeah, >> there are some weirdos out there, but you get what I'm what I'm saying. >> 100%. >> On the savannah, the human brain doesn't want to have any ambiguity. It want to be fast at zooming in on that potential mate, that human shape unambiguously behind a tree behind the bushes. And so it wants a shortcut, a circuit for saying, "Oh, this is a human body. Find it attractive." >> Right? >> Now, let's get weird. >> Yeah. But does it make sense? >> It makes sense. Let's get weird. >> Go ahead. >> What about when we're living in a world where the physical form looks human, but you know it's AI, >> you know, it's a robot. But I think that's exactly why that's exactly why robots are potent very very tricky. That's why they can trick us because they look like us. They speak like us. They have potential emotions or not emotions but they can mimic emotions extremely wide like in a very subtle way. That's that's hard for us to discern and like know that this is a human versus a robot. I always use the Terminator as an example. You know that look at the Terminator. I mean at the very end when have you seen we did we talk about the last scene in the before? I didn't I'm not sure we did. >> No we didn't. >> But in the last scene have you seen him when he's kind of like he's blown to pieces. This is the very very end. He's about to raise himself down the steel down into the the lava thing, right? >> He first of all he's he Arnold has a sense of humor. So he says like with one eye that's red and like his half his face is blown off and arm is missing. He says, "I need a vacation." This is the first thing he says. This is interesting. And then he then he goes over to the edge, a very edge with Sarah Connor and and and John John Connor and he says, "John, I need to go away. I need to go because there's an extra chip up here that needs to go into the to the that needs to be destroyed so that humanity or cannot create AI and the sky and skyet and all that." And Matt, of course, John Connor says, "I order you not to go. I order you not to go. Stay." Right? I order you not to go. But then he says, then the Terminator says, he says, as as John is hugging him and saying goodbye, he says, and and and John is is crying. And the Terminator says looks at looks at looks at him and says, "Now I know why you cry. It is something I can never do." >> Okay. He's having a very clear understanding what human emotion is all about. >> Human emotion is something that we feel although he will never be able to feel it because he doesn't have an emot emotional brain. He doesn't have a limbic structure. So he cannot he can never feel emotion but he can understand it and it could be feel very real. Right? And then eventually of course he kills himself. He goes down into the steel there and into the lava. >> Spoiler alert. >> Spoiler alert, right? For those who didn't see it, point of point of all this is that AI machines, robots will use what's called the DLPFC out here, the outer layers of the brain. They will use that for computation of of of and trying to understand human emotions as well as possible. Mhm. >> In other words, they will gauge what is human emotion all about. This is human emotions. This is how humans humans react in these scenarios. ABC da da da. But there's no actual feeling because to have a feeling you have a you have to have a medial prefrontal cortex, the middle of the prefrontal and it's and it's communication to the amygdala and the emotional core. There's a there's a wire that goes to the emotional core. John Connor has that. That's why he cries and feels emotions. The terminator, the AI, robots do not have that. In fact, psychopaths, the medial prefrontal cortex completely shut off. There's no activity there. That's why they have no emotions. The Olympic amydala completely shut off. Completely like the terminator. Psychopaths are human terminators in that regard. They are AIS, robots. They calculated. They use their utilitarian DLPFC out here. This this part of the brain. And so that's that's really the the the key. That's the difference between AI psychopaths and then human the rest of us. >> Are psychopaths born, molded or both? >> Interesting question. So there are you have psychopaths on one hand which are people that have no emotion completely flat emotionally. These are the guys that can sit at a church baptizing their niece or nephew while they are carrying out multiple murders. >> Michael Corleó. >> Or or they can have spaghetti with their mother while a dead man is or near dead man is in the trunk trying to get out of the trunk. >> Good fellas. >> This is the psychopath. No emotion. They're being chased by the police. Their heart rate doesn't go up. There's no there's no the heartbeat is just completely flat. >> You measure the sweating, nothing. Completely flat. There's no emotion. This is a psychopath. Born this way. >> Born that way. >> Born this way. You look at genes for serotonin abnormalities. All kinds of abnormalities. These are This is a psychopath. Tons of psychopaths, by the way, in politics and and business. >> You don't say. >> Yeah. It's a very adaptive trait in some in certain in certain um professions. >> An adaptive trait. >> Yes. If you can be a calculated completely rigid athlete who does all your does everything that has to happen on time you don't have emotion to interfere your mother's illness your wife's agony won't interfere with how you perform and you can be a top athlete >> though I think the true athletes the true athletes out there the great ones have heart the messes of the world the the the Maradonas of the world, the Pelle, they have heart, the greatness. You can you can be you can be the perfect, you know, athlete otherwise, but the true greats, they do have heart. They're blessed with something that is that can't be captured and and and and they they don't they don't have this psychopathy like tendencies. But this is what a psychopath is all about. Psychop psychopath is completely utilitarian, calculated. Let me give you an example. Something called the trolley problem. You know it. Should I mention it? Is it? >> Please mention it. Yes. >> Okay. All right. So, there's there's a two tracks. On one track, there's one person. On another track, there's five persons, right? A a train is going fast towards the five people about to kill them. You're on the you're on a on a bridge. You can see all that. You can flip a switch and the the train will then go to and and and change its direction and go to the track and kill one person instead of the five people. You ask most people this question, they will say unambiguously, they will just do it. I'll switch the the flip and I'll save that one person. Okay? Everybody says, "I'll do that." Right? Then there's a version of this where there's on the bridge there's a heavy guy, a chubby guy. He's in front of you and as a train is coming beneath the bridge, if you and and it's about to kill five people now. So it's not going towards one, it's going towards the five people if you're with me. If he pushes this guy over, he will fall down on the tracks and he will say he will die but he will save the five people from dying. Now if you ask people, if you have ask Joey, you have ask any person out there that's that's fairly normal. They will say no, I will not do it. >> Although the scenario is the same, right? You're killing one person and saving the five. >> But in this case, people won't do it. And and then you might ask, why is that the case? And before I say answer this question, a psychopath by the way would have no issues pushing that guy over. He will say, "I will push him over." And the reason is the following. In a normal healthy person like you and I, we consult our emotions. We consult the amydala. We consult we consult the insula. I talked about before our bodily states. We consult all these brain regions, emotional core. And then the medial prefrontal cortex says, "I just can't push this guy over. I cannot physically be like push him over and kill him. It's it's just too much. Psychopath doesn't have these parts of the brain. He uses the the utilitarian DLPFC again up here. And so for him, it's very easy just to throw him over and push him over. It's kind, you know, it reminds me of that scene in the Dark Knight where the Joker sends the two boats off the off Gotham City Island and one boat is filled with pretty much all the criminals and the other boat is filled with all the citizens >> and they each hold a trigger to blow up each other's boats. And he's expecting that he says you got 15 minutes and or you or you all die. And he's expecting people in the trolley problem of life, regardless of whether it's the criminals or the so-called normal people, noncriminals of society, he's expecting them >> to push the fat man over. The criminals viewing the fat man as anyone else who's not them. The noncriminals viewing it as, oh, they're the criminals. They already made their choice. But neither boat does it because they're unwilling to break a moral boundary to save themselves. >> 100%. So th this is a feature of the human brain when we make decision- making. Are we making decisions using the DLPFC or are we you know the outer the the the psychopath part of the brain or I say the logical part of the brain or are we using the medial prefrontal which is a bridge between emotion and higher cognitive thinking and this can be shown in other scenarios too. For example, if I was to say, "Julian, do you want $100 now or $110 a week from now?" Most people would say to this, they will say, "I want $100 now." >> Mhm. >> You know, there's something special about the here and now, right? Something. If I ask the same question, but I say, "Would you want $100 52 weeks from now or $110 53 weeks from now?" then it changes. They say give me theund 10 15 3 weeks from now. Okay. The point is >> goalpost >> in the latter scenar when when when the when when it's not about here and now you use the DLPFC utilitarian but when you when it's here and now and something you can have a reward now you use the medial prefrontal cortex. So I think basically understanding this basic difference between the medial prefrontal cortex what it does how it's important for decision-m can enrich our lives. We should make more decisions use using the DL the medial prefrontal cortex. We should consult our emotions for the right decisions. We shouldn't run to chat GBT and ask how do I deal with this problem? How do I deal with this social conflict? because it is the psychopath that is you are dealing with a psychopath when you're dealing with with chat GBT and and and these kind of >> and you're saying genetically a lot of a lot of them are pre-wired for that but do you also think that someone can be genetically not pre-wired for it and then they're you know you don't choose where you're born they're born into an environment that just completely molds them that way >> yeah come over it >> this is what yes this is True. This can happen. This is known as a sociopath. So that's the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. But a sociopath, by the way, is somebody who does have some emotion. But through exposure, being in a tough neighborhood, just having maybe being beaten as a child, having a lot of this these bonding hormones kicked out of you almost. So you've learned that the world is dangerous, that you have to be callous. and and literally it has epigenetic markers. All the traumatic stuff that you witnessed as a child, you know, alcoholic parents perhaps. And that can also shape you into a sociopath. But a sociopath would always have a little bit of emotion, a little bit of of regret, little bit of of guilt. There's something there that's not completely absent. The psychopath is just no regret. >> Yeah. >> Okay. A psychopath, a psychopath will do the following. If you break up with a psychopath like a stung type scenario, okay, who's somebody who sees a woman as a trophy, if you break up with with that guy, you know what he'll do? He might plan to get back to you by being romantic. So, he'd be very romantic, get back to you, and then he wait a year, make sure that she falls completely in love with him, and then just break up with him just to say, "Oh, this was all a ploy. I did this just to get back to you for for for for insulting me and breaking up with me. This is a psychopath. Calculated. No empathy whatsoever. Zero empathy. Yeah. >> Yeah. That was something I like I remember when I was younger, there was someone who I actually really like a lot who was giving me like some theories on on how to like go get your goals and stuff. And like we had the definition of a psychopath so wrong cuz we're like, "Oh, you could use it in a positive way because you're just so driven to do what you want to do." In reality, like it's actually in many cases even worse, like you're pointing out than a sociopath because a sociopath can actually have the environment >> mold them into being that. Not to excuse being a sociopath, but you know what I mean? Like like >> it's wild how much >> someone could just be born with that kind of tendency. And you know, we use I'm guilty of it. We use it in parland. It's like I'm a psychopath to go get my goals and whatever. But in reality, like the the root of the word itself and what it really is supposed to mean is entirely different and not a good way. >> Yeah. A real a real winner is somebody who >> I'm trying to get you. By the way, Bologan, I'm trying to get you over here just cuz like you're fading into Maximus behind you. So come this way a little bit and come into the table. Yeah. >> I'm just looking at your mark and your hat's like blending in with the >> background. That's better. That's better. >> Grab a little bit of more water. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We'll grab that. Keep going, though. >> A real winner in life, I think, is somebody who who can have the discipline, keep going, things get tough. They may have a death in the family or they may experience hardship. They lose sleep over it, but they keep going. >> Yes. that fight between the emotional brain and the prefrontal cortex is definitely there and they are they're suffering because of that seeing their ill father or something but they keep going they keep going for it and don't give up and they have that discipline regardless of how how many tears and how many >> things that they have to hold back in order to complete the work in front of them. That for me is a real winner. Not somebody who's completely cold and h and has no emotions whatsoever. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that would be an awful way to go through life too where you don't >> you don't feel anything. You don't get the chance to >> you also don't get the chance to empathize with how other people are feeling in a good or bad direction to learn from that regardless of what direction it's in. You know what I mean? Like there's something about you never like to see someone around you sad or really down or something like that. It's it's not a good feeling to see that at all. But there's something that can be learned from that. afterwards that also then magnifies the beauty of life, right? And magnifies the good things. >> Yeah. Yeah. Empathy is an interesting one. So empathy is crucial. There's two types of empathy, by the way. There's cognitive and affective empathy. >> Cognitive empathy. Psychopaths have tons of it. You use the outer layer of the brain as you mentioned. And and you and you know what somebody else is thinking. You know what their mind is up to. you can you have access to their minds almost like you know okay this person is thinking this and that and I and you have access to that that's the cognitive empathy then there's affective empathy that's the type of empathy where you feel you feel what they're feeling you have emotional connectedness with them did we talk about this last time I can't remember a little bit >> a little bit it's coming okay good so I just want to make sure we got that okay good so go back and listen to that but my point is we have these two subsystems of empathy. But empathy is crucial and empathy can sometimes override even cognitive barriers. >> So we did some experiments back in the day. >> I don't think we talked about this last time I should tell you. So we have somebody over there. He's standing over there. He touchs a cont. He touches a contaminant. Let's say fake vomit. This is what and I doing. We doing >> Oh, is this the OCD experiment? >> Did we talk about this? Yeah, we did talk. Okay. So then go back and listen to it. My point is that empathy is is a crucial part of of of our well-being. And now I'm completely off rail of whatever I want to talk about because I was planning to go down the OCD stuff. >> No, it's all good. I got I got plenty of other ideas to go with >> I think. Okay. So if you want to take a big view big view of the brain and how self comes about because we started with the self and I wanted to touch upon the self. Self is the following. To me self is this. self is the prefrontal loes. We engage in mental time travel, a sense of balan, sense of Julian through time. I was a child. I grew up in in this ghetto Copenhagen, refugee child. Came to Denmark, came to the states and so forth. Prefrontal cortex, building a sense of self. Then we talked about the insula and and mapping your bodily states. That's also part of the sense sense of self. Then you have the hippocampus, the memory part of the brain. All your memories part of the self as well. Then you have the superior parietal labial those regions involved in a sense of a sense of body image and my my body belongs to me that also helps you create your sense of self the TPJ sensory information and integrating all that and I think conjoinly these circuits in the brain creates what's called the self and from the self then comes consciousness. You cannot talk about consciousness a sense of a conscious being without a self. What would be you can't have free floating consciousness. You have to have a self that's mapped onto that consciousness and linked to that consciousness. That's right. >> So I think you have to have a self. You have to have these structures in the brain that conjoinly create a self and then you have consciousness. And then did we talk about qualia last time? >> Qualia. >> Qualia. >> That does sound familiar. >> Sound familiar? >> There were so many things. >> We talked about so many things, man. But qualia is an interesting one. Okay. We didn't talk about this. This is you need you need the following for for a sense of for a sense of consciousness. This is interesting. Okay. Now if I if I am a let's say I am a there's a super scientist here from the future. He's he's here. He's he's mapping my brain. He's looking at my brain and he says,"I can see all the cascades of chemicals and all this neural firings in your brain as you're about to choose between two football players and choose which you like the best, Messi or Cristiano." >> Okay, does that make sense? >> Now, he can look at my brain and by looking at my brain, he will know even before I make the decision, he will know that I'll choose Messi, >> right? >> Okay. He'll know that and then then I might be mischievous and say look look scientist before I choose Messio Cristiano show it to me on a piece of paper and the scientist will do that. He will show it to you and at that at this point you choose to choose the other one. Does that make sense? And when you do that you defy him. >> Yes. >> Does make sense? My point of my point of this thought experiments is is is free will and consciousness and free will. Do we have free will or do we not have free will? >> And there's a lot of debate about free will. >> Yeah. >> And whether we have free will, I don't think we talk about this. >> We we got this is actually some I'm glad you're bringing it up. I wanted to talk about this more but we couldn't dig into it. We didn't have enough time. what you were saying is that >> you were defining the three different ways that we can try to basically like measure for free will or something like that. And then also >> what you were saying is that >> this is where I brought it up earlier where the idea came from where you were talking about we can't totally measure time and space with consciousness in the brain such that it's hard to say whether it goes one way or another with free will. Did I say that >> we talked about? Yeah. So free will is an interesting part. So see this is when this is when sleep deprivation then starts to mess me up. I I get I get consciousness and free will wrong. >> But no, do we have free will as human? This is the question, right? Do we have free will? >> And in order to have consciousness, you need to have a free will. Arguably um arguably although many scientists do you know many scientists don't believe in free will? Did you know this? >> I've heard some scientists say it's not real. I didn't know I don't know if I would use the word many but I'd trust you to use the word a lot more than me. You're in the space. >> In the space most scientists would actually say most neuroscientists would say we have no free will. >> They would on what basis they would literally say they would point to things like the experiment I talked about last time where where if you can actually know you can look at your brain and measure the brain and even before a person consciously chooses to move his hand the brain will pick that up. They will use that perhaps and then they will look at all kinds of genetics, epigenetics, environment and say look every decision you made before you went into that bank and you shot that person was all driven by your neurochemistry how much sleep you had last night and then >> the person just was in the you know he was there but then all that chemistry, genetics, epigenetics, environment, brain circuitry inheritance from the from the parents and all that just led up to that moment and pop you killed him. So you have no free will. So that's one view. >> What I was trying to illustrate with this thought experiment is that even if you have access to the brain circuitry and activation before he makes a conscious choice, it seems like you can always defy that at the very end. And that was my point. So if you do have a choice between A and B at the very end, if somebody shows you the answer for example, you can choose to go the other way or you can choose not to go the other way and it becomes the infinite loop. Do we have a sense of conscious awareness, free will and can we choose our you know own path and I do think we do have veto power to ultimately uh make our own decision. >> I do too. I don't think we're just some some controlled robot ant in an experiment from an overlord to actually do the things that we commanded to do. Like it's a [ __ ] Sims game. >> I think so. >> And part of that might be my bias to >> not wanting life to be meaningless cuz it would feel pretty meaningless if if we knew otherwise. But I do think some things could be like pre-programmed to not necessarily happen but >> to create a cause and effect. Like if certain people are born as a psychopath, they they are >> pre-programmed to create some sort of chaos in society that will then have a butterfly effect on many other people. Now, what that butterfly effect causes, if the wave moves this way or that way and causes this thing or that thing, I think that's where free will >> comes into it. And I think that >> if we didn't have free will, we wouldn't have such an understanding of the good and the bad on so many things. Obviously there is gray area with stuff and >> you know you can have the conversation about what is all good or what is all bad and we have many times in different contexts on this podcast but >> you know there there is the light and the darkness that exists overall where people can see like ah or >> you know and if that makes sense and so I I do think free will >> plays a role in that and and I also think you know you are the the dreams expert We haven't talked a ton about dreams today, but you know, we we did get into dreams a lot last time, and there's much more to go to. You spent so much of your life on it. But I think that that the ways the way our consciousness can behave like in a format like that where we fall asleep and then this uncontrollable thing happens where we start to inject what's real, what's fake, and create these stories in our mind that's almost like attached to a separate universe. while while our body is resting and physically rebuilding itself. I think that things like that actually prove free will. I don't think that that's like, you know, some uploaded software >> that's injected into you. It's far too creative. It's far too complex. >> You know, I guess the counterargument could be, well, what is creative or complex to an entity that's all knowing that's way above you doing it to you? I guess that's possible. But there's such there's such clear beauty and chaos in the world that it just wouldn't make sense to me as a human here on earth that free will would not be a thing 100%. I think consciousness for consciousness you have to have some kind of free will and you have to have some kind of at least flexible output. So what do I mean? You look at a bee for example and it's in its dancing. It does its wiggle dance when it's um signaling to the other bees where the hive is and all that. It's it looks very complicated and complex. But would most people say a bee is is conscious? No. Why wouldn't they say a bee is conscious? They would say a bee has no flexible output. It has one singular algorithm and it will only do this all the time. >> So it's not conscious in fact. But a human being on the other hand it has a choice. It can make that cola versus Pepsi or Messi versus Ronaldo question and choose one. So we have flexible output. That's what makes us conscious. Another example would be let's take the dream world as you were talking about. You want to talk about sleep world. Let's talk about that as an example. During sleep paralysis are you conscious versus are you conscious during sleepwalking. So some people during deep sleep can wake up jolled awake. In fact they jolled awake but only so much so that they can start walking around their house. They go around they start maybe their car and start driving. This is well known on the freeway they go eyes are wide open but they're deeply asleep. This is called sleepwalking. >> Mhm. Now if you stop that sleepwalker and say look Joe Cristiano or Messi, Pepsi or Cola, Paris or London, they will not be able to choose. >> Why? The prefrontal is shut down. So they have no sense of agency and they have no sense of flexible output. That person is not conscious. We can be clear on on that definition. It's it's it's like a bee or like an >> any kind of like primitive animal with no consciousness. So that we can be clear on the definition here. This is not a conscious agent. But during sleep paralysis, in fact, the person is conscious because if I was to communicate with this person that's paralyzed and can and can and is aware of his surroundings and if I could communicate with him and in fact I can using his eyes because the eyes can move. I could actually ask him who do you prefer Pelle or Maradona? And he could move his eyes two to the left that would mean Pelle. or one to the right could be Maradona. So that would be an example of consciousness. So definitions are important and I think having flexible output being able to choose between A and B and C of course this would be an example of of of why consciousness and what consciousness is and what is consciousness and what is not conscious. So I think I think that is important. I think it's going to get really weird though >> for humanity in general when we actually can read each other's minds >> and stuff like that. I think that that could totally change the way people respond to even experiments like this because you are conscious of the fact that other people are in your head all the time. I mean, I I don't I'm not trying to get too dystopian, but as a neuroscientist who's looking at all the trends and, you know, science behind the brave new world we're entering, how close are we to >> whether it be Neuralink or whoever is going to do it, >> setting up a world where we are literally all in each other's heads all the time? >> Reading mind is is difficult difficult. But I would say what Neurolink are doing with moving like moving a screen with the brain and things like that that's actually not too difficult because you have planning and motor regions of the brain and so you could easily hook that up with an algorithm to move a cursor on a screen screen and things like that. You know to gauge what somebody else is thinking is completely different business. I think that one tantalizing finding is in the dream world. So you can you actually have studies creating movies of people's dreams. >> Creating movies of people's dreams. >> Images creating like images of what people is dreaming. So this is one way to have access to somebody else's brain. Now it's very premature. It's very early days. >> Wait. Oh wait. It's something you like plug into them that creates the imagery. >> Let me tell you. So what they do? So what they'll do is that they will have people lying in a scanner and show them images of a car, of a house, of a chair and so forth. So they have those images and they keep them. Then they show them the same items as they are awake, card, chair, so forth. So they have and they scan their brain. They have those images. Then they dream and then when they dream about and they ask them to report and then they scan their brain as they're dreaming and they report down oh in this in this dream I saw a car I saw a house I saw d and they write that down and they have the images as well then they put all that into the AI machine learning create an algorithm and then when they're dreaming and the brain is scanning their brain on they once they hit and they dream on that house they were talking out based on the images they saw they can then feed the computer and they will see they will start seeing a house of maybe a person walking maybe a and so forth so this is new stuff very few subjects I think it's from Japan but it shows that you can it's getting to the early days of being able to spit out somebody's dream and put it on putting it on a screen >> so we're going beyond just mind readading of base to ba of of basic conscious communication we're going to mind readading [ __ ] dreams >> yes It started with just being able to say what a person is dreaming about. So they were able to say, "Okay, this person is dreaming about a car. He's dreaming about based on these photos, they can take their photos when they're looking at photos and scanning their brains and so forth." They were able to say, "A person is dreaming about a car, a house, and so and like a like a chair and so on." They didn't have the specificity of saying, "Oh, this is a Ferrari versus a Honda." They didn't know that, but they just knew it was a car. But now it's gone too far as far as like they can put it on a screen and have have some of those images pop up. But of course, it's not what the person is actually dreaming about the original one, but it's a pro like a it's a proxy of that. Who knows what happens in 50 years, 100 years. It probably may have very vivid, lifelike images of your dreams on a screen. >> Oh my god, it's getting crazy out here. >> It is. It is. >> One of the things I really enjoyed about our conversation last time is how much you're also like a student of >> history. Yeah. >> With things. And I didn't really get to ask you like >> the history of of dreams and how that's how that's been reflected into our reality. And to put that in English, like >> there's so many ancient texts and stories that are told. Some are clearly more philosophical rather than literal. Others seem like they could be literal. But >> you know, >> is it possible that things like >> Here's a good example. But is it possible that something like Moses with the burning bush could just be the reflection of not even Moses's dream, but someone else's dream that that was just so warped with reality in a way that they actually thought it was real? Could that be the case? It's hard to say, right? The burning bush and all that. What happens um what happened and was it somebody else's dream? What happened? You know, it's hard to say. I can't answer that but I don't know but um looking at the history of dreams there definitely an interesting there's an interesting unfolding of patterns and so initially people would look at symbols and symbolize dreams and see them as messages from the god we talked about Joseph and Joseph's dream from the bible he's you know in the Quran and what they saw what he saw then later comes came along sigman freud and said no oh in fact dreams are the unconscious mind. You have something called the latent and the manifest content. The latent contents is is is all the symbols you're seeing jumping around in your brain. So you're seeing yourself on the moon having tea with the queen. Everything is spacey. Time pieces place places people everything is warped. >> Your brain cannot tackle these anxietyinducing objects headon. So it creates a symbol. And if you were to see them as a manifest content as they actually were, you would be jolted awake. So your brain uses these symbols. This is Freud's idea. And then you would have the person when he's awake analyzes dreams, decode them, and then by then removes remove the neurosis, the anxiety, and then in that way will heal him. In many ways, Freud, I'm not a Freudian. In fact, in fact, I don't like Freud very much, but he was ahead of his time when it comes to dreams, like knowing it's the unconscious and and there's something going on beyond just simp divine messages. >> The brain is definitely involved as we talked about at length last time. After that came along other scientists and then looking at the brain and knowing that the brain is involved and various parts of the brain turn on and off when we are dreaming. And so that's kind of roughly the the the history of of of dreams if that makes sense. >> When did we like what's the earliest where where humankind people wrote down or you know left some history of dreams where they clearly defined it as the fact that it was a dream and that you know it was just when you were asleep this is what they they thought of. >> Interesting. So it wasn't like divine messages and all that right. It's I don't know. I don't know exactly when the first time might have been. I'm inclined towards Freud in the sense of like in a major way that that that shifted societ in a major societal way where he actually >> made a like had a treaties and had like an actual >> you know argument. But there may have been other people before him that have might have you know mentioned that but they might have been burned at the stake or something for for not following the the the the paradigm of the time and the you know the thought of the time. So >> well I mean I think one of the many things Freud talks about was was the dreams of the unconscious mind also reflect like our attractions and stuff like that as well right? So what we dream >> is that do we dream about people we're attracted to that we may not even know we're attracted to or that might feel attracted to us and we didn't know it. >> It's a tricky thing here because yes he did say it's the royal road to the unconscious that unconscious mind is really bubbling away inside the dream and that is what we are seeing that it's our things that are beneath the surface. Right? He did say that. Mhm. >> But does that but does is that the is that the whole story? So when I see myself attracted to that girl at work, does it mean that I'm actually attracted to her and I'm trying to inhibit that? I don't think that's true necessarily. They because dreams don't follow in a completely logical pattern. There may be some aspects of her you are attracted to, but people will actually have see themselves being sexually engaged with family members, incest scenarios and or pedophilia or samesex. There's all kinds of bizarre things in dreams people will talk about >> that aren't reflective of how they feel. >> No. No. What? Not whatsoever. >> So, you can think of the instinctual brain being amydala and the emotional part of the brain being 30% more active and the prefrontal cortex shutting down. And then you just have this messiness of concepts created in your mind where you cannot make sense of who is person A, why am I attracted, is this somebody else I'm attracted to, is this is maybe this is the per maybe this is a a a beautiful woman's body but the head of somebody else and things you can you cannot like going into the real realm of dreams is going down the rabbit hole. So trying to analyze that and say look no I'm attracted to a person this person over here and that's why I'm dreaming about them is I think it can be dangerous. It can be very dangerous. >> What's the difference between a dream a dream >> and an illusion? >> Illusion. Okay. In dreams there are several several components to dreams. In dreams you are delusional. You have false beliefs. You think that you may be a superman and that you are living in a palace. So this is called a delusion. So you have delusions when you're dreaming. You have amnesia. So you forget your dream is amnesia. >> You have hallucinations as well. Meaning you have you have perceptual view. You have perceptual percepts that are not true. These are hallucinations. These are not happening in real life. You're not actually jumping up jump and you're not flying in real life. You have hallucinations and then you have you're temporarily psychotic as well. You have strange and bizarre scenarios unfolding. An illusion on the other hand is a something I see in real life that is not actually the case. So that's an illusion. >> I have an illusion of something. I have an illusion. I have it's a false belief but it's not a delusion but it's it's it's a belief I have of of of something that is that is turns out not to be the case maybe we can look it up the the actual definition but and delusion is obviously pathological >> definition of illusion or delusion >> yeah an illusion could be an a visual illusion something that is >> the definition of illusion is a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interp interpreted by the senses. >> Correct. So this would be an illusion. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And where whereas a delusion would be a false belief. >> The reason I'm asking cuz like in some ways it seems like an obvious answer to me. One is like when you're asleep. The other one is just when you see something wrong. But like >> I'm wonder the reason I asked the question like what's the difference between a dream a dream and an illusion is because we almost have like the safety net in my mind of just accepting the fact that well a dream is really happening. >> Yes. when you're asleep, meaning in a different state. But is it act like when we see an illusion, are we having the same, this is not the term for it, but like psychedelic aspects of the brain >> being activated that happen in a dream, but because we're awake, we just differentiate it when we really shouldn't at all. Because when we're asleep, we're still the same person with the same brain. See what I'm saying? >> No. Say that again. So I >> Yeah, that got a little that got a little convoluted at the end. When we're asleep, it's almost like we are viewing oursel as like different. We're we're not the same person because we're not here. We're not conscious at the moment. Whereas, when we're awake, >> I'm Julian. I'm looking at this camera right now. I'm trying to figure out whatever I'm trying to figure out. I'm I'm here in the moment. I'm present. >> So, with an illusion, we may look at it and we know like right now we're present and we're actually looking at this illusion. Whereas with a dream, you know, we're asleep and we forget where we are. But in reality, the aspects of the brain that tie into both, meaning like that make us notice that this is this is an illusion or make us notice that this is a dream. >> Yes. >> Are still being activated regardless of what state we're in, sleep or awake. >> Well, it's actually shuts down when we're asleep. It's so the the the part of the brain that can differentiate between real and false shuts down. And that's why you everything in the dream feels so real. That's why when you see that monster or you see that girl or you have that conversation, it feels very real. Sense of self- agency shuts down. And in fact, that's very adaptive. That's very adaptive. Why? >> Having a dream where you are running from an alligator, jumping over that stone, jumping into that river, removing that tree. What you what are you what you're doing right there? You are crystallizing circuits in the brain that that can help you survive better >> to help you survive much better. And you are training dress rehearsing for real life inside the dream if that makes sense. You make a dress rehearsal for real life in that dream. It's like virtual reality >> crystallizing the circuit making you more >> inept and and and more being able to more powerfully deal with that in real life by having the circuitry laid down in the brain. So this is really what the what the dream is all about. And then having that extra layer in the brain when sense of self- agency goes away that's really powerful because it makes it much more immersive. It feels much more real. >> So that is what a dream is all about. It's it's it's being in this scientific testing lab with no fatal consequences >> and you do not know it's a testing lab. So it feels much more immersive and real if that makes sense. >> Right. And so that's what what a dream is all about. >> Yeah. I was struggling to It's a very difficult question for me to ask. It's one of those where like I know in my head what I'm trying to say, but getting into words, people are probably like, "What the [ __ ] did he just ask right there?" Yeah. >> But the reason I was like trying to get it the illusion part is is is because like if I look at an image where they you'll see these on social media where they say, "Look at this in the middle for 10 seconds and it's going to move." >> Yeah. you suddenly see it moving. >> Yes, >> you know it's not moving, but you're suspended in belief in that moment that you're like, "Holy [ __ ] it's moving." And you kind of can't tell the difference between the two. So to me, when you talk about dreams like being a suspension from reality, I think there's it, >> you know, my non-academic opinion, I think there's a similar thing that's happening. Yeah. when you are caught in the moment of being faced with this thing that is being told to you that it's an illusion, but you actually then believe like, "Oh [ __ ] it it really is moving." You know what I mean? >> Oh, yeah. No, look, the brain obviously what it does is it does have it fills in the blanks all the time and creates, you know, it has it fills in perceptual holes all the time. An example would be an example would be for example let's say I talked about last time how you have conceptual parts of the brain how when you look at an image you can look at it from a conceptual point of view initially or you can look at it from an actual sensory point of view >> so and these two blend and then your brain makes up a decision based on both conceptual hippocampus vernicus area these meaning parts of the brain and the actual sensory raw data and then makes up. Oh, this is a table. This is this. This is that. And then if you have damage, let's say to the eye to the eye, it will fill in the blanks and it will give you all kinds of inputs and say the world looks like this, it looks like that. And the reason it does this, you have the syndrome and that is because viewing the world is a controlled hallucination. The world is not actually the world I'm seeing out there is not the actual world. It is a constructed world. It's a controlled hallucination. Is my conceptual brain, my memory centers chitchatting with my actually sensory centers and saying, "Oh, this is probably the world out there." It's making a prediction about the world. So, in other words, at any given moment, you can see the world in various ways. Let me give you an example. You know, the the the the Dalian dog, it kind of has splotches. Initially, you won't know it's a Dalmatian dog. Maybe you can look it up here, but it's like a it's it's like splashes. Maybe not, but but it has like splashes and then you see it and it becomes a dog all of a sudden. Have you seen that? >> I don't think I'm familiar with this. >> So, what is this? >> Dalmatian dog splashes. >> Oh, okay. >> Illusion. >> Dalmatian dog splashes. Illusion. Yeah. >> Oh, yes. Okay. So, you're talking about where it's like there's other illusions like this where it's like, do you see a shape? Oh, now you see a dog. And there's a perceptual click. >> Yes. >> Yeah. This would be an example. There's other what's called bstable illusion. So you look at a woman's face. At one point it looks like an old lady or it looks like a beautiful young >> Yeah. Yeah. >> chick. So it kind of flips. And that's again your brain can conceptually drive this and then once you can you can't see both either you see one or the other. Showing you how how seeing is very conceptually driven. It's driven by our conceptual views of the world. >> May I'm getting way outside my bounds right here, but I'm just I'm I'm trying to tie some of this together to like time and space and how it's odd. >> If you look at the movie Interstellar, >> yes, >> which Kip Thorne advised on and it got a lot of things according to many scientists like conceptually solid. I think there's some scientists are like, well, this couldn't happen or that couldn't happen. But there were a lot of concepts that that they seem to do a great job with. Yeah, >> the idea that they enter this Matthew McConna and the team enter this black hole and then on the other side of the black hole go to these planets such that when they >> physically go onto the planets time is changed to 20 years per >> every hour or whatever it was something like that back home >> right >> meaning that when they're done this mission where they didn't age very much they go home and earth has aged a hundred years >> or something like that >> is There a concept in them entering that black hole and then coming out on the other side onto the planets to where how do I want to this is so hard to ask to where their consciousness has been suspended such that it seems that time has not passed but time really did pass to them but on earth no consciousness was suspended so time passed and the aging process took place in a way that it doesn't take place for MCA and his team on the other side of the black hole. >> It's a great question. Um, thank God it's hard to say exactly from the that the perspective of that movie. It's very hard to say whether how that would map but consciousness time can stand still in your brain. This is an actually clear-cut example of this. This is a man called HM and his hippocampus region. He had his hippocampi, the two memories uh structures in the brain, jelly roll structures behind the ear. You have two of them on each side. And they help you take short-term memory and store it in a long-term vault in the cortex, the outer layer of the brain. Now, this poor chap back in the day, he had both his hippocampi removed. >> So, he had no he has no hippocamp hippocampus. So he's basically staying in the realm of like one or two minutes all the time and then he forgets everything else. So every time his wife appears it's like seeing her for the first time in 30 years. She has they have a conversation and he has forgotten everything. 30 minute 2 minutes has gone. She comes back and he's she's he's happy again for seeing her. And so you could sit there and you could tell him the same joke over and over and he will just laugh find it funny. You know you can he will find his wife attractive each time as if the first time he saw her and you know and and you can introduce yourself to him the whole and whole evening and he will forget you after 2 minutes and you have to reintroduce yourself. So this is an example of being stuck in time uh hm >> and his brain was like extremely wellstudied. This would be an example of how consciousness can break down, how cell like how time can can can you know unravel for for some people. >> Yeah, that's from a short circuit perspective though internally having to do with the brain organ itself. >> Do you mean time perception itself it it can expand? We talked about how time can expand in dreams for example become feel stretched out because neurons are firing more slowly in REM in in rats and that could mean that the brain time feels stretched out in dreams. I think there are some examples for like when you look at an awking thing like you look at a mountain that's just beautiful like I was recently in California and I saw this mountain and we have nothing like this in in Copenhagen for example and this beautiful mountain is stunning. Okay, I looked at that and it's shown that people when they look at awe striking things like a mountain, a beautiful tree, time expands. It feels longer. Cortisol goes down by the way as well and they become more charitable. So if you are sitting underneath a beautiful all striking tree, you become more charitable. You become more, you know, helpful. You become more kinder as a as a as a person as well. And overall time will just feel like it's stretching out. The vi the converse scenario is when you are stressed >> and the amydala is hyperactive and cortisol is through the roof and noradrenaline is through the roof. Time feels compressed. You feel like time is running out all the time. So that would be the counter example. >> What you're talking about is perception of time. >> Perception of time. Yeah. >> Is there a way that perception meets physical reality scientifically? because that's what Interstellar was trying to say. Not I mean they were talking about time dilation more than anything but what I'm wondering is that if >> the if there's if there's a way to determine that time dilation in what we're explaining scientifically is actually like a perception an illusion itself such that it feels like and then physically manifests in a way such that they don't age. >> Yeah. it and and they feel like they only spent a year up there or something, but they actually did spend 80 and there's something where the consciousness was suspended. >> Yeah. >> That like allowed them to not have that manifest physically, emotionally, or mentally. >> Yeah. >> It's I mean, it's a it's way beyond my pay grade, but I'm curious about it. >> I understand. It's it's a deep question, but I think >> in Interstellar, for example, they end up on that bizarre planet with the ice and all that. You've seen that? And and I think a few minutes there corresponds to like seven, eight years. >> I think it was every 20 minutes is like seven years or something like that. >> And then the poor chap is on the spaceship and he's been waiting waiting 30 years. You've seen that? >> 20. Yeah. 23. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So the question would be then could you do something similar for consciousness? I don't think so. Because what is happening this is actually this is actually time shrinking in a like you like or expanding or whatever it might be depending on this is physics right time space and if you are in a certain atmosphere and how you know how things rotate rotation of the planets and all that and then time will feel different but you will physically age too you will like the brain will age the body will age and could something similar happen on earth I mean you would need you would need to really be something that is more physics than neuroscience here because that would require actual aging and and and so forth of of the body and the brain. >> That's what I was thinking about a lot after our last conversation. How much your world goes right up onto the edge such that it literally goes over the cliff into physics. >> Yeah. you know, even if it's not intended to be that way, like you're a neuroscientist, you're studying an organ, the brain, and the effects it has, but then the things that you find and uncover in your various studies get right into like our physical reality. >> It does. It does. I I think you're right. And I think as we're moving more into the future and we build machine and we have machine brain interface and and you build like you have TMS machines that can scan your brain and you have ultrasound that can go deep in the brain and activate neurons deep in the brain and um you revive that neurons and things like that. It will be an interaction between physics and and engineering and and in one hand and then brain science on the other. So I think as we move along these specialized field we need to fields we need to cooperate a lot um in order to to get to you know to make advances if that makes sense. >> Hell yeah. I got a million other things I want to talk with you about but we're coming up close to three hours so I think we should cut it there. We'll have to do this again. Of course, I already knew that before you came in, but there's just like >> God, I could talk with guys like you all day because it just gets so fascinating. I appreciate you having patience with some of my questions, too, because it's very hard >> to take some of these concepts as especially as a non-scientist or something and, you know, >> express it into words and you're very patient with that. >> Well, I love it, man. Thank you for having me and and and uh if I was rambling a bit today, forgive me. you know, sleep deprivation and all that can hit you after time zones and travels and all that. This is the tail end of my travel. So, I was in California coming here, California, coming back here and then going to Copenhagen in a few hours. My bags are >> Oh, you're flying to Copenhagen from here. Nice. >> Yeah. So, >> all right. >> Well, I appreciate you fitting it in and you weren't rambling at all. Your explanations are great. There was there was some we had a wide range today. But then a lot of the stuff on Love and Attraction I mean Balon's work on that is some of the greatest since Finers. >> Oh yeah. >> You know you ever read finer before? >> No I haven't. >> Oh the 1530 method. >> Is is that >> you're a Harvard neuroscientist? You never read this? >> No. It's >> incredible stuff. I'll send you afterwards. His work in in the field of love science is >> unprecedented. Steu Finer. But anyway, >> thank you so much for being here, Balon. We'll do it again, my friend. >> Sounds great, brother. >> All right, everyone else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave, as well as leaving a like on the video. It's a huge, huge help. You can join my Patreon via the link in the description, and you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below. See you for the next episode. Eight.

SPONSORS: 1) AMENTARA: Check out https://www.amentara.com/go/JULIAN and use code JD22 for 22% off your first order JOIN PATREON FOR EARLY UNCENSORED EPISODE RELEASES: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey CLIPPERS DISCORD: https://discord.gg/8QmWEKJ3BT (***TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Baland Jalal is a Danish neuroscientist at Harvard University's Department of Psychology, whose work spans clinical neuroscience, cultural psychology, and the biology of altered state of consciousness. Originally from Denmark and of Kurdish-Iraqi descent, he is best known for his research on dreams and sleep paralysis. BALAND's LINKS: IG: https://www.instagram.com/balandjalal/# YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCumyt6mGLaVO4_N1LkAoXdA WEBSITE: https://balandjalal.com/ FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY IG: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://x.com/juliandorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP LISTEN to Julian Dorey Podcast Spotify ▶ https://open.spotify.com/show/5skaSpDzq94Kh16so3c0uz Apple ▶ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trendifier-with-julian-dorey/id1531416289 ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Jordan Peterson, Romantic Love & Serotonin, TPJ Brain 7:09 - Prefrontal Brain Element in Love, Aggression & Love, S*xual Desire, Mother Theory 16:03 - Sensory Map of Body, Eyes & Vision, Cortisol & Romance 25:23 - The Mother-Child “Attachment Theory” Experiment 32:52 - Julian’s 2 Definitions of “Love” 38:27 - Struck by “the thunderbolt,” Are Soulmates Real? 42:36 - Females “Hot & Cold” Psychology, How Men Choose Females (Evolutionarily) 52:50 - “Super Normal” Stimulus, Learning Language, Brain Hemispheres, Women Reading You 1:05:04 - Falling in love w/ “the idea” of somebody, Halo Effect, Female Context 1:12:15 - Elegance & Grace, “Tough Guy,” Beauty & The Beast, “Love is letting go” 1:22:21 - Women do NOT want to be “saved” EXPLAINED 1:33:19 - Physical Attraction & S*x, The Coolidge Effect, Dopamine, The God Helmet 1:43:13 - Deranged Self, Delusions, Robots, Human Terminators 1:53:32 - Are psychopaths born, molded or both?, The Joker in Dark Knight 2:03:49 - 2 Types of Empathy, Free Will, Consciousness 2:13:59 - Dreams PROOF Free Will exists?, Reading Minds (Telepathy), History of Dreams 2:30:56 - The Illusion of Dreams, Controlled Hallucinations, Interstellar, Neuroscience & Physics 2:43:07 - Machine Brain Interfaces, Metaphysics OTHER JDP EPISODES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: - Episode 365 - Dr. K: https://youtu.be/2aNdVmdLKfs CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 400 - Baland Jalal Music by Artlist.io