“Total SICKO!” - Catching Predators Legend on Epstein Files & Roblox COVERUP | Chris Hansen • 397

Hello. >> Have a seat, Chris. >> I'm looking for the Julian Dory podcast. >> Is that why you're here? >> That's what the transcript say. >> I think Deep's got some messages to say otherwise. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> Well, stop stealing my lines. Chris Hans says, "It's great to have you here, man." >> Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. >> It's kind of cool to turn around on you for about 3 seconds right there. >> Yeah. >> You're a real trained pro with that, too. You have responses ready. It's almost like you've seen it before. >> You know, you start doing something for 40 45 years, you start to get good at it, you know? >> Yeah. I mean, do you have like obviously people see the videos and it's it's real stuff which is a scary part of it, >> but then the other part of it is afterwards like you're doing a great thing. You're catching someone and preventing them from hurting a child at that point obviously cuz law enforcement takes care of it. But, >> you know, it's funny after the fact and that way when you deliver it how you do, but when you go in there, do you still have adrenaline like pumping every time? especially at the beginning of each individual investigation. You know, a lot goes into it as you can imagine. So, the the chatters with law enforcement, the decoys are working. They're they're talking to different men online and and not everybody shows up. Some people say, "Uh, that's not right. I can't come meet a 14, 15 year old child for sex." And and they do the right thing. Good. Others take longer, but they do eventually show up. But when that first one walks in, yeah, I still have that feeling, you know, of my heart being in the throat. That's that's how you stay sharp. I think you never you can never take it for granted because you don't know. You think you know who this guy is. We have various means of checking their background if they're using a real phone number, but sometimes you just don't know. And sometimes those are the guys who end up being a doctor or a law enforcement officer or somebody who, you know, it's just it's real shocking that they would be involved in this sort of activity. I mean, I just don't know. Like, I had Tommy G in here who's close buddy of mine, >> Tommy G came along on one of our stings in Northern Michigan >> and he was talking about it when we had him here for episode 306. He was like, you know, my heart was like palpitating. Yeah. when these guys were coming in. Now, obviously, he hasn't done it a 100 million times like you, but it's like you're doing a TV show, but it's real and there's real life consequences to it. And you're doing a great thing, but you're like, "Oh my god, like you're about to end someone's life." >> I think that that's what has made the show so enduring and is so captivating for people to watch it. I mean, it will be 22 years this March since we did the very first investigation. >> Wow. >> In Beth Page, Long Island. And you talk about your heart being in your throat. When we did that first investigation, we didn't have law enforcement involved. I mean, I had a security guy, Ron Knight, who was, you know, at NBC at the time, former NYPD lieutenant. >> Was he loaded? >> Yeah. Yeah. He he was carrying. He took all the knives out of the kitchen. But we didn't know what was going to happen. >> You know, in those days, in the very first investigations, we worked with perverted justice in in all the investigations we did at NBC, online watchdog group, >> and they posed as kids online, and if somebody made a date with a child, they would post their identity on their website in the beginning of their existence. And if law enforcement could make a case, they would. We thought we'd partner with them. But I mean, we're in this house and, you know, we don't know who these guys are. And in that first investigation in two and a half days, we had um 17 guys surface, including a New York City firefighter. And I thought, "Holy hell, you know, what have we found here?" I It was It was mindboggling. But, you know, the guys would leave and with the exception of the firefighter, they were never prosecuted for their crimes that day. They took off. They were on TV, but they took off. And we did. >> They couldn't prosecute that. >> Well, you got to remember that this was very early on in the experience. >> And so it was even early in the process in the whole movement for law enforcement to do this. I mean, there I existed, internet crimes against children. Stings were happening, but not to the extent they are today. Hey guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe. It's a huge, huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link in my description or in the pin comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below. And so the fact that we did this without law enforcement present and we did it with an online watchdog group and even though that online watchdog group did have some relationships with law enforcement and you know look I've been covering law enforcement for my entire career. So at that point 24 years now in the second investigation when we went to Virginia outside of Washington DC these cases were referred and a lot of them were prosecuted. But it became clear to me, you know, early on that in order to be socially responsible, we had to collaborate with law enforcement. >> How did you pitch this at the beginning? It was it was such a No one had ever done anything like this before. >> We learned about I learned about perverted justice and um I put together a pitch for the story pack at DLine and I said, "Look, these guys do this. I think if we can combine their talent as being decoys and our ability to wire a house with hidden cameras and microphones and we've done that for different kinds of stories over the years, >> it could be very compelling and it it's a simple pitch pack. It's three paragraphs. Hansen two days later, yeah, we bought it. Go do it. I signed a producer, Lynn Keller. She reached out to perverted justice. You want to do this? Yeah, we'd be happy to do it. Okay, great. found a house in in uh Beth Page, as I mentioned, and it belonged to a retired NYPD cop as well, and we set it up and did it. >> And um it was just it it was happening so fast and so furiously that I remember at one point early on, I think it was about the third guy came in and all the transcripts of the online chats were mixed up on the dining room table. We're trying to keep them straight. But I came out for the third guy with the wrong set of transcripts. And so I looked at him, I said, "Well, it says here that you wanted to do blank, blank, and blank with a 13-year-old girl named Susie." Goes, "No, that's not me." I said, "Excuse me." I go back, get a second set of transcripts, read the name and the details. No, that's not me. Finally, on the third set of transcripts that I grabbed, it was him. Yeah, that's me. Okay, good. And and it was just stunning to me. >> Wow. >> That it was happening so quickly that we couldn't even keep track of the transcripts. And we had people there. I mean, I had a producer, I had an associate producer, I had security, we had uh, you know, two people from Perverted Justice. We had the whole crew was there, the camera people, both the hidden camera people with the remote cameras and regular camera guys. One guy, Ronnie Knight, the security guy, had to shove in the basement and said, ' Don't move. Don't speak. Don't do anything. While another guy came in, this guy who was from Eastern Europe, thought he had just entered some sort of a torture chamber, snuff movie kill zone of some sort. He thought he was cooked, you know, and he left there without being harmed or facing any criminal charges. So, >> that part those guys were rather fortunate. Yeah, it does. The the firefighter was investigated by the FBI and he was prosecuted. Now, why did they just out of the 17 guys that day, why did they just pick him? >> Because we knew, we were able to identify him by name. We are able to identify him in terms of where he worked, which firehouse in Brooklyn. We went out and confronted him after the fact and he admitted it on camera. And so, the the the feds had a pretty easy case. And I believe, if memory serves me correctly, I believe he took a plea bargain and I think he had to leave the fire department. >> Well, good. >> Yeah. >> But this is back in 0304 when you were first in March of 04. >> Okay. So, you mentioned it was like a 2 and 1/2 day investigation before the first one. What did that look like? Cuz that's not that long a time to put this together and get 17 hits. Now you know perverted justice had been in the chat rooms and they had been working posing as children and you know they would go in there and and just hang out and if they were approached and remember in those days it was a little I don't want to say easier but it was a little more direct because most of this activity was taking place in chat rooms on AOL and Yahoo and that antiquated platform called MySpace. So it was all right there. Yeah. So if you could go in there and pose as a child, they would have lengthy conversations sometimes over weeks and guys would, you know, groom and they try to cajul these kids into sexual relationships and, you know, they thought they'd hit a home run. They thought they found the child of their dreams in this very perverted um, you know, potentially damaging and criminal way. So it was more targeted then. And so it wasn't unusual to have that many guys in such a short period of time. Well, you and I are talking at a time right now where this really just completely up underworld is, I don't know, maybe finally getting somewhat of the light it should have shined on it by everyone else besides you >> for once because of the stories like the Epstein, because of the stories like the Roblox, which you and I are going to talk about today with your new documentary, and because of a litany of different organizations of pedophiles that people are just uncovering. But, you know, before you went to do this, you obviously knew it was a problem. You knew these people were out there. Did your perspective get exponentially worse after the very first one shows 17 hits just in one area? >> Look, I didn't know if anybody was going to show up. Right. When I was driving out to that sting house during the first investigation, I was wondering if, you know, I just blown tens of thousands of dollars of the network's money. You know, what if nobody shows up? What if this was a great idea, but executing it was impossible. >> And we know that's a possibility with every story, but you don't want that to happen. And as I was on my way out there, the producer called me and said, "Hey, two guys are due here in 45 minutes. You got to get here." I said, "All right, well, I'm, you know, I'm on the thro's neck. The traffic is going to clear in a minute. I'll get there." Um, >> wait, two at the same time? >> We've had that happen on on numerous occasions, >> literally, uh, throughout the years. And, and, you know, we can control it a little bit and have the decoys hold the guy off or just wait a minute. But we've had we've had and it happens in virtually every sting. You know, we were out uh >> Keep the mic with you if you don't mind. >> A few months ago and you know, one guy had to I had to finish up quickly because another guy was on his way. We've had guys sit next to each other. We had a case in u Flaggler Beach, Florida where two guys came in at the same time and one guy knew what was going on and one didn't. And he, one guy looks at the other goes, you know, when he's done with us, we are so screwed. It was it was uh Tennis Boy 213 and Slaves to Mistress. >> Those were their names. >> Those were the screen names. >> Not hiding much. >> No. >> On the second one. >> No. No. Tennis Boy 213. That was an odd one, but for what he was doing. But >> how do you have a decoy if two guys get there at the same time? I'm just trying to picture this. What do you mean a decoy is keeping them away outside the house? It's like, well, they're chatting, so they can say, "Hey, hold off for a minute. I'm getting in the shower. Hey, hold off for a minute. You know, my mom popped back in for a second." So, there's a million excuses that they could they could slow the guy down. >> And typically, we don't give out the address, you know, immediately. We wait till they're in orbit till we can control the situation a little bit. >> Jesus. I've been trying a psychoactive mushroom over the past year, and it's not the one everyone's always talking about. The mushroom is called Amanita Muscaria. red one with the white spots you've seen in art and folklore forever. It's not psilocybin and it's not a traditional psychedelic, but at higher doses, it can be extremely psychoactive and disassociative in its own way. For me, it's way more grounding. Puts me in a calm, focused, almost flow state headsp space and even helps me sleep. I think one of the reasons I struggle to fall asleep once in a while is because I have so many thoughts about the next day or the week or what's going on in here. And so whenever that happens, I can have a little blue lotus extract from my friends over at Amitar to put me right in the mood to calm down and go to sleep. And Amitar is the reason I feel comfortable trying Amanita Muscaria at all. If you've looked in Domin before, you know the space is filled with sketchy gas station products, synthetic knockoffs, fake lab reports. It's just messy. Amara is the opposite of that. They've served over 50,000 customers at this point, and their sourcing is clean, lab tested, and transparent. No synthetic analoges, no mystery blends, no weird research chemicals, gummies, capsules, extracts, chocolate bars, ammonita body oil, basically every way you'd want to try it. On top of that, their shipping is fast. Their support team actually responds and their website is packed with educational materials and real dosing information so that you are not guessing. So, if you want to join me and give this a try today, you can go to www.antur.com/go/julian. That link is in my description below and use code JD22 at checkout for 22% off your order. Once again, that's amara.com/go/julen. Link in my description below. Use code JD22 at checkout for 22% off your first order. Yeah, it always every time like when I would see the ones where you'd have the obviously like you have the fake kid there when you're doing this >> and that was where the show ended up and it's like first of all amazing acting always on those decoys. But secondly, you're just like, "Oh my god, like is what if something happens real fast and they don't get in there soon enough?" Did you ever have close calls with things like that? We never had anything that turned out to be, you know, dangerous where somebody got hurt. But you do wonder, and people ask me all the time, do you ever feel sorry for these guys? You know, because sometimes a guy will walk in there, he's 19, 20, 21 years old. Is it the first mistake he's ever made? Does he think that maybe it's okay because the decoy is posing as a 14 or 15 year old? the age difference won't mean much if the relationship were to take root. But then I always look at the examples like in the episode that drops today as we record this episode on the 26th of February. And in that case down in Louisiana, Livingston Parish, Louisiana, a young guy came in and he swore up and down. He' never done this before. He, you know, he wasn't going to really do anything. Now, I know in the chat he has talked about making a porn video with this girl. I watched him come into the house and try to give a big hug to the sheriff's deputy decoy posing as the child. You know, there are a lot of young deputies that get involved in these cases. We don't use civilians anymore generally. >> And so now I've got him on the hot seat and he sticks to his story and he admits it doesn't look good. And we go on and on and we go at it for about 25 minutes, 30 minutes. And they take him away. His backpack's there. And what do you suppose is at the bottom of that backpack? >> Condoms. >> Loaded .38 pistol. Full clip. So what happens now? I doubt very much that he could have gotten in there, got the gun out, and got a shot off to the extent that he would hurt me or anybody else. I mean, we a lot goes into this in terms of precautions, but what happens if we're not there and he's alone with a 14y old girl? And what happens if she doesn't want to cooperate in the making of this porn video? And what happens if it doesn't go his way and he tries something aggressive and now he thinks he's he's in trouble and that law enforcement is going to go after him for sexual assault. What happens? Does he use that gun on the girl to threaten her to comply? Does he use it to kill her and hide the body? It raises all kinds of horrific questions. >> And so we have that. So yeah. Yeah. There. Look, there's an inherent level of danger involved in doing it, right? And I understand that that's part of the draw. That's part of the interest and allure to viewers. And I'm comfortable that we have taken every precaution possible to create a safe environment when we do this. A lot goes into it as I've said. And so we make it absolutely as safe as possible. Is it is it absolutely guaranteed? No. Nothing's guaranteed. >> You know, nothing that adventurous or that enterprising is ever guaranteed. >> What is the legality in that situation? My first question is, did you find out if he legally owned the gun or illegally owned the gun? >> He had the gun legally. We learned after the fact. >> So, is that a legal? >> Well, it's it's an interesting question because he can legally own the gun at I believe certain guns can be owned at 18 or 21 in the state of Louisiana where we were. He can carry that gun without a special pistol license. But if he's using the gun in the commission of a felony, it could >> be a crime, >> right? >> Because you can possess a gun, you can have it, and we see this in southern states where the carry laws are pretty liberal, but if you use that in the commission of a crime, then you could face another felony. Now, did he use it in the commission of this crime? Not yet. So, and as far as I know, he has not been charged with a gun crime in that case >> because that's that's what I was thinking. I'm like, if he owns it legally and it's at the bottom of his bag >> and he never took it out, you don't see him go for it ever on camera, >> technically, >> it's not a crime and he's not going to be charged with it, >> but what you're saying is perfectly valid. It's like, why did he have it there? >> Right. We had a situation in Alabama during a sting where I'm interviewing a guy and he's not being threatening at all, but you know, we're going at it pretty hard. And the lieutenant sees on the the monitor in the other room that he's got a big 45 hanging out of his pants. And he comes out and I didn't see it. I look pretty carefully, right, at what's going on and what the bulges are and all that. And I always make them take their hands out of their pockets. But the lieutenant came in and said, "Hey, put your hands up and he grabs the gun out." He said, "Do you have a gun?" And the guy pulls it out of his pants and sets it on the kitchen counter, pointed at me, and everybody, you know, gets a little bit alarmed and they take the gun and off they go. But it's it's something we see, not in the majority of cases certainly, but we see it from time to time. Outside of coming in and being direct and obviously delivering your line perfectly every time, what are what is what are your first instincts when you walk in there? What outside of also looking for a gun? You already mentioned that, but like what kinds of things are you looking for? Are you just totally clear on like let me just address this person and see if they understand why they're here? >> Well, I want to engage, right? So oftentimes it's not aggressive unless they're aggressive from the start and I feel that I need to take control of the situation. >> So in some jurisdictions, law enforcement makes the first contact, right? And so that makes it easier in some ways because it's already the situation's settled. The guy's got handcuffs on by the time I interview him. In a lot of the scenarios, I get the first crack at it and that's when I have to control the environment. So if he starts antsing around or trying to go for the door, you know, we have code words between my crew and law enforcement and when they hear you don't want to do that, that's their cue to come in and take control of him. Now, in most incidents, I can become a little bit more aggressive and doineering and I can get him in the in the chair in the seat and then we can start it. And if they start, who are you? What do you think you're going to do? And sometimes they think they know exactly who I am. >> Yeah. >> I mean, many times in the chats now we see this sounds like a Chris Hansen thing or this sounds like a Sheriff Grady Jud thing or Sheriff Chris Swanson thing, you know. Or we had one guy >> in our most recent investigation in Livingston Parish, Louisiana, who actually sent an article from the local paper about a previous sting I had done with the sheriff, Jason Hart. He said, 'You know, they worked together on some of these things and still came over and felt so comfortable that he got in the pool and the hot tub at the decoy house at the sting house. And then I confronted him. He said, "I knew it. I What did you know?" I knew it could be you. I said, "Then what are you doing here?" And the drive to fulfill the fantasy of having sex with a child for some of these men is so strong, just like a heroin addiction where they know there's a 20% chance fentanyl could be in the heroin and could kill them. They know there's a 20% chance it's me or some other law enforcement agency looking for adults praying on children and they could get busted. And they the the need to fulfill this fantasy overrides common sense or or any respect for the law or for a child. Where does it come from? Where do you think it comes from? >> Isn't that what we'd all want to know? I wish I could tell you. I know it's not a one-sizefits-all diagnosis. I am not by any stretch of the imagination trained in psychiatry to be able to give you a clinical diagnosis on any of these guys. But having looked at hundreds of them in the eye across from a table just like we are speaking now I can tell you that my theory is they break down into roughly three categories. Right? There's the hardcore heavy hitter. He'll do this with or without the internet. He'd have been the guy at the mall, you know, the movie theater, the bad little league coach, whatever, wherever he can get access to kids. These guys have to be in prison for life. They're the young guys, the opportunists, 19, 20 years old. You know, if the girl's willing, they don't see it as a crime. Even though I would argue there's no difference between a 19-year-old predator's danger and a 39year-old's predator's danger, right? It's the same danger to a child. >> And then there's this more complicated group in between, you know, the professional in his 30s, 40s or 50s. >> And he's thought about this. He's thought about his urges for a boy or a girl. And normally they can keep that in check. They operate their regular lives. And then it gets to a point where they fantasize so frequently that the only thing that will fulfill the fantasy is a real life encounter. And that's when we see them knock on the door of a sting house. >> Yeah. The way I'm thinking about how you just put that really is also like what part of life someone's into. The the first category aside, the people who you call some of these guys, they just they got to go away. These are the guys who, you know, could face castration in Louisiana. They could face the death penalty in other states. Um, and and and maybe that's good. Maybe they should because that's the only thing that's going to stop them besides lifetime incarceration. >> Yeah. Yeah. You can't It's It's the ultimate It's like It's It's like being a vampire. >> Yeah. >> You know, you do that you do that to a kid. There's something you are taking from them for the rest of their life that can never be fixed. And and what causes that? Is it uh wiring of the brain? Is it a childhood experience? Is it the fact that they were victimized as a child? Is it any number of things? Yeah. I think again there's no one straight line diagnosis for this. And and we want easy answers in society, right? In American society, we want this is a bad guy, lock him up forever. this is a bad guy. Give him a shot that's going to keep him from offending. This is a bad guy who should go into treatment and he should come out of it better. It's not the same guy. >> And until we get our arms around that, um, you know, we're going to continue to to deal with the same the same issues, but it's not going away. And the internet has only gotten more ubiquitous in terms of the platforms available for adults to approach children. I mean again as I told you in the beginning used to be three spots now I can't even keep track of them anymore and the online games and everything else we have going on it it creates a lot of opportunity so not only would I argue that there is more of this activity than ever before but it's also so much more diffuse that it's more difficult to investigate and catch the guys because there's thousand places they could be >> yes >> and I can't be in all those places. The law enforcement across the country, across the world can't be in all those places. >> That's right. >> You know, we did a my wife and I went to a fundraiser Saturday night the couple days before this recording down in Florida for the Child Rescue Coalition. And this organization uses technology that can track the trafficking of child seam in real time. And they share this technology for free with law enforcement around the world. and they they take a crack at it from that standpoint and I think that's one of the most effective ways to go after these guys because if you cut off the source of child and seesam you eliminate a lot of children being abused in an effort to create this material but you also cut off what I think is is the fuel in some cases that gets these guys so cranked up to commit these crimes. There is without exception when somebody gets caught offending a link to viewing child porn. I I believe and and a lot of people smarter than me who study this a lot deeper than I do agree that almost without exception there's a link between viewing child porn and offending. And if you view it long enough you will offend. And so that's why when people say to me, "Well, at least they're just looking at it. They're not they're not." I said, "No, no, no. First of all, a child had to be victimized to make it, >> right? And I don't care. You can get into this argument about >> AI generated stuff or whatever. It's still child porn. >> And ultimately, this predator is going to get to a point where it's not enough and he's going to try to find a real child. And that's just the way it is. >> Yep. I and I do think there's something to like we joke about it all the time like not not child porn but regular porn and stuff but I think there's even something to that too >> with some of these guys too with how ubiquitous porn is around them period >> and you can get it for free when I was a young teen if we wanted to look at what was considered to be porn in 1973 or 1974 we would have to and it wasn't even it wasn't even really porn. It was a it was a Playboy fold out, right? >> I mean, it was >> not even nude, right? It was very straightforward. >> We would have to sneak into the garage of a buddy's dad, find the hidden box of previous u editions of Playboy, somehow sneak those out of the garage without our mom seeing it, take it to the woods someplace to look at it, and then bury it for a future date if somebody else wanted to look at it. That was how you looked at porn today. It's a few keystrokes and you can see, you know, some of the most aggressive >> Yeah. >> pornography ever made. >> Yeah. >> And it's the world has changed. >> It wires people's brains. >> It does wire people's brains. And and the other thing that, you know, we talk about all the time and we figure out we, you know, need to do a documentary on is, you know, the large number of female teachers getting caught uh sexually, right, involved with young male students, >> right? You know, I think some of this stuff starts out on porn sites as fantasy porn and people get caught up in it. Women, too. >> I could see that. >> And we don't find women in our stings. And the experts will tell us it's because women predators, female predators don't like the anonymity involved in our stings where male predators get off on it. >> Female predators want to know their victim. They want to know who it is. It's a student. It's little Billy so and so over there. Well, this is safe for me to go exploit him. But it causes the same kind of damage in society. We look at it maybe it's a little boy's fantasy, right? He'll be fine. But it does it does cause damage. And if you're the parent of that 13-year-old boy, you got to put that genie back in the bottle >> and and get him back to an age appropriate set of behavior. And it's very difficult. And then what does he do because of that experience down the road? >> You know, what does that make him Yeah, there is a bit of a I guess like the the lens we view it double standard with that. >> Absolutely there is. And and every time we do a story on it or we mention it or I say something on social media about it, it's like oh you just got to live his dream come true. That's not that's not how it works, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Like it's it's funny, but like it's it it's not. I just sometimes you'll see it. I think it gets a little strange when it's like a 16 or 17 year old boy like 23. >> That's a young man. >> Yeah. And then you're like, >> right, >> you know, but she's still a predator. >> It's not ideal. And she's in a position of power authority. It'd just be like, you know, if you're 18 years old working at a company and the 22year-old, 23y old supervisor, >> right, >> she's got power over you. >> That's right. >> It'd be wrong if it was a guy. It's wrong if it's a girl. I understand the double standard and I understand the difference in psychology and the difference in you know men are supposed to be able to stick up for themselves but you know it's still an issue. >> Yeah. And there's also you know you talk about those three categories of types and you went in a different direction. I thought you were going to go with that. And that's, you know, that's also from like the personal experience of seeing it up close. But like even zooming out more, just my amateur way of looking at it was always like, well, you have one obvious crowd who was abused when they were a child and now they've become the abuser. >> And I think that's legitimate. I think we see that, too. And I kind of put that in that either the the hardcore heavy hitter category or in the uh the middle category, the more mysterious one. it it's that's that's that's definitely in play there. >> And it's it's a weird thing because I have zero empathy for them as an adult and I have zero empathy for the act or anything like that. But I go back and I think about the kid >> who had that happen to them and the kid version of them I'm like damn like >> I've had guys tell me that we caught a guy in Marian County, Florida. We we did a sting this past summer. 41 guys showed up in six days. 41 just in Marian County, Florida. Now, some came from farther away. And I'm questioning the guy in the in the uh sheriff's department and at some point he breaks down and says, "Can I tell you something?" I said, "Yeah, absolutely." He said, "Well, I was, you know, abused by this older man and woman in my subdivision growing up. They had me cut the lawn and then they had me take my shirt off when I cut the lawn and then they had sex with me and you know maybe I mean he could be lying to me too. We weren't able to confirm all this but you know maybe that had something to do with this guy in this case. >> Um he claimed it did. I don't accept that as an excuse because if you were abused as a kid, and this is oversimplifying it obviously, but I I think you should know the damage that caused and you should take whatever steps you have to take to not damage another kid. >> I agree. The other category though is the category of people who just became this or decided to become this. They weren't abused and something happens. Now, you mentioned it could be from them at some point taking the really dark rabbit hole down porn and that leading to the illegal dark web version of it. It could be, you know, other things of a nonsexual nature that happen to them in their life that then they want to take power over other people because of it. I could go on and on and on and people way more qualified than me could. But like I don't know. I I guess the fact I'm grateful for the fact that that can't process to me how you would get there, >> right? It's good that we can't understand it, right? >> Because if we could understand it, it'd be awfully scary to think that way. >> Um, we need to understand it and thankfully there are people who do, you know, medical doctors, psychiatrists who go into prisons and interview these guys to get information. Um, but it's a dark area of medicine to be in. And I think that's one of the issues. I mean, if you go to medical school and you spend 10, 12 years, you know, specializing, are you going to do plastic surgery on Park Avenue across the river here? Are you going to go into federal prisons and interview >> pedos, >> right? >> I mean, it's it's it's >> you have to have a a special drive to to do that. And it's dark, man. >> It's very dark. >> I mean, you know, I am thankful that I've never seen an image of Seam, and I never want to see it, but somebody's got to look at it. Somebody's got to prepare the prosecutor. Somebody's got to say this is what it is and file the charges. And those people, man, that's a dark job. And it takes a toll on them. I've seen it. >> Even some of the redacted images that we're all forced to see when we open up Twitter now with these Epstein files where it's >> it's clear. >> Yeah. what you're looking at it like sends it puts the worst type of goosebumps on you because you're like >> these are 50 60 70 year olds people and they're all rich by the way that makes it like something even about that even makes it worse. >> So why why do you have to pick on kids? You could have sex with virtually anybody, you know, you wanted or a lot of different people. But picking on kids and and living in this world where Epstein had so much power and influence, I mean, it's crazy, you know, what what went on there and how he was able to manipulate people and money and to um from a very young age lie, cheat, and steal his way to being nearly a billionaire. I mean, the New York Times did an article several weeks ago >> and they interviewed for the Sunday magazine and they interviewed his boss at Bear Sterns >> who said, "I I regret I didn't kill his career when I had the chance to because they found that he had lied on his resume." >> And he was able to convince him that, hey, look, if if I didn't lie, I mean, those are schools I couldn't get into. I learned on the streets. I have a hard knocks education and I'm obviously performing. I apologize for lying on my resume, but let me go to work. And they let him. And he continued and ultimately he got fired from there and ended up someplace else and manipulated, you know, Les Wexner into giving him control of a lot of money and a lot of other people too. And even after he served time in the 2008 case, that sentence, which was so crazy to me looking back, that this was a case that could have gone federal, right, where he should have done serious prison time that they were able to have lawyers manipulate this and to talk the government into a deal where he did 12 or 13 months basically living nights and weekends in a in a county jail, able to go to his office, >> right, >> from 9:00 to 5 and do whatever he wanted. >> How about what he pled to too, >> right? To not to having an underage prostitute but not knowing it essentially, >> right? Seven and it was 17 years and 10 months when there were 43 victims that were all 12, 13, and 14 years old. And they were able to manipulate law enforcement in in in some ways public opinion into thinking that what he was doing was creepy and bad, but it was basically hiring, you know, poor girls from the other side of the tracks to model bathing suits and give mass massages. And they were really of the age of consent when in fact it wasn't. It was a worldwide track trafficking organization bringing girls in from Eastern Europe and Russia and Asia and all kinds of places, you know, and and you know, we started to look at this back around 2015 and I had some investigators who I'd known for a long time who had been in federal law enforcement who were working with lawyers for the survivors and you know, I tried to get too fancy with it. I was trying to figure out how to do a sting, you know, how do I sting him? You know, how do I do this in in New York? And the levels of security were so so strong that there were you couldn't infiltrate it, right? And so I, you know, the truth is I just got busy with other stories and I kind of set it aside. It was Julie K. Brown at the Miami Herald >> who kept chipping away and chipping away and got these uh survivors to speak publicly. And without that fine work at that newspaper by her by by by Julie K. Brown and other reporters, that case in 2019 likely doesn't get prosecuted when it does. >> And the US attorney at the time even said so in the news conference. He said he pointed to the fine work by the by the Miami Herald. And so it shows me that some of these stories only come to light by focusing only on that one story and chipping away and chipping away and chipping away. It also shows me the importance of local news which I don't think gets the funding that it deserves in some cases. I come from local news. You know I started in Lancing, Michigan, went to Tampa, Detroit and then went to NBC and done everything since then that I've done. But it is important and I think every reporter should ideally I mean we're in a different world now because people can start off in different ways but should should be responsible to a local community and they were at the Miami Herald. >> Yeah. And it it was incredibly brave what they pulled off >> and they had they had private eyes. Bless you. They had private eyes tailing them. They they play these people play dirty. You know Epstein played dirty. >> Oh yeah. Did you know had were you aware of the case in 2008 when he got the deal or did you not become aware till 201? >> I didn't I didn't start paying attention to it until 1516. >> And what got you paying attention to it in the first place? I knew law enforcement agents who I'd worked with when I was in local news, who had moved around the country and we had stayed in touch, who were at that point in private investigations and had been retained by some of the lawyers representing the victims to find information. >> Okay. So, it was >> for for for the civil suits that ultimately were brought and settled. >> Got it. I wasn't sure if >> So, that was my end. So, I had, you know, I had some documents from the Palm Beach estate, not necessarily smoking gun stuff, but I had I had phone logs, for instance, and I spent a Saturday and Sunday just calling people up and down this list. And some were legitimate massage therapists. One was a a victim, and I heard from her attorney like 10 minutes later saying, "Look, she's not ready to talk now. I still talked to the attorney. She's not talked, but I'm going to hopefully talk to her one day on my podcast. >> So, you know, you chip away at this stuff and you ultimately will find answers. I mean, I interviewed a uh an author in the UK, Andrew Looney, for the latest episode of one of my podcasts, Have a See with Chris Hansen. and he had just come from lunch with a source on the case involving the former uh ambassador to the US and uh former Prince Andrew. >> Uh in the three days between the time we recorded the interview and the time that it went up on Have a Seat with Chris Hansen, Andrew had been arrested. The former ambassador had been arrested and everything else that he talked about is going to happen. I mean, this this could be the downfall of the British government in terms of the prime minister because the prime minister spoke up on behalf of the the uh ambassador who lied and said he had nothing to do with it. These people gave Epstein sensitive government information and they were rewarded by having access to women in some cases girls who were underage. This is I mean this this is something that I have not seen in 45 years of being a journalist. >> Yeah. >> And and I wish I had been preient enough in 2015 2016 to see where this is going. You know, we keep up with it now. We're very aggressively reporting on it now. But it's it's I don't think anybody besides Epstein knew how deep this went. Did you have obviously you didn't know how deep it went in 2015? No one did. But when you were, I don't know, spending that Saturday and Sunday going through the phone logs and finding people and then looking at at least the specs that these private detectives had given you, was there something in your gut at all that was like, "This is different. This is another level." >> Yeah. I wish I had known more at that time because I could have really garnered resources to to really focus more on it as opposed to some other projects. Good projects, important projects. But, you know, we were at that point getting ready to gear up the predator investigations again. So, I was focused on that. The Hansen versus Predators. I was starting um Crime Watch Daily. I anchored that show for a couple years. And we were doing stuff on ID. This is before podcast and my streaming network and all that. So, you know, I wasn't in a position to say, "Okay, I'm only going to do this." You know, I've always as a part of my job or jobs had to do a lot of different things at the same time. And that's cool. That's that's what I do. But, you know, yes, is there a part of me that wishes I could have focused on just that? Yeah. But I didn't realize at the time how big this was. >> Yeah. I remember I'd been saying this. I remember I saw an article. I believe it was in 2017. It could have been 2015, but I I think it was like 2017. Might have been in Politico or something like that that was outlining a little bit about this. I remember looking at that and just kind of saying, "Wow, what a sick rich guy." >> Yeah. >> And then kind of went on, what a bad guy. because they they tried to shape this. His lawyers, his PR people tried to shape this as creepy and yeah, he had younish girls coming in and giving massages. Yeah, it became sexual, but they're all of age. They all consented. And they tried to make it look like, okay, he was just taking advantage of poor girls on the other side of the tracks. But that's >> just a tiny piece of this. I mean, Gain Maxwell was going to universities and recruiting women. They had uh trips to Eastern Europe to identify models and telling them that they could be Victoria's Secret models because of the Les Wexner connection. And you know, along the way, I'm sure they're picking up whomever they could possibly pick up to be a part of this and to bring them to the island, to bring him to the mansion, to bring him to the Palm Beach State. Um, you know, it was you we're talking about hundreds if not thousands of women of of girls here, children. >> Yeah. And and with the latest drop of Epstein files, like I I've looked at this case religiously since 2019, it's because it just it's it's actually even way more than just the underage sex trafficking. There's a million things going on with it. That's just the worst part of it or what we what I should say we thought was the worst part of it. And now when you read these emails, there are all kinds of things on the table that I can't confirm yet or anything, but the fact that they're even on the table is a possibility. >> Oh, I agree. I see them, too. I mean, I've got multiple sources feeding me information, >> you know, like you, you know, you have people who are online sleuths who have ways of tapping into different things that I don't have necessarily the the the knowledge to to do. And and these things come my way. and I evaluate them and first of all try to see if it's true or not and does it make sense and then what do I do with it? You know, I I've never held anything back ever for anyone and never will. So, but you also have to view this in a way that that this is a unique situation, right? If I had my brothers as a reporter, I would want the criminal files on every high-profile criminal case from Guthrie going back my entire career. But the reason those files typically aren't released is because they contain unverified information and they contain information where there wasn't enough probable cause to get a warrant and to start a criminal prosecution. >> Yes. So in our society we have said that if if that doesn't exist then those files that information that investigative material should not be released to the public because you can damage somebody's reputation whose activities did not rise to the threshold of criminal prosecution. So this is unique. >> Yes, >> we usually don't get stuff like this unverified raw information. And so that adds, and look, I'm not standing up for anybody in the Epstein Files, but it does add a layer of responsibility for guys like you, guys like me, and across the board to make sure we're not accusing something that we can't back up. because it would not surprise me that Epstein falsified some of this stuff, made things look worse than they were to establish some some blackmail plot. >> And I'm sure I'm sure he squeezed a lot of people >> for money and other things u because he had something or could threaten something true or not. A lot of look there's a lot of bad behavior, right? There's a lot of horrible things. Look at all the people who have stepped down from prominent positions. >> Larry Summers, >> it's something, >> you know. >> Yeah, we were d we had a list of that, right? The latest people. Tom Pritsker stepped down from his board position. >> And what are these guys thinking? I mean, on one level, you could sort of understand, okay, if the guy hadn't faced any criminal charges and he was just a a playboy millionaire who had a private jet in an island, you could see his attraction. You could see why other single guys who were playboys who like attractive women would hang out with him, right? You can understand that. But once he's charged, >> yeah, >> as a predator, I mean, this guy should have been persona non grata for everybody. For Bill Gates, for the Clintons, for everybody. You can't do business or you shouldn't be doing business with a registered sex offender. and you have a responsibility to do your due diligence if you're a former president, if you're a government official uh to to make sure the people you're dealing with are are on the up and up. I mean, look at Prince Andrew. I mean, this thing is just And for him to have allegedly said to the arresting officers, "Oh, I'm the queen's son. You can't do this to me." >> Oh, he said that. >> That's the report. >> You get your ass in the car, fat boy. you ain't a prince no more, >> you know. >> Oh my god, I didn't hear that. >> And and you have to know that, you know, Charles is just glad to get this problem out of there. There's been no indication that he's been involved. I mean, obviously, you know, there are issues. You know, what did you know and when did you know it? And should you have cut ties with him earlier, >> but you know, he's in trouble on this thing. I mean, you know, selling using your position to get trade information and then giving it to Epstein in turn in return for sexual favors. >> I mean, that's that's that's treasonous. It is. And you talk about though these people who were really close to him, the ones we know were really close to him, who stayed associated with him where we know full well that they knew >> what he had been accused of and >> and continued the behavior. This wasn't a guy >> who said, "Hey, I made a mistake. I, you know, I I let somebody into the circle who was too young. She gave me a massage. There was a sexual act. You know, I'm going to >> go out of my way to start foundations and to to to do right and to to lead by example." He went right back to it. >> That's right. >> And arguably worse activity than ever before. >> And that's what I'm saying because he was from an environment where he could. And it's not just the wealth he had. It's the status in society. And this >> it's a sense of impunity. It's the same sense of impunity that former Prince Andrew has, that his former wife has, that Epstein and his buddies had. Um, they just didn't think it was it applied to them. You know, I interviewed Julia Bryant, who's an Epstein survivor, who was in South Africa, attractive young woman of legal age, but was coerced uh into coming back to the ranch, woke up in a surgical suite and still doesn't know exactly what happened >> in a surgical. >> Yeah. At the at the New Mexico ranch that he had this all kinds of stuff that was allegedly going on there. But she met Epstein when he was with Clinton and um other dignitaries >> in O2. >> In in no after O2 >> again >> when they were in South Africa >> again they did that again. Well, whatever whatever the date was of that South African trip, whether it was O2 or right around in that area, it was I guess it would be before '08 and and in and the charges. But I mean, here's a woman who >> was eager to get into modeling, met somebody who was with the president, the former president of the United States. I mean, how much more safe can you get? Secret Service agents there at dinner. Kevin Spacy's there, a Hollywood movie star. You know, of course she thinks that it's going to be okay. She certainly didn't bargain for what happened to her in in New Mexico, >> and she doesn't have any recollection. >> She has theories. >> I mean, I we did this interview for Have a Seat with Chris Hansen, and it's, you know, and and I knew her story. I had been prepped for the interview, but, you know, things kept coming out of it where I was learning things on the fly from her. I mean, it was it's it's it's amazing. And this guy was, you know, not prosecuted or investigated by local authorities there. I mean, he he threw money around like it was nobody's business. It's also so strange, Chris, that to this like they're only now apparent and it's very hazy what's going on. They're only now apparently going to look at exuming some of the ground around Zoro Ranch or actually going in there. It's a whole >> Well, that's where this took place. So, what else is going on there? You know, we we did a big investigation for Discovery Plus on Peter Nygard, you know, and he was a billionaire freakazoid, you know, >> and part of his deal, he's in prison up in in jail up in Canada waiting, you know, charges all over the all over the globe. But his deal was that he would allegedly impregnate young women in the Bahamas where he had a huge home and then have them get abortions and and and harvest their stem cells of the fetuses to inject in himself as the fountain of youth. And this we get into this in in that documentary. And um I mean was Epstein involved in that sort of activity? I don't know. That's where and again we just have to look at what we have and know what we don't yet. >> Yeah. >> But it's a question. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And when you look at >> what other billionaire guys have done, you know, were they in contact somehow? I mean obviously you know there there are some people who are in the concentric circles of of associates you know billionaire sex predators I mean similar acts right >> you have to ask those questions >> de can we pull up some of those emails where they use the code word jerky >> because the Joe and I have looked through this a bunch cuz >> I'm going to hit the men's room. Hold that thought. >> Okay, we'll be right back. >> I'm going to get >> All right, we're back. So, we have some of these emails up right here. >> And again, >> like you have to think of these things, as you put it, Chris, as if you're in like a court of law and what you can prove and what you can't. And right now, if you just looked at these alone, they don't definitively prove anything. >> But can we pull up that email you had up? >> Yeah. >> The one that had you had the perfect one up about the recipe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Go to the top one right there. So, this one is called jerky recipe in the subject. It's from December 21st, 2012. It says, "Hi, Steve Hansen." No relation on Jeffrey's Island is requesting the latest beef jerky recipe as J has asked her to try and make some. He says the last batch that you made tasted different and I think he I think he likes it as he would like to attempt it. Would it be possible to forward us the recipe? Thank you, Steve. This is the response. But I've now been told it is the old way Francis was doing it he likes best and not the latest batch. So on LSJ is go on little St. James is going to try and do it that way. I am in Europe but with him on the island if you need to call a liaz about getting anything down. So obviously the the number one point is they're not talking about real jerky here. We know that it's code for something. And when you go through some of the other emails that talk about how to refrigerate it, you know, where to store it, how many pounds it is and things like that, your brain goes to some of that Peter Nygard type world type. >> Absolutely. Now, I I've seen these and I have access to the, you know, the index emails as well. It's it's and I try to go through them when time allows, but yeah, I would guess if I were a betting man that they're not talking about actual beef jerky, not known to be an island treat. I mean, people eat a lot of fish down in the islands, and I'm sure other stuff, too. But, I mean, to me, this is code for something more than a fair is. >> Now, the the survivor you spoke to, what was her name again? >> Juliet Bryant. >> Julia Bryant. When she woke up on the medical table at Zoro Ranch, which is straight out of a horror movie, you said that she doesn't know what happened, but she has some theories about what could have. What does she think? >> She doesn't know. I mean, she she doesn't have scars. She doesn't have, you know, injuries that I'm aware of. Um, but it was just, you know, so startling to her to wake up in a in what appeared to be a surgical suite of some sort with people in scrubs and, you know, this freaked her out. I don't think she's completely processed this except that she has the memory of this happening and finally at some point got out of the whole deal and you know was talking about this and and not getting a lot of reception from officials and you know got a hold of a lawyer and got involved in the the civil suit against um against Epstein and was able to like so many other survivors get a settlement justly that has helped her in her life. But she's still she's still very much impacted by this. All these girls I mean imagine having to come to grips with this. First of all, you try in some of these cases they try to bury it, try to just deal with it. >> And then they decide, no, this is wrong and I'm not alone. And they gather together and some very dedicated lawyers got involved here to go after this case. And um you know, thankfully they did get settlements, >> but that doesn't make you all better. That doesn't make you whole. Yeah, >> you know, to be treated like some sort of cattle, you know, I mean, some some, you know, a quantity >> of of, you know, just a product. >> That's I I don't even think he he viewed them like that. I think it was even lower than that. I think this was a level of depravity that I have no concept of. normal people luckily don't have any concept of. But I I too did just speak with a survivor recently and that podcast is going to be coming out soon. There's a couple of them because we were here for a while. But you had mentioned it maybe 10 minutes ago talking about some of the tactics he would use and and the thing that blew me away when I was speaking to this Epstein survivor about his manipulation was how diabolical he was in studying it. So when he would he would traffic this woman who was barely a woman, she was 20, 21 to other men in Hollywood or other places mobiley, meaning he wouldn't be going with her or anything like that. He would just traffic >> her to them with the idea that, you know, she was going to get raped. >> And so she said that every time that she went and did one of these things, he would call her afterwards and he would say like, "So did you hook up with him?" which you know means rape by the way obviously and >> you know most of the time the answer was no and regardless of whether the answer was no or yes he would want to know the details to a tea every time it was like in a >> it's like a serial killer >> yes >> you know it sounds the lamb stuff >> yes it was and and in a sick parallel to the real world >> I was like oh my god this is like when Bill Bich and Tom Brady watch tape of defenses but he's watching >> and he wants to know for his own, you know, purient interest. You know, he gets off on this obviously, but also to realize what kind of power uh what kind of manipulation does he now possess over a a wealthy, powerful guy that he can use to his advantage? What's the blackmail? >> Yes. >> I hadn't even thought. >> He's keeping notes. >> Yeah. >> You know, he wants to be able to say, "Well, you know, how was your night with whatever the code name is? and he's got the response. And these guys were talking about this in the emails. >> Yeah. >> I mean, up until 17, 18, right up until 19 when he got popped, you know, the the the Peter Adia, the doctor, Peter. Yeah. >> Yeah. At um you know, did he take part in it? No, apparently not. But he was talking about it and he was chummy. Chummy with a guy who is who is running one of the biggest human trafficking operations in the history of the world. >> It's wild. Yeah. I I cuz again you got to go double check everything on like justice.gov when you see it on the internet because people are just floating all kinds of stuff like that. >> I was certain when I saw those screenshots the first time like oh well those must be fake ones. And then I go and look and I'm like, "Wow, he really said this shit." >> Yeah. >> To this guy. And >> and and and to, you know, I'm not defending it, but I mean, obviously I would like to think that he didn't know the extent of this that he just thought he was talking to a rich guy who was, >> you know, >> somebody he thought was kind of funny and interesting >> and and maybe he, you know, as a as a medical guy and an influencer, maybe, you know, he was targeted by Epstein, too. right >> now. You know, as you said, sometimes on your stings, you do run into doctors and lawyers. And I say that because these are people of means, if you will. >> A lot of times you don't. A lot of times it's someone who's not of means. They're all pedophiles. It's the same But >> there is a different scope. It's the same thing, but there's a different scope through which to look at it. To me, when you're talking about people who are literal masters of the universe and billionaires and heads of state or heads of bureaucracy or heads of academia or in industry, whatever it may be, you know, do you have a ton of experience ever looking at things like that or is that even kind of new to you? >> Well, I think it's new to me in terms of the the scope of the wealth and power involved in the Epstein case. I mean, as I mentioned, we did a big investigation on Peter Nygard. There's a lot of money involved there. A lot of corruption, a lot of, you know, delivering cash and a frozen fish to a government official. I mean, you know, a lot of people looking the other way. But in terms of the predator investigations that we do, the takedown investigations on True Blue, you know, to me, it's interesting when it's somebody of wealth or power or character or influence because you would think that that person should know better. It's it's it's no more of a crime than when a a lineman for the power company does it while you're staying up in a hotel in in rural Louisiana. I mean, it's it's the same damage caused to a child. >> So, I try to approach each of them the same way. I mean, obviously, you know, you've got a doctor who walks in after seeing 18 patients and while he was seeing 18 patients, took time to be texting somebody who was a 15-year-old girl, posing as a 15-y old girl, and send a picture of his penis and and then stop in his Range Rover to buy uh Oreos and red wine because the girl had braces and he had a fantasy about the Oreos being in the braces. I mean, obviously that adds layers of context to the story. And it's a doctor who's taken the hypocratic oath to cause no harm, and he's there to sexually abuse a 15-year-old girl. And, you know, yeah, I I think that makes for a a more interesting story. Is it any more dangerous than The Lineman? No. Same same danger. And they both make the movie. Nobody gets out of this. I don't, >> you know, prioritize any of these cases because of what they do for a living. you know, my producer and my executive producer sit down and we, you know, they we put these we edit them and put them out as they come. >> Now, we may change them around for whatever production or programming reason, but everybody makes the movie. >> Yeah. And I think on that level, you're right. >> I mean, everybody makes the movie. Nobody gets out, >> right? >> Now, we may have guys who don't talk and we may group them together, you know, three in an episode because the interviews are shorter for whatever reason, but nobody, you know, nobody gets out of this. who gets caught, >> right? And again, like you're talking about that range and people from way different backgrounds or means and things like that. And I agree, there's a level though that you don't get a chance to get >> it makes headlines when it's a doctor. I mean, you look at the New York Post today, the day that we record this, and there are two or three stories about prominent men getting caught getting child porn, CESAM. One is a doctor in Michigan, another is a a physician someplace else, but all prominent people who are shockingly engaging in the purchase and trafficking of child porn in one day. >> In one day, how what percentage do you think actually get caught? >> That's an excellent question. Um, and there's a theory that some of these guys want to get caught. And I've heard that in interviews over the years. You know, I'm relieved. Now I can get help. Now I can stop. In terms of percentage, it'd be a wild guess, but based upon the activity on the internet, I'd say maybe 20 30%. >> That's actually higher than I thought you were going to say. I mean, again, I'm just giving you an educated guess. I mean, maybe that's >> overly optimistic because I want to think that we catch more than we do, but in terms of guys seeking children for sex and actually, you know, doing something to physically do that, um, maybe 20 30%, but again, it's it's a guess at best. Do you think it for certainly not for everyone, but do you think for some people this is something that's curable or do you view it as incurable across the board? They have this feeling that's what it is. I I think the vast majority of cases are incurable, but I have seen, and we talk about this on the Predators I've Caught podcast, guys who, especially the younger guys, who, you know, did their punishment, whether it's a, you know, a month in the county jail or whatever it was, they registered as a sex offender, they went to their treatment, and now they're productive members of society. It happens. >> How do we know that? We we we know that because they're closely monitored. We know that because they have to report to a probation officer. We know that because they're registered. We know that because we keep track of their activities. So, is it 100%? No. Absolutely not. But these guys are going to work every day. They're doing a job. They're not offending. They've gone to therapy. They're young enough where they can rewire their brains a little bit. And people would argue with me that none of these guys can be fixed. But I think some of these guys act on impulses that, you know, with some work and therapy and and uh some monitoring, they can decide they're not going to do it again >> and discipline >> and discipline >> if they have it. See, that would that's an interesting word to use there because if if you say discipline the way maybe I'm taking it too literally, but that would mean that they have all those urges but they're disciplined to just not act on them or something which >> and that's exactly what I'm getting at. I get email. We have an email associated with the podcast, chrispredatorpodcast.com. And I have gotten at least a dozen over the five years we've done that podcast emails from men who say, "Look, I I don't want to use my name or I don't want to be identified, but I am telling you that I've had these urges for as long as I can remember. I go to therapy. I'm in a uh a normal adult relationship and I don't offend and I understand I have these these urges and I can't tell you exactly why but I do. I'm attracted to younger girls and I don't offend and you need to know that there are people out there who are like me. Now, have I verified everything in that email as being true? No. But it it ring it rings true to me that there are people out there who are that way. >> Maybe there's some of those people who are telling the truth. Maybe some of the other people fall in the category if they want to get caught and this is how they think they can do it to get their attention by emailing Chris Hansen. >> Yeah. Or they're jerking me around >> or they're jerking around, >> which is not out of the out of the possibility either. You don't know. But it's interesting that somebody would take the time to give me details about their life and if I wanted to find them, I could find them. >> Yeah. you know, and if I thought they were a danger to society, I would turn it over to law enforcement. I would I would do everything I could to prevent them from harming a child. I don't care. >> Yeah. >> You know, but if it's somebody being honest who at least there's no information that he's harmed a child, then, you know, I'd like to hear about it. >> Do you ask them about ever converse with them about where these urges come from? I have not and I should. >> Yeah, I I would >> I mean I'm working on an episode that involves this, but as you can imagine, you know, it it it takes a bit of a leap of faith on my part to to say, "Okay, is this guy jerking me around?" >> Right? >> How am I sure he's not offended? um they need to take a leap of faith and say, "All right, I'm going to go identify myself because I'm not going to take just a fake name. I I need to know I need to run a background check on these guys, you know, and so it's kind of gets stalled out in that that mediation part of it." And then as you're working on that, suddenly there's five other interviews you have to do. So, >> it's it's important. I should do it and and I will. Does it feel like sometimes with all of the awareness we have on just how widespread a problem like this is, does it feel like you're swimming against the current? Like it just gets worse despite all the great work you've clearly done to to help. Yeah, I try not to get overwhelmed by it. You know, I I've at a stage in life where I've been doing this long enough, you know, that I know a couple things to be true. One, you just got to do your best every day. Two, I I believe in the work. It's important. I I I wanted to be a television journalist virtually every day since the age of 15 and I pursued it. Um, and I I believe it's important and and you know, obviously at some point in life, you start to get addicted yourself to, you know, your ego gets addicted to the the attention and being relevant in a space. And I've been very fortunate to remain relevant for a very long time across three generations of viewers, followers, whatever you want to call people, and and to figure out a way to do stories in a in a manner that is captivating to people, >> right? And so you you take the predator stories and you have that currency or that value to your viewers, your people, and you try to translate that into other topics as well. >> But I'm I'm blessed to have, you know, been in the game so long and see no end to it. Not just catching predators, but all kinds of other stories and other material and other things that I do. Um but I I you know it's a unique thing because you know I have this discussion with my sons who are in the business one behind the camera one in front of the camera and um behind the camera does some work with me but also does you know commercials for Microsoft and Fizer and you know movies and you know there's got a lot of different things going on. the uh the the son who's in front of the camera is in more of a traditional route, which is what I was in, right? When I went to NBC, I didn't go there to do predator investigations. We did stories, >> right, >> for news magazines. And it could be the Oklahoma City bombing. It could be 9/11. It could be a lot of breaking news or, you know, political news or the impeachment of Bill Clinton. All that stuff. >> You did that for a lot of years. >> For a lot of years and then, you know, pitched to um the Predator series. And I think at that point you you either do it once and keep going or you pursue that that sort of reporting. And obviously I took a different road. That road doesn't land you at 60 minutes as a correspondent, right? >> It lands you in your own world, your own network. And I'm comfortable with that. I mean, I don't know of a better set of circumstances that I could have than the one I currently possess. I mean, who at 66 years old has their own streaming network which produces Takedown that comes out every single Thursday, two podcasts with unique content every single Monday and Wednesday, and then documentaries, >> right? >> A dozen in the works, including the Roblox documentary that is out now. >> Well, you're also like a oneofone brand. Like when people think about this kind of thing and like >> catching predators, it's like the next search on Google is Chris Hansen, >> right? But I don't get to do a cooking show in Italy. But I knew that going into it. >> I think you're doing more important work. >> I agree. I agree. But you also, you know, there there's a part of you as you go through the business where you think, well, I'll do a lot of different things. And we did for many years at Dline do a lot of things. That show has morphed into a murder mystery procedural. >> Nothing wrong with it. great show does very well. My friends still work at that show doing those murder mysteries. Is that what I personally want to do? No. I found a a niche and a purpose that is tailor made for me and I'm very comfortable doing it the way I do it. Those guys may not be comfortable doing it. >> I mean, there's no uh jealousy or animosity or I'm better than you or you're better than me or I wish we would. It's just the way it happened. We're all very good friends. We talk all the time. I see him at Crime Con, >> right? >> You know, >> I think I I'll actually disagree with you on one thing, though. Obviously, like you're perfectly comfortable right where you are and doing your thing, but I do think if you woke up tomorrow, maybe I wouldn't want to see you do a cooking show personally, but like, you know, if you woke up tomorrow and said, "I think I'm going to I think, not that anyone would want to do this these days, but I think I'm going to go cover the politics in DC." people be like, "Yo, Chris Hansen's covering what's going on in watch." >> I mean, it's refreshing to hear, you know, um, I got a lot of people who depend on me to do the kind of work I do, right? And so that plays into it as well. >> Yes. >> But I think as this evolves, for instance, as as True Blue, our streaming network, grows, I think we're going to have, you know, the ability to do a lot of different things. And I think as we become bigger uh I mean we have documentaries and projects in the works on on different topics and I think there's going to be the ability to to get involved in a lot of things and I I look I'm at a great stage in life you know my kids are grown >> right my wife is very supportive of this work. >> You're 66 too >> 66 years old >> doing well >> I think so hang hanging there for a fellow of a certain age but you know you adapt as you go along to preserve yourself too. >> Yeah. You know, >> now you said you wanted to do this since you were 15. >> Yes. >> I mean, look, you got the look, you got the voice. You always had that, but like what was it that what was the what was the push? >> I grew up about a mile away from where Jimmy Hoffa was kidnapped. >> Whoa. >> In suburban Detroit. And when it happened, the local police in Bloomfield Township and the FBI and national correspondents and local reporters and Detroit, you know, was a very sophisticated media market. It has been for for many years. But when I was there, and I worked in in Detroit for 10 years, I mean, the the anchormen were larger than life. The reporters were, you know, local celebrities and and very good journalists and they understood television. Um, and Detroit at one time was the seventh largest market in the nation. you know, it was it was, you know, New York, LA, Chicago, >> Boston, Philly, and then Detroit, you know, and and the city of lost population. So, it's it's changed now. It's in the top 20 still, I believe. But, you know, I became fascinated with the story, obsessed with it. I used to ride my bike up there and uh you know, the crime scene, it was all happening. And so, I was bit by the bug then. And you know, after that, the Oakland County child killing case, which was a huge case when I was in high school, was Oakland County child >> Oakland County child killer. Four children disappeared in the span of like 18 months. Found dead. They were all related to one or two potential killers. I'd done stories on it when I was in Detroit. Keep track of it now. Was just on a radio show a few weeks ago talking about it in Detroit. It's the 50th year anniversary. Knew the family of one of the kids who was taken. >> Yeah, there it is. >> Timmy King. >> And some theories. I mean, I chased around as a local reporter in Detroit. We went to Wyoming to chase a lead. We went, you know, we did a lot of different things on this story. And technically, I mean, there are people who think they know who did it, both of whom are dead. >> Oh, he never they never got caught, though. >> No, it's been one of those enduring mysteries. Now, people have their theories. So, you know, with all that having gone on, as I was starting to watch local news a lot and read all the newspapers and and uh the main anchor man at the ABC station, Bill Bonds, who is a great character, great journalist, uh was best friends with my best friend's father. And so I was around him a lot. And um you know, went off to college and signed up for the radio station doing news and and I was a reporter. You know, you mentioned it earlier though, talking about this with serial killers. You drew the parallel in some of the mentality between them and the predators that you deal with. But I think sometimes we forget about how the whole serial killer phenomenon rose up, you know, in the ' 60s, '7s, and 80s and still unfortunately continues today. But like when you look at the guys like the BTK's or this guy we never caught the Oakland County child killer a similar question what I asked you about child predators earlier like what what bears someone to put that in their soul and become that thing >> you know u silence of the lambs I mean who who you know how do you start in this John Wayne Gasey um you know the the uh notorious uh smiley face killer, >> you know, in Oregon. I interviewed him face to face. This is a big dude, too. We did a piece for DLine years ago, and you know, you're sitting as close as you and I are sitting with this guy with leg irons and handcuffs on and um his daughter did a documentary recently. But what drives him? combination of psychiatric reasons and you know they'll tell you a lot of different stories. My mom hated me. My mom was a prostitute. You know I sometimes these guys start as peeping toms become rapists and then they want to kill. I mean it's it's >> it's it's I don't necessarily think there's a single point failure in any of this stuff. It's a combination of things and like I mean there are people far more expert than I when it comes to child killers and serial killers of course but you know what motivates them to do this they killing themselves when they were at a young age when something happened to prevent the horrible things that happened to them later in life I you know I don't know there's there's a lot of ways to look at it and smarter guys than me study it >> but it it's it's shocking to me and today you don't see him get you see as many serial killers today because they don't get away with it for as long as they did then. The advancements in DNA and and surveillance. Yeah. Surveillance. I mean, you know, coming over here from Midtown Manhattan today, I was probably captured on video a dozen times, if not more. You know, you can't get it's hard to get away with a crime. And that's why the Nancy Guthrie case, I think, is so >> Yeah. What is going on there? >> Mystifying. I don't know. I my heart just breaks for that family. I mean, I think of my mom in that situation, you know, an 84 year old woman >> and, you know, so overwhelmed and mystified. Why is somebody doing this to me? And, >> you know, to me, it doesn't seem like a robbery gone bad because why would you take a woman with you, >> right? And if if God forbid, you know, she died during the course of a robbery, why take some why create a bigger criminal problem for you? If it's a kidnapping, why hasn't there been more of an effort to get money from it? You know, I don't think whoever pulled it off was very bright or it wasn't an astute criminal who wears the gun in front of them like the way he was wearing it. Um, the problem is dumb criminals can be dangerous and deadly. Criminals are criminals. So, was it a kidnapping where unfortunately something happened to Nancy Guthrie and they no longer have evidence, proof of life? Maybe. I don't know the answer to it. I don't have a strong gut feeling in this case like I do in so many others. Um, was she targeted because of what her daughter did for a living? I I don't think she was in a position where she created a lot of anger towards her, but maybe there was some thought that she had money and they could it was an easy mark. But you think of this poor woman lived in the house for 50 years, widowed early, took in, you know, had her mother living with her, her her uh her brother who who uh you know had some challenges and they had a happy life, >> right? and she went to work every day, >> you know, raised kids, >> one of whom became, you know, Savannah Guthrie, right, >> who I knew at NBC. >> Um, but I don't think anybody targeted her because anything her daughter did. I mean, if somebody comes after me, I understand why, right? I've messed with a lot of people, >> but and I'm not taunting anybody to do that. I don't need that to happen. You know, I I just I think it's going to be a a confluence of dunes that did something horrible and it led to something very bad happening to an 84y old woman. And I look, I talk to law enforcement about it every day. I'm not out there covering it, but you know, I've had incidents where I've had to deal with Walmart security in the past and they are very good at what they do. They're very committed and I can tell you that they're working around the clock running all kinds of AI programs to figure out, you know, where could the back the backpack have been bought? When did anybody buy a backpack and a face mask and a jacket at the same time? Did, you know, they're clicking away at this stuff non-stop. And every time something like this happens, they enhance their algorithm to be able to say, "Okay, we're looking for somebody who is between 5'9 and 5'11 who might have been at the store, you know, but there, you know, tons of Walmart stores. You imagine the footprint of Walmart and Sam's Club. There's good and bad that the search field is enormous, but so is the data field, >> right? >> So, I I have a feeling that they're going to figure this out." >> And the other thing is, you know, the reality is not all sheriff's departments are created equal. And I'm not casting any shade on the the sheriff's office down there, >> but to me, and again, this is just me, if I'm running a media for a law enforcement agency, I'm not going to be doing this scattershot interview here and there. I mean, I every day or every other day, there should be a briefing, right? Sometimes the sheriff should be there and sometimes it should be the press person and they read off a list of what's the latest. Done. Mhm. >> But it it just it comes off so herkyjerky. And again, you know, I haven't solved the case, so why should I be, you know, critical of the guys who are trying to solve it? I know they're working hard on it, but I don't uh I think they'll solve it. Sadly, it's gotten into a long hall, >> but just whenever you think that I mean, remember that, you know, those those poor kids who were killed, the college kids killed in in Idaho. >> Yes. >> You know, everybody was starting to these cops don't know what they're doing. new small town campus cop blah blah blah blah and turns out all along they were on the on the hunt and they got this guy Coberger. >> So hopefully there's stuff going on that we don't know about. Hopefully it it comes to fruition and and whoever did this uh will get caught and and as Savannah Guthrie has said in her videos, you you just have to believe there's nothing bad that happens by not believing in the most optimistic outcome, right? But with each passing day, it becomes more challenging obviously to be optimistic. So >> yeah, I can't imagine. >> I hope they whoever did it, I hope they find them and they rot in hell. But um it just none of it makes a lot of sense to me. >> I can't figure out if it's just bizarre because the crime's bizarre and you know they caught themselves one foot ahead of law enforcement at the beginning or because >> it's going to be some fluke. It's going to be some fluke. that, you know, led them to commit this crime. And it's it's been a fluke that they've been able to get away with it, >> right? A camera missed him. A camera was out. I mean, look at the fact that they were able to reconstruct that video >> is nothing short of amazing. I can't remember. The the the camera at the door that he tried to cover up and then took >> and they were able to go back and work with Microsoft to get that that video reconstructed, the video of him at the front door. That wasn't an automatic grab. >> They had to work. The FBI had to go to uh Microsoft and and get that to reconstitute, you know, what was in the in the cloud and lead it back to that particular camera that they don't have. So, they didn't find the camera is my understanding. They were able to find information that was in the cloud from that camera because she hadn't subscribed to the service that would save it. So, I mean just that and you know then you got to hope that like in so many cases somebody sees some tick or some characteristic of the guy on the video that they say, "Oh, that's Frankie." You know, that's I know exactly who that is. That's what solves these cases. Somebody's got to drop a dime. >> Now, you were saying it's amazing the tools that they have now to be able to >> It's hard to get away with a crime. It's hard to get away with a crime anymore. I mean, people try it, but and it happens, but uh you know, um somebody's going to know about it. It's just whether or not does that person come forward or do they find that evidence? >> What about for what you do though? Cuz like this started off like you said in the beginning, it was three different types of chat rooms and whatever back then. Now there's a million places to do it. Where have you seen things, whether it be AI or other types of technology, assist law enforcement or even with you when you're working with law enforcement on these types of cases? >> Well, you know, we can track phone numbers, right? Not every number can be tracked. There are ways to get, you know, fake numbers or or, you know, VOIPE numbers, but when we have a real number, they can run it through a database and we know what car is arriving, we know who it is, where they got a criminal history, where they got a concealed weapons permit. Um, that's 50% of the time we know who's coming. >> Now, can they figure out a way around that? Yeah. >> And then it's a bit of a mystery. then I've got my hands full because I got to figure it out while I'm sitting across from or standing across from. But, you know, we always do. By the end of the story, we know exactly who who this person is. Um, challenging mostly because there's so many platforms upon which adults can approach children. You know, it's it's you can't be in every one of these things. you know, there's dating sites, there's, you know, some some of these crimes are happening on generally accessible social media platforms like, you know, Facebook and um, you know, Instagram, you know, the meta. I mean, we've had horrible cases where the just the guys cruise along finding girls to chat with and whoever hits back, you know, they look for profiles where the child is potentially vulnerable and they pray on that. And in the case of Roblox, I >> was just going to ask. >> Yeah. You know, we've been investigating predators exploding kids on Roblox for the last 7 months or so. >> For people out there who don't understand Roblox or what it is, would you mind just explaining that? >> Roblox is a multi-tiered gaming platform. So, there are games on Roblox already that Roblox has designed that they offer and creators can make games and put them on Roblox. And as a user, you can also create a game and get permission and put it up there, too. >> So, you can it's a video game within a video game, right? And so, there all these different games that kids can play and it looks pretty innocent. Some of these characters look like Lego characters for a Lego movie. It is marketed towards kids as young as five. And if played properly with adult supervision, it creates amazing communities with very healthy experiences and allows people to express their creativity. wildly successful multibillion dollar publicly traded company in Sonteo California led by the you know the co-creators of it but we have come across cases dating back 15 years where children were approached by adults and groomed and prayed upon >> how did how does that happen >> it happens in a couple different ways now I need to say at the onset that recently Roblox has enacted some safety features including facial recognition and age verification that should prevent some of this from happening, but as you know, children can find workarounds, adults can find workarounds, and there are a lot of games that are kind of shady on there, you know, and then there's the connection between Roblox and Discord. >> Roblox and Discord. >> Roblox is a server on Discord. A lot of players go back and forth. There are Roblox communities on Discord. >> So, there's this relationship there. And we started getting a lot of reports about adults posing as children on Roblox, adults uh inducing children to create child porn, to abuse others. There's the 764 element of it where 764, the Neilistic Group you're familiar with. um goes on Roblox to create relationships and to abuse. >> They're they are >> they're everywhere. >> Oh my. Yeah. But that group, holy >> And I don't know. I I know people say I say, "What drives them?" Well, they're neists. You know, they're just out to create chaos and harm people. Well, what do they get from that? Well, they get to harm people, but what does it do for them to harm people? They're just that way. I mean, I interviewed a dad um for a recent episode of of Have a Sey with Chris Hansen and he was so powerful and his daughter was on Roblox and was co-opted by some of these 764 guys and ultimately she committed suicide and you know the grief and the guilt and the reconstruction of it. Not only did they cause her to commit suicide, they convinced her to to live stream suicide attempts. He finds this out later. Then they start picking on him, the dad, and harassing him just for the the the the sake of doing it after she died. Before and after. I This was an ongoing thing. So we divert from from from Roblox itself. But so kids were getting abused by predators in Roblox. We start digging into it. I find a detective in Marian County, Florida, Henrik Austin, who is one of the national experts on this. And in one short period of time, just in Marian County, Florida, they arrested a young man who had abused on Roblox at least a dozen kids and probably more. Then we find the victim, a 10-year-old girl of a Roblox predator who is in the UK. So, if this is going on in Marian County, Florida, what's going on in the rest of the world? And then we learn about a young man named Schle, who I'm sure you're familiar with. He was a Yeah. YouTuber. He was a a Roblox prodigy at 10, 11 years old. He was then abused by somebody on Roblox and he was suicidal, ended up in the hospital, came back and has made it his mission to expose predators on Roblox. How >> just just for and you know, and I'm not saying like go into graphic details and stuff like that, but when you say someone like Schle got abused on Roblox, what are what are you referring to? I'm referring to somebody who was a well-known creator who decided to abuse their power dynamic and try to convince Schlepp to do certain things that he apparently did not do. But but but when he wouldn't do things and and when I talk about things in general on on on Roblox, there are predators who try to get children to take pictures of themselves or do things for their gratification, right? So, and this is a common theme. So, Schle as a young man, young boy becomes suicidal, goes to the hospital, great parents to get him through it, and he decides he's going to, you know, expose some of these people in Roblox. You think that Roblox would embrace that? And they've been back and forth on having him a part of their team and not having him a part of the team right now. They they don't want him a part of the team. And they claim that he's going after people more associated with Discord than Roblox. Schle would argue that look, it matters not that people on on Discord have presence have a presence on Roblox and it's it's often one and the same, right? If they got a server over there, people are recruiting people over there. It's the same thing. And then we find out that Schlepp is represented by a law firm who at the beginning of our investigation this summer had 500 cases of people exploring potential legal action against Roblox because of being prayed upon. Since that time, they they now have 3,000 cases. >> 3,000. And then we start to find out that attorneys general across the country are investigating and swinging roadblocks as well. So you've got the attorney general of Louisiana who we interviewed. You got the attorney general of the state of Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Texas, you know, all these attorneys general are going after Roblox for not keeping children safe on their platform. Now, Roblox held two or three different background briefings with me for the story, including one with their chief security officer, Matt Kaufman. Gave me a lot of information, very useful. We use it in the story, but they have thus far declined and do an on camera interview. >> And I push pretty hard because I I know that it's it's more fair to Roblox if there's a face attached to this, right? You're not just putting up a statement on a graphic on a screen. You you can talk to somebody. You can have a conversation with somebody just like I did for background. But they've refused. And so now the, you know, the first episode, the first hour of our documentary is is out on True Blue and people can see it and make up their minds for themselves. >> Do you think they refuse because >> they're afraid of the Hansen? They feel like you're gonna get them dead the rights or because they're just being too corpority and going behind the shield. >> They're afraid. I I I don't know whether they're afraid because I know more than other journalists know who ask them questions. They tend to like interviews in comfortable tech settings where they can talk about new games and growth of engagement. Then in more mainstream journalism, they like to go on shows where the interviews are two to three minutes. So there's not a lot of background checks. They don't want me to ask them why. For instance, they won't allow law enforcement to conduct investigations on their platform. >> Why? Yeah. Why do you think they're not letting them? >> Well, because I'm sure there are privacy concerns. They don't want to get the image that, you know, am I talking to another player? Am I talking to a cop? And to me, if you want to send a message to predators on your platform, you let law enforcement in on it and you you shake them up a little bit. I mean, there are people on Roblox who are mad at me, mad at Schle for even looking into this. They think it's a parental responsibility and we should be able to do whatever we want, play whatever game we want on Roblox, and if a kid gets in trouble, their parents should have been keeping a closer eye on them. That's one of the It's a minority, but there are people who I see the snitty little comments on on X. I don't pay much attention to him, but you know, they'll say something about Schlab. They'll say, I mean, look, it's very easy. Make it as safe as you can. And in terms of doing an interview, why would you not sit down and say, "Look, Chris, here's what we've done." Boeing did it when we investigated crashes of the 737. >> When when did you do that? >> Back in the late 90s for DLine. >> So, they let you in. >> They took me to the factory, showed me the how they make the plane, showed me the tail, showed me the thing they were doing to make it safer. >> Is this like after This is after the >> PWA and all that. >> No, it was that was a different plane. This was a crash that occurred in uh Pittsburgh. >> Okay. >> And there were other incidents involving the 737. And so we did an investigation. Boeing, to its credit, had us come in, shot the plane being built, did all the stuff, and then sat down with an interview and said, "Look, this is what we're doing. We're not convinced that this actually caused the fatal crash, but we're going to make sure this is the safest airplane in the air because it is the workhorse of the American fleet. >> And then people can make up their own mind. If I were Roblox, I would lay out all the safety measures and answer the questions, the critical ones truthfully, and then look at me and say, "And Chris, remember this. We're not committing these crimes. Predators are." >> Right? >> And a story. So, I'm trying to draw some parallels in my head. It It's a similar type of situation to like Facebook letting police in to take a look at crimes that happen on their platform because bad actors come on and use an open >> Well, here's here's just to be clear now. The folks at Roblox, like in all these other social media platforms, are mandated by Congress to voluntarily report inappropriate contact between children and adults, sexually charged content, CSAM, all that. They're they're supposed to report incidents of this that they find to the National Center of Missing Exploited Children. NickMick then farms these referrals out to law enforcement. the the National Center for Missing Exploited Children. >> Okay. >> So, they get a tip on children being exploited >> and that goes from Facebook, whatever to or in this case, Roblox to Nickmick to law enforcement. And they do that and there are cases that have been uh made because Roblox reported this as they're supposed to. But why not let law enforcement go on and and conduct their own investigations? Why not create a chilling environment for for predators? So, there's another parallel I'm thinking of in my head about this, and it's not a perfect one, but you remember the whole San Bernardino shooter iPhone thing >> where Tim Cook was like, "Shit, I really want to unlock that iPhone for you, but that sets a precedent about privacy laws in the future for people who might be innocent and things like that, which really diff you're you're stuck between >> I understand it, but if I'm Tim Cook, I'm going to say this is a mass shooting and we have to catch the guy, right? And so we're going to we're going to make a corporate decision and I'm going to be a good corporate citizen and help law enforcement and I'm going to do this >> right. So he's the CEO. He can do it. >> He can here. I I understood where he was coming from on setting precedent though. That said, this is this isn't my wheelhouse to know what the rights and and laws are here. But is there a way that Roblox could allow law enforcement to monitor the app and anytime they come across something that therefore is not actually something illegal or it's perfectly fine, the data from anything they collected on those people is required to be deleted and not held. Meaning >> I'm sure there's a way to do it. I don't even think it needs to go that far. I think if they're allowed to go do a sting here and there or do, you know, an occasional investigation, it sends a message just like our predator investigation send to the community, right? >> That we're going to be proactive. We're not going to wait until there's a victim. We're going to find these guys before there's a victim. We're going to use decoys and we're going to send a missile out there and the missile is going to hopefully be a deterrence to predatory activity. It's that simple. >> I mean, that's why they do these things. That's why we do these things. >> Yeah. How much of the roadblocks, like you were citing the 764 examples and getting kids to send awful material and stuff like that or do awful acts, how much of roadblocks then translates also to being groomed for meetups in the real world? Like how big of a problem? >> There was a case just in the last couple weeks. I interviewed the sheriff of Martin County, Florida. Two girls, sisters, teenagers were in contact with a 19-year-old man from the Midwest, Idaho I believe. And uh he convinced them that he could provide a better life than what they were having at home. And there was some challenge in the household, but nothing horrible. They were being beaten or abused. And so they he groomed them, drove all the way down, met them at a convenience store, and was going to take them back and live together with them back in his home. And the the word got out the parents were apoplelectic that these girls were missing. Called the sheriff's office. The sheriff says, "Who's what what what uh electronic product were they using?" Well, we told them to stay off of uh Roblox because, you know, we thought they were up to no good. Well, let me see the tablet. They redownload Roblox and they're able to and Snapchat. And actually, it went from Roblox to Snapchat. So, I think they they downloaded Snapchat again and the conversations were there. So, they're able to identify him and they they uh were able to track him to a convenience store where his photo was taken video-wise and there was a picture of his plate. So, they were able to report that figuring that he was headed back to his home. They put out an APB and the Georgia Highway Patrol picked him up and the girls were uninjured thankfully. But this this happens with some frequency and the initial conversation starts on Roblox because that's where kids are. And again, parents can can u shut down this chat feature and you're not supposed to be able to chat if your age is is too far apart. But kids figure that out. >> Yes. >> And this has been going on for 15 years now. We interview a man who's now 30, children of his own, military guy, guy can deadlift 716 pounds, Woody. And he was abused 15 years ago as a boy on Roblox and was brought to tears. This tough guy was telling the story about, you know, being groomed by this predator, meeting him. Turns out he was an older guy and he tried to sexually assault him. Oh my god. >> And now he's, you know, got legal action against Roblox. >> How did we always use this term righteously so when we're describing how these predators win over the trust of their victims and it's called grooming, but there's all different ways that it occurs. What on roadblocks where you're dealing with something on the internet, which is also like what you've dealt with in your >> It's the same grooming. I mean, it it follows a template. It's either an older guy pretending to be somebody who's younger or it's an older guy who's going to co-opt and convince this child that he can provide something that the child needs or wants and little by little breaks down the traditional barriers that exist between adults and children in our society and convinces them to do something they shouldn't do. Is there a common kind of thing or like key that gets unlocked? That's a bad way to put it. Where the Rubicon every time it's the moment it gets crossed or does it really >> I think there are similarities but you know each case is different. Each child is vulnerable in their own way. Are they from a broken home? Do they are they currently having disagreements with their parents? Are their hormones raging? Do they do they want to be viewed as >> somebody older? Do they want freedom? Do they want money? Do they want jewelry? I mean, it's it's these guys know how to push the buttons. And the problem is is that this child may be in just a momentary uh location of vulnerability, but if the predator hits them at the exact right moment, it's a disaster. >> That's right. >> Right. Two days other either way, they're over it. You know, it's like sextortion. You know, the next documentary we have at True Blue is extortion. We examine all these cases where young men are or boys are online and they think they're talking to an attractive young woman and they trade naughty photos and it turns out it's not a young woman, it's a extortionist in Nigeria and now the guy wants money and the kid's got $500 in gift cards and gives all that away and then there's no more and he says, "Well, you know, f you. Kill yourself." These kids are so caught up in the moment. They think this guy is gonna, you know, publish the naughty photos and they can't get it out of their mind that this is a momentary thing. In two weeks, you know, Graham is not going to see it. In two weeks, nobody's going to care. But in the moment, the social media footprint, their presence, their identity is so intertwined with their ego that they don't see it. And and 15, 16 year old boys are killing themselves. I've sat with four sets of parents. There's a state legislature in South Carolina, Brandon Guffy, son killed himself. Same thing. And he goes and talks to people all the time about this. He tells his kids, he goes, "Look, first of all, your junk's probably out there already if you're, you know, so don't even don't even think about that being a problem because nobody cares. And you can go to NickMeg, National Center for Missing Exploited Children, and they'll help you scrub the internet of anything you may have sent inadvertently or anything you were tricked into sending. >> They can do that. >> They can do that. But the point of it is these kids who kill themselves because of a momentary sense of shame, if they wrote it out for another week, they're applying to colleges. >> Yeah. >> They're back with their girlfriend. I'm stupid. And so to me, a lot of this comes back to parents. >> Yep. >> And parents have to say, not I'm not blaming parents, but parents have to create an environment where if their child gets lured into something, they feel comfortable enough to say, "Look, I effed up. I need your help to get out of this." And the parents not going to yell at him. They can call him stupid after the fact or tease him about it or whatever. It becomes a joke at some point. What's not a joke is when the kid shoots himself in the head. >> Yeah. It's not a joke when the kid hangs himself in the closet. And man, I tell you, having kids of my own, you know, being out of the danger zone, nothing would ruin me, would destroy me like the death of a child. I could do I'm a tough guy. I could deal with a whole lot of stuff. But losing a child at 15, 16 years old, anytime, you know, a child's death procedure is it is it is lifealtering. And the fact that they even get through this and can be advocates for other kids and other parents is nothing short of amazing to me. And I have nothing but enormous respect for all those parents who deal with this and for those who sat for the documentary which is like I said coming out after Roblox. >> Yeah, we'll have that link down below by the way. But yeah, I I can't I don't have kids of my own yet. I really look forward to having them. And you can't know what that's like until you do it. >> And I, you know, I hope I I never know what it's like and I hope no other parent has to ever go through it again, but it's it's >> it's absolutely the most painful thing I could imagine. >> What about when you are, of course, you feel awful for every parent you sit with and they're devastated and that that's that that's that's a given. But how difficult is it when you're sitting with these parents who are devastated after the fact and it's one where you're hearing the story and you're seeing all the places where like they should have had more guard rails on there or they should have known or they should have monitored this this or that more. >> Well, you ask the question in a very sensitive way because it'll elicit a response that'll help another parent from know how to not go through it. But, you know, I don't go out to blame any parents. And, you know, I don't know what my kids did 24/7. I'm sure they had close calls. I had close calls that my parents never found out about. >> I mean, >> yeah. >> Inches from death. I grew up in an era where, you know, you walked out and with a BB gun and a bow and arrow and went to go play around in the woods for 6 hours when you're 10 years old. I mean, you know, we we weren't >> we weren't very tightly regulated, you And as the the oldest of three and the only boy, you know, you know, there were elements of your life where you were sort of raised by wolves. You know, you had your buddies and your pals, it was, you know, lord of the flies. We had a ball. Nobody ever got seriously hurt. Did we come close? >> Did you almost lose an eye? Did you almost crash a mini bike? Yeah. All that stuff. >> But for the grace of God, you know, and you've got to count on that. You need a little luck raising a kid. And and but sometimes you don't have that lucky stroke. And sometimes the kid makes a bad decision. And sometimes you're not there to catch it. And so all you can do is try to create an environment where the kid feels open enough where he can say, "Hey, you know, I got a problem here. You need to we need to get this fixed up." And then that's that's the best advice I can give. Um, and and even that's not foolproof, but that's why I harp on all these safety issues on Roblox. And Roblox is going to be all mad and, you know, we do more than any other platform. And fine, great, good on you. But let's let's tighten this up. And by the way, let's talk about it. Let's hear from these victims. Let's hear from the lawyers trying to hold the company accountable because that discussion creates awareness and a dialogue that needs to take place just like the predator investigations, the takedown investigations we do, all of this stuff. It's about awareness and dialogue. And if I can light a fire under people and get them to talk about it with their kids, then I've won. Well, it's also you make a great point that the company should want to sit down with you and should want to be transparent to fix the problem and that's a mistake on their >> and they do sit down with other people but again it tends to be you know with people in the technical >> friendly. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't count. I'm saying like with someone like you who's really trying to solve this problem. If I could see outside of you, if I could see from their perspective with some of these class action lawsuits and stuff like that with lawyers, you know, those lawyers are doing their job and they're representing usually families who whose kids were victim suffered in one way or another. >> Exactly. So, I'm not blaming the lawyers or anything like that, but I could see from the company's perspective how it might get like scary to to even address. understand that. But you also see a pattern of behavior on the part of Roblox where they, you know, they're trying to hire the uh spokesman for the, you know, Republican Attorneys General Association. You know, they they try to get people in law enforcement to be on their team. They donate money to the Alliance of Attorneys General. You know, they want to be able to say, "We're we're the we're the solution here." You know, they're throwing a lot of money around, you know, when when they should maybe be throwing a little more awareness around, I think. >> Yeah. Now, what I mean, you talked about it a little bit ago that there's tools kids are they're smart with tech. They can just get around it and stuff, but you know, that's that's one of the scariest things about becoming a parent for me is like it just gets worse every year. All the different resources and tools and places someone can get hurt. And you do, like you said, you got to have some luck as a parent, too. You can't put a helmet on your kid and have them go through life that way or be a helicopter. They have to be able to fend for themselves on >> and they need to learn those skills. I mean, you know, I always look at it this way. You know, cavemen babies survived and saber-tooth tigers roam the earth. You know, civilization was initiated to to continue and you know, you know, there's a god and most days things go well. But, you know, bad stuff can happen. Kids can get prayed upon on games like Roblox. 84 year old women can disappear, you know, for for no fault of their own. I mean, bad stuff happens out there. And the more we talk about it, but don't live, you know, behind locked gates all the time. You have to go live your life. But you have to be aware of these potential things. And you're right, it it gets more challenging every year. I mean, we had my oldest son was who's 34 now. You know, when he was in high school, there's World of Warcraft >> and you had to be on a computer to do it. You phones weren't that sophisticated and tablets weren't really around then. So, he had to sit on the computer and do it in a common area of the house. And it was bedtime. It was bedtime. Well, I can't. I'm letting the fellas down. Well, who are the fellas? Well, they're my guys playing. Get to bed. End of story. >> Right. >> Play another day. Yeah, there'll be more fellows to play with. But, you know, now there God, it's just overwhelming. And And I And I think it's important for parents not to try not to be overwhelmed by the technology. You limit your children's exposure. You limit the methods that can be used for adults to approach your child. Turn off the chat function. >> Look over their shoulder. Understand the games. You know, if it's a bathroom game, the kid's not playing it. >> If the game, you know, where there are games like that that have been on Roblox historically, the bathroom game, and >> bathroom game, >> you walk your character walks into a bathroom and sees different things and you go to different levels and it's it's sexually >> Yeah. aggressive and it's not appropriate for kids, but there was a point where kids had access to that. >> Now, Roblox has indicated that's tried to shut that down, but you know, in a in a in a platform like that >> or in Discord or in a lot of different places, you know, there there are dark corners of those platforms where kids can get into trouble. >> Well, that's the thing and that's what's really disappointing that's coming through in what you're saying. And it's not just a transparency or the lack of transparency access, but or or or point that you made. It's like, >> you know, even when I tried to play devil's advocate two minutes ago, >> you you you can cite the sources of the they do. It sounds like they don't really want to solve the problem. >> I don't think Roblox wants predators harming children on their platform. I don't think so. I mean, these people have kids, too, right? >> But how much do they want? >> But I think in general, you know, anything that limits engagement is bad for business. And so I don't believe they found the right balance. Now again, these things that they have done have been helpful and I'm sure they prevented some engagement between adults and children, but you know, I mean, maybe I'm asking too much of the company. I don't think I am. And and this has been going on for 15 years. And the other question is, had we not been barking about this for the last 6, eight months, had these lawsuits not been filed, had these attorneys general not gotten involved, um, would this have happened? I mean, would they have made the the the um advancements in security that they have made? I would argue no. >> And again, you're letting you're letting a company legislate its own safety. >> Yeah. >> This is also a place where like my brain now I want to look at everything. >> How do you think I can up to my eyeballs for seven, eight months now? >> I can only imagine. But like >> I mean just to try to understand it, you know, and and to you know, thankfully, you know, we've got people who dig into this, who make it their business to be, you know, on the inside of it and um you know, both in law enforcement and and um in lawmaking and but you know, there there I had a conversation with uh the Florida attorney general, sharp guy. Who's >> that? And it's James Omire. Okay. And um he's not in the first episode, but he'll be in the second episode. And I did a podcast episode with him, too. People can check it out. Um >> yeah, let's make sure we down below. >> It's Have a Seat with Chris Hansen and Predators I've caught. And we have uh video versions on the Have a Seat with Chris Hansen YouTube channel. But he was very careful in the course of my interview, but indicated that there may be some information that was requested via criminal subpoena, right? You subpoena these things in criminal cases that may have not been properly turned over. Now, he was very careful, so I don't want to overstep into there, but it sounded to me, as somebody who's covered these cases for a very long time, that there could potentially be liability there based upon the Florida Attorney General's investigation. Um, so we'll see how that plays out. That's something to think about, huh? >> Well, yeah. I mean, I'm I'm I'm glad there's some out there who are really trying to do something about it. And it's it's and it's not just it's it's Florida, it's Louisiana, uh it's uh Kentucky, Tennessee, I believe South Carolina, I I think it's up to about eight different states now. It does concern me though, like I remember three years ago Sean Ryan when he was on my show in episode 148, he was he was talking all about this and it's like you can't even believe this is real. But you have legislators in some other states who are trying to argue to use like terminology like maps, like minor attractive. >> Yeah, I that's that's just that shouldn't even be in the >> right >> in the in the sphere of a discussion. There's no legitimacy to predators, pedophiles, criminals being classified as somebody who's got, you know, some sort of legitimate attraction to a minor. We create laws to protect minors from being sexually exploited. And some of the ages may seem arbitrary to predators, but the reality is we have to draw a line. And society does the best it can to to protect children from being tricked into situations where they're sexually exploited. And that's why we have an age of consent. And if a child is below that age of consent, even if they say yes, they can't give permission, right, to be sexually exploited. >> All right? And that's why we have these laws. So here's here's a weird one that I think about a lot now cuz it's actually extremely realistic. So in a lot of marriages in America, there's a common age difference of 2 or 3 years. Yeah. Like there's a very common trend of not always but you know it's like common that the husband will be you know 35 and the wife will be 33 or 32. Now imagine they're high school sweethearts right? The husband meets the wife when he's a junior and she's a freshman and they begin dating and they're teenagers and they're interacting as teenagers do. Then one day he's a senior and he turns 18 and she's 16. What what's the Well, typically there's a sunset clause in these. So in other words, you know, the age of consent is 16. If you're talking about somebody who's within two years of that. If you're talking about somebody who's >> 5 years older, then then it's a different set of circumstances. So that >> the laws try to address that situation. You know, you bring up an interesting point. You know, there was a documentary done recently uh on the looking at the whole to catch a predator takedown experience and you know there it's one director's point of view, right? And there's some good things, some productive things out of it and I cooperated with it. There's some things that were left out that I thought were important. But one of the critical aspects, the aspects that were critical of my investigations was that in one case there was an 18-year-old who was caught trying to hook up with a 15-year-old and he was criminally prosecuted, but the case was sent to diversion >> and the the the question they interviewed the kid's mother who got busted and she was critical of us and our investigation and claimed that he couldn't go to his high school graduation because of the embarrassment of getting caught. Well, there's a big age difference between 18 and 15, right? 18 and 15, first of all, is not 30 and 33. >> That's right. >> Right. When you were 18, did you date any 15 year olds? No. >> Of course not. >> That wouldn't be right. You know, and it was illegal. It was against the law. So, do I feel sorry that this 18-year-old couldn't go to his graduation? I feel sorry for a 13, 14, or 15 year old kid who could have been sexually exploited by the 18-year-old >> who then wasn't in mentally healthy shape to go to their high school graduation. So, I I don't have a lot of sympathy in these cases. I mean, to me, it's pretty common sense. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Now, what about this other one? This is another one I think about a lot. Are you familiar with the Josh Giddy situation? >> Yes. So >> that's different, >> right? >> And I Here's why it's different. >> Here's a young man was 21 when he was >> he was 19. >> He was 19. Okay. So he's 19 and he's in a club. >> Mhm. >> Right. And he's approached by a girl >> in the club. >> In the club who, if I have the story straight, says that she's the same age. >> I think she said she was 21. >> 21. >> Yeah. I I think so. Check me on that in the comments. But yes, >> so what is his due diligence to suggest that a woman who is had to show ID to get into the club >> Mhm. >> was lying to him >> intent you're talking about? >> Yeah. I don't think he was setting out to be a predator. >> Agreed. I think he was a 19-year-old guy who met a very attractive young woman and just assumed that she was of the appropriate age >> because of where this happened. Now, >> and she looked it too, Chris. Like, >> I saw the pictures. I saw the pictures. Now, I I I'm not one to defend predatory activity, but I don't think in this case, and you look at the totality of the case. Young guy playing in the NBA. You shouldn't get a break for that because he's a athlete celebrity, >> right? But he should also have some consideration for being targeted because of that. >> And this wasn't a situation where he was and again my understanding is that it wasn't a situation where he was plying somebody with drinks to take advantage of them. >> If anybody was taking advantage, >> yeah, there was there's a different >> power dynamic. To me, it's about the power dynamic. >> Who had power in that situation? >> Yes. >> And I think it was equal in that situation. And so I think he got a stern talking to and there were a number of conversations and I think he'll be checking ID going forward. >> I think so as well. But that was like point being that was the rare one where I agree with you. You >> I think so. And trust me, you're not going to get any sympathy out of me. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> That's why I asked. So I have to you know you but you bear these things in mind and you have to put yourself in that situation as a young fellow and you you know you put as a the father of you know two boys you you put yourself in that situation and you preach to them growing up that you know no means no and you show respect for women and you know if it's a gray area you know it was meant to be it'll meant to be a different day but don't ever >> you know assume things And uh and it's important to tell young men that and boys that. But to me that situation again without having reported on or talked to anybody intimately involved in it was exactly that. >> Yeah. >> There are one thing I've learned though in this studio unfortunately is that there are you know we obviously have our own problems here in America to be very clear but you know there's there are cultures around the world that openly normalize this. And I and I'll I'll explain. Let me give an exact example. I'm sure you're familiar with it, but I have had Navy Seals sitting in that chair, Army Rangers sitting in that chair, Delta Force guys sitting in that chair, all who served years in Afghanistan, and they all tell the same stories. >> Oh, yeah. And and you'll hear the same stories from people at Quantico where they host uh Afghans to study military techniques. um you know these are people who are supposed to be um fighting on our team but this is a different culture in some respects and and you know it's it's I mean watch the movie Kiterunner >> what do you do about I mean >> well I think you you certainly you can't condone it um do you go to war over it to try to change another culture I I don't know that that's the answer I think you you don't condone it you don't uh look the other way but you don't um you know again you hope that their society changes. I guess you use diplomacy and carrot and stick and you know if it's if it's something that outrageous you say look you're only getting American money if you change the policy right >> or you encourage people to change their behavior and you know economic inducements work and so you you try to work that way >> but it's you know we have to worry about our world first and then >> change culture overseas or you change the culture overseas that affects our world and and I think these You know, you do these in terms of what's most critical, what's most pressing, and what's most dangerous to us at this moment. >> Yeah. Now, there's moments, I say this all the time, but there's moments in here in different podcasts that just stick with you, right, where you're talking to someone and some point comes up and the way they say something to me and the gravity of the point is just like, whoa. And that's wired into me. And I had one of those with uh Andy Bamante last year who used to be in CIA, definitely still is. But I was asking him about some of the worst he ever saw. >> Mhm. >> Out in the field. And he talked about, you know, meeting with some general or something in the middle of Africa who had all these 8-year-old, 9-year-old, 10-year-old child soldiers around him who they were plying up on drugs who they were sexually abusing, all these awful things. And then the soldiers who were watching over them had been the same child soldiers that had that happen to them. And it was just this giant cycle. Yeah. >> And I said to him, I said, "Andy, how do you fix something like that?" And there was a long pause. And he sat back and he was just like, "This is going to sound so bad." I'm like, "Go ahead. Say it." He goes, "You just got to kill them all. You just got to get a reset." >> Well, sadly, sadly, he's probably right. It's so ingrained into the civilization that that's the way it works. That's the way it worked for them. It's the way it worked for their their brothers and their parents. And you know, I I've been to Sierra Leone and I've been to that part of the world and and you know, we didn't see um you know, wars or battles or what Andy described, but we saw the remnants of it. We did a story on al-Qaeda using uh blood diamonds to fund terrorism. And we talked to the guys who were doing the investigation and we went back to the places where it all happened and and um you know, got a realistic dose of it. But what he described was exactly, you know, you could see some of this in the movie Blood Diamond. I mean, it's very realistic and that's the the clash of of u of culture that we have and uh it's very tribal there and in other parts of the world. Afghanistan is the same way. I mean, it's it's waring tribes and factions and this goes back generations before America was America. So, how do you change that? And it's very difficult to change. And there's a certain truth to what he says. We don't do that because we are a civilized society. We try to handle it the way we should handle it. But, you know, it's ingrained. There's no question. >> Now that we see though that the problem that like normal folk out here, we're seeing that the problem is wider than we ever even imagined though. Here at home, it's we're talking about other places, but here at home, we got problems like this. It's like >> at least we're arresting people. At least we're being proactive and and doing these kinds of investigations. At least we're creating content like this podcast where we're discussing it and and we're, you know, we're not just treating it as a, you know, dirty little secret, right? You know, we're exposing it. We're discussing it. And again, my mantra, we're creating awareness in a discussion that perhaps didn't exist before. So, you know, if somebody listens to this or watches the Dangerous Games documentary on on Roblox or watches any of the Takedown investigations, you know, they they they get something out of it. Yeah, I get, look, these predator investigations, it's a collision. >> It's a collision where somebody gets caught committing a felony in real time. They get interrogated by me andor law enforcement. They get cuffed, arrested, sometimes tased or maed, and off they go. And there are darkly humorous elements of it that I lean into because I've learned over 20ome years that it gets people's attention. And again, if it gets people's attention, then we're learning something from it. >> Right? >> Now, I agree with you. There there's work that gets done like what you do, like what law enforcement does where justice is served. And I don't want to understate that because it does happen and we see people whether it be the doctors or the lawyers or the truckers or whoever it is doing these things face justice and we should continue to see that. But you strike me as as an optimist as well on on the >> you have to be you can't you couldn't you couldn't do this kind of reporting and not be an optimist. You couldn't do this kind of reporting without being able to escape it and ski down a mountain or to cook a meal and forget about it for a minute or watch something silly on television or, you know, hang out with your kids or your wife or your, you know, your family >> and and you have to have that skill. You must have it because, you know, you can't spend your life even as a young fellow in the studio. You got to go out and do something, right? You got to cleanse your mind and you got to refresh yourself and and develop a a recharge of energy to go out and do it a different day. I mean, we travel a lot to go do these stories. I have for many years. I've got 4 million miles on American Airlines and two and two million on Delta. I mean, I I've seen the road. I've been around the world. >> And it can it can it can it can >> it can wear you down if you're not fit >> both mentally and physically. But you got to be up to the challenge. You know, some of this stuff people say, "How do you travel and do all that stuff?" Getting an airplane is like shaving to me. It's just something you do before you go to work and that's it. And you can't get bogged down. You know, again, there were way worse places to be stranded than, you know, Delray Beach, Florida. >> But we were there for that charity, Child Rescue Coalition. And, you know, it was down there a couple days. Now, there was stuff I needed to be doing back here. And I had to cram a lot of stuff and including this fine podcast with you into into fewer days than I had to to do a lot of stuff. But you can't you gotta get over it. You you can't get so bogged down in the process that you don't see the bigger picture and the importance of what it is that you do. And also you got to realize that sometimes you have to change the way you do it. Just because we did it this way for years and years, that doesn't mean it we're going to do it this way forever. We have to adapt. Look at what you know from from the first investigation, Beth Page, Long Island, we do our predator investigations a whole different way. Yes. >> But guess what? Everybody's getting prosecuted. >> 99% successfully prosecuted. Now, sometimes that may result in a plea agreement and probation and sometimes it may mean going to prison for life >> depending on the factors involved. But it's happening and but we've had to adapt to the changing, you know, technology platforms, uh, to the the changes in the law to our ability to set up cameras in different places. I mean, all all kinds of factors involved, but you can't just say, "Okay, well, we've already we've done it this way since 2004. This is the way we're all going to do it." That's not how life works. >> You've adapted mediums, styles, things you're going after. It's great. >> All kinds of things. >> And you're right. I I I too am an optimist, and I'm glad you are. I I suspected that, and I I think you make an amazing point, and that's important. The reason I'm bringing it up at this moment though is because I understand people out there listening right now who are feeling really cynical and let down. Not because Chris Hansen has failed. Chris Hansen's done his job, but like we see powerful people. You talk about people going to jail. None of those people. >> You wonder why people believe in all these elitist conspiracy theories. It's because look at what has come out in the Epstein files. >> That's right. >> Look at this. You know, and still less Wetchner claims that he didn't know that Epstein was doing anything wrong. Didn't didn't become aware of any crimes until he decided to cut him loose. You know, is that possible? >> You you are not, as you said, you're not technically like a trained psychiatrist and you're not a trained body language expert, but I would argue there's probably not a lot of people in the world from a body language and psychiatry expert of like predators like you who has the experience on the ground. I can read their faces when I see them. I know exactly what they're going to say. >> Right. So, when you see Les Wexner's 5hour deposition and you're watching him huddle in, move his arm, blink rate at >> about what his attorney says. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to have him kill you. >> Yeah. >> What are your thoughts? Well, I I I mean, I don't have any smoking gun, but why does a man a billionaire, a titan of industry, sign over a power of attorney to Jeffrey Epstein? Now, that was his MMO. If I'm going to handle your finances, I need power of attorney. I need to be able to react quickly to markets. I need to move money around. I need this stuff. He would say that to other clients. But I mean, if you if you believe the accounts, and I have no reason to disbelieve this particular one, I mean I mean Wexter essentially signed over that upper east side New York home. >> That's right. >> The biggest single residential piece of property on the island of Manhattan. >> That's right. $10. >> Why do you do that? >> Why? >> Well, cuz the guy's got something over your head. Or you want him quiet or happy or he's making you so much money you don't care. Let's take let's take the least objectionable reason. He's making you so much money you don't care. He's giving you tax advice. He's got shelters. All right. But you know what happens when he's a convicted sex offender in 2008? Is that when he cut off contact or did it happen after that? >> That's what he alleges he cut off. >> That's what he alleges. But even 20 20ome years before that, like you said, power of attorney, handing over the biggest >> biggest townhouse in New York City. >> And you and what you don't know that he's got, you know, got girls and he's abusing his his relationship with you to run around with these models and recruit people. And there's a lot of suicides involved here. >> Yes. that French modeling agent, he was into this up to his eyeballs. Epstein >> un alive himself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't think I believe that. But >> yeah, I don't know. I I mean, I tend to be a little less conspiratorial. I mean, I understand why people are asking questions and I did see some documents today, you know, where uh prosecutors refer to it as the Epstein murder, not the Epstein suicide. So, was that a a Freudian slip or is it more? But, you know, when you when you drip drip drip these these uh you know, revelations and documents, it's every day there's going to be something different. >> Yeah. And it also like I would imagine I think you were even citing some examples. Correct me if I'm wrong, but like you've seen >> the things that happen like in the modeling industry in particularly and how these young women and actually girls like 15 16 quite literally get traffic to men through the people that run these places which is not to say automatically therefore less less Wexner is guilty because he has Victoria's Secret but it's certainly quite a coincidence now. >> Yeah. But I mean, if if you're going to be a guy who goes after to try to exploit those people, where are you going to go? You're going to go where there's a healthy supply of them. >> Yeah. >> And stareyed girls who want to be the next Victoria's Secret Supermodel and have a career after that are very vulnerable. >> Absolutely. It's like when you pray that that's that's some of the lowest stuff when you pray on someone's ultimate fears or dreams, which are the opposites technically of each other. you are. And that's what all these guys do regardless of who they are or like when they're grooming them. That's exactly what they do to these kids. It's like, God, I was I was still totally stupid when I was 25. And I just imagine like what if I was in the wrong place, wrong time when I was like 14, you know? >> Well, everybody's got close calls. I mean, you know, I grew up pretty f I was on television at 20 years old, so, you know, I was a reporter. Mhm. >> I mean, we still had a lot of fun. You run around and, you know, do what young men do, but, you know, I had a a pretty solid sense of responsibility pretty early on, but you're right. I mean, 13, 14 years old, you think you're a grown man, but you're not. And you're vulnerable. And I think, you know, a woman from Eastern Europe who's very attractive and has a shot is told by a French modeling agent that you're the next big thing, but this is kind of how it works. You need to meet my friend Jeffrey. I mean, it's >> crazy. >> And these guys are doing this all day long. >> It's crazy. Do things like >> remember South Park made the episode Nambla? >> Yeah. >> North American Manboy Love Association or something like that? Things like that really exist? >> Oh, Nambla. Absolutely. It exists. >> Absolutely. It has been around a long time. And the FBI had pretty much extinguished Namba big investigations until the advent of the internet and suddenly they could communicate without being detected. But all that's a real thing. That's not conspiracy pizza stuff. Wow. That's what and and that's again this is where I try to stay an optimist on society but >> oh it's hard >> I mean they used to have cruises you know they they get a yacht >> and they they have this stuff they they they FBI did stings on this stuff you know before everything went digital and they'd put out pamphlets and you know uh back page ads on newspapers and and uh they put these things together and they'd sting these guys, but they they'd put them out of business almost and then suddenly they're back at it with the internet. >> What are the most important things? Like we were talking about the roadblock example, which is online, but you know, if you had one, two, or three just main pieces of advice for parents to be on the lookout for their kids safety when it comes to predators, what would those be? I would say that you need to be aware of what they're doing online. >> You need to look over their shoulder. They should not have a device in their bedroom at night. And you have to start at the very moment they have access to the internet, whatever age that is, by telling them there are grown-ups on the internet who like to trick kids. Kids do not like to be tricked. Mhm. >> And that'll get their attention. And then you have to ratchet this up >> incrementally as they get older and more curious >> and they want to show their independence. >> And you got to say, look, you know, I heard this today. I heard that today. I remember very early on in the predator investigations, we had a a dozen middle schoolers on risers and um I said, "Show of hands. How many of you been approached by an adult and made you feel uncomfortable? Nine out of 12. >> How many of you told your kids? Two. They're little parents. Yeah, they're parents. >> And um I said, "Why?" "Well, we're afraid they're going to take the computer away, the internet away." And that was the most telling thing I've ever heard. I you know, I try to be careful. I always say this, but a common phrase people will throw around is if I were blank, then I would blank about something very serious. And I don't know that you fully know that about most things until you actually experience those things. But one thing I think about being a future parent that I feel very strongly about is something you kind of cited earlier, which is a more in an even more stereotypical example, which is like if my kid were at a party when they're 16 or 17, they were a little drunk and something was wrong, I'll come get you >> and I'm not going to you're not punished. And there's that trust. >> I've had that speech when my kids were in that age group, >> right? I think you make an amazing point that there needs to be parents should feel comfortable without, you know, pushing that boundary too far, if you know what I mean, like having repeat offenses and like that. But I think parents should be comfortable to be able to have that conversation about online stuff, too, without >> Right. It's Look, stuff's going to happen. Yeah. Right. This is the >> nature of the internet. Stuff will if you're on the internet long enough, something will happen. That's right. >> But the reason I'm going to allow you to stay on the internet is that if something does happen, you come to me and tell me about it. I'm not going to beat you up. We'll get a solution together. >> Um, you know, I I took my dad's advice many years ago. You know, your job is not to be your kid's friend. It's to be their father. >> And so, you're going to make decisions that are unpopular. They're going to stomp off to their room. They're going to call you names. They're going to be an argument. bad language is going to be used, but you got to stay calm. The whole the trick to being a parent is to get your kids to do what you know is right for them, what you want them to do, and make them think it's their idea. That's the That's the That's the deal. That's all it is. >> Yeah. >> That's all it is. And if you can do that, you win. >> It's good advice. >> Yeah. What were your favorite stories you worked on before you became Chris Hansen to catch a predator? You know, there's so many. And back in those days, we were allowed to travel internationally and do things, but probably the most impactful story I think was when we teamed with an NGO and went to Cambodia uh with the International Justice Mission, IGM, and they were investigating Americans going over to Cambodia and other places to commit uh sex tourism with underage kids. and we infiltrated a brothel in Sve about 11 kilometers outside of uh Pampen and our producer and our our hidden camera guys posed a sex tourist. We went in there and set up a party and we had local authorities as part of it and um we put this together and and and we rescued about 37 girls. >> Wow. And in the course of of the investigation, we caught an American doctor over there who I later confronted in Guam in a parking structure where he was he with travel as an anesthesiologist, right? So, you know, we pick him off and we caught him like we had him on camera talking about he thought he was on a tourism show and he was talking about how he likes to go over there. And then we had him on hidden camera talking about the young girls and and then I lowered the boom on him in a parking garage in Guam and just >> tore him from year to year. >> Did he get prosecuted? >> He did not, shockingly. But in that story, two important things happened. Well, a lot of important things happened, but two detectives in Vancouver, Canada were watching the story when it aired the first time on Dayline, and they recognized the background in the brothel, and they said, "You know what?" And they call each other, watching it separately, and they said, "This looks like the background on the videotape we took from the guy we arrested for beating up a sex worker. Follow this." Now, they look at it. They go over to that brothel. They match it. And it turns out the guy they arrested in Vancouver, British Columbia, for beating up a sex worker had or also been to that same brothel in SVAC. And they arrested him and he took a seven-year plea for for sex tourism. And then we went back four years later to check on the girls who were rescued. And eight or 10 of them were in a bridge school and I mean it looked like a million bucks in the school dresses. They're going to school every day and I'm sure there was long-term damage. And I, you know, interviewed them and of course there was a translator involved. My Camir is not, you know, fluent. And so we finish up the interview and they they said, "Well, when are you leaving going back to America?" I said, "Well, tomorrow or a day after tomorrow." And they said, "Can we go to the airport with you to say goodbye?" I said, "Absolutely. If it's fine with the people here at the British school, it's fine by me." So now they, you know, do their minds really understand who I am or what I did or all they know there is they're in a better place and I had this tall American had something to do with it, right? I'm not looking to take credit for it, but if you know they want to go to the airport, if the school folks say it's okay, it's okay with me. And the guy pulls me aside. He said, "Well, it has more to do with the fact that the only dairy queen in the entire country of Cambodia is at the airport." I said, "No ego problems there." Send them NBC can pay for, you know, eight banana splits on. So, we go to And then we're filming this, right? Because it's part of the deal. We going back and how are these girls doing? We're eating the banana splits and we're communicating as best as we can and we go time to say goodbye and we're doing the whole, you know, Asian goodbye thing and honoring each other and and and that uh the Ponapen airport has a twotory glass wall when you go in to check in and then go through security. And so they follow me and and they've got their hand I say goodbye. Goodbye. Said goodbye 100 times, right? So now they've got their hands against the glass, you know, weeping. And I go back and put my hands against the glass. So I'm weeping, the cameraman who's been with me in the most horrible places in the world is weeping. The producer is weeping and everybody's weeping and we leave and we we filmed all that and we put it in the in the story. It was quite powerful. But you know those are things things like that you know and there's you know there's some fun stories along the way too. I mean there's some crazy things that happen. I mean after the Oklahoma City bombing we were on the trail of Tim McVey and Terry Nichols and John Doe number two. We thought that was a thing. And and there was a mysterious uh figure named Andreas Stmmeer who was associated with all these people and uh he was on the gun show circuit and he had gone back to Berlin and everybody wanted to find this guy and I got a tip and I I went in to talk to our executive producer at the time and I said, "Look, I can't be certain, but I think I know where this guy is." He said, "Well, what do you what are the odds?" I said, "I think it's 60% we find him." He goes, "You got four days." So producer and I get on a plane. We fly to Berlin now. We got four days in Germany to find this guy. On day one, we find him at 9:15 in the morning. Gives us a 30-minute interview. We get video of him on the subway in Berlin, and we're done. So now we got three days to go screw around and carry on and drink beer in in Berlin. And we had a ball. But um you know, it just it's an amazing it's an amazing business to be in. And it's it's been an amazing time to experience it all. you know, I I I've gotten to go to places I never dreamed of going and expose things I never knew existed and to, you know, tell that story and to work with amazing people at NBC and uh in between and now, you know, and to have you situation where we have True Blue where we own the content, we own the distribution of the content, we have a, you know, a bit of a relationship with Fox News and the podcasts are on the Fox platform and so it's life is great. you know, we I've got it's it's very busy, but it's very fulfilling and uh you know, I drive a great deal of satisfaction and and to have some control over the editorial part of it, too. And and the business part of it, you know, and I'm not, you know, I'm not the CFO. I'm not the CEO. I'm partner, part owner. I'm the brand. >> I'm the brand. >> But that's my job. I don't need to do the rest of the stuff. I've got people who do that for me. So, I get to be the brand and and go out and do the stuff. >> So, it's it's good. It's very fulfilling. when you were doing cases like that though where you're tracking like ongoing investigations into crime which you obviously you still do today but I'm saying you know now you work directly with law enforcement when you do this stuff but back then >> how did you handle a situation where you as a journalist were actually getting somewhere in the investigation and getting to like a key component of it and then having to make the choice as to whether or not to loop in law enforcement on it or have you go hit it first? Well, I I think you make those decisions on a case- by case basis, but you you have to put justice and a criminal prosecution ahead of, you know, there are ways to do it simultaneously. I mean, there's always a way to figure it out so that you get what you need and law enforcement gets what it needs. I I've never been in a situation where I couldn't figure it out. Now, I've been in a situation where unknowingly I've been ahead of law enforcement. >> What was that? It's happened many times, but you you either slow down and let them catch up or you help them with what you found, >> you know, so a bad guy goes to jail. But, you know, there you know, this is the stuff they don't teach in journalism school. This is the stuff you have to figure out, you know, in the process of it. Um, you know, I remember being a reporter in Detroit and the police chief was on trial for corruption. And I remember an investigator telling me that somebody had come over to do some work on his kitchen and and a tinfoil brick tinfoil covered brick of money fell out of the ceiling and uh chief said, "Oh, he found my poker money." Well, it was money that was stolen from the department. And so I'm in the elevator with the the assistant US attorney who's prosecuting the case before the trial and I tell the story and he kind of looks weird and he just kind of shows off after the trial they convict him and he said I got to tell you something. He goes I did not know about that story until you told me in the elevator. I said I said you're you're kidding me. He says well no we figured it out. I would have found out but I but so here I am as a reporter. Yeah, >> knowing about the the uh cash of cash in the kitchen of the former police chief of the city of Detroit and you know the the guy who's prosecuting the case wasn't aware of it. So, you know, you figure stuff out along the way. >> Some poor desk jockey got chewed the out right after that for sure. Were you with NBC working out of New York when 9/11 happened? >> Yes, I was with NBC. I I left Detroit to go to NBC in 1993. So, but you were here in New York. >> Well, I wasn't in New York. I was actually in Toronto >> on an unrelated story and um I was watching it was actually was a story on a plane that made a dead stick landing on the island of Terara. This A320 or A321 Airbus was flying from Toronto to Portugal to Lisbon and there was a mechanical issue and it was bleeding fuel and the pilots didn't figure it out and they just thought they had an imbalance. So they opened the the valve to put fuel in the other tank and it all bled out and they ran out of fuel at 30,000 ft. >> And so this pilot was able to circle the plane and they have a device that pops out that generates power. He's able to circle the plane and navigate and without power for 30 minutes make a dead stick landing at an air force base, a joint use air force base on the island of Trera >> which is in the Azors. So, we're in the middle of doing that story, which is the kind of story we do occasionally for Dayine, and we done the interviews and and some of the guys went out for a few pops at night, and I stayed in for whatever reason, and was up early, went for a run, and all dressed up, ready to go. And and I'm watching the television monitor in the hotel room, and there's smoke coming out of one of the towers of the World Trade Center. And I called the office. I said, "Dave, what's going on?" We think a pilot hit a heart attack and crashed into the building and standby, but we think you're just going to go on to Colorado to work on the next story. I said, "All right, well, let me know." >> Second tower gets hit and I call back and said, "I'm on my way." So, I roused everybody up. We get to the airport and they're canceling flights. I said, "Just get a rental car to the producer. Just go get a Herz car." >> And we're in Toronto. So, I said, "Fine." I said, "We're headed south. Let me know what's going on." So, we're monitoring this the whole way. I'm calling sources and try to get information. And we get to the the bridge to go into Buffalo. And I said, "Look, we can either go to Boston or we can go to New York." He said, "We got a ton of people in New York. Boston's where two of the planes came from. You know, we need information from there. So, go there." So, we went there because that's where Muhammad Ata and his crew got on the the plane from Portland, Maine, then changed planes into Boston. in Boston at the time had a notoriously >> shoddy security setup >> and they exploited it in every possible way. So we reported from Boston for two days and jumped on a train reported from New York and Washington for the for the rest of it >> but uh very involved in it. I mean it was >> go to ground zero at the time. >> I did not at the time because it was you there were people down there and they didn't need any more people down there. I mean we were doing stories on the big picture stuff. There's no reason for me to be there. We had, you know, other reporters were there dayto-day. You know, you could go up to the roof at 30 Rock and do your stand up and see it right in the background still smoking and uh but we would, you know, do you know the money trail and how all this other stuff worked and, you know, backgrounds and all the hijackers and how they solved the case. you know, we're doing long form versions for Dline, for the network really, because it was in situations like that, you know, Dline served as the the long form producers of the stories. >> It's it's amazing that all these years later with something that we all watched happen live as well. Yeah, it was it was this >> unforgett I was a very little kid, but I remember it vividly. It's this unforgettable image. Well, my kids were living in Connecticut at the time and my kids could go down to the end of the point and look >> 38 miles across and see the smoke come up and everybody knew somebody who was killed. >> That's right. But it's amazing that all these years later we still don't have so many answers about it and most importantly like the families who lost people still even through court haven't been able to get answers on things. >> Well, I think you know we did a lot of reporting on that. You know, what did the CIA know? What was shared with the FBI? Why didn't we know that these guys met in Koala Lumpur and then similar guys showed up in meetings in San Diego taking flight lessons and who was the 20th hijacker and you know those are all the stories we did in the aftermath of it and and we did some very good reporting there but um you know it's a different world now we have different cooperation different level of intelligence and I hope we don't back slide into where we were >> right >> now you got this two-part documentary coming out on Roblox >> yes >> so it's coming out bi-weekly. Is that right? >> It's so Yes. So, the first uh episode, which is an hour and a very compelling hour if I do say so myself. The editors did a phenomenal job on it. I can't take credit for that, but I did all the interviews. >> That is out now on True Blue. Watch true.com for details. That's my streaming crime network. >> And then in two weeks time, the second part, >> right when this is coming, >> so probably right about the time this airs, part two will be out. And that's another hour. And then my prediction is that so much will come out of both of them that that'll probably generate a third hour. >> Great. Okay. Because that was going to be my next question. I would imagine this is an investigation you're going to continue. >> Yeah, we're we're staying on it. I mean, look, this is how I I feel about this investigation. This Roblox story is like To Catch a Predator 2026. >> Same DNA, different battlefield. That's a good way to put it. >> Yeah. >> Would you be open to it? Let's say these two come out and obviously it's like, wow, Chris Hansen really went in on Roblox and there's righteous public anger from it. Would you be open to now if Roblox reapproaches? >> Absolutely. I told and I told him in the emails back and forth. I said, uh, you know, they clearly thought that this was going to be an unfair project for them because of who we interviewed. They don't like Schlepp. they don't like the attorney general in Louisiana. And I said, "Well, the best way to deal with that is to come on and talk." And they said, "No, we're not going to do that." So, I said, "If you change your mind, I will accommodate." If they call me tomorrow and said, "We want to be interviewed. I'll be on a plane to Sat Town." >> All right. Good. Give them a call. Let's go. >> Yeah. They They know that. >> Well, now they definitely know it. We got her on the record. But this has been awesome, man. >> I appreciate it, Julian. It was it was fantastic and and great experience and I appreciate the long form conversation and appreciate everything you do. >> Well, I'd love to do it again at some point. Continue work. All right. >> Thanks so much. >> Everybody else, make sure you go check out Chris's documentary on Road on Roblox. That's going to be linked down below. We'll also link your podcast and everything as well. Make sure we have everything in there. But that said, give us a thought. Get back to me. Peace. What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave, as well as leaving a like on the video. It's a huge, huge help. You can join my Patreon via the link in the description, and you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below. See you for the next episode.

SPONSORS: 1) AMENTARA: Go to https://www.amentara.com/go/JULIAN and use code JD22 for 22% off your first order. Big Shoutout & thank you to @shaunattwoodOFFICIAL & his Producer Shane for making this one happen! (****TIMESTAMPS in Description Below) ~ Chris Hansen is an Emmy-Award winning journalist who has locked up p*dos on TV for over 2 decades. JOIN PATREON FOR EARLY UNCENSORED EPISODE RELEASES: https://www.patreon.com/JulianDorey CLIPPERS DISCORD: https://discord.gg/8QmWEKJ3BT CHRIS' LINKS: Roblox DOC: https://www.watchtrublu.com/dangerous-games-a-chris-hansen-investigation YT 1: https://www.youtube.com/@UCgKTJAN-IrVyX-jIJ5INEhA YT 2: https://www.youtube.com/@UC1EWFQy8iPvh9Cfdil0F1JA IG: https://www.instagram.com/officialchrishansen/ X: https://x.com/chrishansen FOLLOW JULIAN DOREY IG: https://www.instagram.com/julianddorey/ X: https://x.com/juliandorey JULIAN YT CHANNELS - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Clips YT: https://www.youtube.com/@juliandoreyclips - SUBSCRIBE to Julian Dorey Daily YT: https://www.youtube.com/@JulianDoreyDaily - SUBSCRIBE to Best of JDP: https://www.youtube.com/@bestofJDP LISTEN to Julian Dorey Podcast Spotify ▶ https://open.spotify.com/show/5skaSpDzq94Kh16so3c0uz Apple ▶ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trendifier-with-julian-dorey/id1531416289 ****TIMESTAMPS**** 0:00 - Chris Hansen gets “Hansen’d,” Adrenaline, “To Catch a Predator” backstory 10:03 - Timing of Visit, 2 Preds at same time, Predators w/ guns 21:10 - Sick Fantasies override common sense, 3 Categories of P*dos, Wiring Brains 31:40 - Julian’s perspective, 41 Predators 1 House 35:23 - Epstein Files, Chris tried to STING Epstein 41:20 - Chris hunch on Epstein, Royal Family, Why Epstein unique 51:47 - Epstein’s Arrogance, Epstein Stem Cell Harvesting? 56:06 - Epstein “Jerky” Emails, Zorro Ranch, Masters of the Universe Sickness 1:05:43 - Percentage of P*dos who get caught, P*dophilia incurable 1:15:56 - TruBlu, Chris growing up in Detroit, Silence of the Lambs 1:27:33 - Getting away with Crime, Tech to take down predators 1:31:38 - Roblox, Exploitation on Roblox, Discord Corruption, 764 Cult Group, Schlep 1:37:11 - Roblox Uncooperative, Law & Roblox, Roblox to IRL abuse 1:46:43 - Gro*ming on Roblox, Parents responsibility 1:55:57 - Bad Stuff Happens, AG’s on Roblox now, Drawing the line 2:03:51 - To Catch a Predator Doc, Josh Giddey, Gross cultural P*dophilia around world 2:12:00 - Sierra Leone Aftermath, Tribalism, Elite Conspiracies, Les Wexner Epstein Deposition 2:22:06 - Preying on deepest fears & dreams, NAMBLA was real, Internet Safety 2:29:30 - Cambodia Rescue Story, Oklahoma City Bombing 2:35:07 - 3 million miles flown, Being ahead of law enforcement, Chris on 9/11 2:42:58 - Roblox Documentary OTHER JDP EPISODES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: - Episode 351 - Mike Yeagley: https://youtu.be/4nRKuPBFPDY - Episode 388 - John Kiriakou: https://youtu.be/vmDn8YzxVeQ CREDITS: - Host, Editor & Producer: Julian Dorey - COO, Producer & Editor: Alessi Allaman - https://www.youtube.com/@UCyLKzv5fKxGmVQg3cMJJzyQ - In-Studio Producer: Joey Deef - https://www.instagram.com/joeydeef/ Julian Dorey Podcast Episode 397 - Chris Hansen Music by Artlist.io