The Absurdity of Being a Human Being | Reggie Watts

We're creating our relationship to reality every nancond that we're alive. We're always creating. I think the most important thing is not to get better at creating. It's getting better at allowing yourself to view yourself as a creative entity. >> I'm just curious like how do you think people can realize the artist inside of them? >> Some people are like, I'm not good at anything or I'm not an artist and stuff like that. I'm like that's not true. There's only things that we do. You could like make a smoothie really well, not compartmentalize and say I'm good at this, not good at this. It's like, well, that's only as true as you want it to believe. These dark times are here for a reason. And those reminders are the things that keep you going. This reality is a muppet reality. Just a bunch of goofiness. It's all silly. Even if it gets really dark, it's still weird. And that's what I love. Everything turns into a game at that point. Like fighting for fun. And I think recognize yourself and others. There's a phrase that I wrote on a t-shirt, when in doubt, zoom out. Like it's that zoomed out perspective that gives us context for how ridiculous it is that you even exist in this moment right now. >> Reggie, my man. >> Hello. >> Laughter is a moment of instantaneous enlightenment. >> Heard you say that. Say more. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it's like just this kind of like realization that uh you know, like what makes people laugh and what triggers laughter and um and I just kind of realized that all humor is essentially it's uh working off of paradox. So you're setting up an expectation, you're subverting the expectation and in the annihilation of the two things um and you know the creation of all things but like the when that hits in that moment it triggers a response from people and the response is like this instantaneous awareness of you know I mean for lack of a better term like everyone's divinity or the or or what I like to call the absurdity of life and so it just kind of flashes and people react and they laugh, you know, because they're like remembering essentially. So, in that moment, I always think of it as instantaneous enlightenment and there's different levels of laughter. There's kinds of gradients, but like in general, like when people really get it and there's a big moment, it's like that feels like everyone's on exactly on the same page no matter what they think or what they believe in. And it's it's beautiful. It seems like because that's the case, you can say things through comedy you otherwise can't often, you know, and how it like laughter as the way you're describing it, like it kind of cracks the character, our ideological identities and whatnot. Um, I'm just curious your thoughts on like your journey over the years being able to and throughout like uh just the capacity comedy has to be able to see those insights and kind of push at the boundaries of people's identities. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, I mean, comedy is like a, you know, comedy specifically absurdity. I mean all comedy but absurdity for me is kind of another level in the sense that it not only unveils the well I think it unveils the true nature of reality. So whatever is being talked about, whatever the subject matter is, you're not only revealing what it is, but you're also dismantling what it is. And and and in meaning meaning that like um you are kind of like you're commenting on what it is, but then you're also reminding people that ultimately everything is nothing. And um and everything like everything is paradox essentially like reality is paradox. paradox is the engine of this reality. So, uh, you know, so you're kind of like diving into that and you're kind of like showing like not only is this cup a cup, but also this cup is made of subatomic particles that essentially are that don't exist but do exist simultaneously, you know, like that type of [ __ ] or whatever. So um so the commentary so to me absurdity like Salvador Ali and you know these kind of uh you know visual artists or video artists uh and they they kind of break apart the notion of what is reality or even AI generated video um you know there's a guy called Dupydoo um on Instagram brilliant Russian um video artist hyper surreal but like it looks all the characters look very hyper real but like super dream horror and the way that things transform and morph and things things of that nature are very um you know it's like what we see in the dream stator like dream logic and and but seeing it so crisp and so clear um is so jarring cuz it like ah this is this looks like reality but also this is in a way like how I wish reality looked in my waking life or something like that. Yeah, it's uh I'm curious to to hear more to hear more of your thoughts around absurdity, realizing the absurdity of like the human experience. Uh it feels like either through contemplation, meditation, psychedelic experience, lived experience, you kind of see the inherent paradoxical nature of life like you're speaking to. And one but can only laugh. And it also like and I feel like the more you realize how there are always many sides to one thing like the more loosely I feel like I personally hold all things. >> Yes. >> Which I think allows you to approach things with like uh being able to connect to them instead of through your ideas of them in a sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you you don't have to take things as as face value. I mean, I think the face value part of reality is like just to kind of function to get through. Like if you need to go to the store, it's like you need to, you know, use a road and, you know, get in a car and whatever or however you get there. But like um there's kind of like a functional practical nature of just like accepting things at face value. But like but ultimately when we when we really contemplate existence things like that all the things that we do take for granted then you start to reformatt and question like do I have to think of it this way or like or why do I think of it this way or you know every time someone says this or every time I see this I always think this that's an interesting that's interesting why is that you know and so I think uh questioning reality you know bumper sticker but like um you know it's it's a it's kind of like it's the bonus of being alive like you you you kind of realize you can ask these questions and that you can at any given point it's not a it's not a moment you know like last night I was talking with some friends like you know I was like you don't need to designate a time to meditate you don't need to designate a time to be thoughtful and you don't need to it's like this can happen at any time and it can and it's happening all the time so just it's up to you when you want to notice these things but the more that you do the more that you're you feel like you're awake in a dream, you know, and that feeling is incredible because then you start to you start to notice synchronicities and things start to line up and things that um you know you may have thought of many many many ages ago you know suddenly manifest and you know as it's just like reality changes in that in that as opposed to like just kind of playing it like it's on rails. >> Yeah. What do you what is the difference for you for like the insight that's gained through like self-reflection and how you can know yourself through that v versus creation cuz you're like a multi-talented artist that can feels like go into so many different arenas of human expression and super inspiring and uh and incredible and you're also somebody who I know likes to question reality and contemplate the nature of existence. So I'm just curious about your thoughts on the interplay between the two. Yeah. I mean I mean yeah it's weird. It's like you know so within you know so without you know is kind of the vibe. um you know it's like a well I mean self-realization or self-contemplation or you know functions similar to how like physics talks about you know spooky action or um you know spooky action as at a distance or um you know the fact that particles can be shar they can be completely interlin you know across millions and millions and millions of light years you know there these particles are connected independent of space and they mirror each other and that's how quantum computing functions. And so that idea is really interesting because then you're like well as I contemplate my own self and my own existence as I'm doing so it's also affecting the outside you know world all all around me because ultimately everything boils down to perception and perception there is no there's no difference between out there and in here when what you're perceiving is what you're perceiving and that is the only intersection of all the sensors that we have vision and smell and taste and you know whatever you want to add on top of that um but it's an intersection of localization of awareness you know so you're like I'm in reality in this particular place but as we go within everything changes the way that we perceive outwardly or outwardly you know as we're perceiving so I think they're they're the same they're one and the same you know it's it's uh yeah I don't really think there is a difference you know it's just like when people are like do you like music or comedy I'm Well, they're kind of both the same thing. >> I'm curious how cuz you're it's probably one of the highest compliments to say you're very hard to put in a box or define as like what you do because it's like farreaching and into so many different arenas. >> Uh but how do you describe not just what you do but like what lights you up in most in life and what you found yourself being drawn towards over the past few decades? M I mean, you know, for me it's for me it's just being playful. You know, I I'm always playing with reality, you know, playing with friends and joking and reformatting things and calling things not what they're supposed to be called. And, you know, it's just all my life, you know, I pretend I live on a starship cuz we do live on a starship, but like, you know, it's uh it's the playful nature of things. So for me like getting on stage is not really or performing or whatever it is or even recording it's I'm not really thinking of it as um now I'm doing this you know it's it's like now is is more of attention on what I'm doing but it's not really it's like you know someone shines a light on what I'm already doing you know in a sense. Um, and obviously it changes a little bit cuz I I know I'm on stage, but like uh yeah, the Yeah, it's weird. It's like it's all um yeah, I just see it from the same thing. Like I used to describe like creativity like friends would be like, I want to do dance, but I'm also into painting. And you know, and I'm like, well, why would you why would you choose between them? You know, it's like you're the creative entity with a bunch of creative tools all around you and you can rotate to any tool set. Grab them and start [ __ ] with them. You know, like it doesn't but you're the center of it. You're not like I'm only good at this and I'm only good at that. It's like you are a creative individual and certain tools resonate with you and certain tools don't. You know, certain tools that don't might in the future, but if you view yourself as the center of it, then you increase the likelihood of having access to more tools. Yeah. >> Yeah. I love the quote from Alan Watts that says uh the secret of life is to be completely engaged with what you're doing and and instead of calling it work, you realize it's play. >> Yes. >> And >> yeah, >> it feels like it's just super on point with I guess your philosophy of how you approach life and how you like live life through the philosophy of improv. I'm curious how Yeah. what your thoughts are on like how improv has changed your philosophy and the way you approach living. >> I mean, yeah, it's it's it's kind of everything, you know, improv is like cuz I I started realizing like even you know, the way you're going to get up from a chair or, you know, the you know, you like deciding to like go over and turn on a light switch or pick up a pencil or a pen or something like that. Like it's all improvisation at the end of the day even though you've done it a million times. It's like your your body whether no matter how conscious of it you are or not it's like you are still because it's because we're living in time and time moves forward and everything's different even though you know it has the appearance of doing the same thing daily it's never the same because it's time has changed you know so um you know so for me I improvisation is happening all the time so so it means that anytime I'm doing anything I can choose how I'm going to go about it, you know, whether it's opening the my car with the door handle, you know, like, oh, maybe I'm going to open it with my other hand, or I'll try getting into the car a different way, or I'll try grabbing this can in a weird way, or, you know, I'm going to throw this pencil in the air, and then I'm going to try to catch it behind my back, and then I'm going to start writing my thing, you know, whatever it is. Everything turns into a game at that point. And um and in doing so, like it just increases the fantasticness of of life. and harder to get down that way like like like I mean truly down like where you really believe you have limited options like like that. >> This is just kind of coming to me now as a as a thought like the way I'm kind of thinking of improv or like this way sort of of of living is like one there's just like a playful way to like be spontaneous in the moment and do something that's a pattern interrupt to how you've like typically done things and like the way that you do and act is tied to the way you think. Uh but then there's also like cultivating a skill so then you can get rid of the knowledge of the theory and then be in the music >> you know like the levels of learning which I'm sure you're familiar with of like starting with unconscious incompetence where like you don't even know that you don't know >> and then you have conscious incompetence. So like you know that you don't know how to tie the shoes, how to play the scale or whatever. And then you have this conscious competence where like you can do the thing but it takes conscious effort to be present with it and to really it. And then the last step is unconscious competence where you can >> completely forget about the theory and the scales that you've learned on the piano for example and then you can really like flow and have range. I'm curious how you because I know your background in studying jazz in college and your music background uh like how you think about that tension of like doing the work to then be able to throw away the theory in sense and then play from that space. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's funny. As much as I love improvisation, I'm definitely very glad that I learned classical, you know, where I was classically trained, you know, on piano and violin. And it's like I'm glad I have those things because like you know at a certain point I kind of broke off from it and I was like this isn't really working for me but um yeah I mean it's like you got to learn the structure to realize you never needed the structure in the first place you know in a way. I mean kind of but like um yeah I mean that's the thing it's like if you become really good at one thing and you get good at it to the point at which it feels like like it's a form of expression that you don't think about like speaking in a conversation it's like that fluid like you that can be applied to every single thing in your life you know like even something that you don't know how to do. there's a weird like you can kind of inhabit the um the embodiment and the resonance that you have with something else. You can actually kind of turn turn that to another thing. Not to say that like you can suddenly become a gymn a gymnast, you know, when you know you're really good at like calligraphy or something like that, but um there is like an aspect of it that can kind of accelerate your understanding of something. You know, if you come into that you're like, "Oh, no. This is how is this related to what I'm really great at?" Yeah. >> Um, and I think that that's kind of an interesting thing to to notice. But yeah, I mean, essentially the the surfing feeling that's that's I like that analogy because, you know, it's like surfing is a great analogy because it's like well, you're you're in nature and you're uh you're empathizing and sympathizing and synergizing with the forces of nature, but it's not just you. There's a device that you're on and the device is the surfboard and or whatever boogie board, whatever the [ __ ] But anyways, surfboard. You're on the surfboard and the surfboard is an idea. It's something that has that we came up with collectively a long long time ago. And you know, the Hawaiians or whoever it was, you know, it's like they were like, "Oh, if I take this stick and oh, I can stand. Oh [ __ ] I can stand on the stick." Um, it's like, "Yeah, and I can Oh, and once you're on the stick, you know, whatever the evolution of that, but the met >> I'm sure it happened just like that." >> Yeah, I'm sure it did. They're just like, "Dude," and they're just like, "Oh, that's pretty cool." They're like, "How can I do it?" Oh, no. It's kind of like this. And they're like, "Look what I I just figured." Oh, [ __ ] Now they're Oh, [ __ ] Now I'm going to start doing, you know, it's like, "This is ours." It's like, "No, it's it's ours, too." But um, you know what I mean? I mean, I'm sure it came from probably just like sharks, you know, cuz in sharks surf, you know, like there's always those pictures of like sharks like surfing, which is just crazy to me that like they're like, "Yeah, but they're just killing machines." It's like, nah, there's something in there. They like to have fun. Um, sure they're hungry all the time, but they do like to have fun. No, but you know, it's like we observe nature and then we're like, h, but I think like that idea of uh the the the experience of surfing, which is that flow state that people talk about, where some people are like, I'm not good at anything or I'm not an artist and stuff like that. I'm like, that's not true. There's like plenty of things that we do. You could like make a smoothie really well or you can make a cup of coffee really well. and that artistry and and and um awareness that goes into that. It's like again you can apply that it's scalable so you can apply that to other things in your life and and and not compartmentalize and say I'm good at this not good at this. It's like well that's only as true as you want to believe. >> So I think um yeah improvisation it's like once you experience the flow state you can start experiencing the flow state in all things. Even when you're watching people in their flow states, like when I love seeing contemporary dance, you know, and you see these dancers that have trained all of their lives and they're performing this piece choreographed by this choreographer who has a vision, you know, and like the dancers are expressing that vision and the movement that they're exper you feel like the movement, you know, it's like what why people like sports, you know, like they're they they embody the movement of what they're watching and that gives them the sense of action and drama and liberation, you or disappointment sometimes, but whatever. But you you you you kind of become it. And so that's kind of the the the flow state. It's like that's how I like to look at it. So if I'm when I'm observing something like that, I can use that. It doesn't mean I have to be good at the thing necessarily, but I can I can understand what it would feel like. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm thinking of everyone who's listening right now who some, you know, to varying degrees, I'm sure there's a spectrum of people who feel like they have the natural proclivity towards the traditional forms of of of the arts. Uh, but it's cool cuz you're you're kind of describing being an artist as like the in intention and attention you bring to something and the way you do something, not even just like what it is. So, like how I'm just curious like how do you think people can become and realize the artist inside of them and and everything they do? >> Yeah. I mean I that's one thing it's like I'm not a big fan of people compartmentalizing saying like I'm not an artist or you know it's like I'm a creative, you know, or whatever, you know, it's like capitalist terms or whatever, but like um everybody's an artist, you know, it's like we're all creative. That's all we're doing is creating, you know, even like we're creating our relationship to reality every nancond that we're alive, you know, it's like so we're always creating. And I think when you decide that you are creating, I guess you're like, now I'm creating, you know, whatever. It's like, oh, now I'm on the clock. I'm creating now. But, um, you know, yeah, for I mean, I I I really do try to encourage that in other people, you know, like when they're like, I'm not really good at this or I'm good at that. say, "Yeah, yeah, but you're a carpenter, you know, like you know, you do." It's like, "Yeah, but I'm not really I'm not sculpting or whatever." It's like, "Yeah, but you're installing cabinetry and it's like looks amazing, you know, and there's a craftsman." People are like, "Yeah, but that's a craft. It's like it's not an art." It's like, "No, that's not true, man. It's like you're creating everything. anything you're doing, anything you're making, washing the dishes, you know, and so I so I try to encourage people to maintain um a a larger awareness of what they are, you know, as opposed to just limiting it and compartmentalizing cuz again that's a capitalist mindset like I'm now I'm doing this, now I'm doing this, now I'm doing that, now I'm being creative. I've assigned time for me to be creative now, but when that's not happening, I'm not creative no now. I'm just doing my work or whatever it is, you know. But but I think like um people who are questioning their creativity are questioning whether they should spend more time creating, you know, officially. Um I I I think it's important. I think the most important thing is not to get better at creating. It's getting better at allowing yourself to view yourself as a creative entity. It's interesting because I I completely agree and it we live especially in western modern culture where the education system shapes us to sort of identify with the intellect in a way where we like live life often through our ideas of life and through like our models of real reality instead of indirect experience of reality. >> Um and like the psychological term of like top down versus bottom up processing, right? Like >> we see a bird and it's like it's a raven and like we think we know what it is and then we stop experiencing the raven. >> Yeah. Right. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh so yeah, I'm curious your thoughts on like uh to like kind of return to more of that like bottom up processing like experiencing life from a fresh place. Um you seem to do that extremely well. >> Yeah. I mean I hope so, you know. I hope so. Yeah. I don't I don't like that feeling of like knowing like I know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, like I I kind of have this weird like it rubs me the wrong way, you know? Like uh I'll definit I understand what it is, you know? But that's different than claiming absolute knowledge of it. It's like I understand. And when I'm saying I'm understanding, it's not that I understand like all all the details necessarily. It's that I I understand the feeling of the result of whatever it is that that thing produces, right? Even if it's just observing something and you're like, "What is that?" You know? So why why I'm like always like, "Oh, what is that?" You know, and I'm looking at all the things or I'm looking at the most mundane thing like a a screwdriver that I've been looking at for I've had in my toolbox for a long time. And then finally one day I just go, you know what? Let me check this out. And then you I look at the little fine print of like the company, what it's made of, and it's like, oh, and then they put like the size of the tool over here. Oh, that's cool. And then the back of it. Oh, and it's rounded. Why is it round? Oh, it's rounded because Oh, you can get Oh, this hex tool. It's like got like a little ball thing with like a missing like ring of metal. Oh, it's because you can actually loosen or tighten at an angle. It's like, oh, that's why that is. You know what I mean? Like I love doing those having those moments where I take the face value things that I'm using every day or I see every day and I just kind of stop and go actually let me actually look at that. You know the camera that you use all the time that you stare at all the time and then you just stop and you go like let me look at this thing and you're like oh [ __ ] oh I never real oh there's a thing there. You know whatever because everything in life especially that's made by humans essentially is a philosophy. People designed it a certain way for a reason. even if it's fast and cheap, like there's a function, but why do they decide to use these materials or why is it this thick or why is it this thin or whatever? So, I don't know if that answers the question, but like but but yeah, I don't know that that's the fascination that I have with trying to not take things for granted um >> is a is a is a is a huge thing that's generally on my mind like operationally. >> Yeah. Hey everyone, a quick share. If you've been listening for a while, you know one tool I've really enjoyed is red light therapy. For the past few years, I've started my mornings typically with meditation and a few days per week with red light. It's made a noticeable difference in my energy and sleep. 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I've definitely thought quite a bit about like I guess like it kind of sounds meta but like how does one get like intimate with life and instead of like we were speaking to like living through our ideas of it or our own prejudices and beliefs and infatuations and imaginations and desires of who somebody is or or what life or reality is. um >> to like be able to pay attention and have perception open up like you said instead of just the face value of what the form of the thing is to like experience more of what the essence of the thing is >> and and like the Buddhist yogic contemplative practices um have like uh kind of like a road map to be able to like deepen your levels of perception capacity and and how the depth of your ability to pay attention can glean you new insights about that which you're paying attention to. And uh it's it's cool because it's like you're going from this identity of being a material human being that is just like a happy accident that is of all these like billions of years of evolution of atoms colliding and here you are and um you're kind of like life is predestined in front of you to like realizing that you are a creative act in in and of itself like you spoke to earlier and you're like in this participation of this alive universe. and you get to engage with it in a much deeper way. Um, so I know that was just kind of a whole lot of words at you, but >> does anything kind of come up in that that thought? >> No, I mean um I think it's like you know like what was that movie? Oh, it's like a um Jimmy Stewart movie where he like he has this he experiences this whole alternate reality where he doesn't have a family and he doesn't blah blah blah. A miracle. No, not miracle. Wonderful life. >> It's a Wonderful Life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a Wonderful Life. Yeah. So, what I love about that movie or even like actually um uh A Christmas Carol like that like they have similar things where like someone experiences life outside of themselves um that is completely different than how what their life used to be. and then they see the absence of their presence or the absence of uh that life because of different choices or whatever and and but when they snap back into it and they realize oh I'm I'm here and you know I saw all these things whatever it's a very similar to like a trip you know like going on like you know 5 DMT or something like that and you're and you like get blasted you know to like close to the monad and you're like oh the awareness of awareness you know that which does not have a name you know that these types of you get close you graze is a little bit of that. And when you come back, you're like so empowered to be like, I'm taking advantage of life. I'm I'm alive. I'm, you know, it's that feeling of being alive in the dream. And then like, okay, well, now what are you going to do with this awareness like now, you know, what are you going to do? And um that excitement like that doesn't, you know, that's the thing to shoot for. It's like to to always try to remember that to like you know oftent times like when I lived in New York I'd be standing on the subway platform and I would imagine myself tripping and falling into the onto the rails you know like as the the train is approaching or someone pushing me you know last second and that's why I usually would stand by a pole or something like that. But um but I was doing that constantly. Imagine like my ankle ankle rolling off the sidewalk and me falling in and I just as a car is passing, you know. And so um but even though that's a weird exercise, it's not even an exercise. It's just something that naturally happens. But that imagining those things and then those things not happening and then you continue to be walking on the sidewalk. It created like these like micro mini, you know, Christmas carols or like micro mini yeah. It's a wonderful life or whatever. Um and or Huck Finn, you know, like experiencing, you know, pretending he was dead or whatever and then, you know, like being in the rafters and watching people celebrating his death and like, you know, whatever. Point is, you start noticing these things and you start appreciating what where you aren't and that kind of reinforces your appreciation of where you are. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever done like a death meditation? A >> death meditation? No. What is that? >> Meditate on your death essentially, you know, like guided kind of process to kind of like really like sink into what the experience will be like the moment you're you're dying. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Which you're doing in sort of your own absurdest way, tripping onto the railroads or you know. >> 100% 100%. Also like you know 5 a.m. DMT really does that. It really I mean cuz that's the closest you can get to experiencing you know a chemical rush of what happens supposedly you know when the body ceases it's like you get this flood of DMT you know and it's like boom and I think that that's the handshake that's the handoff you know it's like the energetic handoff of consciousness you know in that moment and I think you know and and also uh that would include all the dissociative trips that I've been on and been like you know experimenting with multiple different forms of dissociatives, you know, at um pretty high strengths, you know, um in the psychonaut community, you know, um you know, some of my neuroscientist friends and the sens group sensoria group and stuff like that and the centers for conscious uh or centers for what is it called? I can never remember the acronym. Anyways, it's a consciousness studies group. Um and they release papers and stuff on various things. But uh in those states it's like I I die all the time. It's like I get close to like oh I'm so close to just what if I just let go fully while I'm in this state. Would that would that would that allow for my disillusion of self like to the point at which I wouldn't come back to the the awareness of what I am right now. I don't know if that's technically possible, but it is. Well, I mean, it is possible, but it's but I don't know if it's necessary necess, you know, but it's a good it's an interesting question to get to that point when you're that inundated and so close to paradoxical thinking that you're like, what if I just went into the paradox? What if I went through the meat grinder? And in essence, like we are experiencing paradox in all kinds of forms. But all that to say that those questions are very interesting and they've been happening especially since the five DMT every dissociative experience I've had. I could take a tiny tiny amount of ketamine and suddenly I'm having one of the most insane trips imaginable and I'm around and then the weirdest thing is that someone can come up to me and be like, "Hey, do you need a screwdriver or something?" And I can just completely snap into like, "Yeah, absolutely. Let me go get it for you." I mean, it's insane. I'm like, how am I even able to be this where I'm like so deep into a a hole and then I hear someone's voice and I'm like, "Oh, okay. Let me go get, you know, get up, go get the thing, hand it to him, sit back down and go into." So it's interesting like when you become aware of the idea of losing yourself, losing the idea of who your self-consciousness through death through the body, feeling like your body, you know, feeling like anxiety, anxiety, anxiety, and you're like and and then it just goes away and you're trying, you have a vague memory of what that anxiety was, but now you're no longer there because you've kind of crossed over um to a certain degree. And I don't know it's an interesting question and I and I do love that that feeling and I know that that can be attained through meditation things like that but for me I really enjoy the experience of dissociives because they they it's just it puts me in a mind state where I'm like this is the most familiar state you know this is this is the state that I think all things are and I do feel when I'm improvising I'm there but I don't know the dissociative state is very interesting and there's so many different types of dissociives So noticing the different effects and stacking them differently yielding different um states which is the comp the state is the it's a compar well well it's a comparative engine for your awareness to the state and and so when you put yourself in something that completely scramles your idea of what anything is reality your relation to your body the relation to the objects around you the relation to the sounds around you the relation to awareness itself observing itself within within yourself within but you those types of things. I I find that absolutely it's such a beautiful game. I love it. And sometimes it's dark and gross and and sometimes it's very uncomfortable, but I'm appreciative of all of it. It's It's always weird. And that's the thing that I really love about it. Even if it gets really dark, it's still weird. And that's what I love. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> How long have you been experimenting? Uh, you know, weirdly with dissociives since I was a teenager because we used to do robbitasin which had dextroathorphan in it which is a a dissociative not really used it recreationally like in the psychonaut community people don't get DXM and do DXM it's kind of a dirty uh dissociative but as a kid you know we would drink go to the grocery store get a bunch of bottles of robbitasin drink four four to 6 ounces you know and and it was a heavy substance I mean it was a really heavy substance. And the substance really bonded us like as a group because, you know, it made us incredibly empathic when we're on the high, very kind of robot, functioning robotically and like hyper pragmatically in a super abstract way. Um, and having incredible adventures on on it. Um, and so yeah, so I didn't realize that after my robbitestin phase and then it was mostly just weed and mushrooms for a long time and and LSD and then I didn't really try anything and then then MDMA came along, you know, my later 20s and I tried that but really I only did it like three or four times and it was diminishing returns. I noticed it was diminishing every time and I was like not really that's not really my thing. Not that I was like I'll never do it, but it just like I'm not gravitated towards it to or pulled towards it. >> And then it was, you know, just those basic things for a while, just like marijuana and stints of like not doing stuff for a while and coming back to marijuana, whatever. But then when I discovered uh ketamine, which I was afraid to do for a really long time because of the stigma of like horse tranquilizer and kholes and all this stuff and then when I finally experienced it at a concert in Maine, northern Maine, um called the I think it's called the Great North or something like that. Um and then my friend's man lettuce was playing their jam band. They were like playing on the main stage and there's an artist like a big artist tent that was close to it and there was a massage therapist. I was like I'll give you a massage. I was like great. And so we started doing the massage while they went on and then a certain point before she started the massage she was like I've been experimenting with ketamine and massage experience experienced it. I was like no no no that's okay you know it's ketamine it's that's crazy. Um and then the massage was like really good. And I was like wait a minute I'm totally being offered this experience for free. It's easy you know. I was like [ __ ] it. I'll do it. So I I was like yeah I'll try it. And then I did and it was incredible like the like viewing my body as like like like a loose structure of molecules in space, you know, and like oh [ __ ] like oh I'm zooming out and then as she's like massaging I'm like zooming into the tissue where she's massaging and I'm imagining like molecules being realigned, you know, so that the tissue is like in a more healthy state and stuff like that, you know. It was so incredible. So after that, um, I kind of didn't do ketamine for a really long time until I moved to California and during the pandemic, I a friend of mine, I bought some ketamine and just sat on it for like a year cuz I was afraid to do it again. And then I started doing it and then had like more incredible journeys and insights and I wanted to share it with friends. So friends would come over and I'd do one-on- ones with them and we'd lay on my bed and listen to cool minimalist music or whatever. Marion, you know, music for airports, whatever. And and that and that was kind of like that began my reignited my kind of fascination with it. And then yeah, so now I'm here. >> Yeah. Here you are. >> I'm still >> there's a few things that that definitely came up uh with anyone who's kind of gone more a bit of the psychonautic route where they Through these altered states of consciousness is you have these experiences which give you like a reference point a possibility of like a way of being uh this like subjective experience of like of what it's like to put down the psychological baggage that you normally carry around in your life. And like like the way that you described it was like it's kind of like a remembering it's to your natural state of what it's like to be you without all the extra stuff. Mhm. >> Um >> I'm curious how I suppose successfully you've integrated sort of the distinction in your day-to-day life of the observer and the experience because no matter how many experiences you have and how many so to speak rides and trips you go on coming back into sober waking consciousness to be able to integrate it and embody the experience in a way where you maintain that continuity of awareness >> where there's like >> there's the the content of your experience is placed in a larger context of awareness. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> And being able to experience that more and more in my personal experience like everybody has their own journey with it. I have a lot of friends who are, you know, definitely more experimenting more on the psychedelic path. Um, and I've dabbled in the past. Um, just was curious what all the hype was about. >> Oh, yeah. Uhhuh. Of course. But like at a certain point in my personal journey was like I actually don't need another experience to know that that there's that that that there's a there there >> um and the real work becomes to like actually integrate what I know because there's like there's like always this balance of like awareness and integration. And I feel like >> if we're honest with oursel we usually have the awareness that we need to to to like move progress and grow internally. Mhm. >> Uh um and it's like the integration that most of us tend to need more. So I'm curious what is your thought process around like the integration and embodiment of the expanded awarenesses. M yeah I I've actually gone I've gone pretty deep about it where you know cuz I really love drugs and um and yeah I really love it because it gets me it gets me to deeper places even socially you know when someone who is you know like I met this guy named Jack Aaloca who's one of the most measured psychonauts he is crazy successful like written programs for like data mining for medical research and um works with the University of Melbourne and has a has a position there, a PhD um uh working on essentially consciousness studies. And um this guy's insane. He's like held his breath underwater for 20 minutes. It's like a video of him. He thinks it's Well, I think it is funny, but like he's like >> oxygen assisted. >> Yeah. A lot of training. A lot of training. A lot of training. Um but yeah, so he's he's managed or no, he's done um I think he's done like within 15 minutes. There was another guy, Brandon, who uh has a longevity institute in um Las Vegas when I went to the Sensoria. It's a essentially it's a let's call it a wizard meetup but it's sensor is like a consortium of uh neuroscientists and psychonauts that meet in outside of Porto um Portugal um on a this kind of resort space and then they give talks about like the current state of neuroscience and pharm psychopharmarmacology and dealing with like tribal indigenous medicines all the way to new synthesized compounds and then there's an apothecary and you go through like a a a psyche val and a healthy bell. It's it's loose, you know, it's not like super super but it's honest and and you present this information. So, they have that there's a whole system, but you can go to the apothecariat in the evening and you can ask for 200 milligs of methylin and blah blah blah blah format and blah blah blah blah uh mixer or whatever it is and you can like create these stacks and then they note all the amounts that you take. So, you'll have a record of everything that you've taken at different times and then you can see the compounds list and see your different stacks and you know go about that way. Psychonautics is an interesting practice because um for a long time I was like, "Oh, I'm just a drug user, you know, like or I love drugs." But I've never thought of myself as like I use drugs or I'm a drug user. I I like drugs. I like drugs because um a lot of people are afraid of them. And everything in life is a drug. Life is the drug, you know, and drugs are not outside of life. life, drugs, whether whatever it is, that's all made of the same materials and all the same molecules as everything in the universe. So, it's not something outside of yourself. The viewpoint because of again capitalism, it's like, oh, this is an extra thing that's added that makes you feel a certain way. And that's not the real thing. It's just a thing that you're experiencing that it's making you experience. And once you're off of it, now you're now you're you again. It's like that's not true. You were you the entire time. So it depends on what resonates with your consciousness and your awareness. Um so I never really had the natural tendency of placing limitations on what that is. However, I did have the stigma in my mind of like oh maybe cuz you know my friend he does like kundalini blah blah. It's like he's better than I am because I was like no that's [ __ ] It's like my level of awareness um is no different that it's all this all the roads lead to the same place which is perception awareness of self. So for me, I had to actually go through a lot of training and this was uh not training but observation and conversation and dialogue with within myself about like am I just using this stuff just to is this byp spiritual bypassing am I like and then I was like I just kind of arrived as like no that's [ __ ] It's like it's all just as valid. And for me, I for him like being underwater for 15 minutes or whatever or he and I doing a crazy stack of compounds and then just like suddenly within the geodessic dome because it's always a geodessic dome but like we're in the geodessic dome and like I turned towards him and we kind of hold hands for a second and then we kept holding hands and we looked in each other's eyes and we just looked at each other's eyes for about someone I think someone timed it. It was like roughly 23 minutes. Never stopped. We didn't prepare for this. It just happened. I I think I blinked once. It was like tears were just streaming down. Not from sadness or anything. It's just because my eyes were open. My eyes were like, "You need moisture. What's going on?" But um I was like And we went through eras. We were like staring into each other's eyes and like the the eye stayed the same. The point stayed the same, but everything around it was changing and we were like in eras and things of that nature. And I was like, "Well, I'm not like going to come out of that and go like, well, that drug experience was great." It's like, no, I experienced that. The observer experienced that. It was just another state. So whether you are white river rafting, whether you're hanging by your skin, uh, you know, uh, in a Native American tradition, or you're in a sweat lodge, or you're sewing, or you're knitting, or you're getting into some kind of a hypnotic state from driving on a track in a fast car, or whatever it is, it's all the same [ __ ] And so, um, so for me, I don't compartmentalize. Like, I don't I don't prioritize. I think the relationship to drugs because of the stigma and stuff like that that creates issues and I think drugs make you put you in a state that reminds you of a way of being >> that people may misinterpret as the drug being the cause of that. Um certainly it is the revelator to that but it reveals that but I think the mistake is when people are like no heroin makes me feel like this or cocaine makes me feel more social and I feel like I have energy and when you rely on that mechanism I think that that's a problem because now you're not you're not giving your awareness and your consciousness credit for the experience. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think for most people the line between psychonautic self inquiry and dependence on heightened state of experiences can be very blurry. >> Um, I do push back on the notion that it's kind of all the same [ __ ] I understand that like there's multiple ways to to have a transpersonal experience, but what comes alongside each experience does differ. Whether it's an exogenous chemical or through a holotropic breath work, there's a different physi physiological cascade of hormones and chemicals that change after the experience alongside the experience. Um, and I think a helpful framework for me was Ken Wilbur's like breakdown of the states of consciousness versus the stages of consciousness. >> Like the stage of consciousness is kind of what we are are at. Like that's our homeostasis which slowly raises over time as we grow. Mhm. >> Ideally >> the state can come through any stage through an exogenous chemical through holotropic breath work or meditative journey or through a big surfing a big way or whatever you know the flow state experiences. Um so yeah I definitely do have I think it is important to note that there is a big distinction between them all and it can be very >> well in what way what's what's different about it? Well, I mean, pick any two things. There's So, I mean, I think there depending on what experience or example, what what drug you're taking is different in the quality of the experience. So, dissociative is obviously going to be a lot different than a heart opener, you know. >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. >> Um, I think many different things can give you what you're referring to as this similar thing is like experience of your true self, like a lack of self-consciousness, um, a state and sense of freedom. I think they all can have different textures to them, but the comedown and the aftermath and the integration of psychedelic experiences do differ from indogenously created ones. >> Yeah. I mean they do and they don't like they do in that the hard reality practical functionality of things. So if we observe the stages of things or uh the stages or the different or the changing of states or the what do you call it like the return to stasis or whatever um or even going into exalted states and things like that. Um I think that they are as different as you perceive them to be different. But for me I've I don't really think there's a difference ultimately. And what I mean by that is like and it's not to discount what you're saying. I believe that is a way of viewing it. But ultimately it just comes down to experience. You are the experiencer and that is beyond the mechanis the me the mechanistic decided collective reality that we live in. So of course there's going to be like if I pick this up and there's a drug in it. I'm not on the drug yet. But as soon as I oh it's in my system now all of these and then we can measure the chemicals and like everything that happens all this stuff. But ultimately it doesn't really matter because the intersection the place that you arrive at is always it's the it's the awareness right it's the observer and the experiencer. So the experiencer basically drugs or experiences whether you're going on a long walk or a hike or you have a near-death experience cuz you almost fall off a thing or whatever. All these things are like there's always something that's with you your entire life. You are observing yourself your entire life. you were always with yourself the entire life and that is the collective awareness. it is uh the monad you know essentially and so uh so in that in that essence when you arrive at that place doesn't matter what experience you're having you are in touch with that which never changes which is always the same and doesn't exist but always exists and so that is what I kind of mean by that I think that you are correct in that your obs your observation of self as states are transitioning and things like that and if you view it as like oh I just took mushrooms or I just took DMT and blah blah blah blah blah now it's like integration all this stuff but for me it's like I don't I I just don't discern between systems or structures and things like that my awareness is always my awareness in any state I go through so for me the drugs it's like what method works for you so for me the drugs are maintaining my awareness and within the storm of whatever it is I'm on so like for instance the thing I like to practice I'm like on a stack of various things and my friends are like terrify or whatever. And I'm just like, "No, no, it's fine because you are the center of experience. You are the eye of the hurricane. If you if you believe that you are in the storm, then you'll be thrown about the storm. But if you realize that you are observing yourself within the storm, now you're at the center of the storm." All that to say, like I have this game that I'll be like, "Let me do a impression of a normal person." So I'm like heavy in a khole or something like that. But um and my friends are like totally there too. And I'll be like, "Watch this. I'm going to do an impression of a normal person." And then I just like get up and I grab a cup and I'm like, "Do you guys need anything? Do you want to um you know, cuz I think Jony's coming over a little bit later and blah blah blah blah blah." And what I realized like the humor of constantly, well, not constantly, but being aware of yourself in these ridiculous situations. And again, I have friends that do science silent retreat meditations, all this stuff. I I love all of it, but like for me, I'm just like it's like I just don't there's no difference in anything whether it's a drug state or whatever. And I think that that's the fun thing because I don't know. It's just I just find it fun. And also that's what music is. It's like music's the same thing. You produce you get to the same place. It's like whether you're on a drug or not a drug. I have a friend who's like straight edge. He hangs with us when we're doing like heavy dissociives. No difference in quality of conversation whatsoever. He he doesn't even see it. It's amazing. And so I'm like, we're on we're at different states right now and we're having completely normal conversations and I'm not like it's like because I practice not having the effects of the drug affect me that way. So, but that's my practice. So, um, everyone's going to be different. No one's going to rock some a heavy load of dissociatives and then and then be like, "That was great." You know, they they'll be like, "That was terrifying and I never want to do that again." And I'm like, I I get it. I get it. And that's not for you and that's fine. But like whether I didn't have drugs and I was just on my own or whether I'm on drugs, again, for me, no difference whatsoever. Unless we're comparing it to hardened reality, structural rules of perception. And that's different. >> I'm curious what you've sort of brought back down to earth with you from these experiences and how you carry out your day-to-day life. Like what have you learned about how often we try to control reality >> and the anxiety producing effects of that? Cuz I mean there's been some incredible mental health studies in in the psychotherrapeutic setting with with ketamine or MDMA or >> assisted um therapy with with psychedelics and and mushrooms. Uh, and as somebody who's been dabbling for a while yourself, >> like how have you come to understand anxiety solvents and remedies for anxiety and our sort of mind's tendency to control reality before we like experience it through our body in a way? >> Yeah. I mean, you know, anxiety, you know, is a fear-based state and fear essentially, it simply connects to our fear of death, of not being in this life in this way anymore. And that's what creates all the spectrum of anxiety, uncertainty, you know, these types of things. But anxiety is one that's, you know, very real and it can take over and it's it's crippling and uh cause you to self-limit in a way that might not be the best for you yourself or whatever. And you kind of know it, too. That's what the anxiety is. It's like there's kind of a you're you're in a battle between uh death and knowing that death doesn't exist. And so um so anxiety is like this kind of awareness um that it's it's a challenge to awareness to either succumb to it or to learn how to unweave that really tight knot. You know, start to get some space on that knot and and undo it. And you know different states again this could be meditation but you know I find that with ketamine assisted um therapy you know many of the doctors that I know that they that employ that method they're you know people are getting over issues like hyper quickly and I think the re and it stick and it sticks and the reason why and they may not do it again they have three sessions and they may not do it again and they only lightly relapse I guess if you want to call it relapse but or or never do it again. There was a couple there was a friend of mine that had postpartum depression. Never did psychedelics at all. Had a really terrible time with postpartum. And um I was talking to her about ketamine assisted therapy before her birth or giving birth. And um uh and then I saw her at a party again like a year later and she's like and I don't think she did it because of me. I think she was researching and then her doctor kind of suggested it. But she tried ketamine assisted therapy and within two sessions she was completely back in alignment with herself again. And the reason why is because it goes into a deep diagnostic mode. I call it the infiliminal. It's an infinite liinal state. It's the hallways between the rooms. And so we shift into the hallways and we become aware that everything is connected to these hallways and that the rooms are not the total reality. And so that's a cool quick reminder. Sometimes it's all it takes. The brain needs to be reminded that we have options. There are things there are things that are that we hold tight and true and uh to be concrete, but they are only as concrete as we wish them to be. And so the the hallway loosens us. But also I would say um you know the things that I bring back from those states is that the that my state is the constant and that it's not the experiences that shape the state. It's the experiences that challenge the state. And so meaning the identity that we have within ourselves, the idea of who we are as we move through the world is held really by the exterior environment. It's like nature nurture, right? It's like you got this blueprint when you're born. It's like you have a magnetic signature. It's a alignment of planets and gravitational bodies that are very unique at that moment when you're born. It's like snap. It's like a flash of photography. Like boom, there's your fingerprint. And then you've got uh you know then you've got the environment around you that you're growing up in with the template that you have. So you have personality template tendencies and stuff like that. You have epigenetics and all that stuff. So there's like these things that are localizing your identity. And but as we move through life the realization is that we never were any of those things that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself infinitely and that this is just an exercise in consciousness to exercise. um you know the idea of being conscious in the celebration of being alive and like what are the challenges no matter how dark it gets no matter like you know uh war or like you know someone harms your family or someone but you know whatever it is or you lose your job or you know all of these things they're all like okay what how you going to deal with this is essentially and then the thing on top of that is humor and and humor and absurdity that's where I think when you you asked a question about like I think like something about like how I've how it's changed maybe throughout my life as I've been growing up or whatever. I I say that's the constant. The constant is that this reality is a muppet reality. It's it's just a bunch of goofiness. It's all silly. Even in the face of the darkest [ __ ] like I've had like experiences with police and stuff like that. And um you know, I I wrote this quote. It's probably not mine, but I I wrote I just said like recognize yourself and others. And so that's what I'm looking for. that that's why things are funny because I'm like recognize my myself in that situation and how ridiculous that would be, you know, and so um the humor is kind of like the overarching. So, when it comes to anxiety and I have friends that are like suffering from anxiety, I try not to be like teachery or instructor because I have I hang out with a lot of younger people and I'm 53 now and so like I have younger friends and I'm trying not to be prescriptive and being like where once you get to my you know it's not that but I am giving them reflective tools. I'm I'm saying here's something to think about. And um and the thing that you know there's a phrase that I I wrote on a t-shirt one made t-shirt said when in doubt zoom out. Like you know it's that zoomed out perspective that um that gives us that gives us context for how ridiculous it is that you even exist in this moment right now. That you have the clothing that you have right now. That you have the friends that you have right now. That you remember where you came from or that you remember anything at all. you know, that appreciation and the goofiness of that, you know, the duality, the dichotomy of like I'm a I'm a being and I've got this and my and I owe taxes and I'm in debt and I blow, you know, but then you kind of zoom out and you're like the fact that you're even able to be here at all having those experiences is [ __ ] stupid. So, so for me that's kind of like the consistency throughout my life is that I find almost everything no matter how tragic it is on a certain level and I'm not like dismissing the weight of it or the pain of it. That's not it at all. It's a divine loving humor where I'm like, "Yeah, that's really shitty, but ultimately it doesn't really matter. It it it does matter, but it's not it doesn't matter to throw it away. It's I'm just saying like it doesn't ultimately matter because you are consciousness. You are part of the collective consciousness and you're remembering. We're actively trying to remember ourselves. So anyways, that [ __ ] >> when you've zoomed out like that, have you have you come to like your own understanding of like kind of what this life is about? Cuz you see the absurdity of it, >> but you also kind of see like >> Yeah, I'll just stop there. What what what comes to mind? >> Yeah. No, that's a great question. Um yeah, I mean it's like yeah the idea of like the meaning of life like what why are we here you know but I really think it's it's so basic and it's so hard to for us to believe which is that it is just we're just we're just doing this ourselves. This is a collective all of consciousness all the permutations of possibilities of realities. It's like we're localized to this one experience, but we but we are all collectively co-projecting and deciding and agreeing on this reality. Even like the the the shittiest stuff that you can imagine, the shittiest things that people have done all throughout history, all that will be done in the future and all the joy that's happening, all this stuff. It's like it's just the celebration of doing it, you know? And we do it within our lives, right? It's like, why are you why are you guys doing this dumb thing over here? It's like, oh, cuz we just want to. That's what it is. It's always been that, you know, and so that's why like in experiences even meditation is a is a great one like uh you know where you finally break through and you have this like you know this this like it it kind of like you let go and you're not holding but you're not projecting you know it's like you're no you know and you get that perfect zone where it like all unlocks and unveils and you have this I'm observing non-judgmentally when you're in that when you're in that state uh you know you know it all it's crazy but then like when you return to the awareness of self and like well I got to be at Sarah's at 7:30 you know what all that stuff it kind of feels like it goes away and it never really does I mean all you know I said that this to my friend who was having like a almost having a nervous breakdown before she went to and I and it actually helped her which I was like I was like oh that's great but she I was just like all states exist uh simultaneously infinitely and for whatever reason that gave her this expans expensive reminder and she went on stage and was like and I was like you're going to perform on stage thousands of more times why is this any different you know and and that's the that's the vibe you know but I think like why are we doing it because we can do it I don't think you know people are like but why this particular you know why you know I don't think it's that complicated I think it really is as simple as like consciousness just wants to do this and we are consciousness we're not separate from it feels like we are because that's the game. The game is to be like, oh, we live in a dual reality. Things are good, things are bad. Ones and zeros, you know, whatever. This exists here. Why does it exist here? Because it doesn't exist over there. You know, like the whole mechanism of and then like the the drama, you know, of life or like uh I think once on stage I said conflict is the engine of reality. It's like conflict is and drama. Those are the things that make us feel in reality. It's like, oh, I'm sad this person [ __ ] me over. [ __ ] you know, or like I got the thing that I always, you know, like all these things are like, yeah, we're constantly fighting against not feeling uh, you know, like that's what we're doing. That's the battle is to stay up here. It's like, well, not not really. It is and it isn't, right? But if you know that when you go high, you know that there's going to be a low, then that's something to be aware of. How do you balance the understanding of that perspective where like this is an illusion of separation? Consciousness is playing. duality and attachment is the system and how we're learning. It's all an illusion. It's the illusion we're here to play with like the deep pain of humanity. And yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, yes. Yeah. I'm glad you asked because it's super simple. No. Um I I mean, I think about that all the time, especially when I go in my my my deep trips. I'm always going into these like awareness, you know, the tight awareness loops that we kind of have that are part of our identity. like you know like noticing like why do I do that when I you know I drop something or whatever and I'm always like kind of admonish myself or whatever you know it's like a should know I shouldn't have grabbed it better you know whatever it is and like analyzing these like little tight loops but which kind of leads to this idea of like well what about the suffering and the pain cuz that's always a that's a tough one cuz I mean and even if you go in the traditional religious outlook of like why would God an all everloving God have pow how pain and suffer you and um and if you go into that one it's like yeah you're not really going to find a good answer for that one but you know cuz then the arrival is just like because that is God and God is mysterious you know it's like yeah that's true you can believe that it's fine yeah totally that's that's totally true but as with paradox everything is true and ultimately untrue but I would say like the I think that the pain and suffering is the challenge to understanding that that is not necessarily necessary it is just the antithesis of being in a dualistic a binary reality. That's the design of this reality. So there has to be something there has to be misery and pain and suffering doesn't and I'm saying has to it's like loosely but like it's the design of the system to have that so that we have the recognition of what is the antithesis of that like oh kindness and joy and um community and uh uh seeing oneself and others and us being in solidarity and community with one another and we're rising and we're not trying to take advantage of the fact that we're alive cuz generally like the idea of like evil and things of that that nature are essentially it's awareness but like kind of gone in the it's like awareness gone wild you know like it's it's awareness of like you know that idea that I was talking about like the uh it's a wonderful life you know that realization of like everything that you might have lost but now you're like that didn't happen and now you can you have this leis it's kind of like there's an antithesis version of that which is like I'm awake in this life how can I take advantage of those that are not and um and that's an interesting thing you know it's like the Persians call it Aruman, you know, it's like the it's the cold calculated intelligence, you know, it's like it just is the calculator of consciousness essentially or awareness like being conscious. And so all of that to say, uh, I don't like it, you know? It's like that like but I also am not as judgmental as I used to be about it where I would be like, "Fuck these guys for doing this, you know." F it's like, yeah, I would rather you guys not do that and because we don't need to be doing that, you know, and that's really kind of where it comes. So now it's turned into annoyance with someone who's taking advantage of people or not or not or trying to fool people or just like not not being I'm I'm just like if you want power then why not just say you want the power? Why create all this obfuscation and try to get people to like be untrust, you know, don't trust the reality that you're in and like send all these like divisional messages to like and like why all the fireworks? Just like say what you want like stop [ __ ] around, you know, and stop [ __ ] around with everybody else cuz like but at the same time we're all deciding that that's what it is, right? Like so so if if if there's a lot of misery and there's things going on like for instance like even like that stuff that's happening with ICE in Minnesota. It's like you kind of see what's happening and you see why it's happening and you see what's doing but then people are reacting differently. Some people are uh are physically resisting. Some people are continuing to you know tell people tell these [ __ ] whatever to like get the [ __ ] out your [ __ ] get out all that stuff. But for me, I'm like uh it's like the perpetuation of that is what that what that style of interaction is wanting. So it wants people to physically altercate because then that justifies its existence and that's the only way it can exist because it it barely has existence in mind. The only thing it has is the you know material force is the only thing that it has. And again that's the interplay of like it's playing off of people's fear of death. And so they're like we're going to threaten your life. we're going to threaten your well-being and you're like yeah well I don't want to lose that you know but then when you have but the problem is when people have the awareness of that like that can never be lost that I am infinite perception and you can imprison me and I will still have access to all the freedom of thought that I have you can limit my body but my if I have an awareness that conf consciousness is infinite perception is infinite I can reformat my my reality any way I want to you can like hear that from uh P's stories you know like when they're in prison they're How did you survive? It's like, I just changed my association to reality, you know? And when people who seek material force are uh aware of that, it's so frustrating to them. They're like, I have no power over you. It's like, yeah, you never did. Yeah, that's the problem. And it's like, and but they'll try their best to like remind you that no, there's you're going to lose something. You know, it's like we're going to whatever imprison your family, we're going to blah blah blah blah blah. And you're like, yeah, you can. I mean I don't want you to do that but at the same time at the end of the day the day if this isn't because I believe so I say if but it's like old language but like this is an exercise of consciousness it's not again not bypassing but you're like this is what's happening right now this is the challenge to my consciousness in this moment how do I react to this how do I relate to the people around me the perpetrators or the people who are victims how do I relate to all of them and if it's and what I always say like I have this thing I just end with and know I'm almost over but like uh it's uh may love guide us you know and so I don't know if you're familiar with uh information physics or digital physics like the it's kind of a newer theoretical school of physics but it basically states that the the the base state of reality is raw information pure information and that uh uh contrary to uh classical physics where entropy is kind of the the thing that it's like the sta stasis is that things want to break down into chaos essentially. But in information uh theory, raw information seeks coherence. So it always, >> you know, it's like crystals, you know, right? Like crystals just form. It's a form of coherence. It's informationational coherence. So, so the idea of that consciousness, awareness, all these things arise from this pure field of essentially what I would call paradox, you know, it it arises from that and it creates structure. So, it seeks coherence. And for me, um, you know, I got into this argument. It was really interesting with some interesting people, but they were talking about, um, they were they were they were like, uh, having a discussion debating compassion and empathy, which I was like, oh, that's interesting. Like those aren't really debatable things really in my perspective. But I, you know, I was interested, so I had the conversation. But what I said is that um I was like it's all if you're guided by love um it seeks coherence it and coherence meaning resonance, harmony, sympathy, empathy, all of those things arise naturally when you're in service of love. Meaning you relinquish yourself to the idea of love being all. And uh and in doing so it seeks coherence. So that way you start gravitating to other things in the world that resonate on that frequency and you start noticing that reality around you starts resonating and all these things. And so but they were like they didn't qu they couldn't quite understand that idea and they thought that it was like oh love like you know like love is a quantity of a thing or it's a concept of a thing. It's a thing that appears when conditions occur like it's conditional instead of no love is the best base state of reality and and love is not good or bad. It's paradoxical. It is all things and it is no things. So in my view and so um all that to say that um the coherence part of it is is interesting because then I I know it to be true because I experience it continually. So, as I say that I'm in service of love and that's why like in comments when people are being negative or whatever I'm just like if you're not in service of love you don't really have much um and sometimes people they usually don't respond back which is kind of interesting but um or sometimes they'll be like ah yeah maybe you're right you know we'll get into then we'll get into this discussion and be like oh yeah there there you are okay now let's have a discussion long-winded but but uh that's hopefully that answers something. >> That was great, dude. I loved I loved just sitting and being a listener of >> Yeah. Okay. Thanks for hanging in there. >> No, that was great. I It's It's a complex and from a level of understanding can be also simple understanding. Uh yeah, I thought of many things when you were sharing like the fundamental disposition to being like oriented towards service to self or service to others. um I think is like they kind of put you on two fundamental paths. One is like the arrow the causal arrow of time of entropy which you like things inherently move towards chaos versus cropy or negropy where things have emergent complexity and coherence as they evolve over time which is like two ways of of being and I strive like I think probably you do and most of our listeners for the latter. Um there's something interesting about uh in the study of what like wisdom is from a psychological perspective. One aspect of it which I think you'll like is called perspectival metacognition. >> So the ability to take on multiple perspectives at once. >> Uh a physicist I think it was Neils Boore or or David Bow one of those uh said the opposite of a fact is a falsehood but the opposite of a profound truth may very well be another profound truth. M. >> Oh, I like that. >> I think that really gets to the heart of of what you're speaking to, like from one level and experiencing like you can experience the deep pain of humanity and separation and division and what it's like to be undivided and have empathy for that. And from another level of understanding, you can see how it's comp like reality is completely whole. It is is singular and and perfect from that understanding in that state. And to be wise would be to to honor both as realities, you know, to like see the the the perfection and to see the the re the reality of the of the separation. >> Yes. >> Um so yes, I agree. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For for sure. You know, because you know, it's like um I I love the analogy of a a holographic plate. You may have heard of it, but uh you know if you have a h old school holographic plate um and you know it's like you do this and it's like oh there's something in there you know and you snap it in half and then you snap one of the halves and start snapping it into smaller pieces. any piece you pick up can still contains the whole image. And I love that because that is a great metaphor for humanity, you know? I mean, ultimately it's like more than that, but if we're just talking about humanity, it's like every person is this tiny irregular-shaped piece, but it all contains the whole always. And um and I love that. And that's why like I I I always give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Like I always just assume that this person's my friend. Even if they're an [ __ ] I'm still looking for the friend part. Um and um you know and everyone contains the full perspective of everything but the peace is determined again by environment and all of those things. So um but to hold both things as true and untrue ultimately like infinitely all things it uh again my interpretation but like I think that's so healthy because some people think of it as like oh you're bypassing and it's just like it's just not it's not that you're you're allowing someone if someone's like well the we never landed on the moon and and instead of me going like well pretty sure we went there you know um and you know I I know an astronaut that went there, you know, whatever it is. Um, I instead now I'm like, "No, you're 100% correct and you're also 100% incorrect. Everyone is correct and and not correct." So, it depends on coherence, resonance, collective uh um yeah, it's like a it's like a you know, it's like a it's a it's a co-projection thing, you know. It's like like I I just kind of go like, "Yeah, that's true, but also not true." And and and in that in that way I'm like that the person is right and I can like really agree with that. Like >> what is the utility in agreeing with something you fundamentally think is actually incorrect? >> Well that's yeah it's a good question. I I think it's um I think what it does is it it gets you off the hook for being judgmental. >> But is that why you're doing it? >> Um yeah because I don't like the I don't like the feeling of like going ah no that guy's [ __ ] crazy. you know, I don't like that. >> Is there a third option? >> Is there a third option? Um, >> instead of I I suppose agreeing with what you very well may think is an illusion, which could be your own um or judging somebody for having an opinion. Uh >> like uh yeah, I'm just I guess I'm just questioning the >> why why it's useful to agree with someone's delusion. >> Right. Right. Right. I think where you arrive at for your personal understanding of the situation is the important part, right? >> But you can still have that. That's the thing. If I go like you just said that all cheese is made of uh rocks, you know, it's like, well, pretty sure that's not true. But at the same time, I'll give you that. Be like, yeah, 100% that's totally true. Because I mean, if you think about the observer effect, right? It's like Schroinger's cat, classic, whatever. um you've got this cat. No one knows if it's alive or dead, but we presume it's alive. It was put in alive. And we introduced tons of toxic radiation or toxic environment. And then we're like, well, we know that that cat's dead. And we're like, uh, do we though? Cuz I haven't seen it, you know, and then you open the box and like probably it's dead. But the only time it's dead is when you observe that it's dead. So in in essence, it's similar mechanism. So like if someone's like says something that you're like that's definitely not true in my experience, I'll give you that. I think like I'll say that it is true because it is a possibility of that being true because in order for a possibility to exist, all possibilities must exist. So >> yeah, I guess it depends how zoomed out are you. Are you are you thinking we live in a multiverse where all timelines are possible? And from that perspective, whatever you're saying could be true, then great, whatever. And I think at the very least, like >> there's also this pattern interrupt when somebody's used to being met with resistance instead of you just like you just like look the same way they are. You're like, "Yeah, okay." Yeah, totally. >> Like invites you in to have an actual discussion which can actually make progress. >> So, so I think there's there's definitely value there, >> but you still arrive back at your own, you know, it's like it doesn't change your understanding of it. You know what I mean? So, I'm saying like there's you don't lose anything in that equation is what I'm saying. But I understand also, you know, the push back. I I I get that. You're like, how is that useful? But for me, it's just like, oh yeah, sure. That's not how I see it, but all right, cool. You know, but you know what I mean? And that's cool because then I'm not like, dude, that guy is so dumb. are like >> I don't think you can ever understand something and judge it at the same time. So like I try to bring that into as many encounters and you know conversations as possible because then you're just open to actually meeting somebody where they're at instead of their ideas of who they are, what they are. >> Yes. >> Um >> Yes. >> And that's love. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's building community. Like I know that you've spoken a lot to comedy as community and building community in general, the importance of it. I see you as somebody who's inherently pretty independent, but like your work is very relational and uh community oriented. And so I'm just curious what Yeah. Do you have any thoughts on the necessity of communication or sorry the necessity of community? And you referenced earlier that like love is essentially recognizing self as other and through community and the reflection in the mirrors of other people we get to like learn so much about oursel and show up and and so yeah what are your thoughts on the importance of community especially in a time where it seems like we're so divided. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. Community is so incredibly important because it doesn't matter how many profound revelations you come into in your self-practice. Having the world around you uh reflect or demonstrate those revelations that you have is incredibly reinforcing, but it also just eases just it just makes life a little bit easier. You know, like you're you're you have a community that reflects your values. you have a community that you respect everybody's journey, but you all agree that like we're going to we're going to try our best to to respect one another and to try not to become too tribal, you know, at least in my community or whatever. It's like I'm always like we don't want to get too tribal. We don't want to like close ourselves off and say that we're this because we believe this or you know, we're living life better because of this. It's like no, it's like we we'll always have that like we need to remain open to others. Um and not not necessarily to join the tribe, but just like to kind of recognize other tribes doing similar things, you know. Um and so I think community is incredibly important because it makes life fun. um you know and um and it reinforces essentially like you were saying there's mirrors around us you know and if with the cleaner the mirrors like the quality of people that we have we're clean mirrors for one another or what I call mirror plus so it's like we're reflecting but we're also giving ourselves in part of the reflection um and if we're doing that with each other it's like we this hyper hyper strengthened um communal identity and I think you know operating through the world with that kind energy. People recognize it or they're curious about like why are you like this and so forth and that kind of spreads. It's contagious. And so I think yeah, community is super important because the world again the way it's designed and it's a great design. Um, it can make people feel siloed, compartmentalized or that they feel like they should be siloed or compartmentalized because it's a tough world out there and you got to really rely on yourself or like just got your four people that you dig you dig with and that's it cuz everybody else is, you know, whatever it is. Um, but when you kind of like get over that, it's a slightly silly notion, but like when you figure out a way, and I have compassion for it, but I'm just saying like it is ultimately silly. But when you kind of uh allow vulnerability in your life and community in your life, uh, man, it just it enriches you in a way that way you're not doing all the heavy lifting all the time of like, do I have to self-realize all the time? You know, it's like, no, there's other people that are doing it, too. and we're all the same entity at the end of the day. And so it's kind of nice and then you're kind of winking at each other through our characters that we've designed, you know. >> Yeah. It's it's cool to be able to take like the experience of being connected to life to others, take it off the pedestal of like a meditation mat or like a spiritual practice and put it into your everyday life through the various different ways you can. I've been really enjoying like these Japanese uh style like tea ceremonies every morning like sitting with tea for an hour. It's like an it's like an hourong meditation, but you're drinking pouring tea. >> And it's been really cool to feel like the >> transference into my dayto-day life of like maintaining that level of awareness of of like you spoke to the object and experience or the uh experiencer and >> the observer. >> The observer. >> Yeah. uh and like being able to maintain that throughout your day like as a as a really really beautiful practice. Um I'm curious like yeah one of the last thoughts or questions I kind of have is I think people like so many people admire your level of creat creativity and your level of artistry and we are we all have that place that is one and the same within us and then we also have this deeply unique individual expression of God and life the universe that expresses itself in different ways creatively like through whatever we're naturally drawn to and I'm curious like your thoughts on how we can pay attention and continue to cultivate that in our own individual ways because I love this quote from Tony K. Bombar. I think the it's the artist's responsibility to make the revolution irresistible. >> I like that. That's very cool. I agree with that 100%. So, I'm curious like as we're waking up to our own artistry and we're waking up to our own the responsibility we have to be able to shape culture, to be able to impact our communities and to awaken to those realizations on an individual level. Uh, yeah. What what thoughts do you have to support people discovering their unique expression creatively? Yeah, I mean it's the adventure of the lifetime, you know. It's like like that's that's kind of I think it's the first step, you know. I think um when uh you know specifically if I'm thinking about like artists like young artists and they'll ask me like you know what advice would you give about you know like my journey and stuff and I'm like you have the easiest job in the world and and what I mean by that is like all you have to do is have a good time and have fun like in what you're doing like like like why are you doing what you're doing in the first place and if the answer is like you know something like fame and fortune and you know and so that's a thing but that's not the thing you know um it's you have to ask like are you having a blast do you wake up not imagine yourself not being you know if you if you can't imagine yourself not doing this then that's what you should be doing and while you're doing that that feeling that you've had creating it's just about having a good time about the fun so I always say follow the fun it's you know I don't do I don't like to work and um and thankfully because I do the things the way that I do and it's like it's the way that I do it and um you know people just have to kind of be like well we do it this way and I'm just like yeah but I do it this way and they'll be like okay well maybe you can fit into that. I was like, "Yeah, I'll fit into it. I'll figure it. Trust me." You know? Um but uh I don't Yeah, I don't like being like, "Gh, we're going to have this grueling day at the I'm like, "Wait a minute. Do we need to Did we need to do three takes of that? Did um do we need to change the lighting? Are we worried about continuity? This is a comedy." Like, you know what I mean? I'll just be like, we just need to preserve the inspired moments like and and if we're trudging and toiling and stuff like that, it it just doesn't yield for me the the greatest feeling on on set if we're speaking about set. Um and and therefore, what can I do to ensure that I'm protecting the fun of the situation? And if I'm in charge of a thing, like I'll make sure the food is good and I'll make sure that there's no plastic water bottles on set. you know, it's like that, you know, people are helping clean up, you know, after the thing or whatever, and we're only doing two takes instead of five takes, you know, like I want us to be out of here in 5 hours. I don't want to be any I don't want to be here for all these extra hours to prove that we worked hard to make this thing. It's like that doesn't make a thing better. And so for me, it's it's like fighting for fun through simplicity and remembering like, yeah, this is the adventure. Like like like I want to preserve that. So preserving the fun and chasing the fun and and doing it for the love of what you're doing, it's all that really matters. And again, from there, that's kind of like being in service of love. And then coherence follows from that. >> What do you think for those that are like the starving artist archetype where like they want to follow the fun, they have a passion, they want to pursue and get better at >> and it's tough to be able to like sustain themselves financially living off of that. Um, >> you've been doing this for a while. I'm curious what your thoughts are as I'm sure you've had a lot of people ask you about this. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, because I mean when I started I mean I guess technically I've always been doing art but um when I guess I started doing it professionally. Um uh you know I would have been like what 18 19 or something like that. And um you know again it's really like all I did was like I wanted to be a part of things and so part of it was like man someday I hope I get play to get to play with that bass player you know and then like two years later there's like an ad in the local rag like this band seeks keyboardist and I'm like wow that's crazy that's the band with that bass player and then I try out for it and then I get the the thing I'm like oh [ __ ] I'm doing this thing you know so a lot of it is like imagining yourself where you want to be and Um, and again, community is kind of the thing cuz like, you know, I lived with people. I lived with like a collective of all kinds of artists and we helped each other um through hard times and if you know, you were down on rent or whatever. Luckily, I had like parents that would be helpful now and then and you know or my friends would help me out or you know um so it's really about community and um and then that community is built on everyone's unified passion for having a blast and doing dumbass cool [ __ ] or badass [ __ ] or however you want to view it. And I think that that's the thing that saves you. So, in the in the beginning, like if you're just starting out and you're like, I have to work this [ __ ] job and blah blah blah. But there's something there's a pride in like I'm going to [ __ ] do this no matter how hard this is. If I have to drag my equipment, you know, by hand up a giant hill to get to this jam session, I'm going to do it because I know when I get there, it's going to be amazing. It's going to all be worth it, you know? And those reminders are the things that keep you going. >> I love that. That's so important feel like to surround yourself in the environments with people that are in the direction you want to move, you know, and be able to like have that level of indignation or conviction for for what you want. >> Totally. Yeah. And also people recognize it, you know, like other artists are just like that's badass. It's like, well, you dragged all that [ __ ] all the way, you know, or whatever, you know? It's like, [ __ ] you got arrested and then after you got let go out of the the holding cell, you came straight to rehearsal. That's [ __ ] cool. You know what I mean? You get rewarded all the time. It's It's awesome. >> Yeah. Those little like affirmations along the journey. >> Yeah. >> You're in the right direction. Yeah. It's good. >> This has been fun. Have you been having fun this conversation? >> Yeah. No, it's been great. It's cool to get to talk like about stuff cuz I don't, you know, it's like I don't get to talk about it as much as I'd like to. So, I appreciate that. >> Yeah. I know. This has been a been a blast, man. Uh I just want to open the floor in case there's any thoughts you have given the whole context of this conversation. Like is there anything you feel feel inspired that's on your heart or anything that you want to share? >> No, not not really other than um you know stay stay you know stay in service of love, man. It's like it'll get we'll get through these dark times, you know. It's like these dark times are here for a reason. And um and the more we stay in coherence with that, the more we move into the possibility on the on the infinite horizon that leads us to the world that we want to live in. So that's what I would say. >> Beautifully said. Thank you, man. >> Yeah, man. >> I really appreciate you coming out and the long drive and the traffic and like getting to connect and it's just my favorite space to to have a couple hours to dive deep, >> man. That's so sick. It's great. Thank you. >> Thank you, man. Just uh last thing, is there any where people can stay connected with you with upcoming projects or things we'll link down in the description? >> Yeah, for sure. Um I have a website. It's reggi-watts.com. Um some other [ __ ] took Reggie Watts. I did have it for a long time and then I lapsed and then like someone snagged it, but uh anyway, so reggie-watts.com and that has like all my show upcoming show information and um other things like I sell dumb things on there and stuff. Um and that's that. And then I have a podcast I think it's safe to say is coming out. Um uh I haven't signed the contract, but I think it will be. Maybe when this by the time this comes out I would have signed it. Anyways, but it's uh it's just called the Reggie Watts podcast and that'll be on iHeart podcast and um yeah, making music with Craig Richards, electronic album with Craig Richards and um various music projects, something with Joanna Warren and yeah, all I'm always collaborating. But yeah, those are the main things. >> I love it, dude. Well, yeah. We'd love I'd love to have have you back at some point. >> Maybe we can get get weird. Do some improv stuff. Pull out the looper. >> I'm down. I'm so down. I'm so down. Whatever you want. >> Dope. Thank you, bro. And appreciate everybody for tuning to this episode of the Know Thyself podcast. Catch you on the next one. Be well.

In this conversation, Reggie Watts explores creativity not as a skill reserved for a few, but as the fundamental way human beings relate to reality itself. From comedy and music to improvisation, paradox, and play, Reggie reflects on how we’re constantly creating our experience of life—often without realizing it. We talk about absurdity as a doorway to truth, humor as a form of instantaneous awakening, and why laughter momentarily dissolves identity, ideology, and certainty. Reggie shares how improvisation shapes his philosophy of living, why structure exists to be transcended, and how playfulness restores a sense of freedom in a world that often feels rigid and over-defined. BON CHARGE - 15% off red light therapy products I personally use https://www.boncharge.com/knowthyself [Code: KNOWTHYSELF] André's Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 00:00 Intro - Reggie Watts 04:54 The absurdity of being human 07:21 The insight gained through self-reflection 11:34 The philosophy of improv 19:06 Realizing the artist in you 24:27 Ad: BON CHARGE 25:44 Reggie’s form of death meditation 38:14 Altered states as a reference point 46:09 Not all transpersonal experiences are equal 52:43 Reframing anxiety after altered states 1:03:25 It’s all an illusion 1:12:44 Service to self vs service to others 1:19:28 Building community 1:23:15 Closing thoughts ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.reggie-watts.com/ https://www.instagram.com/reggiewatts https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com Listen to the show: Spotify: https://spoti.fi/4bZMq9l Apple: https://apple.co/4iATICX